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From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 10:40:54 +1000

Message no. 1 I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
description is?

Thanks,

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
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From:	Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 01:54:55 -0400

Message no. 2 NightRain wrote:
>
> I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
> called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
> weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
> air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
> when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
> listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
> description is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> NightRain.

Don't recall off the top of my head, but it would probably turn up in
Awakenings or the GRimoire 2nd ed.

--Jett

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 16:01:03 +1000

Message no. 3 Jessica Grota writes:
>NightRain wrote:
>>
>> I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
>> called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
>> weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
>> air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
>> when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
>> listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
>> description is?
>
>Don't recall off the top of my head, but it would probably turn up in
>Awakenings or the GRimoire 2nd ed.

Sorry, Jett, it'd be earlier than that.

<Respected Elder mode>
This was before your time, of course, lass, but in a Respected SR Module
beginning with H there was an air elemental who had to leave a van just
before it became airtight, due to the confinement weakness.

The weakness was described in the original BBB, so I'm pretty sure it would
be in the current BBB. If I don't see it by tomorrow, I'll write it up or
give a page reference.
</Respected Elder mode>

To answer NightRain, air elementals are disrupted if they are placed in an
airtight container. If they go astral, they are still disrupted unless they
bug out before the container becomes airtight.

And for the munchkin who has everything (don't they all?), I present the Gas
Barrier spell. Drain Target is increased by two over Bullet Barrier. The
barrier represents a normal Barrier spell, with the exception that the
Barrier is airtight. Anyone placed in it will eventually asphyxiate. If cast
on or around an Air Elemental, the Elemental is instantly disrupted.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 02:13:47 -0400

Message no. 4 Once upon a time, NightRain wrote;

>I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
>called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
>weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
>air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
>when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
>listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
>description is?

"An air spirit may be confined by airtight seals in containers of
remarkably small size; Vulnerability (Earth)."

Notice that confined is not capitalized to signify that it is a
special weakness. The confinement is nothing more than what is written.
Once it is confined then it can no longer use its powers. Although I
would suppose it could be Commanded to return to the Astral and then
Commanded to Manifest again outside its confinement so I really can't
give it much significance as a weakness.
The disruption you are referring to is its Vulnerability which in an
Air Spirit's case is Earth. That has nothing to do to its confinement
restriction which is a separate weakness.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 02:28:23 -0400

Message no. 5 Once upon a time, Robert Watkins wrote;

>Sorry, Jett, it'd be earlier than that.
>
><Respected Elder mode>
>This was before your time, of course, lass, but in a Respected SR Module
>beginning with H there was an air elemental who had to leave a van just
>before it became airtight, due to the confinement weakness.
>
>The weakness was described in the original BBB, so I'm pretty sure it would
>be in the current BBB. If I don't see it by tomorrow, I'll write it up or
>give a page reference.
></Respected Elder mode>

First Edition says the same thing as Second but I found the
Harlequin passage.

"The van is about to become an airtight container. If she stays
inside, she will be disrupted: banished from the physical world for
weeks."

How annoying. The BBB should have a better description of this. B>[#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 11:39:47 +0100

Message no. 6 NightRain said on 10:40/18 May 98...

> I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
> called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
> weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
> air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
> when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
> listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
> description is?

SRII page 224, in the description of the elemental spirits, it's mentioned
that air elementals can "be confided by airtight seals in containers of
remarkably small size" as one of its weaknesses. It doesn't say they take
damage from it, though in PAoE the critter stats at the back give
"Confinement" as a weakness. I think that's a shorthand way of saying the
text I quoted from SRII. The Grimoire also doesn't mention this
Confinement weakness, so my guess is that it's not really a
disadvantageous weakness, except that the spirit won't like it when forced
to sit in a small gas bottle.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Professional cynic, but my heart's not in it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 09:26:42 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 5/18/98 1:04:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> And for the munchkin who has everything (don't they all?), I present the Gas
> Barrier spell. Drain Target is increased by two over Bullet Barrier. The
> barrier represents a normal Barrier spell, with the exception that the
> Barrier is airtight. Anyone placed in it will eventually asphyxiate. If
cast
> on or around an Air Elemental, the Elemental is instantly disrupted.
>
Ah, that is all nice and wondeful Robert except that those munchkins with
everything must be really loving you, because you didn't present them with
drain codes, target numbers or anything, therefore if you have the spell (even
at force 1), then it simply must work all the time, without failure. ;p

On a more serious note, the spell that Robert is describing, has anyone come
around with this? We've had a variation of it here, not for the Air Elemental
vulnerability, but for the Vampires in Mist Form and the Knock Out Gasses that
always bothered us.

We just "upped" the drain for a "Barrier" spell by one level, to
represent the
ability to fully effect a given "Elemental Effect" completely. I think that
would make the spell a [(F/2)+2D] based upon that presumption.

