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Message no. 1
From: Jeremy Smith <jsmith@*****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 17:18:39 -0500
John Stawartz writes
>I was wondering if you would rate this [allergy to perfumes] as a common
>allergen or an uncommon allergen.

Well, I would definitely call that common. I know several people that
are allergic to perfumes. Also, there are all sorts of hypo-allergenic
products out there because of such problems as irritations to perfumes,
dyes, etc.

_I_ even used to be allergic to perfumes!! (I would itch like crazy if
any got on me)

As far as a neato/weird/off-the-wall allergy is concerned, try gunsmoke,
lead, sunlight (like an owl shaman, right?).

Oh well, laterz

Jeremy
Message no. 2
From: LISETTE M THERIOT <psy_lmt@***.LAMAR.EDU>
Subject: allergies
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 17:21:18 -0600
Are allergies things like pollutints, or are they things like carbon menoxide,
you know, specific?
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: allergies
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 20:45:21 -0500
>>>>> "LISETTE" == LISETTE M THERIOT
<psy_lmt@***.LAMAR.EDU> writes:

LISETTE> Are allergies things like pollutints, or are they things like
LISETTE> carbon menoxide, you know, specific?

[Sorry, but I seem to be in a pedantic mood this weekend]

In the medical context, an allergy is anything that triggers a reaction in
the immune system; an intolerance is similar to an allergy except that it
triggers a reaction in some other physiological system (rashes are a common
symptom of intolerances). Allergies and intolerances tend to be to specific
things: lactic acid, various pollens (note: most people who are allergic to
pollen actually have numerous allergies covering just about every species
of pollen, and often dust, too), one of the chemicals that McDonald's uses
in their pickles, etc. It's even possible to be allergic to or have an
intolerance to certain quantities of something (I myself have an
intolerance to lactic acid; if I consume ``too much,'' my skin breaks out
in a nasty, itchy rash).

In the game context, the same applies. An allergy is to a particular thing
or substance: plastic, iron, sunlight, etc. However, if a particular thing
or substance is part of a larger category (pollen, pollution), at the GM's
discretion it may or may not be worth an extra bonus (allergic to pollen
probably isn't worth anything extra; though allergic to pollution in
general, as there so many forms of it, is probably worth quite a bit more).

Being allergic to pollution at greater than the nuisance level is going to
be crippling in 2050, so I suggest you avoid taking it.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: allergies
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 12:46:26 +0100
>Are allergies things like pollutints, or are they things like carbon menoxide,
>you know, specific?

They're as broad as you want to interpret them, IMHO. I feel that, if a
character is allergic to pollutants, anything what is normally considered to
be a pollutant irritates him/her to a certain extent. I don't think you
would say "I've got an allergy for CFCs only."


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: allergies
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:27:19 +0930
>
> They're as broad as you want to interpret them, IMHO. I feel that, if a
> character is allergic to pollutants, anything what is normally considered to
> be a pollutant irritates him/her to a certain extent. I don't think you
> would say "I've got an allergy for CFCs only."
>

I generally have pollutants be atmospheric pollutants, (things like sulpher
dioxide) for characters, and most land based critters. Sea going critters,
I tend to give industrial effluents to.

A good example of someone allergic to pollutants would be asthmatics. You
know, the people who are told to stay home on those thick smog days? (Not
that we get them here... no industry to speak of.)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 6
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 16:40:05 GMT
> Allergies, if at all possible, will not
> be in my campaign. And if they are on some existing characters... then
> they'll pay for them. All it takes is one guy to see that a silver blade
> did a number on a runner to get the word out on the street. Suddenly
> everyone who has to deal with the guy is carrying silver bullets or somesuch.

One of Hazel's characters was allergic to plastic. That makes her life
extremely difficult. Just look around you as you read this: never mind the
plastic keys and on/off switch for your computer. Cotton/polyester
underwear? ;-) Nylon zippers? Plastic buttons?

Okay, buy some leather gloves...which someone accidentally stitched with
nylon thread. Ouch. Emergency medical treatment? Look how much
medical gear today includes plastic components. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
Handled properly an allergy can dominate a character and really direct
its development: my psychotic Elven street samurai (now retired) had
a Severe allergy to sunlight, titanium bone lacing, and muscle augmentation.
And endless problems with vigilantes trying to hammer a stake through
her heart because she was so obviously a vampire! Having to look like
The Mummy to go out in daylight pales by comparison...

Allergies are good if properly used. Of course, if you're allergic to
silver, you could try some misdirection on that score... get the money
to wear platinum jewelry and pass it off as silver. You're wearing it,
so you can't be allergic to it, right? But then in a classy restaurant
they serve you...with silver cutlery. Ouch.

Lots of electronic conductors are silver-plated for the good conductivity.
Photography gets interesting with all those silver halides ;-) Do some
research and throw some surprises at the player. Remember, a bonus at
creation only really helps in the early days... but an allergy is for life,
not just for Christmas!

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: "Mark D. Fender" <mfender@******.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 18:32:11 -0500
y


On Sat, 22 Apr 1995, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:

> Lots of electronic conductors are silver-plated for the good conductivity.
> Photography gets interesting with all those silver halides ;-) Do some
> research and throw some surprises at the player. Remember, a bonus at
> creation only really helps in the early days... but an allergy is for life,
> not just for Christmas!
>
Reiterate that allergy for life bit. A player of mine once decided to be
allergic to cats. Bad move. I made the principal protagonist a lBackberry
Cat. Next game session, a new guy joined who made a cat shaman. Poor
metahuman.
Allergies were put there to help your character by hindering him. Take
the easy route and you will be hindered in my game.

