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Message no. 1
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:26:50 -0600 (CST)
One of my players continually grumps about a few of the handwaves put into
the magic system for game balance. (He's not a mage, it just bugs him.)

Anyhoo:

1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)

2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
hurt him with mana spells?

(Answers of: game balance are not acceptable. Get out your #2 pencils
and pass the blue books to the front of the class when done.)


Thanks


--
Rick Jones Clever of me to use my *spine* to break my fall like
rick@******.com that...
Meyrick@***.com --Darkwing Duck
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/
Message no. 2
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:34:15 -0600
>1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
>that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
>spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)


so all you have to do is jump in a dumpster with wheels and have someone
push you through the barrier spell eh?
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu
or
justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:15:56 -0700 (MST)
Rick Jones wrote:
|
| 1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
| that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
| spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)

um...I'm pretty sure cars don't have auras. With respect to barrier spells,
cars are affected by Physical barrier spells, but not Mana barrier spells.
(If it says in the rules that cars Do have auras, I would really like to
know where it says that.)

| 2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
| of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
| wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
| hurt him with mana spells?

I don't specifically know the rules on this one, and didn't bring my rules
to work, so I have to pass. I'm looking forward to the answer though :)

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer dbuehrer@****.org
The UnCover Company
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Customer Support: 1-800-787-7979
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946
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Message no. 4
From: Lars M Ericson <lericson@***.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:33:38 -0600
|

| 1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
| that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier

| spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)



>um...I'm pretty sure cars don't have auras. With respect to barrier spells,
>cars are affected by Physical barrier spells, but not Mana barrier spells.
>(If it says in the rules that cars Do have auras, I would really like to
>know where it says that.)

The key here is not whether the car is affected by a Mana barrier spell,
but whether the passengers inside are. If a vehicle does not have an aura,
then the passengers inside are not hidden by a larger, predominant aura of
the car. This means that a car passing through the barrier will keep going,
but the passengers will be squashed in their seats, or smashed out the back
window.
I think that not only do cars have auras, but all enclosed objects have
their own auras. This is why a powerbolt can be cast at a dumpster. If the
dumpster did not have an aura, then the mage could not attune his aura to the
dumpster's and send the powerbolt through astral space to the dumpster (which
is how combat spells are discibed in the Grimoire). So, not only do vehicles
have auras, but all objects have auras. This reasoning explains why people
aren't affected by a mana barrier spell while in a car and also agrres with
how magic works in general.

--
Lars M Ericson: Professional Vagabond <lericson@***.edu>
The Lor, The Law, The Lars <http://www.gac.edu/~lericson>;
Team Garotte, Founding Member
Registered Member of a Decadent Society

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one spark
of enjoyment that keeps you going.

QUOTE(s) OF THE WEEK:
"People scare easier when they're dying."
- Henry Fonda, _Once Upon a Time in the West_
--
Message no. 5
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:50:33 -0600 (CST)
On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, David Buehrer wrote:
> um...I'm pretty sure cars don't have auras. With respect to barrier spell=
s,
> cars are affected by Physical barrier spells, but not Mana barrier spells=
..
> (If it says in the rules that cars Do have auras, I would really like to
> know where it says that.)

Well, as far as I know, all objects have auras. The more processed/dead
an object is, the fainter.

In RBB (I think), it says that a rider on a cycle is affected by a mana
barrier, while someone in a closed vehicle isn't. This is probably so a
mana barrier can instantly turn a panzer pilot into a thin red paste with=

a 2000D crash(or whatever). If mana barriers go through sealed physical
places, it might be interesting to cast it through walls...

Chuck McKenzie ® kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu
Finger me for my PGP key http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/
UW-Madison « Madison, WI
Message no. 6
From: "Ingmar Krusch" <fastjack@******.et-inf.fho-emden.de>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:12:51 +0100 (MET)
Hi (I`m back, I`m back, I`m back .... :))))))))))))))))

<snip David sais that cars have no auras>
<snip Lars explains why cars and the like have to have auras>

You can argue whether cars have auras or not, but the Grimoire II says
that people inside a car are NOT affected by the mana barrier but a guy
on a bike would (p. 166 german ed).
I`m not sure what the book says but I would agree with Lars that every
object has an aura even though they are dead and liveless in astral space.

