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Message no. 1
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:21:24 +0200
The POLL thread twinged a memory. If the character has an allegy to
ferrous metals (ie iorn), and has some cyberware placed in, it
normally costs about 50% extra for the hypoallgeric version (I
think). But what happens with things like bone lacing ? As far as I
see a character could get the plastic version installed, but not the
aliminum version nor the titanium ....

Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053

Ou-oh.............I think we're in trouble now
What makes you say that ?
The fact that theres a dragon behind !
You're right...calmly now....RRRR U U NN N ||
R R U U N N N ||
RRRR U U N N N ||
R R U U N N N
R R UUU N NN ()

-a standard encounter
Message no. 2
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:01:05 +0300
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Andre' Selmer wrote:

> The POLL thread twinged a memory. If the character has an allegy to
> ferrous metals (ie iorn), and has some cyberware placed in, it
> normally costs about 50% extra for the hypoallgeric version (I
> think). But what happens with things like bone lacing ? As far as I
> see a character could get the plastic version installed, but not the
> aliminum version nor the titanium ....
aliminum is not NOT ferrous metal even titanium. Ferrous metals are the
metals that have iron in them . the most simple way to recognize if a
metal has iron in it simply you must use a magnet. if the magnet is
graped in this material then it has iron if it is not (for example a
chrome gun -but very exempensive gun) the magnet simply doesnot grap on
this material (the gun )

jpante@******.compulink.gr
I am the Way,the Truth and the Life (Gospel of john 14,6)
Message no. 3
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 12:06:09 -0400
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Andre' Selmer wrote:
> The POLL thread twinged a memory. If the character has an allegy to
> ferrous metals (ie iorn), and has some cyberware placed in, it
> normally costs about 50% extra for the hypoallgeric version (I
> think). But what happens with things like bone lacing ? As far as I
> see a character could get the plastic version installed, but not the
> aliminum version nor the titanium ....

Sure he could. Iron is an element. Aluminium and Titanium are
elements, and completely different, so if you're allergic to Iron,
Aluminium and Titanium are fine.

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 4
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:27:52 +0200
Dave wrote:
> Sure he could. Iron is an element. Aluminium and Titanium are
> elements, and completely different, so if you're allergic to Iron,
> Aluminium and Titanium are fine.
Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
Aluminium is _NO_ element!

But it contains no iron, so your allergy wount be set of. BTW, allergies
come a bit short in SR (although I didn't change that... yet). Having
a friend in dental business who makes dental protheses (don't know the
real english word, hope it's understandable with this term :) I got to
know how widespread allergic reactions to several elements and/or alloys
are. Maybe there should be a chance for alllergic reactions for anyone,
not just those dandelion eaters and trogs :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: Michael Paff <mike_paff@**.CUBIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 10:06:12 -0700
Sascha Pabst wrote:
> Dave wrote:
> > Sure he could. Iron is an element. Aluminium and Titanium are
> > elements, and completely different, so if you're allergic to Iron,
> > Aluminium and Titanium are fine.
> Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
> Aluminium is _NO_ element!
>
I don't know what periodic table you are using in your world, but in the real
world, Aluminum is element # 13.
Message no. 6
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:40:12 -0400
Sascha Pabst writes:

> Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
> Aluminium is _NO_ element!

Umm, yes it is. Element 13. See your Periodic Table for details.


> But it contains no iron, so your allergy wount be set of. BTW, allergies
> come a bit short in SR (although I didn't change that... yet). Having
> a friend in dental business who makes dental protheses (don't know the
> real english word, hope it's understandable with this term :) I got to
> know how widespread allergic reactions to several elements and/or alloys
> are. Maybe there should be a chance for alllergic reactions for anyone,
> not just those dandelion eaters and trogs :-)

The metal allergies in SR aren't the same as an "ordinary" mundane allergy,
which is why you don't see humans with them.. Sure, there are people who
are allergic to various types of jewelry and such, but nobody who's going to
scream in pain on touching gold or iron.