PAX
Mark Fender
Death
Scurge
"It is not that I succeed, but that everyone else fail."--Attila the Hun
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:42:07 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> [Really cool stuff on exploiting PCs allergies]
>
> Photography gets interesting with all those silver halides ;-)

I've always ruled that an allergy to a particular element only applied to
the element in its "pure" form (OK, nothing's ever pure, but I mean metallic
silver as compared to silver nitride). Else _any_ elemental allergy will
probably kill you, since there will be compounds of the particular element
you are allergic to almost everywhere. It'd suck pretty bad when you had an
allergy to Sodium (not that I'd allow it) and used soap to wash your hands
(soap is a surfactant, and often one which contains the Na+ ion I think -
correct me if I'm wrong). It'd just get too deadly if the allergic element
effected you in all it's myriad of chemical compounds and forms. In fact,
you'd probably die, since trace amounts of all elements would be present in
the reacted form (as in ions) in _everything_.

An allergy to pollutants obviously includes things such as CO (Carbon
Monoxide). Is it that the metahuman has an allergy to Carbon and Oxygen as
well? I doubt it (otherwise they'd be allergic to themselves <grin>). So why
should an allergy to Silver apply to silver in the form of AgNO3 (Silver
Nitrate)? I'm not up to date on my nutrition, but is it not possible that
many of the substances taken as allergies are actually _required_ in the
dietry intake as trace elements? Sure, if you touch a chunk of Iron you
start to bubble and hiss, but if you consume Iron (not that I know Iron is a
required trace element, just assuming that it is) in the form of a compound,
then it won't harm you (since it is - assume it is for the sake of the
argument if it really isn't - a required trace element, then it would really
really suck to be allergic to it [like you'd die]).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 12:36:25 +0200
[on plastic allergy]
>Okay, buy some leather gloves...which someone accidentally stitched with
>nylon thread. Ouch. Emergency medical treatment? Look how much
>medical gear today includes plastic components. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

It can get worse: wear a plastic raincoat (so that it doesn't touch your
skin), and have someone shoot buckshot at you...


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Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 09:22:29 -0400
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

Gurth> It can get worse: wear a plastic raincoat (so that it doesn't touch
Gurth> your skin), and have someone shoot buckshot at you...

Anyone with an allergy to plastics should be wearing oilskin in the rain.
Heck, I have a really nice oilskin drover that I wear in the rain and I
*don't* have such an allergy :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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Message no. 11
From: "Ravene Ladrona (Martin Roth)" <roth@****.CCDS.CHARLOTTE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:33:29 -0400
Hmmmm, in my campaign, one of the charcaters has an allergy to alchohal.
As in liquor. A sever reaction to a common :) material. How much would
alchohal vapor affect him?

Technology Incarnate
DiscoTech
Message no. 12
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 12:38:54 GMT
> I've always ruled that an allergy to a particular element only applied to
> the element in its "pure" form (OK, nothing's ever pure, but I mean
metallic
> silver as compared to silver nitride). Else _any_ elemental allergy will
> probably kill you, since there will be compounds of the particular element
> you are allergic to almost everywhere. It'd suck pretty bad when you had an
> allergy to Sodium (not that I'd allow it) and used soap to wash your hands
> (soap is a surfactant, and often one which contains the Na+ ion I think -
> correct me if I'm wrong). It'd just get too deadly if the allergic element
> effected you in all it's myriad of chemical compounds and forms. In fact,
> you'd probably die, since trace amounts of all elements would be present in
> the reacted form (as in ions) in _everything_.

Depends - this might get us back to the "magic depends on what you believe"
aspect. Silver has been linked to photography for so long, anyone handling
traditional photographic film (itself rare in 2056, I'll bet) that by
that token I'd expect someone with a Severe allergy to come out in a rash.
Not enough to set off a lower allergy and not enough to do damage. (Even
though the film might contail no silver at all ;-) )

Type in haste, elaborate at leisure I guess :-)

> An allergy to pollutants obviously includes things such as CO (Carbon
> Monoxide). Is it that the metahuman has an allergy to Carbon and Oxygen as
> well? I doubt it (otherwise they'd be allergic to themselves <grin>). So why
> should an allergy to Silver apply to silver in the form of AgNO3 (Silver
> Nitrate)?

If you have hayfever, are you individually allergic to carbon, oxygen,
hydrogen and nitrogen? Or even to protein in general? Pure silver is too
rare, IMO, to make a good allergy, so I cheated and cranked it up by that.
I don't extend sunlight to cover X-rays because a severe allergy to sunlight
already sucks hard if properly played: plastic and iron are so universal the
player doesn't need any more pain: and I don't allow pollutants because it's
either too broad or too narrow, and extremely hard to define.

> I'm not up to date on my nutrition, but is it not possible that
> many of the substances taken as allergies are actually _required_ in the
> dietry intake as trace elements? Sure, if you touch a chunk of Iron you
> start to bubble and hiss, but if you consume Iron (not that I know Iron is a
> required trace element, just assuming that it is) in the form of a compound,
> then it won't harm you (since it is - assume it is for the sake of the
> argument if it really isn't - a required trace element, then it would really
> really suck to be allergic to it [like you'd die]).

True - without iron you can't make haemoglobin. The points are all entirely
valid and I account for them by waving the "GM says" wand. Allergy to silver
just seemed underpowered, especially given that it was a Severe.

For a nuisance allergy, sure: pure silver is the only thing to set it off.
My wife is allergic to nickel, and some (not all) nickel jewelry causes a
rash. On the other hand she can handle cupronickel coinage with no trouble
at all. But for the "pure-silver-makes-you-smoke-burn-and-blister" types
like shapeshifters, it seemed interesting to extend it a little.

Now imagine a vampire with a Severe allergy to iron.... :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 09:58:51 +1000
Ravene Ladrona writes:

> Hmmmm, in my campaign, one of the charcaters has an allergy to alchohal.
> As in liquor. A sever reaction to a common :) material. How much would
> alchohal vapor affect him?