Salve
Ingmar

--
*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************
+---------------------------------------------+-------------------------------+

| eMAil : krusch@*******.fho-emden.de | ^-^ |
| : fastjack@******.et-inf.fho-emden.de | BEWARE of JUDGE =<o,o>= |
+---------------------------------------------+
""""" |
| "~" |
| " |
+-------------------------------+
Message no. 7
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:39:35 +0100
Rick Jones said on 1 Dec 95...

> 1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
> that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
> spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)

They have auras because _everything_ has an aura. A wall has an aura,
although it's passive and you can move right through it. So a car, being
usually as dead as most walls, also has an aura you can pass through.
Since magic generally works on the LOS principle, you can't hit someone
who's in a car because you can't see them (remember, car windows are
opaque in the 2050s). I think this is the rationale (sp?) behind allowing
cars to drive through Mana Barriers withou t the passengers being affected
by it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'd like to be immortal. But only or a while.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:27:12 -0500 (EST)
Klingon Name: Captain K'vort, Commander, DSF C7 "Victory"
MIME: We shoot them here.

From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
>so all you have to do is jump in a dumpster with wheels and have someone
>push you through the barrier spell eh?

If you were a player of mine I would probably make it work just for
coming up with the idea... ;) But then you're trapped in the barrier, right?

The problem is, how many people know exactly where a barrier spell is?

>>>>>>>> Nate
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| |
| I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. |
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Message no. 9
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 10:55:45 -0600
>If you were a player of mine I would probably make it work just for
>coming up with the idea... ;) But then you're trapped in the barrier, right?
>
>The problem is, how many people know exactly where a barrier spell is?


Well, I was thinking that the mage was inside the barrier spell protecting
himself, you kill the mage, then the spell it gone (:
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu
or
justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
Message no. 10
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:47:51 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Rick Jones wrote:

> 1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
> that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
> spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)

It's been said before, but I'll re-iterate it. *Everything* has
an aura. Since a car is recognized as an entire construct, a thing in
and of itself, it has a single, cohesive aura. That's why you can't
target specific parts of a car with a combat spell.
As to why you can "smoosh" people in a car that drives through a
mana barrier, it is because the barrier is never in contact with the
*person's* aura. The spell encounters that car's aura, says to itself,
"nope, not living" and lets it through. The spell can't look *through*
the car's aura, because its just a spell, and therefore not overly crafty.

> 2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
> of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
> wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
> hurt him with mana spells?

Why does it take only eight weeks to train a marine to be able to
kill people eight ways from sunday, and yet it takes a med-student
*years* to become a doctor capable of saving lives?
The human body is incredibly complex. Putting it together with
magic is a difficult thing. The presence of very complicated cyberware
is just more delicate stuff you have to work around, making the job more
difficult.
A manabolt, on the other hand, is only concerned with ripping
stuff apart. It doesn't give a rat's ass about complexity, as it is just
concerned with pumping astral energy into its target. It's not a
question of game balance, it's a question of the fact that it's harder to
heal than it is to harm.

Marc
Message no. 11
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 14:06 EST
>The problem is, how many people know exactly where a barrier spell is?
I thought barrier spells were all visible or is that just physical barrier?
---Sedah Drol
--
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
GC3.1
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Message no. 12
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:34:32 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Lars M Ericson wrote:

>
> |
>
> | 1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
> | that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
>
> | spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)
>
>
>
> >um...I'm pretty sure cars don't have auras. With respect to barrier spells,
> >cars are affected by Physical barrier spells, but not Mana barrier spells.
> >(If it says in the rules that cars Do have auras, I would really like to
> >know where it says that.)
>
> The key here is not whether the car is affected by a Mana barrier spell,
> but whether the passengers inside are. If a vehicle does not have an aura,
> then the passengers inside are not hidden by a larger, predominant aura of
> the car. This means that a car passing through the barrier will keep going,
> but the passengers will be squashed in their seats, or smashed out the back
> window.

Only if the magician who cast Mana barrier can see the passengers. Mana
barrier cannot effect people the mage cannot see. This is in the
"Vehicles, Weapons, and magic" section of SRII.(p108-109) While the rule
mentioned here does not state why Nick would have survived in a fully
enclosed car, the reason is that the barrier has no existance where the
mage cannot see. It is not a Damaging Manipulation (The only class of
spells that can effect what the mage cannot see, because those spells
actually create the element that does damage).
Message no. 13
From: TopCat <topcat@**.cencom.net>
Subject: Re:a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:30:45 -0600
Rick Jones said...

