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Message no. 1
From: The Mage of the Realms <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Subject: Allies...
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 15:07:35 -0900
I have one question.... Why would someone want to have an ally when it makes
your magician so vulnerable? If someone kills the ally it hurts the magician
tremendously! Same as when the ally breaks the control of their master.
(I believe that the magician's magic rating goes down by one when an ally gets
killed or breaks free of his control. Sorry.. I don't have my Grim handy...)

So exactly why would someone want an ally? The way I read it in the Grim II
it seemed that all throughout an ally's life it is getting stronger until it
becomes strong enough to break free of it's master. Does this mean that all
allies will break free from their master's control and leave or try to kill
the master? It would seem that creating an ally will only, in the long run,
take away a point of your essence.

Is this a correct assumption???

Atticus
Message no. 2
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: allies...
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 00:21:41 -0400
Well, I like them for the following reasons:

1: They add their Force rating to your magic pool(I think...)

2: They can maintain your spells for you while you do other things.

3: As they are always assumed to be with you unless you tell them otherwise,
they always can run astral watch for you.

4: They can learn their own spells, even if you are an Adept and can't cast
them yourself, the ally can.

5: You can see through their senses and feel their thoughts(like seeing Astral
Space without even Perceiving) if you so desire.

6: You can give them Skills, like a Firearms skill, up to your rating, and
with their Immunity to Normal Weapons, this can be an advantage.

7: And I run allies in a way that if the Ally is treated well as an ally, it
is less likely to go free. And even if it does go Free, a well treated
Ally is more likely to hang around the Magician as a Free Spirit, where
it has even more power.

Seems fair to me...How about you?

Brian
Message no. 3
From: Amadeus <S9310226@********.ICS.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Allies
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 15:19:37 1000
I have a mage who is making an ally for his ordeal part of his next
grade initiation. My GM says that my character has to spend karma on
language skills if I want to verbally (as opposed to telepathically) speak
to it. How do you all feel about that? I feel that the primary language of
the conjuror should be included with the Sorcery skill when it comes to
the basic skills of your allies. I've thrown in almost 90 points of karma
on her design already and now I have to throw in at least six more on
the English Language skill (level 3) just so everyone else can
communicate with her!
Since she would be also an iron homoculus (sp?), how would she
heal damage? Would it be as fast as normal spirits? As normal
physical beings (humans, trolls, etc.)? Would she need the help of an
armorer or talismonger?
Message no. 4
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 22:48:57 -0500
On Fri, 18 Mar 1994, Amadeus wrote:

> I have a mage who is making an ally for his ordeal part of his next
> grade initiation. My GM says that my character has to spend karma on
> language skills if I want to verbally (as opposed to telepathically) speak
> to it. How do you all feel about that?

I think this is a BOGUS waste of karma..It is you gms way of throwing the
control spell on his/her [we must be politically correct]
gamers..Especially if you gm is stingy with karma to begin with..If the
karma is more or less free flowing tough noogies..

> Since she would be also an iron homoculus (sp?), how would she
> heal damage? Would it be as fast as normal spirits? As normal
> physical beings (humans, trolls, etc.)? Would she need the help of an
> armorer or talismonger?
>
The spirit inhabitant will heal at a more or less normal rate [for
spirits] it is the vessel that needs YOU to repair..Afterall YOU are the
one making it..
-------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 5
From: Twist <winterh@******.EMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 12:36:49 EDT
> on her design already and now I have to throw in at least six more on
> the English Language skill (level 3) just so everyone else can
> communicate with her!

Aren't language skills specializations?
If this is so then you will get English at 6.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
winterh@******.emich.edu (Twist) "It was hot the night we burned karma"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: "Vahamaa, Paul C, Jr" <PVAHAMAA@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: Allies
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 09:12:13 EST
If English is your native language, then it's Intelligence + (2, I
belive). If not, it is a concentration, under Germanic languages.
Message no. 7
From: SCN User <bd042@***.ORG>
Subject: Allies
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 23:49:08 -0700
Here's an idea: can an ally/free spirit/sprits in general use foci?
what if they get someone else to pay for it?

Would the ally of a shaman also gain totem bonuses, or could it
be somehow written into the spirit formula?
(would this require a special quest to the totem's metaplane, to ask
a native of that plane to be his/her ally?)

