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Message no. 1
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:25:15 -0500
About my last example (mage getting shot by his own Street Samurai), I forgot to
add, naturally, that this would almost certainly fall under "Complete Suprise",
so no
Combat Pool. <Evil GM laugh!> That'll teach them to underestimate spirits!

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 2
From: hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA
Subject: Alienation
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:57:00 +0000
How do you stop a PC from using this ability to his advantage? I have
someone that does, and its starting to get annoying since that is not
the reason this power was made. Any ideas? Commments?

*wave*

*BTW* Only 100 Tickle Me Bill Gates left so order yours TODAY!
Message no. 3
From: "Kevin P. Feathers" <Shd0wW0lf@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 17:04:41 -0500
In a message dated 96-12-24 17:00:37 EST, Hardware wrote:

<<
How do you stop a PC from using this ability to his advantage? I have
someone that does, and its starting to get annoying since that is not
the reason this power was made. Any ideas? Commments?
>>
When a person is under Alienation they cannot interact with the outside
environment, so they cant leave until the spirit lets them out...

Shd0wW0lf
aka
Finnbhara
Message no. 4
From: Faux Pas <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 17:00:55 -0600
At 02:57 PM 12/23/95 +0000, you wrote:
>How do you stop a PC from using this ability to his advantage? I have
>someone that does, and its starting to get annoying since that is not
>the reason this power was made. Any ideas? Commments?
>

Check out the "speaking about spirit p" subject that's been going on for
the last two days.
Message no. 5
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:11:19 -0000
> How do you stop a PC from using this ability to his advantage? I have
> someone that does, and its starting to get annoying since that is not
> the reason this power was made. Any ideas? Commments?

It strictly explains the power is not a beneficial one. I interpret the
power as the target can no longer act upon his surrounding environment. The
world may affect him, but he can't affect it.

To me, in this sense, an alienated magician would no longer be able to
command his summoned spirit (in order to have it drop the alienation). This
could end as a very messy affair to have the spirit alienate you, and hand
your well being over to it like that...you think? Can you say instant Free
Spirit...I knew you could.

<evil gleam in GM's eye>

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Message no. 6
From: hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 21:18:22 +0000
> your well being over to it like that...you think? Can you say instant Free
> Spirit...I knew you could.
>
> <evil gleam in GM's eye>
>
*evil chuckle* I like how you think. I think I shall explain to my
player that this is no not beneficial and he should stop using it as
such.. tho I shalt not explain the penalty to him :)
Message no. 7
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:20:00 -0500
> > How do you stop a PC from using this ability to his advantage? I have
> > someone that does, and its starting to get annoying since that is not
> > the reason this power was made. Any ideas? Commments?
>
> It strictly explains the power is not a beneficial one. I interpret the
> power as the target can no longer act upon his surrounding environment.
The
> world may affect him, but he can't affect it.

That's the way we use it in our campaign as well.
IMHO Alienation just might be THE strongest Critter power in the book.
Used correctly you can simply erase a PC from existance.
I had an Ork Sammy that was really pissing me off one night.
His character was engaging in far too much random theft and violence, and
it was disrupting the game.
Sure, playing a convenience store robbery can be fun, but not every night!

To solve this problem, the next store he tried to rob had a spirit
protecting it, and it alienated him.
Try as he might, he could not do ANYTHING!
He could not -
open a door
fire a gun
be heard
be seen
use equipment
eat
get to the restroom
unzip his pants

I COMPLETELY isolated this goon until he got the point.

This power can be abused by magicians if you are not careful.
A strong enough nature spirit is more than capable of alienating the wizard
until sunup/down, giving the wizard time to rest/heal in relative safety.
The easiest way to fight this is to remember that while he cannot affect
the otside world at all, he can be affected BY the outside world.
He can still be -
randomly shot by a stray bullet
hit by a bus crossing the street
detected from astral space by a BIGGER spirit wondering what the astral
commotion is
bumped into and knocked down a flight of stairs
accidently sat upon by a nearby dragon

A few bad "accidents" like these, and the poor wizard won't even
contemplate using this on himself.

As far as abusing this power by using it on others . . . that's a hard one.
On the few occaisons I actually get to PLAY SR, my shark shaman uses just
such tactics.
Alienation IS a tough power for NPC's to fight off.
Remember though that the PC's can't just alienate the character then waste
him.
Once he's alienated, I wouldn't even let the spirit locate him, much less
the wizard.

Hope this helps.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 02:28:57 -0500
At 02:57 PM 12/23/95 +0000, you wrote:
>How do you stop a PC from using this ability to his advantage? I have
>someone that does, and its starting to get annoying since that is not
>the reason this power was made. Any ideas? Commments?
>
>*wave*
>
Simple.... He does it thru a summoned spirit, right? Well, have the spirit
that he summons inexplicably go free, and alienate HIM... After all, he's
abusing the spirits powers...

Or introduce him to Tudor (from Threats)...:):):)

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Why am I here?"
-Robin Williams, "Good Morning Vietnam"
Message no. 9
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:39:41 -0400
This has been nagging my campaign for months!

Alienation is a critter power which seems to be extremely potent.
According to SRII all a shaman has to do is order a spirit of man to
alienate a opponent and the opponent will be alienated for (Essence)
hours.
Now the book says that alienation works like an invisibility spell
and makes the target intangible. Nonetheless is the intangibility part
true? Because the book says that people who are alienated need to make a
success test to avoid a situation. Would bullets hurt them at all? And
is there any way besides killing the spirit who alienated a person for
him to resist alienation?
It is a little strange for any person to be simply alienated
whenever the shaman desires.

Dust

P.S. Are other spirits subject to the alienation power? i.e. can they be
alienated and can other dual natured critters be alienated?

P.P.S. Can you see an alienated being from astral space?

P.P.P.S. Can alienation be dispelled?

P.P.P.P.S. Can any critter power be dispelled?

P.P.P.P.P.S. Bye now! :}
Message no. 10
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:05:28 -0500
At 12:39 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Dust whispered:
>This has been nagging my campaign for months!
>
> Alienation is a critter power which seems to be extremely potent.
> Now the book says that alienation works like an invisibility spell
>and makes the target intangible. Nonetheless is the intangibility part
>true?