>2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
>of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
>wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
>hurt him with mana spells?

WooHoo!!! Another Mohican is born ;)

Ok, this was a thread brought up by me and some of the other samurai-minded
folk out there. Eventually it became a stalemate. Some people were deadset
that it should stay as is. Others (like me) think that it should be
difficult to cast any spell on them whatsoever. FASA compromised
(confusingly, but with little surprise) in the Cybertechnology book.
Cyberzombies (those with negative essence) impose target number penalties on
mages attempting to cast at them for ALL spells, not just mana or healing.

To all of this, I say... if it makes sense to you and your players, do it.
No reason to hurt the campaign over a rule that no-one wants around. If you
or yours don't like it, then don't change. It's as simple as that. Free
yourselves from the tyranny of rulebooks and have fun!

-- TopCat
Message no. 14
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 23:58:11 GMT
Hoi chummers!! After a rather long hiatus, I have returned. It is
good to be back. I hope you missed me. Anyway on to the message.

(By-the-by, in answering to this message, I have no intention of
resurfacing the magic(k) argument.)

>From out of the Shadows, Rick Jones wispered:


>1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
>that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
>spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)
>
First off, you must look at the overall view of magic in Shadowrun.
Accoriding to the game's worldview, the entire Earth is alive. This
is of course caused by a mish-mash of micro-organisms, insects, and
the like. Since the Earth has an aura itself, parts of the Earth have
and aura too. It is the same priniciple as background counts and the
ability to use a "dead" coponant to trace or affect someone or
something using ritual magic. The aura of the person or object has
left an imprint on the coponant, sort of like a fingerprint. Since
the coponants of a car or dumpster or whatever were originally from
the Earth, they would have that fingerprint of risidual aura left from
the Earth. The more Man processes that coponant, though, the weaker
the fingerprint. But since Man has yet to process Nature entirely
from anything He has created, that imprint is still there.


>2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
>of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
>wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
>hurt him with mana spells?

Another example of SR worldview. Remember the aura imprinting affects
_anything_ Man creates. That includes cyberware. The risidual aura
of the metal merges with that of the Cyber-goon, not really destroying
his original aura, but changing it. That is why we loose essance from
cyber-implants, the processed implants mix with and change our natural
aura, disrupting its natural pattern. But that is another
discussion. Since the original aura is not destroyed, it can still
act as a channel to send magic into the individual. If you were to
use a mana bolt _only_ on the metal in the man's body, it would not
work.

The reason why heal spells are harder to use is that it heals the mans
aura, transferring it to the body. Metal cannot heal (at least not
that we know) so its aura cannot facilitate the action of healing.
But metal can be damaged. Since the mana bolt damages the aura of the
individual, transferring it to the body, and since the implants do
merge with the aura of the person, effectivly making the metal part of
the person, the mana bolt will damage the individual. The main
difference in the two spells lie in what they were designed to do,
either heal or damage.

>
>(Answers of: game balance are not acceptable. Get out your #2 pencils
>and pass the blue books to the front of the class when done.)

Game balance has nothing to do with this question. GameBalance is the
last refuge of the mind that cannot logically or illogically
rationalize a concept.


It might be a little hard to follow, since I have not had to think
this hard in a while.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 15
From: pran r mukherjee <pran@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:49:24 -0500 (EST)
> Why does it take only eight weeks to train a marine to be able to
> kill people eight ways from sunday, and yet it takes a med-student
> *years* to become a doctor capable of saving lives?
> The human body is incredibly complex. Putting it together with
> magic is a difficult thing. The presence of very complicated cyberware
> is just more delicate stuff you have to work around, making the job more
> difficult.
> A manabolt, on the other hand, is only concerned with ripping
> stuff apart. It doesn't give a rat's ass about complexity, as it is just
> concerned with pumping astral energy into its target. It's not a
> question of game balance, it's a question of the fact that it's harder to
> heal than it is to harm.
>
> Marc