Exactly how large can you make allies and the like?
(i.e. Ganesh, the Elephant shaman, summons his friend Jumbo, who
manifests directly over your head. Have a nice (if flat) day!)

can spirits appear as inanimate objects if they want?
--bd042@***.org (Stefan Hahn/Tooth of the Kahn)
Message no. 8
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:22:30 +0100
Stefan Hahn/Tooth of the Kahn wrote :

> Here's an idea: can an ally/free spirit/sprits in general use foci?
> what if they get someone else to pay for it?
No spirit can have karma (at least in 1st Edition), so someone else has
to pay for it.
I have no objection to the fact a ally or free spirit can use foci. Foci are
made of the "construct of the universe" ins't it, as are made spirits of.
(I am not sure it is good english sorry)

> Would the ally of a shaman also gain totem bonuses, or could it
> be somehow written into the spirit formula?
> (would this require a special quest to the totem's metaplane, to ask
> a native of that plane to be his/her ally?)
The totem gives bonuses to a specific person that is mentaly close to it(him?).
A spirit is alien to human mind so cannot be close to a totem.
Therefore, NO an ally cannot have totem bonuses (or restriction).

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 9
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:51:13 +0100
>
> On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, SCN User wrote:
>
> > If you get Conjuring skill for your ally, can it then summon
> > more spirits, or can it only use it to banish others?
> > If the former, could an ally have an ally?
> > What about free spirits?
> >
> > --bd042@***.org (StefHahn/Tooth of the Kahn)
> >
>
>
> You can only purchase _non-magical_ skills for the ally, Sorcery is a noted
> exception.
> IMHO free spirits might be able to learn Conjuring and/or Enchanting, but
> remember, they use the Karma they acquire for making themselves stronger
> (increasing their Spirit Energy, then the Force).
>
> Wooden Cross
>

Well, I have to read rules again. I did not remember that allies can have karma!There is
definitevely too many sourcebooks to read and remember!

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 10
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:20:34 +1000
SCN User writes:

> Here's an idea: can an ally/free spirit/sprits in general use foci? what
> if they get someone else to pay for it?

As far as the rules are concerned, the only thing Free Spirits can do with
their Karma (well, not really _their_ karma, but anyhow) is increase their
Spirit Energy. But I see nothing wrong with Free spirits buying skills with
their karma. (Note, as has been said, allies cannot have Conjuring, Magical
Theory, or Enchanting skills, pg 70 Grimything.) Free spirits could, maybe,
depending on you as a GM, get other magical skills, but I'd be wary at least
of doing this, and make sure it was neccessary for the storyline or
something first. Now, in a similar manner, I could see my way clear to allow
Free spirits to bond foci if they really wanted to (kinda useless though, I
mean, what happens to that Power Focus earing when the spirits un-manifests?
It goes drop, and lands on the ground, and the spirit has to wait until it
manifests again to pick it up.) Same with Allies and Foci, but the magician
would have to fork out the karma for it. (Not something I'd be doing - why
give the focus to your Ally, a being which might go free one day, bond the
thing to yourself instead).

Hmm, quick question: Can a magician have several foci of the same type
bonded at the same time? Like two level 3 Power Foci simultaneously bonded?
I'd always said you could, but is this the case?

> Exactly how large can you make allies and the like?
> (i.e. Ganesh, the Elephant shaman, summons his friend Jumbo, who
> manifests directly over your head. Have a nice (if flat) day!)
> can spirits appear as inanimate objects if they want?

Um, as it stands, there are no limitations on the appearance of Allies, yes,
your ally could have the physical form of a Mac truck. Kinda of obtrusive,
but could be handy. Perhaps you as a GM may wish to exclude inanimate
objects, or even objects larger than Trolls, as being possible for the
Allies physical appearance.

> Would the ally of a shaman also gain totem bonuses, or could it
> be somehow written into the spirit formula?
> (would this require a special quest to the totem's metaplane, to ask
> a native of that plane to be his/her ally?)

---------------------------------
ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD writes:

> The totem gives bonuses to a specific person that is mentaly close to
> it(him?). A spirit is alien to human mind so cannot be close to a totem.
> Therefore, NO an ally cannot have totem bonuses (or restriction).