No it's not. The alienated character isn't intangible, the character just
isn't precieved by others. Bullets would hurt an intangible character.
The character can be run over by a truck.

> It is a little strange for any person to be simply alienated
>whenever the shaman desires.

It's not a good thing and shouldn't be used as the invisibility power. The
other characters can't interact with the character and they don't even know
that the character exists. In a game situation, instruct the alienated
character not to speak and only be able to communicate with you (the GM) by
passing notes to you. Don't notate his character on the board and instruct
the other players not to talk to the affected character/player or mention him.

>P.S. Are other spirits subject to the alienation power? i.e. can they be
>alienated and can other dual natured critters be alienated?

Yes.

>P.P.S. Can you see an alienated being from astral space?

No. Nobody notices you at all.

>P.P.P.S. Can alienation be dispelled?
>P.P.P.P.S. Can any critter power be dispelled?

Kill or banish the spirit that did this to you.


-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun -- http://shadowrun.miningco.com -- updated every
Wednesday!
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org -- come visit!

"More human than human."
-White Zombie
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:38:08 -0600
Faux Pas wrote:
|
| > It is a little strange for any person to be simply alienated
| >whenever the shaman desires.
|
| It's not a good thing and shouldn't be used as the invisibility power. The
| other characters can't interact with the character and they don't even know
| that the character exists.

That's the main point, the character ceases to exist from everyone's
point of view. Alienation is not invisibility. Interestingly enough
if a shaman commanded a spirit to alienate someone, the shaman would
no longer know about the person. He might wonder what happened to
that service that he just spent. Also, people's perceptions will
change to match any changes the target might make. If the target
pushed someone, that person would think the tripped. Also, I rule
that the alienation affects the spirit that uses the power (if a
spirit alienates someone, they cease to exist even for that spirit).

Did you ever see the twilight zone where the guy breaks the stopwatch
that allowed him to freeze time, and finds himself surrounded by a
world frozen in time? Think about it, the guy is absolutely alone
while surrounded by people. Alienation sucks (if you're the target
of it).

| >P.P.S. Can you see an alienated being from astral space?
|
| No. Nobody notices you at all.

Ditto.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 12
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:52:15 +0100
|
|This has been nagging my campaign for months!
|
| Alienation is a critter power which seems to be extremely potent.
|According to SRII all a shaman has to do is order a spirit of man to
|alienate a opponent and the opponent will be alienated for (Essence)
|hours.
| Now the book says that alienation works like an invisibility spell
|and makes the target intangible. Nonetheless is the intangibility part
|true?

Only with regards to attracting attention.
The victim can't, for example, pick up a pen and write "Help!".

He can however be hit by a passing car or bullet.
(And in the case of the car, the person inside won't hear the *bump*.

Because the book says that people who are alienated need to make a
|success test to avoid a situation. Would bullets hurt them at all?

Yes. It says that in the description.

And
|is there any way besides killing the spirit who alienated a person for
|him to resist alienation?

Not in the rules.....

|P.P.S. Can you see an alienated being from astral space?

Yes.... But you might forget about him the moment you see him.

|P.P.P.S. Can alienation be dispelled?

I might be possible to attack the effect, but I doubt it could be dispelled.

|P.P.P.P.S. Can any critter power be dispelled?

They aren't spells, so I'd rule NO.

|P.P.P.P.P.S. Bye now! :}

See ya!


--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:00:21 -0700
> And
> |is there any way besides killing the spirit who alienated a person for
> |him to resist alienation?
>
> Not in the rules.....
>
If the victim leaves the domain of the spirit, I believe the alienation
power would end (unless it was a great form spirit).

Mike
Message no. 14
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:05:52 +0300
On Tue, 27 May 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> Faux Pas wrote:
>
> Did you ever see the twilight zone where the guy breaks the stopwatch
> that allowed him to freeze time, and finds himself surrounded by a
> world frozen in time? Think about it, the guy is absolutely alone
> while surrounded by people. Alienation sucks (if you're the target
> of it).
>

I think that to simulated this, and prevent players from becoming
self-alienated, a victim would gradually despare, and just find a place to
crawl and hide.

So I propose a Willpower test every hour after the second,
with the target being something like (Spirit Essence-4)+hours alienated.
If they fail the test. Victims spent the rest of the time, until they
succeed at a test, hiding from view and been really miserable.

Am I clear?
*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 15
From: Richard Swen <rswen@***.QUALCOMM.COM>
Subject: Alienation
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:23:46 -0700
What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?

Richard Swen
Message no. 16
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:18:43 -0500
At 11:23 AM 5/27/97 -0700, Richard Swen whispered:
>What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?

Gee, I don't know -- how about the same thing that would happen if you used
alienation on any other target?

</sarcasm>


-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun -- http://shadowrun.miningco.com -- updated every
Wednesday!
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org -- come visit!

"More human than human."
-White Zombie
Message no. 17
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:35:41 +0100
|
|What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?

The same thing that would happen to a normal person....
He/she wouldn't be able to attack anyone, and everyone would totally ignore
the vampire....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:50:12 -0700
Spike wrote:
> | Alienation is a critter power which seems to be extremely
potent.
> |According to SRII all a shaman has to do is order a spirit of man to
> |alienate a opponent and the opponent will be alienated for (Essence)
> |hours.
> | Now the book says that alienation works like an
invisibility spell
> |and makes the target intangible. Nonetheless is the intangibility
part
> |true?
>
> Only with regards to attracting attention.
> The victim can't, for example, pick up a pen and write "Help!".
>
> He can however be hit by a passing car or bullet.
> (And in the case of the car, the person inside won't hear the *bump*.

Exactly. My general rule of thumb for this effect is that the victim
cannot act upon the physical world, though the it can act upon him. He
could not grasp and turn the doorknob to open the door, though someone
could open said door into him and knock him on his ass. He cannot push
or kick a person, though becuase of not being aware of him they could
walk into him and bump him out of the way (not even feeling when they
do so).

Basically, alienation is not meant to be beneficial in any means. Most
often times critters will use this power when hunting down and then
devouring a victim. No one will hear the screams, and the beast could
be eating your buddy alive while you sleep right across the camp...