There's also the fact that your average permanent health spell (ie. heal,
treat) IS permanent only if it generally puts things back the way they
were meant to be. The problem is that cyberware/bioware is NOT meant to
be there, yet has been integrated into your aura (this, in my opinion is
just a kludged bit of handwaving on FASA's part, but there you have it),
so it blocks healing a bit. IMHO, it should also inhibit other permanent
health spells in the same way.
Message no. 16
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 20:53:48 -0600
>Only if the magician who cast Mana barrier can see the passengers. Mana
>barrier cannot effect people the mage cannot see. This is in the
>"Vehicles, Weapons, and magic" section of SRII.(p108-109) While the rule
>mentioned here does not state why Nick would have survived in a fully
>enclosed car, the reason is that the barrier has no existance where the
>mage cannot see. It is not a Damaging Manipulation (The only class of
>spells that can effect what the mage cannot see, because those spells
>actually create the element that does damage).


hmmmm, maybe i am wrong but i do not agree with you, i think the barriers
are where the barriers are. EX. if a mana barriar dome is surrounding a
mage another mage cannot just sneak up behind him and cast a spell right
through the barrier... it will stop the spell whether he sees it or not...

am I correct in this manner or not?
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu
or
justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
Message no. 17
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 21:01:26 -0600
At 05:55 PM 12/2/95 -0500, you wrote:
>Hoi chummers!! After a rather long hiatus, I have returned. It is
>good to be back. I hope you missed me. Anyway on to the message.
>
>(By-the-by, in answering to this message, I have no intention of
>resurfacing the magic(k) argument.)
>
>>From out of the Shadows, Rick Jones wispered:
>
>
>>1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
>>that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
>>spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)
>>
>First off, you must look at the overall view of magic in Shadowrun.
>Accoriding to the game's worldview, the entire Earth is alive. This
>is of course caused by a mish-mash of micro-organisms, insects, and
>the like. Since the Earth has an aura itself, parts of the Earth have
>and aura too. It is the same priniciple as background counts and the
>ability to use a "dead" coponant to trace or affect someone or
>something using ritual magic. The aura of the person or object has
>left an imprint on the coponant, sort of like a fingerprint. Since
>the coponants of a car or dumpster or whatever were originally from
>the Earth, they would have that fingerprint of risidual aura left from
>the Earth. The more Man processes that coponant, though, the weaker
>the fingerprint. But since Man has yet to process Nature entirely
>from anything He has created, that imprint is still there.
>
>
>>2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
>>of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
>>wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
>>hurt him with mana spells?
>
>Another example of SR worldview. Remember the aura imprinting affects
>_anything_ Man creates. That includes cyberware. The risidual aura
>of the metal merges with that of the Cyber-goon, not really destroying
>his original aura, but changing it. That is why we loose essance from
>cyber-implants, the processed implants mix with and change our natural
>aura, disrupting its natural pattern. But that is another
>discussion. Since the original aura is not destroyed, it can still
>act as a channel to send magic into the individual. If you were to
>use a mana bolt _only_ on the metal in the man's body, it would not
>work.
>
>The reason why heal spells are harder to use is that it heals the mans
>aura, transferring it to the body. Metal cannot heal (at least not
>that we know) so its aura cannot facilitate the action of healing.
>But metal can be damaged. Since the mana bolt damages the aura of the
>individual, transferring it to the body, and since the implants do
>merge with the aura of the person, effectivly making the metal part of
>the person, the mana bolt will damage the individual. The main
>difference in the two spells lie in what they were designed to do,
>either heal or damage.
>
>>
>>(Answers of: game balance are not acceptable. Get out your #2 pencils
>>and pass the blue books to the front of the class when done.)
>
>Game balance has nothing to do with this question. GameBalance is the
>last refuge of the mind that cannot logically or illogically
>rationalize a concept.
>
>
>It might be a little hard to follow, since I have not had to think
>this hard in a while.
>


wow good explanation, did you think of it on the fly or have you had to
discuss this before?
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu
or
justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
Message no. 18
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:36:12 +0000 (GMT)
<Snip>

> hmmmm, maybe i am wrong but i do not agree with you, i think the barriers
> are where the barriers are. EX. if a mana barriar dome is surrounding a
> mage another mage cannot just sneak up behind him and cast a spell right
> through the barrier... it will stop the spell whether he sees it or not...

I think barriers work differently to targeted spells. The mage can put up a
barrier (physical, mana, it doesn't matter) and leave it! He could even
spell lock it and leave. He doesn't NEED to know if anyone's trying to
penetrate the barrier because the barrier blocks EVERYTHING it was designed
to block. In the case of the car, the barrier detects a non-living object
and can't stop it. The auras inside are sealed away.
Even if the windows are transparent, they still pass through unhindered.

