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From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:41:41 EDT

Message no. 1 In a message dated 6/16/1999 8:39:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> A really troubling thing would be if Deus lures Psychotrope in, and
> activates an EM pulse moments before zooming out via the satlinks,
> effectively killed Psychotrope and assuming control of the Otaku.

Actually, no, Deus has a hardware restriction, Psychotrope does not.

> As Wintermute reminds us, "One God can look like another."

And K reminds Wintermut that the look of God is defined by the viewer, not
the God....

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:56:19 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 6/16/99 10:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

<< > A really troubling thing would be if Deus lures Psychotrope in, and
> activates an EM pulse moments before zooming out via the satlinks,
> effectively killed Psychotrope and assuming control of the Otaku.

Actually, no, Deus has a hardware restriction, Psychotrope does not. >>

I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could only make
Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why can't he
leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?

Thanks,
Twist

From:	Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:23:14 -0400

Message no. 3 > I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could only make
> Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why can't he
> leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?

Color me stupid, but what's SCIRE stand for?

Bai Shen

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:27:49 EDT

Message no. 4 In a message dated 6/16/99 3:25:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
baishen@**********.com writes:

<< Color me stupid, but what's SCIRE stand for? >>

Self-Contained Industrial-Residential Enclave. It was the Shutdown book's
name for the Arcology.

-Twist

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:22:21 EDT

Message no. 5 In a message dated 6/16/1999 1:58:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.COM writes:
[potential RA:S spoiler space]

>
> I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could only make
> Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why can't he
> leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?

Deus gets his abilities from the advanced/powerful processing abilities of
the SCIRE computer system. If he "uproots" himself (think of the
"Tree"
image that is RA:S and is mentioned in Technobabel) from the SCIRE, his power
level falters immensely.

Additionally, as a reminder, Deus "children" don't have their
powers/abilities in a matrix outside the SCIRE system, unless they are part
of the Otaku that joined his side prior to the Shutdown.

-K

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:32:11 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 6/16/99 4:26:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

SPOILER

<< Deus gets his abilities from the advanced/powerful processing abilities of
the SCIRE computer system. If he "uproots" himself (think of the
"Tree"
image that is RA:S and is mentioned in Technobabel) from the SCIRE, his
power
level falters immensely. >>

But would this really keep him from leaving if it meant the death of his
hated rival? VR2.0 mentioned how AIs might have the ability to create UV
hosts on their own, weaved together from bits of data and seconds of
processing power, existing everywhere and nowhere in the same instant.

Yet who can ever say for sure. Mulvihill hints now and again that
the program known as Psychotrope doesn't actually create Otaku, and is not
the Deep Resonance. Afterall, higher mysteries are unknowable to mere
mortals, the stuff of dragons and whatever walks between the dark stars in
the heavens....Why, to know such mysteries, one would have to....read the
next novel. <sigh>

-Twist

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:56:39 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 6/16/99 4:26:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could only
> make
> > Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why can't
he
>
> > leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?
>
> Deus gets his abilities from the advanced/powerful processing abilities of
> the SCIRE computer system. If he "uproots" himself (think of the
"Tree"
> image that is RA:S and is mentioned in Technobabel) from the SCIRE, his
> power
> level falters immensely.
>
> Additionally, as a reminder, Deus "children" don't have their
> powers/abilities in a matrix outside the SCIRE system, unless they are
part
> of the Otaku that joined his side prior to the Shutdown.

Actually, after Morgan escaped, they specifically tailored Deus (before he
was Deus :-) so that his program could not go free. They did not want to lose
another AI ("thats the thrid one this week, someone close the fragging door
already")
He was created to remain hardwired to teh SCIRE system, however, I would
not doubt him creating a copy, or something to thatr effect, so that he can
live on after the Arcology goes up in a nice explosion :-)

From:	arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:34:34 +0200

Message no. 8 > -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Twist0059@***.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)

> I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could
> only make
> Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why can't he
> leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?

RA:S says on page XX(can't find it right now:( ) that the DEUS AI bound to
certain parts of
it's hardware, therefore it cannot leave the arc...

arclight

From:	grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:18:41 -0400

Message no. 9 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/16/1999 1:58:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> Twist0059@***.COM writes:
> [potential RA:S spoiler space]
>
> >
> > I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could only make
> > Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why can't he
> > leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?
>
> Deus gets his abilities from the advanced/powerful processing abilities of
> the SCIRE computer system. If he "uproots" himself (think of the
"Tree"
> image that is RA:S and is mentioned in Technobabel) from the SCIRE, his power
> level falters immensely.

What's to stop himself from creating a new home node with a copy of
himself that doesn't have those "restrictions?" KInda like cloning
himself, and then edit the code of the clone.