These "allergies" actually derive from European folklore, and the traditional
legends that say fairies have an aversion to iron, or that silver can kill a
werewolf. For Shadowrun, they simply extrapolated this and worked it into a
few critter descriptions and character creation options. You don't find
folk tales about what aluminum or titanium will do to a hobgoblin, because
those metals didn't exist unrefined in those days; hence, you don't see them
as allergies in Shadowrun rules either.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Never trust a smiling Game Master."
Please don't blame anyone else. |
Message no. 7
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:52:17 -0400
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
> Dave wrote:
> > Sure he could. Iron is an element. Aluminium and Titanium are
> > elements, and completely different, so if you're allergic to Iron,
> > Aluminium and Titanium are fine.
> Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
> Aluminium is _NO_ element!

Um, unless my Periodic Table is wrong, Aluminium is so an element...;)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 8
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 21:39:02 +0300
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Dave wrote:
> > Sure he could. Iron is an element. Aluminium and Titanium are
> > elements, and completely different, so if you're allergic to Iron,
> > Aluminium and Titanium are fine.
> Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
> Aluminium is _NO_ element!

the one that says that aluminium is not element he must study chemistry
also the table of elements the 13 is the aluminium with atomic weight 27
SO ALUMINIUM IS ELEMENT NOT A MIX OF METALS BUT PURE 100% METAL

jpante@*********.gr
THe pesron with 20 in his grade in every class in his school in chemistry :)
Message no. 9
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 21:09:16 +0200
Several people wrote:
> Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > Dave wrote:
> > > Sure he could. Iron is an element. Aluminium and Titanium are
> > > elements, and completely different, so if you're allergic to Iron,
> > > Aluminium and Titanium are fine.
> > Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
> > Aluminium is _NO_ element!
> >
> I don't know what periodic table you are using in your world, but in the real
> world, Aluminum is element # 13.

Ok, Ok, I got it by now... should get back to my books :-(
Sorry for that...
Sascha
Message no. 10
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:19:23 -0600
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Dave Stone wrote:

> > Aluminium is _NO_ element!
>
> Um, unless my Periodic Table is wrong, Aluminium is so an element...;)

Unless he's talking about the fact that the British and American
spellings are different (i.e. AluminIUM versus AluminUM, respectively).

Aluminum (I'm American) is an element, as would be Aluminium.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 11
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 16:26:43 -0400
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, John IV wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Dave Stone wrote:
> > Um, unless my Periodic Table is wrong, Aluminium is so an element...;)
> Unless he's talking about the fact that the British and American
> spellings are different (i.e. AluminIUM versus AluminUM, respectively).
> Aluminum (I'm American) is an element, as would be Aluminium.
> John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>

<G> Hate to say it, but I'm American too. I could swear I've
seen it spelled as an ium before. So British spell it ium? Hm, maybe
I've been reading British Chemistry books...;)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 12
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:21:49 -0700
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Ioannis Pantelidis wrote:

> the one that says that aluminium is not element he must study chemistry
> also the table of elements the 13 is the aluminium with atomic weight 27
> SO ALUMINIUM IS ELEMENT NOT A MIX OF METALS BUT PURE 100% METAL
>
> jpante@*********.gr
> THe pesron with 20 in his grade in every class in his school in chemistry :)

20? Is that equivalent to an "A" or something? Sorry I'm just an ignorant
American trying to expand my multicultural knowledge. :)

--
Jason Ustica * Coming to you from Lancaster,CA * Email: usticaj@****.com
Message no. 13
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 16:58:31 -0400
> On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, John IV wrote:
> > Unless he's talking about the fact that the British and American
> > spellings are different (i.e. AluminIUM versus AluminUM, respectively).
> > Aluminum (I'm American) is an element, as would be Aluminium.
> > John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
>
> <G> Hate to say it, but I'm American too. I could swear I've
> seen it spelled as an ium before. So British spell it ium? Hm, maybe
> I've been reading British Chemistry books...;)