> am I correct in this manner or not?
> ******************************
> Justin Thomas
> "Farr"
> Email:
> thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
> or if that doesn't work
> Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu
> or
> justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
>
>


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 04:33:38 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Justin Thomas wispered:


>>
>>>1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said

>>First off, you must look at the overall view of magic in Shadowrun.

>>>2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive
ammounts

>>
>>Another example of SR worldview. Remember the aura imprinting affects

>>>
>>>(Answers of: game balance are not acceptable. Get out your #2 pencils

>>Game balance has nothing to do with this question. GameBalance is the

>wow good explanation, did you think of it on the fly or have you had to
>discuss this before?

Both actually. The wording was on the fly, but I have had to
"enlighten" players befor.


----------------------------------------------------
Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for friend.
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 20
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:10:35 +0000 (GMT)
On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Rick Jones wrote:

> 2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
> of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
> wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
> hurt him with mana spells?
Well, it could be said to come down to the fact that the cyberware makes
teh cyber samurai move away from his aura's original state. A heal spell
tries to get the body back to fit in with the original aura, but of
course the body itself no longer fits taht template. Sort of like trying
to fix a television with the technical instructions for a radio.

Mana spells work upon the aura, no matter how it diverges from the
physical body, any effects it creates are simply reflected in the
person's mind, or body (if physical damage) in those areas where the body
still resembles the aura -in otherwords a Manabolt won't make cracks
appear on teh cyber arm, instead all the damage will be focused upon teh
meat.

Well thats my hypothesis anyway.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 21
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:01:11 +0100 (MET)
On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Rick Jones wrote:

> 1> Why do cars have auras? (In my game, I tossed it out, and simply said
> that you can smoosh folks in cars by having them drive through a barrier
> spell, but if anyone has a good reason why they should, let me know.)

So they can be powerbolted. It wouldn't be much fun if you could only use
the power-bolt and -ball at living targets. i.e. if you powerball a room
full of goons, not only the goons get blown away, but the furniture too.


> 2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
> of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
> wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
> hurt him with mana spells?

When healing a character you are to restore that characters aural
wholeness, or some such, and you have very little to work on, therefore
it is harder. When blowing the goon away you only need a single point to
focus all your destructive energies. By that analogy, people with 0.0
essence should be immune, but i can't explain that, sorry.


----------------------------------------------------------
Raving lunatics howl at the moon. I just howl - The Madman
Email me at your leisure - Vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk
----------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk>
Subject: Re:a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:10:17 +0100 (MET)
On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, TopCat wrote:

> Rick Jones said...
>
> >2> (the biggie) Cyber-goon has an itty-bitty essence, due to massive ammounts
> >of metal in him. Naturally, it's harder to heal him. But cyber-goon
> >wonders, if it's so hard for magic to heal him, why isn't it harder to
> >hurt him with mana spells?
>
> WooHoo!!! Another Mohican is born ;)
>
> Ok, this was a thread brought up by me and some of the other samurai-minded
> folk out there. Eventually it became a stalemate. Some people were deadset
> that it should stay as is. Others (like me) think that it should be
> difficult to cast any spell on them whatsoever. FASA compromised
> (confusingly, but with little surprise) in the Cybertechnology book.
> Cyberzombies (those with negative essence) impose target number penalties on
> mages attempting to cast at them for ALL spells, not just mana or healing.
> yourselves from the tyranny of rulebooks and have fun!

In the Rifts game by palladium, they have a character class called 'borgs
which, ofcourse, is a cyborg. They are, if i remember correctly, very
resistant to magic, due to their lack physical body/aura thingy. This
goes for both beneficial and harmful spells. It makes sense though.


----------------------------------------------------------
Raving lunatics howl at the moon. I just howl - The Madman
Email me at your leisure - Vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk
----------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:05:43 +0000 (GMT)
>
> On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, TopCat wrote:
>
> >
> > Ok, this was a thread brought up by me and some of the other samurai-minded
> > folk out there. Eventually it became a stalemate. Some people were deadset
> > that it should stay as is. Others (like me) think that it should be
> > difficult to cast any spell on them whatsoever. FASA compromised
> > (confusingly, but with little surprise) in the Cybertechnology book.
> > Cyberzombies (those with negative essence) impose target number penalties on
> > mages attempting to cast at them for ALL spells, not just mana or healing.
> > yourselves from the tyranny of rulebooks and have fun!
>
> In the Rifts game by palladium, they have a character class called 'borgs
> which, ofcourse, is a cyborg. They are, if i remember correctly, very
> resistant to magic, due to their lack physical body/aura thingy. This
> goes for both beneficial and harmful spells. It makes sense though.