>
> Additionally, as a reminder, Deus "children" don't have their
> powers/abilities in a matrix outside the SCIRE system, unless they are part
> of the Otaku that joined his side prior to the Shutdown.
>
> -K

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia
Datastore 8 - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/1673/

From:	runnerpaul@***.com runnerpaul@***.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:52:38 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 10 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:18 PM 6/14/99 -0400, grahamdrew wrote:
>> [potential RA:S spoiler space]

>> > I thought that Deus' only hardware restriction was that it could

>only make
>> > Otaku that had power inside of the SCIRE. If Deus is an AI, why

>can't he
>> > leave the Arc? Did I miss something in Shutdown?
>>
>> Deus gets his abilities from the advanced/powerful processing
>abilities of
>> the SCIRE computer system. If he "uproots" himself (think of the
>"Tree"
>> image that is RA:S and is mentioned in Technobabel) from the SCIRE,

>his power
>> level falters immensely.
>
>What's to stop himself from creating a new home node with a copy of
>himself that doesn't have those "restrictions?" KInda like cloning
>himself, and then edit the code of the clone.

He couldn't create such a copy of himself within the confines of the
SCIRE. To quote Dr. Huang from RA:S "The AEP requires a tremendous
amount of processing power. Running a separate copy of the program
would bring the entire Renraku network to a standstill." (RA:S, p. 25)

Also, the AEP/Deus was not designed to be cross-platform, it was
specifically written to run on Renraku hardware and software. Even if
Deus could find another collection of computer hosts comparable in
power to the SCIRE, they would either have to all be hosts built and
programmed by Renraku, or Deus would have to recompile his entire
codebase for the other architectures (something that might very well
spoil the "x-factor" that allows Deus AI status in the first place).
If I had to guess where Deus would copy himself to, I would bet on the
Stratus Arcology in Kuala Lumpur. It uses much of the same Renraku
hardware and software as the SCIRE (according to RA:S, p.17).

The only question is whether or not Stratus would have enough
computers to support Deus. This would depend on whether or not the
computing industry is a large function of the Stratus Arcology.
Stratus does not appear on the list of select hosts with a vast enough
computing power to allow an AI to become aware that is listed in the
back of RA:S, but one, the list is not all inclusive, and two, an AI
might require less processing power to sustain awareness than it takes
for the AI to first achieve awareness.

Would it even be possible for Deus to circumvent the "hardware
requirement" that keeps him tied to the SCIRE? It all comes down to
whether Deus's dependence on SCIRE hardware is simply because SCIRE is
huge single-site concentration of computer hardware, or whether
instead, the hardware requirement is because Renraku's Artificial
Intelligence Project was using a specialized mainframe with a
proprietary architecture, and no other collection of hosts, no mater
how much computing horsepower they have, would be able to run Deus
without such a mainframe.

Either explanation for the hardware dependence is plausible, and could
be supported by the R:AS text. Personally, I prefer the first
explanation, that it's merely because SCIRE is such a concentration of
computing power in a single building, with portions of AEP code
running on each and every host in the SCIRE system. Dr. Huang says
that "External computer systems simply wouldn't have the horsepower to
run the program." This might be true of any one single host, but a
collection of hosts as might be found at the Stratus Arcology just
might have the processing power needed.

In fact, it might be conceivable that Stratus is running an earlier
version of the AEP, minus the secret AI code that Renraku's Artificial
Intelligence Project added in from Morgan. Renraku certainly wouldn't
be in a position to give out sensitive R&D material like that, but The
AEP program was up and running (albeit in a less sophisticated form)
before they ever thought to incorporate the SK software and the code
from Morgan. This pre-AI version of the AEP could very well be
licensed out to other arcologies, such as Stratus. We already know
Stratus has much the same Renraku hardware and software as SCIRE, and
we know that Renraku has sold other software, such as the "Heightened
InteEleGence�" expert system elevator software to Stratus.

Even if Deus is limited to a custom mainframe found only in SCIRE,
surely Deus has access to the AI Project's files, and not only has the
design for the mainframe, but could easily manufacture another one in
one of SCIRE's many automated manufacturing facilities, or possibly
hack Stratus' version of the AEP, and have them manufacture it. Either
that, or Deus could try to code out dependence on that mainframe when
he copies himself to Stratus (however, this could be a risk to Deus's
x-factor, so it's risky).