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 19
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:14:09 +0300
On Tue, 27 May 1997, Loki wrote:

> do so).
>
> Basically, alienation is not meant to be beneficial in any means. Most
> often times critters will use this power when hunting down and then
> devouring a victim. No one will hear the screams, and the beast could
> be eating your buddy alive while you sleep right across the camp...
>
If said creature cast Alienate on it's victim it would soon starve.
Remeber, It can't find them, it may not even remember on whom he used the
power. 8)

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 20
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:14:58 -0700
---Technomancer wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Loki wrote:
>
> > do so).
> >
> > Basically, alienation is not meant to be beneficial in any means.
Most
> > often times critters will use this power when hunting down and then
> > devouring a victim. No one will hear the screams, and the beast
could
> > be eating your buddy alive while you sleep right across the camp...
> >
> If said creature cast Alienate on it's victim it would soon starve.
> Remeber, It can't find them, it may not even remember on whom he
used the
> power. 8)

Oh now let's be silly...

Where do you get the idea that said creature that has alienated his
target has alienated this victim to itself as well? Does that honestly
make any sense to you? (I'm assuming the smiley meant you can't be
serious).

I just don't buy it, the power makes much more sense when used in my
above example. It's too useful of a tool in my GM's toybox to play it
the way I've described.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 21
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:43:31 -0400
> I think that to simulated this, and prevent players from becoming
> self-alienated, a victim would gradually despare, and just find a place
to
> crawl and hide.
>
> So I propose a Willpower test every hour after the second,
> with the target being something like (Spirit Essence-4)+hours alienated.
> If they fail the test. Victims spent the rest of the time, until they
> succeed at a test, hiding from view and been really miserable.
>
> Am I clear?

Perfectly clear, but you're forgetting one thing.
Nature Spirits ... the ones that have alienation ... only stick around
until the next sunup/down.
Logic dictates that anyone with sense just hunker down out of sight, and
wait for it to end.

The roblem is realizing that you have been alienated in the first place.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"These Catholic Girls are like Wiffle Balls ... they just don't go very far
.."
Message no. 22
From: Tuvyah@***.COM
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:29:49 -0400
>>What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?

u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike) wrote:

>The same thing that would happen to a normal person....
He/she wouldn't be able to attack anyone-
<snip>

Why not? I think the vampire would be able to attack. It's just that the
victim might not notice.

Clearly, alienation is a curse that works best on **social** beings.

Smilin' Ted
Message no. 23
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:16:57 +0000
On 28 May 97 at 0:43, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
[snip]
> Nature Spirits ... the ones that have alienation ... only stick around
> until the next sunup/down.
> Logic dictates that anyone with sense just hunker down out of sight, and
> wait for it to end.
"Yes, Mr Street Sam. How long does it take? Hm - please do a Magic
Theory Skill test, TN 4. Uh - sure you can default... wait... Firearms?
No. Int, at TN 14, or Willpower at TN 10... No success? For all you
know it will last till the world ends..." *GM grin*

> The roblem is realizing that you have been alienated in the first place.
Yup. My players fear this pre-prepared note: "Don't say anything till
allowed to!" :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | *BLAM!* *BLAM!* |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| 'Stop!' *BLAM!* |
| \___ __/ | | 'Police!' *BLAM!* |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | -- Officer Axly |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Phoenix Command SACS|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:54:09 +0100
Technomancer said on 2:14/28 May 97...

> > Basically, alienation is not meant to be beneficial in any means. Most
> > often times critters will use this power when hunting down and then
> > devouring a victim. No one will hear the screams, and the beast could
> > be eating your buddy alive while you sleep right across the camp...
> >
> If said creature cast Alienate on it's victim it would soon starve.
> Remeber, It can't find them, it may not even remember on whom he used the
> power. 8)

I think it's safe to assume the critter will remember it is using its
power against a target, and if a shaman orders a spirit to alienate
someone, that the shaman will remember as well (or at least remember that
the spirit is using that power against _someone_).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And everytime it rains...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:54:09 +0100
Dust said on 12:39/27 May 97...

> Alienation is a critter power which seems to be extremely potent.
> According to SRII all a shaman has to do is order a spirit of man to
> alienate a opponent and the opponent will be alienated for (Essence)
> hours.
> Now the book says that alienation works like an invisibility spell
> and makes the target intangible. Nonetheless is the intangibility part
> true? Because the book says that people who are alienated need to make a
> success test to avoid a situation. Would bullets hurt them at all? And
> is there any way besides killing the spirit who alienated a person for
> him to resist alienation?

Here we go again :) My view on Alienation is that it makes people see
through you like with an invisibility spell, yes, but it doens't make you
intangible. However, it makes people think up rational explanations for
why they just bumped into something when there is only empty air there.
If they shoot "through" you to hit someone, the bullets strike _you_, not
the intended target. This may be interpreted as a miss by the shooter, who
will then fire some more...

> It is a little strange for any person to be simply alienated
> whenever the shaman desires.

But it is possible. Remember, though, that it costs a service to Alienate
someone, and that spirits can only use one power at a time unless
otherwise noted.

> P.S. Are other spirits subject to the alienation power? i.e. can they be
> alienated and can other dual natured critters be alienated?

I don't see why not.

> P.P.S. Can you see an alienated being from astral space?

Not sure, because the power description suggests your mind ignores the
target of the Alienation power; this would work equally well when viewed
from the astral plane, since it's working on your mind rather than on the
target.

> P.P.P.S. Can alienation be dispelled?
>
> P.P.P.P.S. Can any critter power be dispelled?

It doesn't say anywhere, AFAIK right now. If you do rule it can be
dispelled, I'd say use the critter's Essence as if it were the Force of
the power.

> P.P.P.P.P.S. Bye now! :}

*phew* :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And everytime it rains...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:54:09 +0100
Richard Swen said on 11:23/27 May 97...

> What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?

The same as what happens when you alienate another person -- the vampire
won't be noticed by other people, (s)he'll start to feel lonely, etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And everytime it rains...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 27
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:44:01 GMT
Dust writes
>
> Alienation is a critter power which seems to be extremely potent.
> According to SRII all a shaman has to do is order a spirit of man to
> alienate a opponent and the opponent will be alienated for (Essence)
> hours.
> Now the book says that alienation works like an invisibility spell
> and makes the target intangible. Nonetheless is the intangibility part
> true?
apparantly intangible would be better. they are still there
physically and therefore vulnerable to all the nasty things that can
happen to someone walking through a fight that no one has bothered to
avoid.