Well, I'd be a little bit the other way. Allies of a shaman come from a
particular metaplane, so they are deeply associated with that particular
plane at least. And since the shaman who summoned the ally had some pretty
definite views and beleifs, then I'm sure that something he invested that
much time, effort and karma into would have similarly aligned views. Perhaps
not enough to get the totem bonuses (or minuses for that matter), but it
would certainly believe the same things as the shaman. Initially at least.
But I wouldn't give it totem bonuses, since it isn't really a shaman, and
besides, the rules would have mentioned something that important if it were
to be the case, and since they don't, then I think it's safe to assume that
Allies don't get totem bonuses.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 11
From: Calle Isakson <calle.isakson@***.SE>
Subject: Allies
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:41:03 +0200
I want to protect my ally!

Hi I'm new to the list and have been playing SR for almost a year. During this
time I have earned some KARMA and have saved some of it to get my self an
ally-spirit.

I'm little conserned about how easyly some spirits are banished. The ally I
had in mind will cost about 50 KARMA for starters (more will follow). Can a
magican somehow aid his/hers ally if some other magican is trying to banish it?

My GM have not realy desided how to handle my request for ally support.

Is there any one on the list that have some ideas how to add some nice
rules for protecting allies?


Regards,

Mr E, Initiated mage
Message no. 12
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Allies
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:41:07 -0500
I looked up all the rules for a runner of mine in the Grimmy, and suddenly
noticed....


Is there no way to raise an Allies force?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 13
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:36:16 EST
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:41:07 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>I looked up all the rules for a runner of mine in the Grimmy, and
>suddenly
>noticed....
>
>
>Is there no way to raise an Allies force?
>
>-=SwiftOne=-
>
You conduct your ritual of change and pay 5 times the spirit's current
force to raise it one level. It's not stated explicitly (I don't think)
but you simply pay the extra karma as if it were being paid in the ally's
original summoning...

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 14
From: Adam Treloar <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:54:23 -0500
At 09:41 PM 19/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I looked up all the rules for a runner of mine in the Grimmy, and suddenly
>noticed....
>
>Is there no way to raise an Allies force?

It's called the rite of something in the grimoire. It's how you give an
ally anything except spells, I think.

Guardian
Message no. 15
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:21:29 +0800
>Is there no way to raise an Allies force?

It costs 5 times the current level of the ally to raise it to the next
level. I am 99.99% sure it is mentioned in the Grimmy under the Ally
section. If you cant find it give me a yell and I will double check it for you.

Gav
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:04:15 -0500
>>Is there no way to raise an Allies force?
>
>It's called the rite of something in the grimoire. It's how you give an
>ally anything except spells, I think.

I said I read that....and It allows you to raise attributes and Skills. No
Force, at least, if I'm reading it correctly.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 17
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:33:35 -0500
>>Is there no way to raise an Allies force?
>
>It costs 5 times the current level of the ally to raise it to the next
>level. I am 99.99% sure it is mentioned in the Grimmy under the Ally
>section. If you cant find it give me a yell and I will double check it for you.

That is listed under the Ritual of Summoning. The Ritual of Change doesn't
seem to cover that.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 18
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:50:17 +0000
On 20 Feb 97 at 12:04, Brett Borger wrote:
[snip Raising an Ally's Force]
> I said I read that....and It allows you to raise attributes and Skills. No
> Force, at least, if I'm reading it correctly.
Grimoire, p. 71: "All the requirements and ratings for the ritual of
summoning apply to the ritual of change. [...]
The magician uses the ritual of change whenever he wishes to change the
ally's ratings. The magician must have enough Karma to pay for the
changes before beginning the ritual."

Have a look at "Ritual of Summoning": Grimoire, p. 71: "The ritual of
summoning requires the magician to make a Conjuring test against a
target number equal to the ally's force Rating."

Now look at "Designing the Ally" (Grimpoire, pp. 69-70): "To raise the
ally's Force to the next higher level costs 5 Karma Points times the
current Force Rating."

Seems to me you didn't read correctly.


Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:13:53 -0500
>Grimoire, p. 71: "All the requirements and ratings for the ritual of
>summoning apply to the ritual of change. [...]
>The magician uses the ritual of change whenever he wishes to change the
>ally's ratings. The magician must have enough Karma to pay for the
>changes before beginning the ritual."

Got this part...

>Have a look at "Ritual of Summoning": Grimoire, p. 71: "The ritual of
>summoning requires the magician to make a Conjuring test against a
>target number equal to the ally's force Rating."

This was the part that threw me. It seems to say that those "requirements
and ratings" mentioned above are for skills and Atts only.

>Now look at "Designing the Ally" (Grimpoire, pp. 69-70): "To raise the
>ally's Force to the next higher level costs 5 Karma Points times the
>current Force Rating."