Well, alcohol wouldn't be as common as it is now days for a start (synthetic
substitutes seem to be pretty common from what I read). But assuming they
came into contact with real alcohol vapours, then it would probably be a
scaled down reaction compared to the liquid alcohol reaction. After all, the
poor sod would come into contact with a lot less of the stuff than if it
were in the liquid phase. Perhaps scale the reaction severity down one
level. But if you're feeling particularily nasty, then don't. And if there
was sufficient vapour to form a mist, then the reaction would easily be as
severe as normal.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 11:23:01 +0200
>Hmmmm, in my campaign, one of the charcaters has an allergy to alchohal.
>As in liquor. A sever reaction to a common :) material. How much would
>alchohal vapor affect him?

The vapor is alcohol, so it would affect him just the same as pouring a
glass of whatever down his throat. Well, maybe not because of the smaller
dosage, but I'd say he gets the normal allergic reaction.


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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 11:23:17 +0200
>Well, alcohol wouldn't be as common as it is now days for a start (synthetic
>substitutes seem to be pretty common from what I read). But assuming they
>came into contact with real alcohol vapours,

I think he means he's allergic to ethanol (C2H5OH), which can be easily made
synthetically and would be the exact same substance you'll find in beer,
wine, wodka, and so on. Maybe he's even allergic to _all_ alcohols...


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Message no. 16
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 10:48:56 +6000
Gurth wrote:
>I think he means he's allergic to ethanol (C2H5OH), which can be easily made
>synthetically and would be the exact same substance you'll find in beer,
>wine, wodka, and so on. Maybe he's even allergic to _all_ alcohols...

Ouch.. then again maybe he's dead? :)

Stick to ethanol, I would have thought vapour is more nasty than liquid.
sure the dosage is weaker but it gets everywhere - skin, lungs, eyes
not a pleasant experience :)

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 17
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 20:10:53 +1000
Gurth writes:

> I think he means he's allergic to ethanol (C2H5OH), which can be easily made
> synthetically and would be the exact same substance you'll find in beer,
> wine, wodka, and so on. Maybe he's even allergic to _all_ alcohols...

I've often wondered what FASA (and their writers) meant by the "synthahol"
they have replaced cheap alcohols with. I'd have thought what you say, that
the ethanol could be easily synthesised. Although no doubt there is more to
the flavour of an alcohol than just the ethanol part (well, obviously there
is, otherwise all alcohol's would taste the same). But is it not the ethanol
which causes such things as the liver damage? Because FASA indicate that
synthahol does not have the adverse side effects that "real" alcohol does
(which would mean, I'm assuming, that it does not have the actual ethanol
content that real alcohols do. Or is it some other substance in alcohols
which causes things such as liver damage?).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 18
From: GR DIRK KENNETH W <DIRKKENN@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 13:22:05 MST
Damion writes:
> But is it not the ethanol which causes such things as the liver
> dammage? Because FASA indicates that synthahol does not have
> the adverse side effects that "real" alcohol does (which would
> mean, I'm assuming, that it does not have the actual ethanol
> content that real alcohols do. Or is it some other substance
> in alcohols which causes such things as liver dammage?).

It is ethanol that causes liver dammage (if taken chronically).
It can also cause other problems like brain dammage, perminent
disturbances in balance, and heart problems.

IMHO the synthahol would probably contain little if any alcohol.
So it needs to be distinguished whether the character is allergic
to alcohol or synthahol.

A severe allergy to alcohol could be very bad. The person would
not only have a reaction to drinking ethanol, but would have
serious problems if touching a surface that had just been cleaned
with isopropyl alcohol. What if the person accidentally drinks
(or is poisoned by) methanol? A mugful of the stuff will kill
a normal person fairly quickly (or at least leave them blind).
Probably would have some nasty effects if this character were
sprayed with the stuff using and Ares Squirt. *evil grin*

-DrugDoc
(aka Ken Dirk)
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:12:06 +0200
>I've often wondered what FASA (and their writers) meant by the "synthahol"
>they have replaced cheap alcohols with.

I always thought "synthahol" is simply some factory-produced alcoholic
beverage: instead of making wine by squashing grapes, adding sugar, and
leaving them be for a few months, I think they make it by throwing the right
substances together in a large kettle, stir, and out comes "wine."

>I'd have thought what you say, that
>the ethanol could be easily synthesised.

Trust me on this one. This is one thing you'll pick up in a chemical
engineering course (even if you only do one year): most alcohols are easy
enough to make synthetically.

>Although no doubt there is more to
>the flavour of an alcohol than just the ethanol part (well, obviously there
>is, otherwise all alcohol's would taste the same). But is it not the ethanol
>which causes such things as the liver damage?

AFAIK, yes. Too high a dosage is definitely bad for your general health in
other ways as well. The alcohol itself doesn't really contribute to the
taste I gather (I don't drink -- don't know why really), it's all the stuff
around it.

>Because FASA indicate that
>synthahol does not have the adverse side effects that "real" alcohol does
>(which would mean, I'm assuming, that it does not have the actual ethanol
>content that real alcohols do. Or is it some other substance in alcohols
>which causes things such as liver damage?).

I have little doubt you can build some or other substance that tastes the
same as ethanol but doesn't damage your liver. Better living through
chemistry, right? :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:12:39 +0200
> A severe allergy to alcohol could be very bad. The person would
> not only have a reaction to drinking ethanol, but would have
> serious problems if touching a surface that had just been cleaned
> with isopropyl alcohol. What if the person accidentally drinks
> (or is poisoned by) methanol? A mugful of the stuff will kill
> a normal person fairly quickly (or at least leave them blind).

Methanol does not blind AFAIK. It's just "very toxic" according to my BINAS
booklet (any Dutch folks who've done physics on HAVO/VWO should know what
I'm talking about -- oops, I think I'm talking to myself here :) Ethanol is
described as just "toxic." Maybe you're confusing methanol with cheap
cleaning alcohol -- that has an added poison that makes you go blind so
people don't buy it to get drunk on.
Also, if you're allergic to ethanol, I think methanol wouldn't cause such a
big reaction. The difference is as follows:

methanol (CH3OH) ethanol (C2H5OH)

H H H
| | |
H-C-OH H-C-C-OH
| | |
H H H

As you can see, they're different. Not vastly different, but different
enough to be able to cause different reactions in the human body.