> Because the book says that people who are alienated need to make a
> success test to avoid a situation. Would bullets hurt them at all?
Yes! though unless they stand in the line of fire they are not that
likely to be shot at.

> And
> is there any way besides killing the spirit who alienated a person for
> him to resist alienation?
Not AFAIK, appart from possibly dispelling the power, though as
spirits essence would replace spell force you might need to be such a
high grade initiate to try this that splattering the spirit would be
a darned sight easier.

> It is a little strange for any person to be simply alienated
> whenever the shaman desires.
>
Yes its effective, however its a service per target.

> P.S. Are other spirits subject to the alienation power? i.e. can they be
> alienated and can other dual natured critters be alienated?
Don't see why not.

>
> P.P.S. Can you see an alienated being from astral space?
>
You could yes, the power might cause you to ignore them regardless
though but you could still see the magical signature of the power
which might well make you very suspicious of what is going on.

> P.P.P.S. Can alienation be dispelled?
>
As i said above i don't see why not. force = essence. effective drain
at the GM's discretion.

> P.P.P.P.S. Can any critter power be dispelled?
They are magical so i don't see why not but given likely spirit force
ratings the point is often moot, terminating the spirit is usually
easier as dispelling has a grade related limit. Effective drain code
at the GM's discretion, attempting to 'dispell' a strom strike is
therefore not advised!

>
> P.P.P.P.P.S. Bye now! :}
>

Mark
Message no. 28
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:06:12 +0300
Can an alienated character shoot others (non-alienated)?

Can he interact with physical objects?

If yes, then consider the following:
Loner shaman alienates himself and walks into the office, shooting the
guards, stealing the loot and walking out. He knows in a few hours he will
again be felt. (He may even summon a low force spirit to be in this state
for a few hours only).

How come this doesn't feel like what the power should be?

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 29
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:29:58 +0100
|
|On Tue, 27 May 1997, Loki wrote:
|
|> do so).
|>
|> Basically, alienation is not meant to be beneficial in any means. Most
|> often times critters will use this power when hunting down and then
|> devouring a victim. No one will hear the screams, and the beast could
|> be eating your buddy alive while you sleep right across the camp...
|>
|If said creature cast Alienate on it's victim it would soon starve.
|Remeber, It can't find them, it may not even remember on whom he used the
|power. 8)

Ahhh, but that all depends on whether the critter is immune to it's own
powers. I'd rule that a spirit would KNOW where the victim is.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 30
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:52:01 GMT
Technomancer writes

> Can an alienated character shoot others (non-alienated)?
>
With difficulty, he will have trouble pulling the trigger.

> Can he interact with physical objects?
>
With difficulty. He must make an attribute test, often strength as a
TN of the spirits force to have any affect at all so opening doors
becomes a real pain. The automated variety certainly won't work.
In fact he may have serious trouble moving about as contact with the
ground could be rather difficult.

> If yes, then consider the following:
> Loner shaman alienates himself and walks into the office, shooting the
> guards, stealing the loot and walking out. He knows in a few hours he will
> again be felt. (He may even summon a low force spirit to be in this state
> for a few hours only).
>
> How come this doesn't feel like what the power should be?
>
Ok first there is this nice manifested spirit waltzing in the door,
must be manifest to use the power, dah code 99 MAGIC!!! anyone.

second he cannot open the doors so he will have to follow someone,
any get sent sprawling when they step back into him to avoid the guy
comming out of the elevator.

Now when he tries to open the drawer he gets nowhere, stains, makes
the strength roll and the drawer comes flying out and the contents go
flying about the room, the chip case he wanted bursts and well you
get the idea. Let alone when he treis to pick things up.

Mark
Message no. 31
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:01:22 +0100
|
|>>What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?
|
|u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike) wrote:
|
|>The same thing that would happen to a normal person....
|He/she wouldn't be able to attack anyone-
|<snip>
|
|Why not? I think the vampire would be able to attack. It's just that the
|victim might not notice.

As far as the vampire is concerned, unless he's about to be hit BY
something, he's intangible. He might TRY to bite someone, but he'd be biting
air!

|Clearly, alienation is a curse that works best on **social** beings.

It works on ANYONE! You can't eat, talk, write anything down, record your
voice, touch anything.

It might not be AS annoying to a vampire, but it's a way of removing him as
a threat for a few hours.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 32
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:15:49 +0100
|
|Can an alienated character shoot others (non-alienated)?

What with? The moment he went for his gun, it'd slip through his rather
insubstantial fingers.

|Can he interact with physical objects?

No. But physical objects can interact with him.

|If yes, then consider the following:
|Loner shaman alienates himself and walks into the office, shooting the
|guards, stealing the loot and walking out. He knows in a few hours he will
|again be felt. (He may even summon a low force spirit to be in this state
|for a few hours only).
|
|How come this doesn't feel like what the power should be?

It isn't. See above.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:43:40 +0100
Technomancer said on 14:06/28 May 97...

> Can an alienated character shoot others (non-alienated)?
>
> Can he interact with physical objects?

I don't see why not, if you accept my explanation/view that it makes
other people ignore you, without actually making you intangible.

> If yes, then consider the following:
> Loner shaman alienates himself and walks into the office, shooting the
> guards, stealing the loot and walking out. He knows in a few hours he will
> again be felt. (He may even summon a low force spirit to be in this state
> for a few hours only).
>
> How come this doesn't feel like what the power should be?

Because it makesyou _feel_ alienated: lonely, ignored by everyone, sad,
and many other similar words. The shaman trying to pull this trick would
start to feel so bad he'd have a very hard time actually carryign out the
"walk into office, steal loot, walk out" routine.
This is something for the GM to keep in mind, and try and make the player
roleplay the alienation power in such a way. But (sometimes unfortunately)
these effects can't really be put into tests or TN modifiers.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:10:36 -0500
At 05:43 PM 5/28/97 +0100, Gurth whispered:
>Technomancer said on 14:06/28 May 97...
>
>> Can an alienated character shoot others (non-alienated)?
>>
>> Can he interact with physical objects?
>
>I don't see why not, if you accept my explanation/view that it makes
>other people ignore you, without actually making you intangible.

