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Message no. 1
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:43:34 -0500
At 07:51 AM 10-26-98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> Something that struck me as odd in Enchanting is that when making
>Orichalcum, the TN is 10-Magic. So a mundane could do it with a TN of 10,
>theoretically. Enchanting, IMO, almost doesn't have to be restricted to
>the magically active, but it would be very much easier to the magically
>active. Sort of like allowing mundanes to learn Conjuring to bind those
>free spirits.
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

Except, of course, that you can't do Alchemy at all without a Magic rating,
as per the Grimoire. Talismongery is as enchanting as mundanes get. IMO,
that particular rule is a feeble attempt to give Enchanters a reason to
have a Magic rating above 1 akin to the pre-SR3 Banishment rules. Assuming
they revamp Enchantment like they did Conjuration, I suspect that Magic
rating will have far more influence in Enchantment tests.

What I'd really like to see in MitS is some Enchanting metamagic.
Transmutation, anyone? That, and something to make Alchemy actually
worth-while in its own right. I've been thinking about some new magical
materials that could be produced by Alchemy, perhaps as metamagic. Three
that spring to mind off the top of my head: Adamant (magically
strong/unbreakable metal), Lunargent ("True Silver" as orichalcum is "True
Gold"), and "Mithril."


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 2
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:35:53 EST
In a message dated 10/26/1998 8:46:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> What I'd really like to see in MitS is some Enchanting metamagic.
> Transmutation, anyone? That, and something to make Alchemy actually
> worth-while in its own right. I've been thinking about some new magical
> materials that could be produced by Alchemy, perhaps as metamagic. Three
> that spring to mind off the top of my head: Adamant (magically
> strong/unbreakable metal), Lunargent ("True Silver" as orichalcum is
"True
> Gold"), and "Mithril."

(*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*)

ACCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No offense here, but if you are going to steal stuff from other games, at
least come up with something original. Okay, I'm a game scenario thief too,
but at least I'm in Rehab ;p

Seriously though, we've (here in Lafalot/HHH) considered things like what you
are proposing, and have come up with some really strange ones all of our own.
I am still working on them for the Enchanting pages of HHH, and include some
things "borrowed" from other areas of interest as well.

Shira (aka: Shiral, a really neat crystal that makes recovering from mental
drain easier)

Illeshorn (nasty ass, powerful metal. Some kind of variation on the theme of
"Mithril Steel")

Jerra (aka: Jerramyn (sp?), yet another neat little alchemical concoction that
actively screws with the magicians ability to perform magical actions (like a
poison that only effects magicians). Nobody likes this one here ;).

Oh, and btw, "Orichalcum" is not "True Gold", sorry, don't work that
way.
It's a representative for "Fifth Elemental Convergence", more reflective of
the "Elemental Magic" or "Elemental Life" concept(s). Lunargent (True
Silver)
is an interesting concept though, what would you suggest it do?

-K
Message no. 3
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:53:02 -0500
K in the Shadows wrote:
>
> ACCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> No offense here, but if you are going to steal stuff from other games, at
> least come up with something original.

You mean as opposed to cliched, stolen concepts like elves, dwarves, orks,
trolls and dragons?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.ned
Message no. 4
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 20:39:31 -0500
At 02:35 PM 10-26-98 EST, K in the Shadows wrote:
>
>(*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE
SILENT*)
>
>ACCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>No offense here, but if you are going to steal stuff from other games, at
>least come up with something original. Okay, I'm a game scenario thief too,
>but at least I'm in Rehab ;p

Huh? Okay, I lifted Mithril from Tolkien, but Lunargent and Adamant both
come from RL myth. Adamant was the material that Promethius's unbreakable
chains were made from in greek mythology, and Lunargent was a legendary
alchemical material. Believe it or not, there are other sources of the
fantastic than game books and fantasy novels...

<snip other possibilities>

>Oh, and btw, "Orichalcum" is not "True Gold", sorry, don't work
that way.
>It's a representative for "Fifth Elemental Convergence", more reflective of
>the "Elemental Magic" or "Elemental Life" concept(s). Lunargent
(True
Silver)
>is an interesting concept though, what would you suggest it do?

Strange. I read of Orichalcum as True Gold in the same source as I read
about Lunargent being True Silver. I don't remember where, I know it
wasn't a game book or a fantasy novel. It might've been an encyclopedia
entry, or some book on RL myth I glanced through.

As for Lunargent, I suppose it depends on what you want it to do.
Unfortunately, I've never managed to find anything that details what the
supposed properties of Lunargent are. Going by silver, which represents
purity in many magical traditions, it might be destructive to certain kinds
of magical creatures like toxic spirits or wraiths, and able to stop or
ward against certain kinds of magic.

Anti-Horror measures, anyone?


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 5
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:18:59 -0500
Quoting Starjammer (starjammer@**********.COM):
> Strange. I read of Orichalcum as True Gold in the same source as I read
> about Lunargent being True Silver. I don't remember where, I know it
> wasn't a game book or a fantasy novel. It might've been an encyclopedia
> entry, or some book on RL myth I glanced through.