Americans usually spell the metal "aluminum," and pronounce it
"ul-OO-min-um." Europeans (and I think this is the "official" one)
spell it
"aluminium," and pronounce it "al-yoo-MIN-i-um." Your mileage may
vary;
both are right.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "I wish those who unsettle you
My opinions are my opinions. | would mutilate themselves!"
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Galatians 5:12, RSV
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:00:13 +0200
>The POLL thread twinged a memory. If the character has an allegy to
>ferrous metals (ie iorn), and has some cyberware placed in, it
>normally costs about 50% extra for the hypoallgeric version (I
>think). But what happens with things like bone lacing ? As far as I
>see a character could get the plastic version installed, but not the
>aliminum version nor the titanium ....

Aluminium and titanium are not ferrous metals, so there is no problem. Maybe
they've got slight traces of iron in them (I doubt very much they'd use the
pure stuff for just about any practical application), but I have this
feeling that that little wouldn't kill you :) If it did, how would you react
to the iron in the food you eat?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:11:42 +0200
>Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
>Aluminium is _NO_ element!

Dig up your periodic system of the elements: Al has atom number 13, atom
weight 27.0; If you want I can give you a whole load of other stuff you
probably don't care to know (and of which I don't understand half either :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 16
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:00:17 GMT
Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Sorry, but I just _have_ to comment this:
> Aluminium is _NO_ element!

Afraid it is: refined as a pure element, although like titanium and iron
usually used alloyed to improve properties (copper and silicon being popular
additions).

I wonder about severe allergies to iron. Where does that leave a vampire?
You have to drink blood, but you're massively allergic to the iron in the
haemoglobin...

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: Allen Versfeld <aversfel@****.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:03:50 +0200
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Jason Ustica wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Ioannis Pantelidis wrote:
>
> > the one that says that aluminium is not element he must study chemistry
> > also the table of elements the 13 is the aluminium with atomic weight 27
> > SO ALUMINIUM IS ELEMENT NOT A MIX OF METALS BUT PURE 100% METAL
> >
> > jpante@*********.gr
> > THe pesron with 20 in his grade in every class in his school in chemistry :)
>
> 20? Is that equivalent to an "A" or something? Sorry I'm just an ignorant
> American trying to expand my multicultural knowledge. :)
>
Hmmmm.. where I come from, a 20 would be considered an F--. But that is
because we work in %
---------------------------
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Clarke
"any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"
- Murphy
aversfel@****.cs.unp.ac.za
homepage opening soon

geek 3.0
GCS/S d- s:- a? c++ UL P? W++(--) N++ K- w(+) O? M-- V? PS !PE Y+ PGP- t+ 5?
Message no. 18
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 03:38:00 EST
>>The POLL thread twinged a memory. If the character has an allegy to
>>ferrous metals (ie iorn), and has some cyberware placed in, it
>>normally costs about 50% extra for the hypoallgeric version (I
>>think). But what happens with things like bone lacing ? As far as I
>>see a character could get the plastic version installed, but not the
>>aliminum version nor the titanium ....
>
>Aluminium and titanium are not ferrous metals, so there is no problem. Maybe
>they've got slight traces of iron in them (I doubt very much they'd use the
>pure stuff for just about any practical application), but I have this
>feeling that that little wouldn't kill you :) If it did, how would you react
>to the iron in the food you eat?
Dang, I thought iron was healthy. Never thought it could kill. Now the
question is are there any supplements that are supposed to simulate what
iron does in the body. If not then you would end up having a character with
severe iron deficiancy in a wheelchair. That assuming that a little iron
could kill. I would say that if you had a sever/lethal allergy it would
hurt you. If you had a mild allergy than it might just give your character
the runs.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 19
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:11:06 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> I wonder about severe allergies to iron. Where does that leave a vampire?
> You have to drink blood, but you're massively allergic to the iron in the
> haemoglobin...