Hmmm. Borg are resistant to certain magics by getting a bonus to thier
saving throw. DAMAGING MAGICS still affect them normally (as it does ROBOTS
/ POWER ARMOUR / rocks / etc.)

> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Raving lunatics howl at the moon. I just howl - The Madman
> Email me at your leisure - Vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:37:20 +0100 (MET)
On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, A Halliwell wrote:

> > In the Rifts game by palladium, they have a character class called 'borgs
> > which, ofcourse, is a cyborg. They are, if i remember correctly, very
> > resistant to magic, due to their lack physical body/aura thingy. This
> > goes for both beneficial and harmful spells. It makes sense though.
>
> Hmmm. Borg are resistant to certain magics by getting a bonus to thier
> saving throw. DAMAGING MAGICS still affect them normally (as it does ROBOTS
> / POWER ARMOUR / rocks / etc.)

Oh, well, I stand corrected. DOes this mean that they are resistant to
mental type spells but can be affected the old fireball?

----------------------------------------------------------
Raving lunatics howl at the moon. I just howl - The Madman
Email me at your leisure - Vilstrup@*****.ihi.ku.dk
----------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.dreamscape.com>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:47:24 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Sebastian Vilstrup wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, A Halliwell wrote:
> > Hmmm. Borg are resistant to certain magics by getting a bonus to thier
> > saving throw. DAMAGING MAGICS still affect them normally (as it does ROBOTS
> > / POWER ARMOUR / rocks / etc.)
> Oh, well, I stand corrected. DOes this mean that they are resistant to
> mental type spells but can be affected the old fireball?


<nod> Pretty much, they're resistant to any non-damaging spell.
Speed of the Snail, Mind stuff, etc.

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 26
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:28:55 +0000 (GMT)
>
> On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, A Halliwell wrote:
>
> > > In the Rifts game by palladium, they have a character class called 'borgs
> > > which, ofcourse, is a cyborg. They are, if i remember correctly, very
> > > resistant to magic, due to their lack physical body/aura thingy. This
> > > goes for both beneficial and harmful spells. It makes sense though.
> >
> > Hmmm. Borg are resistant to certain magics by getting a bonus to thier
> > saving throw. DAMAGING MAGICS still affect them normally (as it does ROBOTS
> > / POWER ARMOUR / rocks / etc.)
>
> Oh, well, I stand corrected. DOes this mean that they are resistant to
> mental type spells but can be affected the old fireball?

Mainly mental, but there are a few manipulation type spells as well. I've
not had a proper look at the rules for that game in a while....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re:a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 01:43 EST
>
>In the Rifts game by palladium, they have a character class called 'borgs
>which, ofcourse, is a cyborg. They are, if i remember correctly, very
>resistant to magic, due to their lack physical body/aura thingy. This
>goes for both beneficial and harmful spells. It makes sense though.
Actually Borgs are only +3 to resist magic puts them at a 12 SVM, unless
they are NGR borgs then they are really resistant. Sorry for being off topic.
---Sedah Drol
--
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
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Message no. 28
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 01:52 EST
>> Oh, well, I stand corrected. DOes this mean that they are resistant to
>> mental type spells but can be affected the old fireball?
>
>Mainly mental, but there are a few manipulation type spells as well. I've
>not had a proper look at the rules for that game in a while....
Check out page 48 of the main Rifts book.
---Sedah Drol
--
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 29
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re:a good handwave for a bothersome player
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:59:10 +0100
Sebastian Vilstrup said on 11 Dec 95...

> In the Rifts game by palladium, they have a character class called 'borgs
> which, ofcourse, is a cyborg. They are, if i remember correctly, very
> resistant to magic, due to their lack physical body/aura thingy. This
> goes for both beneficial and harmful spells. It makes sense though.

Though I've never playe Rifts, I'd say it makes sense within the game's
background. In Shadowrun, the background says that such borgs can be hurt
by magic just as easily as the next person (or car or whatever).
Not that this should stop anyone from making a house rule saying that the
heavily-cybered should be more difficult to kill with magic.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Quotes don't mean shit
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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