Got it, but it wasn't clear that this would apply in Ritual of Change.

>Seems to me you didn't read correctly.

Maybe. But I'm still unsure. Should I use the NEW force rating or the OLD
Force rating?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 20
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:44:25 -0600
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> I looked up all the rules for a runner of mine in the Grimmy, and suddenly
> noticed....
>
>
> Is there no way to raise an Allies force?

Read the bit about ritual of change.

Calculate the karma cost difference (force 4-5 is 20? karma)
make the test (Force+1) Target number, pay the karma, resist drain, done.
Message no. 21
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:39:27 -0600
> Maybe. But I'm still unsure. Should I use the NEW force rating or the OLD
> Force rating?

Use the new force rating, plus the number of changes made as the target
number. (if you add strength by two, and force by one, add three to the
current force as the TN.)

You then have to make something like three drain resistance tests, and
chant and hum for three days. The tedium.
Message no. 22
From: "NATHAN M. CHATFIELD" <s1183038@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Allies
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:53:19 +1000
I was wondering if you could summon an ally spirit in to a brain dead
meta/human. I know you can sommon them in to animals and works of art
(statues).

----Warlock----
Message no. 23
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:45:40 +1000
> I was wondering if you could summon an ally spirit in to a brain dead
> meta/human. I know you can sommon them in to animals and works of art
> (statues).

That's up to the GM.

Ray
Message no. 24
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:45:15 -0300
In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?
Thanks in advance.

-Murder of One
Message no. 25
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:59:41 +1000
Scott Wheelock writes:
> In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
> Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
> the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
> the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
> conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
> loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
> good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
> the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
> itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
> doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
> can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
> very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?
> Thanks in advance.

It means that you have to spend at least as much on the familiar as you are
on the inititation. Whether that's before or after the discount for the
ordeal isn't clear, but I would say after.

Most players who are going to do this though would probably spend a bit
extra and get a better ally spirit, anyway.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 26
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:22:25 -0500
On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:45:15 -0300 Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
writes:
> In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
>Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
>the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
>the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
>conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
>loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
>good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
>the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
>itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
>doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
>can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
>very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?
> Thanks in advance.

Honestly. I don't know. Direct your questions to Steve K. (author of
MitS) or Mike Mulvihil (Current DLOH). addresses: Talonmail@***.com or
FASAmike@***.com respectively. I doubt you'll get much as second
edition, IIRC, is not going to be supported. (IOW, you'll probably get
the third edition answer "wait for MitS").

However, if I had to guess, I'd say you get an Ally that costs as much
karma as you are paying for the initiation (ie, after the discount for
ordeal and/or group intiation.). You can always follow the initiation up
with with a Ritual of Change.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
WARNING: Virus found: Win.com
Disinfect? (Y/N)

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Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:36:01 +0200
According to Scott Wheelock, at 3:45 on 19 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
> Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
> the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
> the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
> conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
> loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
> good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
> the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
> itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
> doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
> can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
> very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?

The way I've always played this is that you get a familiar with a cost
equal to (or less than, if you want to) the Karma cost of the initiation,
_after_ reducing it for using an ordeal. You can of course spend more
Karma to create a more powerful spirit.

Also, I don't charge Karma twice -- once for the initiation and once for
the ally -- but both are "bought" from the same Karma. In your example, 15
Karma would get you an initiation grade _and_ an ally; you wouldn't have
to spend 30 Karma (15 for the initiation and 15 for the ally).

As for very low-powered allies, one of my players (Jester) once spent the
first 5 Good Karma his character had earned to conjure himself an ally...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I will not take these things for granted.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: AndMat3@***.com AndMat3@***.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:18:20 EDT
In a message dated 4/19/99 2:46:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
> Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
> the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
> the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
> conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
> loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
> good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
> the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
> itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
> doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
> can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
> very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?

The way i read the rules is like this. The familiar cannot cost less
than the initiation. Pretty much it works like this:
you initiate as normal, but use the "Familiar" ordeal to lower the
cost of initiation. pay this cost.
then you "create" your familiar, and pay that cost; but do not lose
the magic point.
at the end, you should be up 1 magic point (from initiation); up one
ally (from summoning); and down one chunk of karma.

later,
andy
Message no. 29
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:38:28 EDT
Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca> wrote
>>>In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?<<<

The Karma cost of the ally is at least equal to the final cost of the
Initiation (after discounts for ordeals , etc.). You can spend more Karma on
your ally if you want, the ordeal simply sets the minimum Karma cost (not too
tough to meet if you want a modestly powerful spirit).

