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Message no. 1
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: A hard question..
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 19:10:49 -0700
How long is one complex action in SRII?
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question..
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 22:24:50 -0400
>>>>> "Mercenary" == Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
writes:

Mercenary> How long is one complex action in SRII?

At least one combat action, possibly more, with the limitation that you may
perform only one complex action per combat phase, regardless of how many
actions you have during that phase. A complex action can, and often does,
take more time than a 3-5 second combat phase.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | No Zooanoids were injured in the making
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | of this message.
Message no. 3
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question..
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 19:28:08 -0700
What I am saying is how do I converta weapon that fires 15 rounds per
second into SRII modes of fire?
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question..
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 22:38:11 -0400
>>>>> "Mercenary" == Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
writes:

Mercenary> What I am saying is how do I converta weapon that fires 15
Mercenary> rounds per second into SRII modes of fire?

For all intent and purpose, you don't (I'm ignoring FoF right now). Modern
weapons can empty a 30-50 round magazine in one combat phase when firing at
cyclic (maximum rate of fire). Your real limitation is recoil, which is why
the M-16A2 doesn't have a full-auto mode, only semi-automatic and burst
fire (the USMC has a special provision to modify the A2's action, really
just bending a piece of wire) to allow full-auto because they train to use
it effectively whereas the US Army doesn't), for example.

So don't bother trying to limit RoF because it's mostly irrelevant, and
recoil is going to limit you, anyway.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "...and I didn't even need pants!"
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Dilbert [Scott Adams]
Message no. 5
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: A hard question..
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 19:59:52 -0700
It can be

On Sat, 9 Jul 1994, Mercenary X wrote:

> How long is one complex action in SRII?
>
as long as 10 phases and as short as 3 phases.

Ivy
Message no. 6
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: A hard question..
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:04:52 -0700
15 rounds per second is called Full Auto in SRII.

On Sat, 9 Jul 1994, Mercenary X wrote:

> What I am saying is how do I converta weapon that fires 15 rounds per
> second into SRII modes of fire?
>
Ivy
Message no. 7
From: Max deLaubenfels <madness@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 09:31:09 -0700
Ivy, Rat

Could you explain what you mean by "combat phase"? I am under the
impression that the Combat >Turn< (which would include all combat phases
in which everyone who has an initiative score between 1 and 40 can act)
lasts from 3 to 5 seconds, depending on the reaction score of the person
acting. I'm pretty sure this is written down somewhere, because a friend
and I debated this once and he pulled out one of the supplements (like
Fields of Fire) and read it to me. I've always been a little skeptical
though, about the time duration of 'turns' vs. 'phases'.

Thanks!
-Max
Message no. 8
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 12:48:07 -0400
A combat action occours at your initiative count. A combat phase is the
total of all actions over a 3 to 5 second period. These are terms used in
the rulebook. I do not recall if the term "combat turn" is used.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | On the seventh day the Lord said: I'm
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | pooped. You build the theme park.
Message no. 9
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 17:57:15 +0100
In reply to Stainless Steel Rat .....

> A combat action occours at your initiative count. A combat phase is the
> total of all actions over a 3 to 5 second period. These are terms used in
> the rulebook. I do not recall if the term "combat turn" is used.

Yeah FASA should really sort this out once and for all. When do you use 3 secs,
when 5 and when something inbetween. You also start to wonder why a normal
person can't fire more than 2 shots every 3 seconds from a semi-automatic
weapon. I'm no weapons expert, all I've ever fired is air rifles and air
pistols, but if I can get two aimed shots off in 3 secs with an air pistol that
has a slider <don't know the technical term> to load each pellet, then I'm sure
that if I had a semi auto I'd be able to get off up to 6 shots in 3 seconds.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 13:11:42 -0400
>>>>> "Powerhouse" == The Powerhouse
<P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK> writes:

Powerhouse> Yeah FASA should really sort this out once and for all. When
Powerhouse> do you use 3 secs, when 5 and when something inbetween.

Always. A combat phase is between 3 to 5 seconds long. You're not counting
off seconds; it's an abstraction.

Powerhouse> You also start to wonder why a normal person can't fire more
Powerhouse> than 2 shots every 3 seconds from a semi-automatic weapon.