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Message no. 21
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 08:17:06 GMT
> I've often wondered what FASA (and their writers) meant by the
> "synthahol" they have replaced cheap alcohols with. I'd have thought what
> you say, that the ethanol could be easily synthesised. Although no doubt
> there is more to the flavour of an alcohol than just the ethanol part
> (well, obviously there is, otherwise all alcohol's would taste the same).
> But is it not the ethanol which causes such things as the liver damage?
> Because FASA indicate that
> synthahol does not have the adverse side effects that "real" alcohol does
> (which would mean, I'm assuming, that it does not have the actual ethanol
> content that real alcohols do. Or is it some other substance in alcohols
> which causes things such as liver damage?).

The problem is that a) it's the alcohol that makes you get drunk, i.e. the
main reason you consume beer, wine, whiskey etc. ;-) b) it's the alcohol
that causes the toxic side-effects.

I think the "synthahol" refers to the fact that most 2050s alcoholic
beverages have never seen grain or fruit except on the label :-) The
alcohol is synthesised, rather than fermented and distilled, and the
flavour is added mechanically. So same chemistry, different origin.

Some of the heavy oils in (for instance) red wine are what give you
hangovers, but unfortunately they are also what give it the flavour. I'd
guess a good synthahol is chemically almost identical to the "real" drink
it replaces. A cheap one is just ethanol, water and a pinch of Today's
Special Flavour...

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 22
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:13:28 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> The problem is that a) it's the alcohol that makes you get drunk, i.e. the
> main reason you consume beer, wine, whiskey etc. ;-) b) it's the alcohol
> that causes the toxic side-effects.
>
> I think the "synthahol" refers to the fact that most 2050s alcoholic
> beverages have never seen grain or fruit except on the label :-) The
> alcohol is synthesised, rather than fermented and distilled, and the
> flavour is added mechanically. So same chemistry, different origin.

Yeah, that's what I would have assumed. But how come, then, synthahol
doesn't have any of the damaging side effects (namely liver damage) that the
real stuff does?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 23
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:14:53 -0400
>>>>> "Damion" == Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
writes:

Damion> Yeah, that's what I would have assumed. But how come, then,
Damion> synthahol doesn't have any of the damaging side effects (namely
Damion> liver damage) that the real stuff does?

If it's real alchohol, then it will damage the liver. If it's a chemical
with similar effects but none of the side effects, then it's not alchohol
(maybe an isomer? chemistry isn't one of my strong suits). Or, realising
that "alchohol" is actually a family of substances (ethanol, methanol,
etc.) with varying degrees of toxicity, synthahol may be just another
member of the family.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 24
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 17:03:14 +0200
On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> If it's real alchohol, then it will damage the liver. If it's a chemical
> with similar effects but none of the side effects, then it's not alchohol
> (maybe an isomer? chemistry isn't one of my strong suits). Or, realising
> that "alchohol" is actually a family of substances (ethanol, methanol,
> etc.) with varying degrees of toxicity, synthahol may be just another
> member of the family.

I think this discussion is aiming at the wrong point. Yes,
alcohol is a group of hydrocarbons, and the second simplest one at that
(having the formula C2H5OH). Now, this simplicity makes for a molecule
that is really hard to duplicate in a form that allows for the "good"
effects to work, but the "bad" inhibited. Actually, I think the whole
molecule is bonded to the receptors, which trigger both sympathetic and
parasympathetic reactions (I'm not read up on this right now, but I could
go home and reach for that blockbuster of a book, The Cell (5th ed.) -
yes, it says it all). So a "synthahol" would have an ethanol mimic
(C2H4OH) on one end of a complex chain to work. Maybe it wold be cheaper
to produce (but I very much doubt that!), but it would not separate the
two reactions. As for other alcohols to be used:

Methanol - I'ts poisonous!
Propanol - You'd actually drink something used in petrol?
Buthanol - Even worse!

Bottom line: "synthahol" is a scam, in my book.

-Jonas
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:13:34 +0200
>If it's real alchohol, then it will damage the liver. If it's a chemical
>with similar effects but none of the side effects, then it's not alchohol
>(maybe an isomer? chemistry isn't one of my strong suits).

I think it'd be something like an enantiomer. Or no, that's not possible
with C2H5OH because you need a different group on each side of the C-atom
for those.
Just in case anybody's wondering, enantiomers are two substances that are
made up of the same atoms in the same places, but some bits are mirrored if
you compare the two. To keep it simple, of many substance the R-variant
(which bends light to the right) will be accepted by the body, while the
S-variant is not. This is how "diet" sugar-substitutes work: the S-variant
gives the same taste as normal sugar, but your body doesn't want it so it
goes straight into the urine instead of being stored in your body.

>Or, realising
>that "alchohol" is actually a family of substances (ethanol, methanol,
>etc.) with varying degrees of toxicity, synthahol may be just another
>member of the family.

Any substance with an OH-group is an alcohol (unless, there are some other
things attached to the C-atom with the OH-group, like a it being a COOH
group). That means you can have a virtually infinite number of alcohols;
C45H91OH is just as much an alcohol as C613H1225OH or C2H5OH :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What the hell am I trying to say?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 26
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:57:18 +0200
> Damion> Yeah, that's what I would have assumed. But how come, then,
> Damion> synthahol doesn't have any of the damaging side effects (namely
> Damion> liver damage) that the real stuff does?
>
> If it's real alchohol, then it will damage the liver. If it's a chemical
> with similar effects but none of the side effects, then it's not alchohol
> (maybe an isomer? chemistry isn't one of my strong suits).

Isomers have got noting to do with it chummer, they are more like
Physics :)

> Or, realising
> that "alchohol" is actually a family of substances (ethanol, methanol,
> etc.) with varying degrees of toxicity, synthahol may be just another
> member of the family.