For what it's worth, Orichalcum was invented by Plato. He describes
it in his treatise on Atlantis (in his design, the walls of the city were
lined in it). I've only read it in translation, and really only skimmed it,
so I'm not sure what deeper signifigance he may have placed on it, but that's
where it came from originally.
In Tolkein, I believe that 'True Silver' is an alternate name for
Mithril.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 6
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:28:10 EST
In a message dated 10/26/1998 10:19:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

>
> For what it's worth, Orichalcum was invented by Plato. He describes
> it in his treatise on Atlantis (in his design, the walls of the city were
> lined in it). I've only read it in translation, and really only skimmed it,
> so I'm not sure what deeper signifigance he may have placed on it, but
that'
> s
> where it came from originally.

I do believe you may be correct here, and I applaud the personal
research/retention of knowledge here <noise>applause</noise>. However, the
word "Orichalcum" I actually think has other meanings in the Greek text for
some reason. (shrug)

> In Tolkein, I believe that 'True Silver' is an alternate name for
> Mithril.
> --Sean


Mithril was a term used for Frodo's coat of armor that saved him from the
Goblin's spear while they were "under the mountain". It term was "Mithril
Silver". However, Tolkien I believed swiped Mithril from another source as
well, but for some reason I keep thinking that it came from a Polish Folktake
concerning the "enchanted veins of silver the gnomes mined in the hills".

I apologize for my lack of memory here, I had studied/read a lot of this
material over 15 years ago back during my "crazier youth" out in Arizona.
(shrug)

-K
Message no. 7
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:58:35 -0600
> You mean as opposed to cliched, stolen concepts like elves, dwarves, orks,
> trolls and dragons?

That's okay...everything in myth and role-playing was really stolen from the
time of Earthdawn. <snicker>



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 8
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:43:26 -0500
Quoting K in the Shadows (Ereskanti@***.COM):
> > For what it's worth, Orichalcum was invented by Plato. He describes
> > it in his treatise on Atlantis (in his design, the walls of the city were
> > lined in it). I've only read it in translation, and really only skimmed it,
> > so I'm not sure what deeper signifigance he may have placed on it, but
> > where it came from originally.
>
> I do believe you may be correct here, and I applaud the personal
> research/retention of knowledge here <noise>applause</noise>. However,
the
> word "Orichalcum" I actually think has other meanings in the Greek text for
> some reason. (shrug)

I need to find that book again - I finally remembered what it was that
I had read. My parents used to have a copy of a book by an architect that
contained a translation of Plato's writings about Atlantis (or, possibly,
selections therefrom) and provided architectural drawings based on the
(rather precise) measurements and descriptions that Plato gave. It was
pretty cool. Anyway, Plato was definitely speaking about orichalcum as
a metal - that much I know. However, he probably also assigned the metal
certain metaphysical properties, and those I have no idea about.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:14:43 -0600
:As for Lunargent, I suppose it depends on what you want it to do.
:Unfortunately, I've never managed to find anything that details what the
:supposed properties of Lunargent are. Going by silver, which represents
:purity in many magical traditions, it might be destructive to certain
kinds
:of magical creatures like toxic spirits or wraiths, and able to stop or
:ward against certain kinds of magic.
:
:Anti-Horror measures, anyone?
:

Orichalcum is used in construction of some ED Kaers, IIRC. Any "true
element" can be used, and orchalcum represents an amalgam of them all.

For a SR effect, here's an idea; I'd been looking for a way to do
"defensive amulets". Going on the premise the Lunargent has defensive
properties, and is cheaper / easier to make than orichalcum, maybe it
could substitute for Orichalcum in special "defensive Foci". These would
be designed as normal foci, and have the same categories, but they would,
by design, only give defensive bonuses; conjuring to resit spirit powers
and for banishing or defense in control contests, sorcery for spell
defense (including reflective shielding) and warding, weapons foci- well,
maybe no weapon foci <g>. Since the Lunargent would be relatively easy to
get, you could make these foci for less money / karma than normal. The
focus design option "defensive" could also lower the design and other
related TN's.


Mongoose

P.S.- has anybody every tried reflective warding? I suppose any target
behind a ward is easier to use reflective shielding on, so it may be
pointless, but it sure sounds cool...
Message no. 10
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:10:40 -0500
Quoting Mongoose (evamarie@**********.net):
> For a SR effect, here's an idea; I'd been looking for a way to do
> "defensive amulets". Going on the premise the Lunargent has defensive
> properties, and is cheaper / easier to make than orichalcum, maybe it
> could substitute for Orichalcum in special "defensive Foci". These would
> be designed as normal foci, and have the same categories, but they would,
> by design, only give defensive bonuses; conjuring to resit spirit powers
> and for banishing or defense in control contests, sorcery for spell
> defense (including reflective shielding) and warding, weapons foci- well,
> maybe no weapon foci <g>.