You can. But that's called shooting wild. Shadowrun is making the minor
assumption that you're actually attempting to keep your weapon pointed at
your target.

Powerhouse> I'm no weapons expert, all I've ever fired is air rifles and
Powerhouse> air pistols,

Big difference. The recoil from a .38 or .45 is significantly greater than
an airgun. The weight is also greater, as is the amount of force needed to
squeeze the trigger (usually).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Stay away from them. They're dangerously
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | volatile, and have a nasty tendency to
this space intentionally left blank | _not_ stay crispy in milk.
Message no. 11
From: Yan Periard <colwolf@******.VIRCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 15:22:19 +0100
The range is also inportant in this, at short range you could easily put
up to 6 shots in the same area... But when the range increase the level
of recoil is important so that a petite mouvement is increase by the
range (Simples angles, and Geometry).

It is true that someone good can shoot a lot in 3-5 sec. but
FASA made something that was playable while staying enough realistic...

Pleasure
Message no. 12
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 15:58:31 CDT
I once knew a Vietnam vet who was trained as a sniper. One of the drills they
frequently underwent was to drop prone from a full run and place three shots
within a grouping no larger than the diameter of a quarter, with their rifle.

Granted, this is heresay, but I've seen this guy shoot and he's pretty
impressive. How's this ability compare to your average 'runner

-Blade
Message no. 13
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 17:36:58 -0500
Uhh, in how much time was this supposed to happen?
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 20:38:08 -0400
>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Norrell
<norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU> writes:

[...]
Jeff> Granted, this is heresay, but I've seen this guy shoot and he's
Jeff> pretty impressive. How's this ability compare to your average
Jeff> 'runner

Sounds about right. Then again, in my book there's no such thing as an
"average Shadowrunner," by definition.

Anyway, to reiterate a point, the guys at FASA no almost NOTHING about
firearms or fire combat. So yeah, their mechanics are a bit fucked in the
head. Deal.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Don't anybody try this at home. I'm a
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | licensed doctor an' a trained psychotic.
this space intentionally left blank | --Ron Post
Message no. 15
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 23:51:04 -0400
On Mon, 11 Jul 1994, Jeff Norrell wrote:

> I once knew a Vietnam vet who was trained as a sniper. One of the drills they
> frequently underwent was to drop prone from a full run and place three shots
> within a grouping no larger than the diameter of a quarter, with their rifle.
>
> Granted, this is heresay, but I've seen this guy shoot and he's pretty
> impressive. How's this ability compare to your average 'runner
>
Abilities would have to include high numbers in the following:
Firearms/Sniper Rifles/<specific weapon>
Athletics/Running/<something custom>

The <something custom> specialization would probably be called Run
& Drop, or something along those lines -- not common enough for FASA to
need to include it in the books, but clearly what the person had been
trained to do effectively.
To further show military training, I'd suggest Military Theory,
possibly with a concentration in Maneuvers.
In SR, it would also help to have a Smartlink II (from FOF),
Boosted Reflexes, and perhaps some other things as well.

J.D. Falk
<jdfalk@****.com>
Message no. 16
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 06:07:38 -0700
On Mon, 11 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> A combat action occours at your initiative count. A combat phase is the
> total of all actions over a 3 to 5 second period. These are terms used in
> the rulebook. I do not recall if the term "combat turn" is used.

Actually, A Combat Turn is 3 to 5 seconds, a phase is each count during a
Combat Turn (Say that the highest Initiative in a particular Combat Turn
is 35, there would be 35 Phases in that Combat Turn. Each person's
Action(s) happen on thier Initiative, then 10 Phases later, etc) SRII,
pg.79.

Ivy
Message no. 17
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: A hard question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 09:46:23 CDT
Speaking of smartlinks and augmented systems... I saw a show last night in the
'Scientific American Frontiers` series. All in all a good show. They were
considering the augmentation of normal humans as well as those with limited
abilities. Included in the show was a system which allowed a paraplegic to walk.

The system was still research driven but still pretty impressive. Sheathed blades
are bound to be next.

Lastly, there was a section on controlling machines using the mind. The creator
of this technology (originated at an Air Force research base) is able to
control his sailboat using nothing moire than thought processes. By monitoring
brain activity and boosting the signal about 20k times, he could control a servo
motor which was driving the helm. Pretty impressive. The first rigger...

-Blade

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