No alcohols tend to be thick and oily as far as I can remember
(any chem-geek care to back me up ?) I figure that synthahol is
simply a totally different subsatnce that just has a similar
taste and maybe some of the effects of ethanol.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:59:51 +0200
> If it's real alchohol, then it will damage the liver. If it's a chemical
> with similar effects but none of the side effects, then it's not alchohol
> (maybe an isomer? chemistry isn't one of my strong suits). Or, realising

ARGHH sorry about my previous post, isomers couls definitely have something
to do with it - I guess that was one munchie too many :) Oh well...

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:31:23 +0200
> No alcohols tend to be thick and oily as far as I can remember
>(any chem-geek care to back me up ?)

Ethanol in its purest form (99.999% or so) is at least as thin as water,
probably even a bit more.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Beware of unfamiliar chickens
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 29
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 17:43:12 +0200
> > No alcohols tend to be thick and oily as far as I can remember
> >(any chem-geek care to back me up ?)
>
> Ethanol in its purest form (99.999% or so) is at least as thin as water,
> probably even a bit more.

But ethanol is the exception there isnt it? as the molecules get bigger
(more carbon) the properties on the alcohols tend to change no ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Allergies
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:20:51 +0100
L Canthros said on 18:01/ 1 May 97...

> >Don't forget that "metal" is not the same as "iron." You
could very well
> >make hand razors out of titanium, which doesn't contain iron (unlike
> >steel, which can contain anything from about 60% to 99% iron). Such metals
> >wouldn't trigger the allergic reaction.
>
> And titanium is more expensive than steel, less common than iron, etc.

Yeah, but that doesn't stop anyone from building anything from fighter
aircraft to wristwatches from it, does it? For cyberware, it'd be just
about ideal -- it's light and strong, unlike steel which is only strong,
or aluminum which is only light.

> >It could be asking for disaster, though. Sort of like wearing a plastic
> >raincoat over your other clothes when you have a plastic allergy (if
> >it's not touching your skin anywhere, it should be fine), and then getting
> >a load of buckshot fired into you...
>
> Ow. I'll have to remember that:)

It's something one of the players said the first time I ran SR for the
people I played AD&D with at the time...

> And, of course, nearly everything is made of synthetic materials in SR,
> including clothes, the outer shells of many firearms, weapon handles,
> some weapons, pill bottles, cyberdeck casings, carpets, bed sheets,
> matresses, pillows, large portions of civilian vehicles, etc, etc>:)

You'd have to go out of your way to find those kinds of items that don't
give allergic reactions, yeah. It'd mean finding cotton or wool clothes,
weapons with wood furniture instead of plastic, glass bottles, and so on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know that that sounds dumb.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 31
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:42:29 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Allergies

> > And titanium is more expensive than steel, less common than iron, etc.
>
> Yeah, but that doesn't stop anyone from building anything from fighter
> aircraft to wristwatches from it, does it? For cyberware, it'd be just
> about ideal -- it's light and strong, unlike steel which is only strong,
> or aluminum which is only light.

I always just assumed that cyberware was made of the lightest,
strongest material available. (silly me) I mean, it's not like cost
is a concern here. I'd expect most cyberware such as spurs to be
made of an alloy or plastic.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:35:11 +0100
Mark E. Manhardt said on 17:42/ 2 May 97...

> I always just assumed that cyberware was made of the lightest,
> strongest material available. (silly me) I mean, it's not like cost
> is a concern here. I'd expect most cyberware such as spurs to be
> made of an alloy or plastic.

That's the same thing I always thought. Cyberware has to be light, because
the (meta)human body isn't all that heavy either compared to how strong it
is. IMHO you'd want a cyberarm, for instance, to have about the same mass
as the normal arm it replaces, to avoid all kinds of strain-related
injuries and to keep the user balanced -- "Look mommy, that man is leaning
to the right all the time! Does he have a cyberarm?" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know that that sounds dumb.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 33
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:48:49 +0100
On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gurth wrote:

> > And, of course, nearly everything is made of synthetic materials in SR,
> > including clothes, the outer shells of many firearms, weapon handles,
> > some weapons, pill bottles, cyberdeck casings, carpets, bed sheets,
> > matresses, pillows, large portions of civilian vehicles, etc, etc>:)
>
> You'd have to go out of your way to find those kinds of items that don't
> give allergic reactions, yeah. It'd mean finding cotton or wool clothes,
> weapons with wood furniture instead of plastic, glass bottles, and so on.

In teh SSC it allows you to buy hypoallergenic versions of teh weapons and
equipment for approximately 150% of cost (IIRC).

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:32:18 +0100
The Digital Mage said on 15:48/ 4 May 97...

> > You'd have to go out of your way to find those kinds of items that don't
> > give allergic reactions, yeah. It'd mean finding cotton or wool clothes,
> > weapons with wood furniture instead of plastic, glass bottles, and so on.
>
> In teh SSC it allows you to buy hypoallergenic versions of teh weapons and
> equipment for approximately 150% of cost (IIRC).

I'm aware of that line, though it's a bit hidden in the intro blurb so not
everybody may have read it. I was more referring to the fact that SR books
tell us that natural materials are hard to find in the 2050s -- real wood
is described as something just about only the rich can afford, for
example.

However, there _is_ an easy way around nearly any allergic reaction, at
least when it comes to solid objects: paint or varnish them. Put a good
layer of paint, of which you've prevously determined it won't give you an
allergic reaction, over any part of the item you can touch.
This won't work for clothes, unless you don't care about being able to
set them up straight without supports, but for other equipment it would be
relatively easy to do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's the story of how we run our lives.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 35
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:33:36 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Allergies

> However, there _is_ an easy way around nearly any allergic reaction, at
> least when it comes to solid objects: paint or varnish them. Put a good
> layer of paint, of which you've prevously determined it won't give you an
> allergic reaction, over any part of the item you can touch.