Steve K.

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 30
From: Jester jester@**********.nl
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:23:42 +0200
At 10:36, 19 Apr 99, Jester was told by Gurth:

>
> As for very low-powered allies, one of my players (Jester) once spent the
> first 5 Good Karma his character had earned to conjure himself an ally...
>
Ah, the good old days, when I was a little beginner. It was fun
though, and it provided my character with a little more roleplaying
depth, untill it got killed by the fist mage we bumbed into, that
is:)

--
As soon as friendship between a man and a woman passes
a certain point, some secret boundary, a woman always
quite automatically becomes overwhelmed by a compulsion
to complicate matters.

Jester
<jester@**********.nl>

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GS d s: a22? c- U? P? L? E? W N- o? K- w+ O--- M? V? PS PE-
Y PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+>++ tv++ b+++ DI? D- G e>+ h! r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 31
From: Ulrike Ulrike@*************.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:29:53 +0200
> ... It says that
> the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
> itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
> doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
> can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
> very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Murder of One
>
Oh, I love this rule! Because nowhere they say something about a
restriction about the ally, I interpreted the rule to my best interest.
Hastily scraping all my karma together (before MitS maybe closes the
loophole) I initiated in a group for initiate level 0.

The cost for the initiation ( group, ordeal: [6+0]x1.5=9 ) doubles with
the summoning of the ally. So I invested 18 karma points and gained my
initiation and an ally. If you knew that BrightStar has force 5 and I
had to invest 56 karma points in the usual way, it seems like cheating.
However my GM and the other players (a bunch of heavy cybered samurais,
almost cyberzombies) agreed, because my fragile alter egos were
frequently shot down in the last runs (They lasted usually only one or
two runs *sigh*). Instead we use the gradual initiation option. Again it
is a question of game balance.

~Ulrike.
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:15:15 EDT
In a message dated 4/19/1999 1:46:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

>
> In the Grimoire, 2nd Ed. (and yeah, I know about MitS.
> Don't tell me to wait 'til it comes out, I just want to know
> the answer to this in 2nd Ed. rules) when initiating, one of
> the ordeals is the"Familiar" ordeal. To do this, you
> conjure an ally as per the standard rules, and get a more
> loyal ally with no magic loss (yet :). That's all fine and
> good, but the cost of te familiar confuses me. It says that
> the familiar automatically costs as much as the initiation
> itself. What does that mean? Before reducing the cost for
> doing the ordeal, or after? If the initiation costs 15 karma,
> can you spend more on the ally, or are you stuck with a
> very low-powered familiar (i.e. 15 karma worth)?
> Thanks in advance.

What it means is that the cost of the Ally must be *at least* equal to the
cost of the initiation advancement itself. So, in short...you are paying
karma for the ally *AND* you are paying karma (albeit reduced) for the
initiation advancement.

-K
Message no. 33
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:23:55 -0500
On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:36:01 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
>Also, I don't charge Karma twice -- once for the initiation and once for

>the ally -- but both are "bought" from the same Karma. In your example,
15
>Karma would get you an initiation grade _and_ an ally; you wouldn't have

>to spend 30 Karma (15 for the initiation and 15 for the ally).
<SNIP>

Why would that be charging Karma twice? If you don't charge for the Ally
creation, you are basicly Intiating for free, get an Ally for regular
price without the Magic Loss, AND the Ally is more loyal than normal.
That is one HUGE discount! What's the drawback?

Btw, for one character, I used starting Force Points (SR2) to summon an
Ally to Inhabit the char's bike. My GM kept saying "Why don't you use
your bike to attack?" "Why don't you summon your bike?" (To other
players who were mundanes and wouldn't have access to such information)
"He's got a spirit in his bike." It was a bit annoying.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
Free IQ test: Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete

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Message no. 34
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Allies
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:39:10 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to dghost@****.com."
] Honestly. I don't know. Direct your questions to Steve K. (author of
] MitS) or Mike Mulvihil (Current DLOH). addresses: Talonmail@***.com or
] FASAmike@***.com respectively. I doubt you'll get much as second
] edition, IIRC, is not going to be supported. (IOW, you'll probably get
] the third edition answer "wait for MitS").

I suspect you're right, so I'll just wait (BTW, is Paul Hume not
an option? He wrote the book, after all).