The way we play it is it also makes the character feel like he has no
energy. It's like when you're really really really tired, and you try to
turn a doorknob, but all you can do is just drop your hand on the knob.
The effect is like having all the muscles in your body go limp. Or trying
to talk after the dentist gives you a shot of novocaine. Or having your
fingers numb from the winter's chill.

>> If yes, then consider the following:
>> Loner shaman alienates himself and walks into the office, shooting the
>> guards, stealing the loot and walking out. He knows in a few hours he will
>> again be felt. (He may even summon a low force spirit to be in this state
>> for a few hours only).
>>
>> How come this doesn't feel like what the power should be?

With the limp-muscle theory, the shaman would alienate himself, walk to the
office doors, try to open the door but can't. He'd wait until someone
opened the doors and try to scoot in before they shut. Once inside, he'd
look around at everyone working and try to get his gun out of the holster.
After about a half hour, he might get it out. But if he does, he'll drop
the gun on the floor. He'll spend another hour trying to pick up the gun,
but can't. Giving up, and feeling really depressed, he tries to leave, but
walks into the door again. He waits about ten minutes until someone opens
the door and walks through. The shaman walks through the door, shuffles
off across the street to his car, gets hit by a van ("Must be something in
the road," the driver says absent-mindedly), crawls to the side of the
street and collapses.


-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun -- http://shadowrun.miningco.com -- updated every
Wednesday!
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org -- come visit!

"One of these bullets has your name on it, and I'm going to keep firing
until I find it."
Message no. 35
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:04:26 -0700
| > What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?
|
| The same as what happens when you alienate another person -- the vampire
| won't be noticed by other people, (s)he'll start to feel lonely, etc.

So that's it!!!!!! I've been alienated this whole time. Doh!!!!!!!!

=)

Sorry i'm feeling silly.

-Caric

"I was NAKED!!!!!!!!!!!"
-Blackjack our Racoon Shaman when asked why he ran away from one
particular fight."
Message no. 36
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:16:11 +1000
> > What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?
>
> The same as what happens when you alienate another person -- the vampire
> won't be noticed by other people, (s)he'll start to feel lonely, etc.

Awwww... da poor lonely vampire... *giggle*


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 37
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:17:01 +1000
> > What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?
>
> The same as what happens when you alienate another person -- the vampire
> won't be noticed by other people, (s)he'll start to feel lonely, etc.

Actually, if the alienation lasted long enough, it could seriously harm
the vampire - as the vampire's essence drops, it won't be able to feed
while alienated. Hmmm...


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 38
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:59:18 EDT
On Thu, 29 May 1997 08:17:01 +1000 Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes:
>> > What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?
>>
>> The same as what happens when you alienate another person -- the
>vampire
>> won't be noticed by other people, (s)he'll start to feel lonely,
>etc.
>
>Actually, if the alienation lasted long enough, it could seriously
>harm
>the vampire - as the vampire's essence drops, it won't be able to feed
>while alienated. Hmmm...

How many critters do you know of that can keep someone alienated for
months on end? I don't happen to have the manual:( but someone said that
Alienation lasts Force Hours or something like it. I don't know of too
many things that have a force high enough to Alienate someone for that
long (and don't want to mess with it when I find it!). You could have a
series of spirits constantly Alienating some poor fool of a vamp, but
wouldn't it be easier to just, well, kill them? Since vampires lose
Essence at a point per month, Alienating them for upwards of a year could
be a bit impractical...OTOH, if you could Alienate one who's just been
turned into a vampire...


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:40:11 +0100
Lady Jestyr said on 8:17/29 May 97...

> Actually, if the alienation lasted long enough, it could seriously harm
> the vampire - as the vampire's essence drops, it won't be able to feed
> while alienated. Hmmm...

That's only a side-effect, though, as the alienation itself won't harm a
vampire more than it will a human. Keep in mind, though, that the time
between "meals" for vampires in SR is measured in months, since the
Essence Loss power causes 1 point of Essence to disappear each month -- a
vampire that feeds well just once can go without biting anyone for
approximately a year. A nature spirit disappeares long before that time...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 40
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:13:59 +0000
On 28 May 97 at 11:04, XXXXX wrote:
> | > What would happen if you used alienation on a vampire?
> | The same as what happens when you alienate another person -- the vampire
> | won't be noticed by other people, (s)he'll start to feel lonely, etc.
> So that's it!!!!!! I've been alienated this whole time. Doh!!!!!!!!
>
> =)
>
> Sorry i'm feeling silly.
>
> -XXXXX
>
> "XXXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!"
> -XXXXXXXXX our XXXXXXX Shaman when asked why XX ran away from XXX
> particular fight."
Now who was this?
Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The light at the |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|end of the tunnel is|
| \___ __/ | | the headlight of an|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | approaching train. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- Skip (?) |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 41
From: Dust <rogan@******.ORG>
Subject: Alienation
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:23:54 +0000
The critter power of alienation is described as giving the being the
ability to enshroud its victims in an aura that makes the victim invisible
to others.

I've been having so many confusing issues about this power in my campaign.

For starters:

1) Vicitms of alienation are intangible? Does that mean if they wander
out of the domain of the spirit that is alienating them, they will come
out of the alienation? And To what degree of intangibility is this, is it
that of astral projection or different?

2) How many vicitms can a spirit alienate at one time?

3) Can a summoner alienate themselves?

4) Can the shroud of alienation be attacked in astral space like a
sustained spell?

Lates,

Dust
Message no. 42
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:34:17 PST
>The critter power of alienation is described as giving the being the
>ability to enshroud its victims in an aura that makes the victim
invisible
>to others.
>
>I've been having so many confusing issues about this power in my
campaign.
>
>For starters:
>
>1) Vicitms of alienation are intangible? Does that mean if they
wander
>out of the domain of the spirit that is alienating them, they will come
>out of the alienation? And To what degree of intangibility is this, is
it
>that of astral projection or different?

Well, I'd say more like a ghost- as then can't see the astral
plane(unless they have that ability without help).

>
>2) How many vicitms can a spirit alienate at one time?

Alienation is a service. If you have 3 services, you can alienate up
to 3 people.

>
>3) Can a summoner alienate themselves?

I don't see why not...

>
>4) Can the shroud of alienation be attacked in astral space like a
>sustained spell?