Good thought...I always used gloves, myself. The thought of a neon
red roomsweeper isn't bad though....

> This won't work for clothes, unless you don't care about being able to
> set them up straight without supports, but for other equipment it would be
> relatively easy to do.

Depends on what you wear under it. If you wear a bodysuit (spandex,
maybe) you can avoid most of those problems. Course, getting shot,
stabbed, etc would suck, but you take your chances.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 36
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:03:59 +0100
In article <199705050830.KAA13879@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> rambled on endlessly about Allergies

>I'm aware of that line, though it's a bit hidden in the intro blurb so not
>everybody may have read it. I was more referring to the fact that SR books
>tell us that natural materials are hard to find in the 2050s -- real wood
>is described as something just about only the rich can afford, for
>example.

Solid Wood furniture maybe, but I seem to recall that Kobe park, and
others in Seattle, contain trees, these to the best of my knowledge are
made of wood, as are the things growing all over NAN and Tir territory.
:) Being allergic to wood, does not necessarily mean that it's not
possible to encounter the material. In our day and age, wood is still a
popular material in homes, whether it be chipboard cupboards in the
kitchen or an oak dining table. It's everywhere. Shadowrun occurs
approximately 60 years into the future, I really can't accept that all
wooden furniture will have completely disappeared in that time. yes,
chrome and plastics would probably be the norm, but these cost money.
For cheap motels and doss houses it would be easier for the landlord to
pick furniture from the local garbage tip, which means there's a good
chance that wooden framed beds, or wardrobes would be available, also,
floors, has every building in Seattle had it's floor replaced, again one
of the most common types of flooring, is wood, either in the form of
panels or chipboard sheets... For someone with a natural allergy, life
could be seriously difficult.

Other natural materials are the same, OK, so cotton and wool is rare,
does that mean everybody wears nylon socks, shirts, underwear etc?
Clothes wear out, they are given to charities or dumped, or handed out
to jumble sales and such like, which means that the average bum crashed
next to a dumpster may still be wearing natural materials, just not good
quality. I personally would go naked (not a nice sight) before wearing
man made materials next to my skin.

Leather and furs, definately rare, wool possibly rare, but I'd like to
know what happened to the millions of sheep across the world that made
wool is so rare, and cotton. Very little of what is purchased in todays
stores is 100% cotton, unless you want to pay extra for it, but that
doesn't mean it's so prohibitively expensive that people can't buy a
pair of cotton undies. A cotton shirt, or a good pair of slacks, yeah,
that might be expensive. But the chances of purchasing clothing or
materials that contain a percentage of the material, I should think are
still quite good.

As regards other allergies like silver, etc. We have ways around
allergies now, in SR terms, with different types of allergies around,
it's likely there will be "measures" available to combat some if not all
of those allergies, sunblock and wide brimmed hats for vampires for
example <joke>, the cost of the treatment determining it's
effectiveness. Allergies to dust and pollen are difficult to beat, but
not impossible.


My opinion is mine, and mine alone. It is not intended as a flame or as
an attitude of right and wrong, it is and always will be, simply *my*
_opinion_ :)
--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:08:40 +0100
Mark E. Manhardt said on 8:33/ 5 May 97...

> Good thought...I always used gloves, myself. The thought of a neon
> red roomsweeper isn't bad though....

I was reading through an issue of a Dutch shooting magazine today, and it
had an article about camo-painting rifles... Not much difference between
that and putting on some designer colors, really.

[clothes & allergies]
> Depends on what you wear under it. If you wear a bodysuit (spandex,
> maybe) you can avoid most of those problems. Course, getting shot,
> stabbed, etc would suck, but you take your chances.

How many GMs remember to put a character with an Iron allery through an
allergic reaction when (s)he takes damage from a bladed weapon? I'd
probably forget, but then, I don't think anyone's taken an Iron allergy in
my game so far.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's the story of how we run our lives.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 38
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:33:36 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Allergies

> That's the same thing I always thought. Cyberware has to be light, because
> the (meta)human body isn't all that heavy either compared to how strong it
> is. IMHO you'd want a cyberarm, for instance, to have about the same mass
> as the normal arm it replaces, to avoid all kinds of strain-related
> injuries and to keep the user balanced -- "Look mommy, that man is leaning
> to the right all the time! Does he have a cyberarm?" :)

Oh, definately. I think it was cyberpunk that I stripped some rules
about balance and overstress due to cyberlimbs. Could'a been
somewhere else, though.

Anyway, I use those rules on occasion when a character first gets
that new whiz bang toy. I figure that after you've had the part for
a while, you subconciously remember the limits. Generally, I use
this only when they get a huge strength enhancement or something.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 39
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:13:11 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Allergies

> How many GMs remember to put a character with an Iron allery through an
> allergic reaction when (s)he takes damage from a bladed weapon? I'd
> probably forget, but then, I don't think anyone's taken an Iron allergy in
> my game so far.

IIRC Katanas, at least, are not steel in the equipment description
(my books are in a box somewhere.) You have a valid point, though.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 40
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:04:19 EDT
On Thu, 8 May 1997 10:13:11 +0000 "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
writes:
>> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>> Organization: Plastic Warriors
>> Subject: Re: Allergies
>
>> How many GMs remember to put a character with an Iron allery through
an
>> allergic reaction when (s)he takes damage from a bladed weapon? I'd
>> probably forget, but then, I don't think anyone's taken an Iron
allergy in
>> my game so far.
>
>IIRC Katanas, at least, are not steel in the equipment description
>(my books are in a box somewhere.) You have a valid point, though.

That doesn't seem right, mainly 'cause steel is cheaper than a host of
other materials, unless you want to amke the weapon of densiplast or
macroplast or whatever the super-high-impact plastic is. Of course, not
many plastics hold an edge very well. And would melt when you attempted
to dikote them. Which katanas, it was implied, do not.

--
-Canthros-the-slightly-confused
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:47:07 +0100
L Canthros said on 22:04/ 8 May 97...