-K

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 09:32:01 EDT

Message no. 8 In a message dated 5/18/98 1:16:00 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> "An air spirit may be confined by airtight seals in containers of
> remarkably small size; Vulnerability (Earth)."
>
> Notice that confined is not capitalized to signify that it is a
> special weakness. The confinement is nothing more than what is written.
> Once it is confined then it can no longer use its powers. Although I
> would suppose it could be Commanded to return to the Astral and then
> Commanded to Manifest again outside its confinement so I really can't
> give it much significance as a weakness.
> The disruption you are referring to is its Vulnerability which in an
> Air Spirit's case is Earth. That has nothing to do to its confinement
> restriction which is a separate weakness.
>
Interesting, after rereading the BBB (2nd Ed), Mc23 is correct here. I -do-
remember the confinement at one time being a true "Vulnerability" back in
First Ed though, as in it would cause disruption.

Using this analogy, IMO, a seal would have to have a rating equal to or
greater than the Air Elemental's Force in order to truly contain it, and thus
cause the Confinement Weakness to work completely.

-K

From:	roun <roun@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 10:23:48 PDT

Message no. 9 ----------
| NightRain said on 10:40/18 May 98...
|
| > I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
| > called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
| > weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
| > air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
| > when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
| > listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
| > description is?
|

and gurth said,

| SRII page 224, in the description of the elemental spirits, it's mentioned
| that air elementals can "be confided by airtight seals in containers of
| remarkably small size" as one of its weaknesses. It doesn't say they take
| damage from it, though in PAoE the critter stats at the back give
| "Confinement" as a weakness. I think that's a shorthand way of saying the
| text I quoted from SRII. The Grimoire also doesn't mention this
| Confinement weakness, so my guess is that it's not really a
| disadvantageous weakness, except that the spirit won't like it when forced
| to sit in a small gas bottle.
|

maybe the weakness of confinement is just that no matter if the airtight
container is steel or glass (no matter whether the air elemental is strong
enough to break that substance or not), as long as it is airtight, the air
elemental cannot break out of that container or go astral and escape. so
it is a weakness, but does not destroy it.

any thoughts??

roun
aka dave
roun@***.net

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 20:48:28 +0100

Message no. 10 roun said on 10:23/18 May 98...

> maybe the weakness of confinement is just that no matter if the airtight
> container is steel or glass (no matter whether the air elemental is strong
> enough to break that substance or not), as long as it is airtight, the air
> elemental cannot break out of that container or go astral and escape. so
> it is a weakness, but does not destroy it.

Yes, that's one of the few explanations that would make sense. Sort of
like claustrophobia for elemental ;) After all, when taken BTB, like
someone said you could just order the spirit to go astral, and manifest
outside the container. That doesn't make it much of a weakness IMHO; in
fact it could be useful -- put the spirit into a small, airtight container
and smuggle it in somewhere (okay, not that I can see immediately where
this would be useful, but it can be done).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Professional cynic, but my heart's not in it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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From:	Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 22:04:32 +0000

Message no. 11 NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU> asked

> I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
> called Confinement. Now I know that somewhere I have read that this
> weakness means that they are disrupted or something when placed in an
> air tight container or building or whatever. The thing is though that
> when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
> listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
> description is?
I found it in Harlequin...
<Quote> Weakness (Extreme) Confinement by airtight seal. Suffers
disruption if confined. That is, it is driven off the physical plane
for about a month. Vulnerability (Earth)</Quote>
Hope that helps

--Raven
Laugh, the end is near ...
Frank Sinatra
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G(++) e>++++ h--(---) !r z?
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From:	Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 16:07:59 -0400

Message no. 12 Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> >NightRain wrote:
> >>
> >> I have a question concerning Air Elementals. They have a weakness
> >> called Confinement. The thing is though that
> >> when I went to look up some more details I could not find the weakness
> >> listed in 2nd Ed, PAONA or PAOE. So can someone tell me where the
> >> description is?
> >
> >Don't recall off the top of my head, but it would probably turn up in
> >Awakenings or the GRimoire 2nd ed.
>
> Sorry, Jett, it'd be earlier than that.
>
> <Respected Elder mode>
> This was before your time, of course, lass, but in a Respected SR Module
> beginning with H there was an air elemental who had to leave a van just
> before it became airtight, due to the confinement weakness.
>
> The weakness was described in the original BBB, so I'm pretty sure it would
> be in the current BBB. If I don't see it by tomorrow, I'll write it up or
> give a page reference.
> </Respected Elder mode>

Ah. I stand corrected, O Great and Venerated Old One (hehe). However,
I'm sure I recall having seen it at least mentioned in either the Grimmy
or Awakenings, so at least give me credit for remembering that much!

--Jett

From:	roun <roun@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: air elemental confinement
Date:	Mon, 18 May 1998 12:07:17 PDT

Message no. 13 accidentally deleted your reply gurth but

as to what you replied about this topic...confining an air elemental (one
which you captured, not summoned) in a jar could be useful as a magical
hand grenade if you toss it into a group of enemies and the jar is glass!!!
hehehe...don't think this would actually work, but hey, it's an idea.

roun@***.net

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: air elemental confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 07:57:23 -0600

Message no. 14 roun wrote:
/
/ accidentally deleted your reply gurth but
/
/ as to what you replied about this topic...confining an air elemental (one
/ which you captured, not summoned) in a jar could be useful as a magical
/ hand grenade if you toss it into a group of enemies and the jar is glass!!!
/ hehehe...don't think this would actually work, but hey, it's an idea.

