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Message no. 1
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:21:47 EDT
OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give it the Sorcery
power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma to give him someone
under his control that can cast spells?
Message no. 2
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:07:18 -0400
On 4 Jun 98, at 16:21, Nexx Many-Scars wrote:

> OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give it the
> Sorcery power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma to give
> him someone under his control that can cast spells?

Hmmm.... interesting.

I think you can only give the Sorcery skill if you know it, though.
Of course, nothing precludes a conjuring adept from learning Sorcery.

--


=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 3
From: Disney Shaman <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:09:05 EDT
> > OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give it the
> > Sorcery power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma t=
o give
> > him someone under his control that can cast spells?
>
> I think you can only give the Sorcery skill if you know it, though.
> Of course, nothing precludes a conjuring adept from learning Sorcery.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, myself. Heck, even a mundane can learn=
the *skill*... And the thing can do stuff he can't – I mean, that's =
kind of the point of having them – so why not sorcery? And though I =
don't recall if the conjurer has to know sorcery, I believe the ally ca=
n only learn spells he knows, can't it? So he has to basically blow dou=
ble karma on them.

Nope. No prob at all...


- Disney Shaman
Message no. 4
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:31:21 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-04 19:10:53 EDT, you write:

> And though I don't recall if the
> conjurer has to know sorcery, I believe the ally can only learn spells he
> knows, can't it? So he has to basically blow double karma on them.

Well, I got off my lazy butt and checked Grimmy. The Ally's skill is equal to
its creators at the time of summoning... so even if you've only got a score of
1, your ally can have this power, and increase it up to your own... as a
suggestion, I'd give it a spellcasting concentration, possibly with a
specialization in a specific category (Healing spells, anyone?). I know I
would be nervous as hell doing ritual magic with a being that is completely
beholden to someone not involved in the casting.

Scratch that part about specializing, BTW... allies apparently pay a special
rate (since you're just imprinting your knowledge onto them, I can understand
why)
Message no. 5
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:43:12 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-04 19:10:53 EDT, you write:

> And though I don't recall if the
> conjurer has to know sorcery, I believe the ally can only learn spells he
> knows, can't it? So he has to basically blow double karma on them.

And damn, I sent that one early.

Ok, if you go with my theory that your skill knowledge is just imprinted upon
your ally, could you use someone else as the imprint template?

For example, I want my spirit, who manifests itself as a beautiful redhead
with a fiery temper (Hey, I'm a Fire Elemental adept who doesn't get out
much... bite me). To match her fiery temper, I want her to be able to weild a
flame-thrower... but I have no idea how to use one. However my friend Sam the
Sammy does, and he's got it at a 9 (he really needs to get out...). Could I
use his knowledge of how to work a flame-thrower, instead of my own, in the
Ritual of Change to pump up my ally? (My call, BTW, would be that it would
require double Karma).

Another thought. In the section about free spirits, it says that they can't
gain Karma because karma is unique to an embodied soul. Would this mean that
an ally who is inhabiting a living body (such as my black cat familiar) could
gain Karma on its own?

Nexx, the questioner
Message no. 6
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:58:31 +0200
> OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give it the So=
rcery
> power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma to give him s=
omeone
> under his control that can cast spells?

First, nothing states that a conjuring adept could conjure an ally.
Then, even he was able to do it, the sorcery skill is equal to the
sorcery of the conjurer, which is 0. Even if you allowed the conjurer
to devellop sorcery, the spirit must (IMO) learn the spell from the
conjurer, which isn't possible.

That's many if... :)


    -
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Message no. 7
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:58:14 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-04 20:53:41 EDT, you write:

> First, nothing states that a conjuring adept could conjure an ally.
But since conjuring is what they do, and it doesn't require an active astral
presence to do it, I would say that it falls in their area of play.

> Then, even he was able to do it, the sorcery skill is equal to the
> sorcery of the conjurer, which is 0. Even if you allowed the conjurer
> to devellop sorcery, the spirit must (IMO) learn the spell from the
> conjurer, which isn't possible.