Good question. Since I don't have enough headware memory to dish out
a "yes" or "no" answer. I'll just say I would attack the spirit
first-
and that'll get rid of all your problems. :)


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:25:50 +0100
Dust said on 22:23/ 2 Feb 98...

Here we go again... I really hope this power gets cleared up in SRIII else
we'll all spend another half of our collective lives explaining it to
people... :)

Note that there are some differences between the power descriptions in
SRII and Paranormal Animals of Europe; I suggest using the one in PAoE, as
it's more detailed.

> 1) Vicitms of alienation are intangible?

The way I see Alienation is that it makes others disregard the target;
The way it's written it looks like you can't touch the target, but can
still fire a bullet into him or her, which doesn't make all that much
sense to me. For that reason, I play it that people touching, hearing,
seeing, smelling, whatevering the target make up a reason for why they did
that when there's clearly nobody there. For example, someone bumps into
the target of the Alienation power, and then blames it on the pavement
being slippery so he almost tripped.

> Does that mean if they wander out of the domain of the spirit that is
> alienating them, they will come out of the alienation?

Spirit powers only work in the spirit's domain, so if a city spirit
Alienates you and you walk into a house, you're out of it.

> And To what degree of intangibility is this, is it that of astral
> projection or different?

It's not astral projection; that would be something like the Astral
Gateway power that some free spirits have. See above for the easiest
(IMHO) solution.

> 2) How many vicitms can a spirit alienate at one time?

One. See PAoE page 125, under One At A Time!

> 3) Can a summoner alienate themselves?

Yes, but I can't think of a reason why a sane person would want to do
this. Remember, being Alienated makes you feel all alone in the world.

> 4) Can the shroud of alienation be attacked in astral space like a
> sustained spell?

At the GM's option (PAoE p. 125), magicians may resist powers with their
Magic attribute rather than the normal attribute used against the power.
That suggests to me that powers like Alienation can be attacked in astral
space, because in effect they're pretty much like spells. I'd treat it as
a spell with a Force equal to the spirit's Essence.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Sloan Poa!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 44
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:55:14 MEZ-1MESZ
<snip alienation text>

Alienation should be an attack to get rid off enemies. The spirit
uses it for defence and not for helping someone else IMHO.

Using this as a guideline I use Alienation 2-sided. (Of course it is
a house rule!)....

The victim can not be seen by others - friend or foe - . Since the
victim could use this as an advantage - which should not be IMO - the
victim suffers the same effect. That means he can't see or hear
anything but the enviroment. He sees the trees but no birds are
singing, no wind blows ... and ... no security people shoot (or do
they ???)

Maybe you have another view on the Alienation power but I like it
this may the most :-)

Sandman
Message no. 45
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:37:44 -0700
SThanatos wrote:
/
/ We're having an on going "discussion" in my SR group about the alienation
/ power. Noone seems to agree on what "intangible" implies. Are victims
/ affected by alienation subject to physical intangibility (bullets pass
/ through them, walk through walls, etc) or are they just rendered invisible
/ and their "friends shoot(ing) through them" implies that they just can't
/ see them on any plane? In one instance we actually used alienation to our
/ advantage, because we've been using the second definition of the
/ power...Sorry Brett, don't mean to undermine you, but damn it, I want a
/ straight answer. :)

The general consensus is that an alienated person is ignored by
everyone. If the victim is in the middle of a crowd then people will
bump into him, thinking they bumped into someone else or just lost
their footing. If the victim is in the middle of a street drivers
will run over them. The driver might wonder what the hell happened,
but no one will see the victim ("it must have been a dog that ran
off. yeah, that's it. a dog ran out in front of me, I hit it, then
it ran off. it's probably dying in some ally right now. oh well.
damn dog.")

Also, most of feel that the victim cannot affect his environment. He
can't open doors. He can't drive a car. And so on. It's not that
he can't touch things, it's that he becomes so apathetic that he
doesn't want to. About all he can do is wander aimlessly around.

Alienation is not a beneficial power and should not be used as a
substitute for invisibility or concealment.

The above are not rulings, they're the general consensus of the
listmembers that debated this topic the last time it came up.

-David
--
"I don't think of all the misery,
but of all the beauty that still remains."
- Anne Frank
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 46
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:01:05 PST
>The general consensus is that an alienated person is ignored by
>everyone. If the victim is in the middle of a crowd then people will
>bump into him, thinking they bumped into someone else or just lost
>their footing. If the victim is in the middle of a street drivers
>will run over them. The driver might wonder what the hell happened,
>but no one will see the victim ("it must have been a dog that ran
>off. yeah, that's it. a dog ran out in front of me, I hit it, then
>it ran off. it's probably dying in some ally right now. oh well.
>damn dog.")

"General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through him.
If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel free.

>
>Also, most of feel that the victim cannot affect his environment. He
>can't open doors. He can't drive a car. And so on. It's not that
>he can't touch things, it's that he becomes so apathetic that he
>doesn't want to. About all he can do is wander aimlessly around.

Again, it's not because he or she's apathetic, it's because he or she
has no effective mass(but is not astral, mind you. Think of it as a
really complex invisiblity spell that makes you more ghost like).

>
>Alienation is not a beneficial power and should not be used as a
>substitute for invisibility or concealment.

I agree.
>
>The above are not rulings, they're the general consensus of the
>listmembers that debated this topic the last time it came up.

I don't want to open any old wounds. If the list has settled on
something, then I'm behind it. I just don't want whoever was asking
about Alienation think that what is on this list is cannon. He should
know what the book says as well. As usual, YMMV.



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I
am right."
-Ashleigh Brilliant


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 47
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:24:55 -0500
On 16 Mar 98 at 12:01, The Vagabond wrote:

> "General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
> subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through
> him. If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel
> free.

Huh? Where do you get that? The only reason there is a "general
consensus" is because information on Alienation is vague. Alienation
is detrimental to the victim. It should not convey bonuses like no
mass.

> >Alienation is not a beneficial power and should not be used as a
> >substitute for invisibility or concealment.
>
> I agree.

Do you? Not being affected by bullets and people seems like it could
be beneficial to me.

> I don't want to open any old wounds. If the list has settled on
> something, then I'm behind it. I just don't want whoever was asking
> about Alienation think that what is on this list is cannon. He
> should know what the book says as well. As usual, YMMV.