What's stopping the the elemental from returning to astral space to
escape the jar?

-David
--
"Never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
For you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: air elemental confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 11:06:36 EDT

Message no. 15 In a message dated 5/19/98 8:58:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> What's stopping the the elemental from returning to astral space to
> escape the jar?
>
The rules of the game itself...

-K

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 11:23:58 -0400

Message no. 16 Ereskanti wrote:
>In a message dated 5/18/98 1:04:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>robert.watkins@******.COM writes:
>
>> And for the munchkin who has everything (don't they all?), I present the
>>Gas
>> Barrier spell. Drain Target is increased by two over Bullet Barrier. The
>> barrier represents a normal Barrier spell, with the exception that the
>> Barrier is airtight. Anyone placed in it will eventually asphyxiate. If
>cast
>> on or around an Air Elemental, the Elemental is instantly disrupted.
>>
>Ah, that is all nice and wondeful Robert except that those munchkins with
>everything must be really loving you, because you didn't present them with
>drain codes, target numbers or anything, therefore if you have the spell
>(even
>at force 1), then it simply must work all the time, without failure. ;p

Uh, he said that the drain code was the same as Bullet Barrier, but
with a +2 to the DT. Since nothing ever said how strong the "airtight
seal" had to be, I'd say that successfully casting a force 1 spell
would work...

>On a more serious note, the spell that Robert is describing, has anyone come
>around with this? We've had a variation of it here, not for the Air
>Elemental
>vulnerability, but for the Vampires in Mist Form and the Knock Out Gasses
>that
>always bothered us.
>
>We just "upped" the drain for a "Barrier" spell by one level, to
represent
>the
>ability to fully effect a given "Elemental Effect" completely. I think that
>would make the spell a [(F/2)+2D] based upon that presumption.

Well, I wouldn't say that it's an elemental effect. It affects
elementals, but that's something completely different.

James Ojaste

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 16:05:16 EDT

Message no. 17 In a message dated 5/19/98 10:20:36 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> Well, I wouldn't say that it's an elemental effect. It affects
> elementals, but that's something completely different.
>
> James Ojaste
>
We used the "Elemental Effect" as a way of modifying the Barrier spell as it
currently stands. As in "gives the barrier full effects against elemental and
elemental-like effects of this nature.

-K

From:	roun <roun@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: air elemental confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 13:40:43 PDT

Message no. 18 | roun wrote:
| /
| / accidentally deleted your reply gurth but
| /
| / as to what you replied about this topic...confining an air elemental
(one
| / which you captured, not summoned) in a jar could be useful as a magical
| / hand grenade if you toss it into a group of enemies and the jar is
glass!!!
| / hehehe...don't think this would actually work, but hey, it's an idea.
|
| What's stopping the the elemental from returning to astral space to
| escape the jar?
|
| -David

in my earlier post i posited a rule about the weakness of airtight
containers being that the air elemental cannot use any powers or go
astral....but u probably deleted it.

dave
roun@***.net

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: air elemental confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 15:04:42 -0600

Message no. 19 roun wrote:
/
/ | roun wrote:
/ | /
/ | / accidentally deleted your reply gurth but
/ | /
/ | / as to what you replied about this topic...confining an air elemental
/ (one
/ | / which you captured, not summoned) in a jar could be useful as a magical
/ | / hand grenade if you toss it into a group of enemies and the jar is
/ glass!!!
/ | / hehehe...don't think this would actually work, but hey, it's an idea.
/ |
/ | What's stopping the the elemental from returning to astral space to
/ | escape the jar?
/ |
/ | -David
/
/ in my earlier post i posited a rule about the weakness of airtight
/ containers being that the air elemental cannot use any powers or go
/ astral....but u probably deleted it.

Yep. Me and my mailer haven't been getting along well lately. Thanks for
the response :)

-David
--
"Never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
For you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	SThanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: air elemental confinement
Date:	Tue, 19 May 1998 17:56:12 -0400

Message no. 20 >> What's stopping the the elemental from returning to astral space to
>> escape the jar?
>>
>The rules of the game itself...
>

And the spiritual nature of the elemental. It's against it's nature to be
in this sealed container, so its a lot like having a harsh phobia. One
could say the spirit is paralyzed with fear. That is, if they can feel
fear...dunno.

Thanatos

From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Air Elemental Confinement
Date:	Thu, 21 May 1998 12:00:23 +1000

Message no. 21 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>>>>>>text I quoted from SRII. The Grimoire also doesn't mention this
Confinement weakness, so my guess is that it's not really a
disadvantageous weakness, except that the spirit won't like it when
forced
to sit in a small gas bottle.<<<<<<

Am I the only one thinking Genie? A free Air Elemental with the
wealth power that is trapped in an Air Tight bottle. Could be
interesting to use.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

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