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:00:59 EDT

Message no. 11 In a message dated 6/16/1999 4:00:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.COM writes:

>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> Actually, after Morgan escaped, they specifically tailored Deus (before he
> was Deus :-) so that his program could not go free. They did not want to
> lose
> another AI ("thats the thrid one this week, someone close the fragging
door
> already")
> He was created to remain hardwired to teh SCIRE system, however, I would
> not doubt him creating a copy, or something to thatr effect, so that he
can
> live on after the Arcology goes up in a nice explosion :-)

Something that we have considered here in the HHH games is what would be
necessary for Deus to "leave?" We've considered something akin to a
"Child"
of special calibre. Perhaps there is a special Otaku out there that is as
yet undiscovered. In our games, we call these "Second Generation"...Otaku
children that are born of Otaku. We've gone far into the concept actually.

Anyone out there know of the idea of a Vulcan child from the novels? We've
gone into stuff similar to that, with in this case, the autonomic nervous
system being the communications link. A special "Utility" is required in
this case....

-K

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:10:21 EDT

Message no. 12 In a message dated 6/16/1999 7:54:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
grahamdrew@*********.com writes:

>
> What's to stop himself from creating a new home node with a copy of
> himself that doesn't have those "restrictions?" KInda like cloning
> himself, and then edit the code of the clone.

That is actually a strange thing. In theory, nothing. In function, perhaps
something entirely different. The SCIRE is quite probably the most powerful
computer system, short of the *ENTIRE* PCC Network on planet earth in 2060
time. Deus is the hardware control for that system now.

If he could find someplace else to go, then he could probably do so. But
he'd need something with a lot of processing space.

-K (who personally thinks this is where "13th Floor" does a good overlap)

From:	grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:28:02 -0400

Message no. 13 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/16/1999 7:54:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> grahamdrew@*********.com writes:
>
> >
> > What's to stop himself from creating a new home node with a copy of
> > himself that doesn't have those "restrictions?" KInda like cloning
> > himself, and then edit the code of the clone.
>
> That is actually a strange thing. In theory, nothing. In function, perhaps
> something entirely different. The SCIRE is quite probably the most powerful
> computer system, short of the *ENTIRE* PCC Network on planet earth in 2060
> time. Deus is the hardware control for that system now.
>
> If he could find someplace else to go, then he could probably do so. But
> he'd need something with a lot of processing space.
>
> -K (who personally thinks this is where "13th Floor" does a good overlap)

Well, seeing as he's pretty much got the financial controls of the Arc
under his thumb, including bank acounts and other such stuff, why not
hire some dudes to put together another nexus of hardware. I'm thinking
something like those Winabegos(sp?) out of William Gibson's episode of
the X-Files.

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia
Datastore 8 - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/1673/

From:	Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:22:33 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 14 On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, grahamdrew wrote:

> Well, seeing as he's pretty much got the financial controls of the Arc
> under his thumb, including bank acounts and other such stuff, why not
> hire some dudes to put together another nexus of hardware. I'm thinking
> something like those Winabegos(sp?) out of William Gibson's episode of
> the X-Files.
>
Well if he does, then he'll be vulnerable to the same thing the Gibson AI
was vulnerable to in that episode: having his line cut. Which they should
have done long before going in and checking out what was going on.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:01:51 EDT

Message no. 15 In a message dated 6/21/1999 7:23:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dcurtis@***.net writes:

>
> Well if he does, then he'll be vulnerable to the same thing the Gibson AI
> was vulnerable to in that episode: having his line cut. Which they should
> have done long before going in and checking out what was going on.

His landlines are cut, its' the satlinks that are the problem. Not to
mention, randomly placed laser-linked communications of a temporary nature.

-K

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:05:41 EDT

Message no. 16 In a message dated 6/21/99 5:03:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

<< > Well if he does, then he'll be vulnerable to the same thing the Gibson
AI
> was vulnerable to in that episode: having his line cut. Which they should
> have done long before going in and checking out what was going on.

His landlines are cut, its' the satlinks that are the problem. Not to
mention, randomly placed laser-linked communications of a temporary nature.

-K
>>

Hey, if Deus was drawn into a part of the SCIRE's system and operatives in
the Arcology cut the hardlinks between that particular mainframe and the rest
of the system, couldn't he be boxed in and unable to trigger a meltdown?

Twist

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	AI Stuff (Re: Corporate Download)
Date:	Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:17:36 EDT

Message no. 17 In a message dated 6/21/1999 4:09:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> Hey, if Deus was drawn into a part of the SCIRE's system and operatives in
> the Arcology cut the hardlinks between that particular mainframe and the
> rest
> of the system, couldn't he be boxed in and unable to trigger a meltdown?

In theory, yes. Problem. Some of those hardlines are encased in some
nasty-thick ferro/plasticrete stuff that, by the time they dug into it far
enough, some part of deus intel network would figure it out.

-K

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