> >IIRC Katanas, at least, are not steel in the equipment description
> >(my books are in a box somewhere.) You have a valid point, though.
>
> That doesn't seem right, mainly 'cause steel is cheaper than a host of
> other materials, unless you want to amke the weapon of densiplast or
> macroplast or whatever the super-high-impact plastic is. Of course, not
> many plastics hold an edge very well. And would melt when you attempted
> to dikote them. Which katanas, it was implied, do not.

SRII doesn't state what katanas are made from, so I guess it's safe to
assume they're still steel like they have been for the last 500 years or
so.

You could make them from some ceramic stuff, it'd be better than plastic
in some respects because it won't melt, but I think it would shatter
where plastic would bend.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 42
From: Ullrich Jans <ujans@*******.POND.INKA.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:11:53 +0200
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Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
> L Canthros said on 22:04/ 8 May 97...

> > That doesn't seem right, mainly 'cause steel is cheaper than a host of
> > other materials, unless you want to amke the weapon of densiplast or
> > macroplast or whatever the super-high-impact plastic is. Of course, not
> > many plastics hold an edge very well. And would melt when you attempted
> > to dikote them. Which katanas, it was implied, do not.

Cheaper? Forget that... if you want a decent Katana, it's expensive, no
matter what you use... the cheapo ones are useless, they get dents or
break whenever you hit something...

> SRII doesn't state what katanas are made from, so I guess it's safe to
> assume they're still steel like they have been for the last 500 years or
> so.

> You could make them from some ceramic stuff, it'd be better than plastic
> in some respects because it won't melt, but I think it would shatter
> where plastic would bend.

Well.. at least today Katanas are still made of steel. But there are
different methods for hardening the steel. The cheap one ist just normal
hardening, as you would do with any kind of armor, knife, etc.

For the expensive one, serveral hundred layers of different types of
steel are forged and folded into a single blade. (I don't know the
english word for that kind of blade, in german it's "Damaszener Klinge".)
It's really expensive (about $5000 and up for a Katana) to make such a
blade, but it's worth it. (Anyone seen 'Bodyguard'? The scene when she
visits him at home and points that Katana at him...)

So, I think, Katanas are still made of steel.

regards, ulli

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Message no. 43
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:11:05 EDT
On Wed, 14 May 1997 15:11:53 +0200 Ullrich Jans
<ujans@*******.POND.INKA.DE> writes:
<snipped myself saying that a steel katana was cheaper (meaning lower
price, not necessarily lower quality) than one made of 'other materials'>
>Cheaper? Forget that... if you want a decent Katana, it's expensive, no
>matter what you use... the cheapo ones are useless, they get dents or
>break whenever you hit something...

But it's still cheaper and easier to make a katana (or any sword, for
that matter) from steel, than it is to make it from a ceramic,
titanium-alloy, etc. as such materials are expensive in _raw_ form,
aren't easy to work, require special tools, equipment, etc to work, etc
etc. You can make a sword from something like titanium or zircon oxide
ceramic, but it isn't cheap, it isn't easy, and it requires special
equipment. All of which add in to increased cost for the final recepient.


<snip Gurth speculating on what katanas might be made of, and Ullrich on
cheap katanas>

>For the expensive one, serveral hundred layers of different types of
>steel are forged and folded into a single blade. (I don't know the
>english word for that kind of blade, in german it's "Damaszener
Klinge".)
>It's really expensive (about $5000 and up for a Katana) to make such a
>blade, but it's worth it. (Anyone seen 'Bodyguard'? The scene when she
>visits him at home and points that Katana at him...)

Didn't see 'Bodyguard', also didn't know that a *real* katana went for
that much. <sigh> one more dream down the proverbial tube.


>So, I think, Katanas are still made of steel.

Actually, I'd be surprised if they were always steel. I can see a market
for Macroplast knives, at the least, and ceramics are certainly an
attractive idea, as they'd be heavier (which should increase Power, just
a bit), harder (ditto), and wouldn't need to be sharpened, ever. They'd
also be downright rare, heavy, and expensive.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 44
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:56:51 +0000
On 14 May 97 at 15:11, Ullrich Jans wrote:
[snip]
> For the expensive one, serveral hundred layers of different types of
> steel are forged and folded into a single blade. (I don't know the
> english word for that kind of blade, in german it's "Damaszener Klinge".)
> It's really expensive (about $5000 and up for a Katana) to make such a
> blade, but it's worth it. (Anyone seen 'Bodyguard'? The scene when she
> visits him at home and points that Katana at him...)
Nice try. Sorry, but grab a world map, check where Damascus is, and
explain to me how "all those samurai and ninjas and stuff" got their
weapons... Although the production process is very similar.

> So, I think, Katanas are still made of steel.
From dental corrections there are several ceramics that can withstand
great pressure, yet are flexible enough not to splinter. Plus, several
(*glance at topic* non-allergy triggering) alloys (I don't know the
English words for...)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |I don't believe in love,|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ |I never have, / I never |
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+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----Queensryche-+
Message no. 45
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:52:06 +0000
> > For the expensive one, serveral hundred layers of different types of
> > steel are forged and folded into a single blade. (I don't know the
> > english word for that kind of blade, in german it's "Damaszener
Klinge".)
> > It's really expensive (about $5000 and up for a Katana) to make such a
> > blade, but it's worth it. (Anyone seen 'Bodyguard'? The scene when she
> > visits him at home and points that Katana at him...)
> Nice try. Sorry, but grab a world map, check where Damascus is, and
> explain to me how "all those samurai and ninjas and stuff" got their
> weapons... Although the production process is very similar.

Damascan steel was the best known steel in europe, not asia, true,
but I am not sure why you use that condescending tone? Is it,
perhaps, because you do not see the reference is to the METHOD of
making the steel, and not the location?