Actually, where does it leave anyone? We all need blood to survive, therefore
we all need some iron in our diets. Bummer for those who are allergic to it
then. The answer I give to this problem is that allergies only apply to the
"pure" substance, not the chemically combined substance. So metallic iron
will cause the allergic reaction, but an equal amount of iron oxide (rust)
will not.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
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Y+ PGP@>+ t+ 5 X+(++) R+(++) tv--- b++(+++) DI? D+@ G++(+) e h(*) !r y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 20
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:19:51 -0700
>On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:
>> Paul Jonathan Adam writes:
>
>> I wonder about severe allergies to iron. Where does that leave a vampire?
>> You have to drink blood, but you're massively allergic to the iron in the
>> haemoglobin...
>
> Actually, where does it leave anyone? We all need blood to survive, therefore
> we all need some iron in our diets. Bummer for those who are allergic to it
> then. The answer I give to this problem is that allergies only apply to the
> "pure" substance, not the chemically combined substance. So metallic iron
> will cause the allergic reaction, but an equal amount of iron oxide (rust)
> will not.

Wait....
Allergies only occur when a substance reaches a certain level within you
body. This means that if your body requires a certain level of a substance
it now this level that you must watch and maintain. Much like a person
who needs insulin, they need insulin but too much is deadly. So if a person
was allergic to iron then they would have a threashold that would have to
be met before their body would start to adversely react.

Now lets take a bullet. The whole concentration of iron in the blood would
still not be as much iron as there is in a bullet, not to mention that
it is spread out so thinly (in the blood) that a reaction would not occur.

*now give him a couple of iron supplements and BLAMMO he'll be feeling
very ill.*

So it's not the how you get the iron it's the concentration of it.

(everybody is allergic to something... i.e. if it's not plastic,or pollen
it's the fact that your body can't process nerve gas or radiation
*an extreme example but that's on the same principle*)

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 21
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 19:52:26 -0500
Gary C. states that everyone is allergic to something.....
If just in thier inabilty to process such things as nerve gas.

Actually, there is a difference between Allergins and Toxins, and between
alergic reactionbs and toxological responses.
Toxins interfere with biological processes. Gary is right in that many things
that are nessesary are toxic at high levels and concentrations (insulin was, I
beleiev the example sighted). Also, to much iron suplements will make anyone
sick. Toxins can work many ways, from just overloading the kidney's or other
organs, to blocking uptake of oxegen, to jamming nerve synapses and causing
paralysis of the heart.
Allergins are envirionmental substances that for some reason the body has
strong antibody's for. These substances provoke a histemic, imunological
response, rather like infection by a virus. They cause no harm in and of
themselves, but the overeaction of the bodies immune system can be very bad-
resulting in bronchial contraction, rashes, and general drosiness from
metabolic stress.
SR allergies vary from RL style allergies up to the magical "AAAGH IT BURNS<
GET IT AWAY" type so beloved of vamperic and satanic cinema. The later is
probably a parabiological toxological action- PTA for short.

Just some info to clear up the terms bieng badied about.
So the question really is, what provokes a PTA (and nobody better say rap m
usic after I spent 15 minutes setting up that joke).

SEB
Message no. 22
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allergies and Cyberware
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:59:13 GMT
Gary Caroll (sp? sorry) wrote:
> Allergies only occur when a substance reaches a certain level within you
> body. This means that if your body requires a certain level of a substance
> it now this level that you must watch and maintain....<snip>

> Now lets take a bullet. The whole concentration of iron in the blood would
> still not be as much iron as there is in a bullet, not to mention that
> it is spread out so thinly (in the blood) that a reaction would not occur.

Sorry, Gary, I can't off-hand think of many bullets that have *any* iron
in them. Mine don't :)

There are some East European armour-piercers with steel cores, but these
would not tend to remain in the body.

Your typical bullet is a gilding-metal (copper/nickel) jacket over a
lead-antimony or pure lead core: or a cast lead-antimony slug. (The
antimony is just to harden the lead so that the bullet "bites" the rifling,
without just stripping off its surface).

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

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Thwap!