The obvious defensive version of a weapon focus is an armor focus...
but I'm not sure we want to go there. The books specifically disclaim the
existance of magical armor, and probably for good reason - it'd open up
quite a mess.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 11
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:25:13 -0500
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

->Quoting Mongoose (evamarie@**********.net):
->> For a SR effect, here's an idea; I'd been looking for a way to do
->> "defensive amulets". Going on the premise the Lunargent has defensive
->> properties, and is cheaper / easier to make than orichalcum, maybe it
->> could substitute for Orichalcum in special "defensive Foci". These
would
->> be designed as normal foci, and have the same categories, but they would,
->> by design, only give defensive bonuses; conjuring to resit spirit powers
->> and for banishing or defense in control contests, sorcery for spell
->> defense (including reflective shielding) and warding, weapons foci- well,
->> maybe no weapon foci <g>.
->
-> The obvious defensive version of a weapon focus is an armor focus...
->but I'm not sure we want to go there. The books specifically disclaim the
->existance of magical armor, and probably for good reason - it'd open up
->quite a mess.

I'm afraid to see how. An Armor Focus would assist in defense
against magic. The Karma Cost should be very high (10x Rating) and the
dice befeits from it would only be allowed for magical defense. Spirits
attempting to attack the wearer of the focus have the power (of their
physical attacks and their special powers) reduced by the rating of the
focus, to a minimum of 2. It's a very defenseive item that doesn't help
you injure someone else at all.....

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 12
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:31:08 +0100
And so it came to happen that Fixer wrote in reply to Sean McCrohan:

> ->Quoting Mongoose (evamarie@**********.net):
> ->> For a SR effect, here's an idea; I'd been looking for a way to do
> ->> "defensive amulets". Going on the premise the Lunargent has
defensive
> ->> properties, and is cheaper / easier to make than orichalcum, maybe it
> ->> could substitute for Orichalcum in special "defensive Foci".
These would
> ->> be designed as normal foci, and have the same categories, but they would,
> ->> by design, only give defensive bonuses; conjuring to resit spirit powers
> ->> and for banishing or defense in control contests, sorcery for spell
> ->> defense (including reflective shielding) and warding, weapons foci- well,
> ->> maybe no weapon foci <g>.
> ->
> -> The obvious defensive version of a weapon focus is an armor focus...
> ->but I'm not sure we want to go there. The books specifically disclaim the
> ->existance of magical armor, and probably for good reason - it'd open up
> ->quite a mess.
>
> I'm afraid to see how. An Armor Focus would assist in defense
> against magic. The Karma Cost should be very high (10x Rating) and the
> dice befeits from it would only be allowed for magical defense. Spirits
> attempting to attack the wearer of the focus have the power (of their
> physical attacks and their special powers) reduced by the rating of the
> focus, to a minimum of 2. It's a very defenseive item that doesn't help
> you injure someone else at all.....
.....except those Spirits....
Someone equipped with a force 6 Armor Focus made up of a lot of
Orichalcum (Creating process maybe half a year including Orichalcum
processing) would surly wupp some ass in the line of free spirits.
Guess the poor slot would not even mention it that his Soul already
has seperated from his cooling body (or crumbling, or burning, or
swelling, or whatever). I think it is in that they too powerfull, even
the chance in making such an artifact is a high Threat for Free
Spirits.
But then, right so! Make those etheral creatures shudder in despair
and crush them with the right tools!
Go Humans, Go!
--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Ger.BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Ger. BABY...
Message no. 13
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:07:11 EST
In a message dated 10/27/1998 4:05:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

>
> P.S.- has anybody every tried reflective warding? I suppose any target
> behind a ward is easier to use reflective shielding on, so it may be
> pointless, but it sure sounds cool...
>
Yes. What rules have you come up with?

-K
Message no. 14
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:09:31 EST
In a message dated 10/27/1998 4:11:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

>
> The obvious defensive version of a weapon focus is an armor
focus...
> but I'm not sure we want to go there. The books specifically disclaim the
> existance of magical armor, and probably for good reason - it'd open up
> quite a mess.
>
Really? I disagree personally. True, I do not see them (Armor Foci) being as
prevelant as Weapon Foci, which are encountered infrequently as it is. But
the idea that armor gives "extra dice equal to it's rating vs. physical/melee
damage" doesn't seem anything more than a garment of some kind being used as
the anchoring point for an Armor spell (any edition).

-K
Message no. 15
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Alchemy (was Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 04:04:00 -0600
>> You mean as opposed to cliched, stolen concepts like elves, dwarves,
orks,
>> trolls and dragons?
>
>That's okay...everything in myth and role-playing was really stolen
from the
>time of Earthdawn. <snicker>


Always liked the comment that Harley made about "Damn Tolkien, spilled
the beans way too early!" or something to that effect...

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972

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