Damascan steel was made by using cotton in the forging process; it
carbonized iron - a material commonly known as steel. Folding it
effectively made laminated steel; sometimes iron and steel bars was
used together. That process was very similar to the one in
Japan, but the ingredients were different, and the process different.
Toledo was also known for its excellent weapons; wether they used
this method or some other is unknown to me.

The effect is that it holds an edge well without becoming brittle;
an effect that can easily be seen with regular tools and kitchen
utensils. There's the malleable ones, but they hold no sharp edge,
and there's the sharp, brittle ones, who break. High quality blades
do neither - they don't break, and they hold a sharp edge.



> > So, I think, Katanas are still made of steel.
> From dental corrections there are several ceramics that can withstand
> great pressure, yet are flexible enough not to splinter. Plus, several
> (*glance at topic* non-allergy triggering) alloys (I don't know the
> English words for...)

Ceramics, composites, plastics - they all hold promise for better
ways to make implements of destruction. Other metals than steel, too.
Plutonium edged titanium, for instance, might make a hellacious
sword. (Might, because the metals might not mix, or simply not be
suitable for some other reason. But whatever else, it would be far
from cost effectibe.).

But if someone is old-fashioned enough to use a katana, they would
presumably also be old-fashioned enough to have it in steel.

In the neuromancer books there is several references to a weapon
called 'cobra' - a spring loaded telescoping handle with a blade on
the end, used as something between a sword and a whip. Easily hidden,
dangerous. I haven't seen any similar weapons in SR. Why? What would
be the stats of it? (str(M), +1 reach, conc 10/4, cost 800, weight 1,
perhaps.).
"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 46
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:10:38 -0700
>Now all of my players have to roll on that chart.
>The ones playing metahumans, that is.
>
>Gee, allergic to plastic eh? Oh, and you're a street sam? Tough. :)
>
>-Rob

That sounds unreasonable. If you had a plastic allergy, you likely would
not BECOME a samurai. You might as well force those who want to play mages to
roll on some chart to see if they are magically active, and in what way.
(perhaps after choosing skills, gear, and attributes, no less). What fun is
that? (actually, it might be a LOT of fun, done right)
If somebody wants a certain character type, you can't arbitrary hamstring
them after they choose that type, IMO. You can (and should) participate in
character creation, but as a co-creator, not an antagonist. I realize you may
not have created the antagonistic situation, but the above makes it sound as
if you certainly participated in it.

Mongoose
Message no. 47
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:20:54 -0700
>>Now all of my players have to roll on that chart.
>>The ones playing metahumans, that is.
>>
>>Gee, allergic to plastic eh? Oh, and you're a street sam? Tough. :)
>>
>>-Rob
>
> That sounds unreasonable. If you had a plastic allergy, you likely would
>not BECOME a samurai. You might as well force those who want to play mages to
>roll on some chart to see if they are magically active, and in what way.
>(perhaps after choosing skills, gear, and attributes, no less). What fun is
>that? (actually, it might be a LOT of fun, done right)
> If somebody wants a certain character type, you can't arbitrary hamstring
>them after they choose that type, IMO. You can (and should) participate in
>character creation, but as a co-creator, not an antagonist. I realize you may
>not have created the antagonistic situation, but the above makes it sound as
>if you certainly participated in it.
>

Hey Mongoose. Those are good points you raise. In terms of hamstringing
the Sam, I think it's in the end marginal as for a 10% cost, you can
get the hypoallergenic cyberware that is plastic-allergy friendly.
Also, I let them roll twice on the table and choose the roll they
want. So, I don't screw them over.

Actually, I disagree with your comment about people likely not becoming
samurai due to an allergy. I think people become sams because those
are the cards they were delt in the game of life. It's a choice
they make based on circumstances. I'm not an advocate of being
an antagonist, but I am an advocate of putting a little adversity
in the way of the character. Even better if the characters choose
to put certain obstacles in their own path to enhance rp.

When the player in the example above rolled his allergy, the issue
of cyberware came up. We debated it, and it was mentioned 10% increase
in parts cost gets you around it. The player was fine with that.

So, I think it all worked out. I'm really not quite as big a bastard
as my orignal post may have made me out to be.

-Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Nesius | Forget that polygon/second crap. Angband beats all
nesius@******.com | "next-gen" games, and does so w/ ASCII characters.
Message no. 48
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Allergies
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:31:28 -0500
I can't remember if this was answered already but someone asked why the
allergies were lowered in SR3 ...

In SR2, allergies weren't consistant. A severe allergy for a character
was not the same as a severe allergy for a critter. In fact, I think a
severe character allergy was the same as an extreme critter allergy. In
SR3, (I'm guessing that) they made the allergy system consistant.
Therefore, while the NAME of the allergy level is different, the actual
effects of the allergy should be the same.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Message no. 49
From: alareth@****.net alareth@****.net
Subject: Allergies
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:39:32 -0400
I'm starting a new campaign and while helping a new player with
chargen I couldn't find allergies in the third ed book. Am I looking
in the wroung place or were they removed from 3rd ed?

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
Investigator, Shadowrun Webring Internal Affairs
Message no. 50
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Allergies
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:42:46 -0400
At 04:39 PM 9/20/99 -0400, alareth@****.net wrote:
>I'm starting a new campaign and while helping a new player with
>chargen I couldn't find allergies in the third ed book. Am I looking
>in the wroung place or were they removed from 3rd ed?

They are removed from the 3rd Ed, they were moved to the SR Companion (both
editions) as a Flaw.


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 51
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Allergies
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:15:49 +0200
According to alareth@****.net, at 16:39 on 20 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> I'm starting a new campaign and while helping a new player with
> chargen I couldn't find allergies in the third ed book. Am I looking
> in the wroung place or were they removed from 3rd ed?

They've been removed from SR3, but you can still take them as a flaw using
the rules from the Companion (costs haven't changed from those in the SRII
Companion, if you only have that book). You could also simply use the SRII
rules for allergies, if you want that -- I don't see any reason why it
wouldn't fit into the SR3 chargen system.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Further Reading

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