I await your clarification as to which book and what page mentions
what you state above.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" |-Unknown
=================================================================
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Message no. 48
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:06:38 +1000
The Vagabond writes:
>>The general consensus is that an alienated person is ignored by
>>everyone. If the victim is in the middle of a crowd then people will
>>bump into him, thinking they bumped into someone else or just lost
>>their footing. If the victim is in the middle of a street drivers
>>will run over them. The driver might wonder what the hell happened,
>>but no one will see the victim ("it must have been a dog that ran
>>off. yeah, that's it. a dog ran out in front of me, I hit it, then
>>it ran off. it's probably dying in some ally right now. oh well.
>>damn dog.")
>
> "General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
>subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through him.

The bit in the description where they say that the victim's friends will
shoot _through_ him does not imply that bullets pass through him. Well,
okay, they might, but they will leave a messy exit wound.

Alienation makes people not notice you. As said above, it means that they
will shoot through you to get at someone else (and then wonder why they
missed, as the bullets get stopped in you), and people will step on your
feet, and drivers won't swerve to miss you, etc... It does not mean that
these actions will not harm you, or that they'll go right through you.

>If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel free.
>
>>
>>Also, most of feel that the victim cannot affect his environment. He
>>can't open doors. He can't drive a car. And so on. It's not that
>>he can't touch things, it's that he becomes so apathetic that he
>>doesn't want to. About all he can do is wander aimlessly around.

>
> Again, it's not because he or she's apathetic, it's because he or she
>has no effective mass(but is not astral, mind you. Think of it as a
>really complex invisiblity spell that makes you more ghost like).


The part just above is a general consensus. Nowhere does it say in the bok
that the victim can not affect his environment.

>>
>>Alienation is not a beneficial power and should not be used as a
>>substitute for invisibility or concealment.
>
> I agree.
>>
>>The above are not rulings, they're the general consensus of the
>>listmembers that debated this topic the last time it came up.
>
> I don't want to open any old wounds. If the list has settled on
>something, then I'm behind it. I just don't want whoever was asking
>about Alienation think that what is on this list is cannon. He should
>know what the book says as well. As usual, YMMV.


The book does NOT say that the victim is insubstantial.

As an example of what the book says, think of the victim as being surrounded
by a SEP field (Somebody-Else's-Problem, taken from "Life, The Universe, and
Everything", by Douglas Adams. In that book, he points out that a mountain,
surrounded by a SEP field, would allow people to walk over it, around it,
through it (via a tunnel), and never notice that it is there. This is the
perfect description of Alienation, as per the book).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 49
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:18:35 PST
>On 16 Mar 98 at 12:01, The Vagabond wrote:
>
>> "General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
>> subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through
>> him. If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel
>> free.
>
>Huh? Where do you get that? The only reason there is a "general
>consensus" is because information on Alienation is vague. Alienation
>is detrimental to the victim. It should not convey bonuses like no
>mass.

"Victims of alienation are invisible,[I stress]intangable, and
inaudible to those around them." - p. 216, BBB
Intangable: adj. Incapable of being touched.

>
>> >Alienation is not a beneficial power and should not be used as a
>> >substitute for invisibility or concealment.
>>
>> I agree.
>
>Do you? Not being affected by bullets and people seems like it could
>be beneficial to me.

"Drivers will not stop for them, no one talks to them, their friends
shoot through them to hit targets. Despair fills their soul."
-p. 216, BBB

>I await your clarification as to which book and what page mentions
>what you state above.

The BBB: Not just pretty pictures anymore.<g>
And just to reinterate: "The alienation power is not intended as the
kind of beneficial power of invisibility." -p.216, BBB

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I
am right."
-Ashleigh Brilliant


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 50
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:41:50 +1000
The Vagabond writes:
>>Huh? Where do you get that? The only reason there is a "general
>>consensus" is because information on Alienation is vague. Alienation
>>is detrimental to the victim. It should not convey bonuses like no
>>mass.
>
> "Victims of alienation are invisible,[I stress]intangable, and
>inaudible to those around them." - p. 216, BBB
> Intangable: adj. Incapable of being touched.


Intangable does not mean incapable of being touched, it means you don't
notice that you're touching it. Air is intangible and you touch it all the
time.

>>
>>> >Alienation is not a beneficial power and should not be used as a
>>> >substitute for invisibility or concealment.
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>
>>Do you? Not being affected by bullets and people seems like it could
>>be beneficial to me.
>
> "Drivers will not stop for them, no one talks to them, their friends
>shoot through them to hit targets. Despair fills their soul."
> -p. 216, BBB


*ahem* Where does it say that drivers not stopping for them means that they
DON'T get run over? Where does it say that the bullets pass through without
leaving big nasty holes behind?

>>I await your clarification as to which book and what page mentions
>>what you state above.
>
> The BBB: Not just pretty pictures anymore.<g>
> And just to reinterate: "The alienation power is not intended as the
>kind of beneficial power of invisibility." -p.216, BBB


With all due respect, Vagabond, I think you've misinterpreted the wording.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 51
From: SThanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:33:33 -0500
> "General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
>subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through him.
>If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel free.
>

> Again, it's not because he or she's apathetic, it's because he or she
>has no effective mass(but is not astral, mind you. Think of it as a
>really complex invisiblity spell that makes you more ghost like).

If what you are saying is true, then, even though it is considered an
attack power, it could very well be used to the alienated individual's
benefit. Consider a city spirit casting alienation on an unsuspecting
runner. He becomes intangible, unable to be seen by others, but now can
pass through walls, perhaps out of the nature spirit's domain. Unless this
power also renders the victim immobile, it seems highly unlikely that lack
of mass is the result of the power. I'm gonna have to go with the list's
prior ruling on this one - alienation renders the victim visually
intangible and unable to properly interact with his environment, but able
to take physical damage. BUT...can an alienated being still be seen in
astral? If not, no aura to target, no more spells on that bad boy. It seems
like anyway you turn it alienation can have its advantages...

Ryan
Message no. 52
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:42:43 -0500
On 17 Mar 98 at 9:41, Robert Watkins wrote:

> The Vagabond writes:
> > "Drivers will not stop for them, no one talks to them, their friends
> >shoot through them to hit targets. Despair fills their soul."
> > -p. 216, BBB
>
>
> *ahem* Where does it say that drivers not stopping for them means that they
> DON'T get run over? Where does it say that the bullets pass through
> without leaving big nasty holes behind?