] However, if I had to guess, I'd say you get an Ally that costs as much
] karma as you are paying for the initiation (ie, after the discount for
] ordeal and/or group intiation.). You can always follow the initiation up
] with with a Ritual of Change.

That's how I took it...all in all, it's something I'd use for a higher-
grade initiation, just so the ally wouldn't suck initially. Get rid of
those other, "easy" ordeals first.

-Murder of One
Message no. 35
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Allies
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:42:25 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Ereskanti@***.com."
] What it means is that the cost of the Ally must be *at least* equal to the
] cost of the initiation advancement itself. So, in short...you are paying
] karma for the ally *AND* you are paying karma (albeit reduced) for the
] initiation advancement.

So you think that the karma spent on initiation isn't a cap
either? Sounds nicer than the way I read it initially.

-Murder of One
Message no. 36
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Allies
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:41:03 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."
] The way I've always played this is that you get a familiar with a cost
] equal to (or less than, if you want to) the Karma cost of the initiation,
] _after_ reducing it for using an ordeal. You can of course spend more
] Karma to create a more powerful spirit.

Okay, so the initiation karma's not a cap, in your view. Cool.

] Also, I don't charge Karma twice -- once for the initiation and once for
] the ally -- but both are "bought" from the same Karma. In your example, 15
] Karma would get you an initiation grade _and_ an ally; you wouldn't have
] to spend 30 Karma (15 for the initiation and 15 for the ally).

This doesn't seem right at all...wow, a free ally!

] As for very low-powered allies, one of my players (Jester) once spent the
] first 5 Good Karma his character had earned to conjure himself an ally...

They're nifty all right...do you play that the GM controls
them, or is it like a second PC?

-Murder of One
Message no. 37
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Allies
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:25:50 +0200
According to Scott Wheelock, at 16:41 on 20 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> ] As for very low-powered allies, one of my players (Jester) once spent the
> ] first 5 Good Karma his character had earned to conjure himself an ally...
>
> They're nifty all right...do you play that the GM controls
> them, or is it like a second PC?

Both, but he didn't have it very long. Soon after, the shaman let the ally
guard the stairs of an apartment building the PCs were hiding in. A strike
team came to attack them, and their mage banished the ally (not very hard
with a Force 2) to prevent it becoming another enemy to deal with when the
firefight would break out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:25:00 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/1999 3:11:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> ] What it means is that the cost of the Ally must be *at least* equal to
the
> ] cost of the initiation advancement itself. So, in short...you are
paying
> ] karma for the ally *AND* you are paying karma (albeit reduced) for the
> ] initiation advancement.
>
> So you think that the karma spent on initiation isn't a cap
> either? Sounds nicer than the way I read it initially.

The way I have perceived the rule is the karma requirement for initiation
isn't the "cap" (ie; limit), but it's the minimum cutoff required.

-K
Message no. 39
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 06:47:10 -0500
What do you think about these as additions to the Homunculus table?
Material Armor
Corpse (ie, Flesh & Bone) 2
Flesh 1
Bone 3
Notes (applies to all materials):
1. Called shots cannot bypass armor except with Corpse Homunculi (a
called shot can bypass the bone and reduce the armor rating).
2. Called shots can not increase damage.
3. (Optional) Damage done to the homunculus is not repaired when the Ally
heals.
4. (Optional) Repairing a damaged homunculus after the Ally heals (See
rule 3; healing in this case, means adjusting to the damaged form) causes
an amount of damage one level less as the amount of damage repaired on
the homunculus.
5. The armor rating (IMO) reflects lack of vitals as well as resistance
to actual damage.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 40
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Allies
Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 18:31:05 GMT
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
>What do you think about these as additions to the Homunculus table?
>Material Armor
>Corpse (ie, Flesh & Bone) 2
>Flesh 1
>Bone 3
>Notes (applies to all materials):
>1. Called shots cannot bypass armor except with Corpse Homunculi (a
>called shot can bypass the bone and reduce the armor rating).
>2. Called shots can not increase damage.
>3. (Optional) Damage done to the homunculus is not repaired when the Ally
>heals.
>4. (Optional) Repairing a damaged homunculus after the Ally heals (See
>rule 3; healing in this case, means adjusting to the damaged form) causes
>an amount of damage one level less as the amount of damage repaired on
>the homunculus.
>5. The armor rating (IMO) reflects lack of vitals as well as resistance
>to actual damage.

Cool; like perminant zombies. Very voodoo.

Phil
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