It doesn't. In fact, it says that the victim can make a roll to avoid
a dangerous situation, just after the paragraph reciting examples of
such; i.e. drivers not stopping for them, and friends shooting
through them to hit targets. If they are as Vagabond suggests, no
mention of a "saving throw" would be necessary.

After re-reading it, it clearly paints a picture of the "consensus"
the list came to every other time this came up.

No point in beating a dead horse here....

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
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Message no. 53
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:12:03 PST
>The Vagabond writes:
>>>Huh? Where do you get that? The only reason there is a "general
>>>consensus" is because information on Alienation is vague. Alienation
>>>is detrimental to the victim. It should not convey bonuses like no
>>>mass.
>>
>> "Victims of alienation are invisible,[I stress]intangable, and
>>inaudible to those around them." - p. 216, BBB
>> Intangable: adj. Incapable of being touched.
>
>
>Intangable does not mean incapable of being touched, it means you don't
>notice that you're touching it. Air is intangible and you touch it all
the
>time.

Oh, please forgive me. I forgot to mention I got the definition of
intangible straight out of the Merriam Webster Dictionary. When you
write and publish a dictionary of your own, I'll listen.
So, if you can touch air, I guess it's tangible, isn't it?


>With all due respect, Vagabond, I think you've misinterpreted the
wording.

I see no further reason to banter on the subject. This dead horse
has been whipped once, I'm not going there again. If you don't like
what's in the BBB, then don't use it.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 54
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:36:30 +0100
The Vagabond said on 12:01/16 Mar 98...

> "General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
> subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through him.
> If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel free.

The Alienation power is open to immense speculation as to how it actually
works. My own interpretation is much the same as the one David posted -- I
think subjects definitely do have mass. Bullets don't pass through them,
they hit them and the shooters then wonder why they missed the intended
target.

> I don't want to open any old wounds. If the list has settled on
> something, then I'm behind it. I just don't want whoever was asking
> about Alienation think that what is on this list is cannon. He should
> know what the book says as well. As usual, YMMV.

Since you haven't been on this list for all that long, you have no way of
knowing that this question about Alienation has been asked a great many
times, and been debated almost as frequently. The "general consensus"
David mentioned has come about more or less through those discussions,
based on what it says in SRII and the PA books.

--
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Message no. 55
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:02:57 -0700
The Vagabond wrote:
/
/ >On 16 Mar 98 at 12:01, The Vagabond wrote:
/ >
/ >> "General consensus" aside, the actual power effectively gives the
/ >> subject of the power no mass. e.g. People and bullets pass through
/ >> him. If you want to tailor it to fit the needs of your group, feel
/ >> free.
/ >
/ >Huh? Where do you get that? The only reason there is a "general
/ >consensus" is because information on Alienation is vague. Alienation
/ >is detrimental to the victim. It should not convey bonuses like no
/ >mass.
/
/ "Victims of alienation are invisible,[I stress]intangable, and
/ inaudible to those around them." - p. 216, BBB
/ Intangable: adj. Incapable of being touched.

And this is were the debate starts :) Does this sentance mean that
the victim is indeed intangable, or that the victim is intangible to
those around him? Do people pass through the victim while solid
objects do not? Or is it all an illusion? FASA's wording does leave
it open to interpretation (and even that's open to debate <shrug>).

When I said "general consensus" I meant that most of the list viewed
the power as I stated. That doesn't mean that it was unanimous :) As
you've allready found out it grinds down into an "you're wrong, I'm
right" debate. Although this time it happened quicker than usual ;)

I was just expressing one view among many to the person that asked
the question. I didn't mean to imply that it was the best view or
the only view.

-David
--
"I don't think of all the misery,
but of all the beauty that still remains."
- Anne Frank
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 56
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:15:51 -0700
Gurth wrote:
/
/ The Vagabond said on 12:01/16 Mar 98...
/
/ > I don't want to open any old wounds. If the list has settled on
/ > something, then I'm behind it. I just don't want whoever was asking
/ > about Alienation think that what is on this list is cannon. He should
/ > know what the book says as well. As usual, YMMV.

Oh, the list was by no means settled :) The debate ended with the
participants agreeing to disagree.

/ Since you haven't been on this list for all that long, you have no way of
/ knowing that this question about Alienation has been asked a great many
/ times, and been debated almost as frequently. The "general consensus"
/ David mentioned has come about more or less through those discussions,
/ based on what it says in SRII and the PA books.

And that doesn't mean it was the best solution, just the most common
one. And because it was the view point that I took I couldn't
remember the other viewpoints.

-David
--
"I don't think of all the misery,
but of all the beauty that still remains."
- Anne Frank
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 57
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:35:35 +1000
The Vagabond writes:
[snip stuff about how the Vagabond thinks that victims of alienation have no
mass and that bullets go right through them, etc.]
> "Victims of alienation are invisible,[I stress]intangable, and
>inaudible to those around them." - p. 216, BBB
> Intangable: adj. Incapable of being touched.


[snip bit about alienation is not beneficial
>
> "Drivers will not stop for them, no one talks to them, their friends
>shoot through them to hit targets. Despair fills their soul."
> -p. 216, BBB
>
>>I await your clarification as to which book and what page mentions
>>what you state above.
>
> The BBB: Not just pretty pictures anymore.<g>
> And just to reinterate: "The alienation power is not intended as the
>kind of beneficial power of invisibility." -p.216, BBB


And the next paragraph reads as follows:
"The victim must achieve 1 success, using whatever Attribute or skill seems
appropriate, against the critter's Essence as the target number, in order to
avoid a dangerous situation or to get someone's attention."

Now, it seems to me that, if things like bullets go through you without
doing damage, and cars just slide through you like you were a ghost, that
there wouldn't _be_ too many dangerous situations.

Reconcile that paragraph with your views, Vagabond.

Again, with all due respect (ah, that's such a nice phrase), I think you
have misinterpreted the rules.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 58
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alienation
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1000
It's not fair... I just manage to get another decent argument going after
the space thread died, and Vagabond goes and sets nomail! Oh well, I'll
resend it after he gets back... :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Alienation, you may also be interested in:

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