Nope. The magician must learn the spell for the ally. Grimmy, pg 68
"Note that if a magician learns a spell for his ally, he does not learn it
himself. The ally knows it, not the master"

Another thought... can a magician Resist Drain for his ally, instead of the
other way around? If my ally learned Hellblast, but I didn't get a chance to,
could I take his drain?
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:50:00 +1000
Nexx writes:
> > First, nothing states that a conjuring adept could conjure an ally.
> But since conjuring is what they do, and it doesn't require an
> active astral
> presence to do it, I would say that it falls in their area of play.

Ditto. Conjuring adepts must be able to conjure allies. It's a conjuring
test.

> > Then, even he was able to do it, the sorcery skill is equal to the
> > sorcery of the conjurer, which is 0. Even if you allowed the conjurer
> > to devellop sorcery, the spirit must (IMO) learn the spell from the
> > conjurer, which isn't possible.
>
> Nope. The magician must learn the spell for the ally. Grimmy, pg 68
> "Note that if a magician learns a spell for his ally, he does not learn it
> himself. The ally knows it, not the master"

Ah, I spot a catch... Conjuring adepts can't learn spells, anymore than a
mundane could learn a spell.
OTH, Sorcery is still a useful skill for an ally spirit even if it can't
cast spells, as it would be a replacement skill for Astral Combat instead of
Force.

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robert.watkins@******.com *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 9
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 04:07:49 +0200
> > Then, even he was able to do it, the sorcery skill is equal to the
> > sorcery of the conjurer, which is 0. Even if you allowed the conjurer
> > to devellop sorcery, the spirit must (IMO) learn the spell from the
> > conjurer, which isn't possible.
>
> Nope. The magician must learn the spell for the ally. Grimmy, pg 68
> "Note that if a magician learns a spell for his ally, he does not learn =
it
> himself. The ally knows it, not the master"

Which is why I said IMO.
Nonetheless, I think that when a non-spellcaster learns the sorcery
skill, it is a different skill than the one practiced by
spellcasters. It only has some similar effects and the same name in
the SR system.
So, if the conjurer had a sorcery skill, he would give that same
skill to the spirit. That means that the ally could do the same
things with this skill than the conjurer does with it and wouldn't be
able to cast spells by the way.

> Another thought... can a magician Resist Drain for his ally, instead of =
the
> other way around? If my ally learned Hellblast, but I didn't get a chan=
ce to,
> could I take his drain?

I would allow it since I tend to think that the link between the
conjurer and the ally is dual.


    -
Cobra.                   =
                      
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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:19:02 +0100
Nexx Many-Scars said on 16:21/4 Jun 98,...

> OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give it the Sorcery
> power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma to give him someone
> under his control that can cast spells?

IMHO, yes. The ally gets Sorcery skill at the same level as the
magician knows it (and there is nothing to prohibit conjuring
adepts from learning Sorcery skill, BTW) if you give it the Sorcery
power. I feel the ally would be able to cast spells just like any
other ally.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:19:02 +0100
Disney Shaman said on 19:09/4 Jun 98,...

> I wouldn't have a problem with it, myself. Heck, even a mundane can lear=
n the
> *skill*... And the thing can do stuff he can't – I mean, that's kind o=
f the
> point of having them – so why not sorcery? And though I don't recall =
if the
> conjurer has to know sorcery, I believe the ally can only learn spells h=
e
> knows, can't it? So he has to basically blow double karma on them.

Allies can learn spells only if the magician learns them especially
for the ally. The magician need not know the spell as well; in fact,
the Grimoire puts it like this: "The master must learn it again if
he wants to know the spell, too." This means the conjurer need
not learn the spell twice, and so only spends Karma on it once.

However, in order to increase the ally's Sorcery skill, the cinjurer
would first need to learn the skill himself to the level the ally is
supposed to get it. That is spending double Karma (well, 1 1/2x
Karma, because allies' skills can be increased as if they were
all specializations).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
Version 3.1: | Incubated into
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N | the First Church of
o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 12
From: Disney Shaman <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:41:20 EDT
> Another thought. In the section about free spirits, it says that they can't
> gain Karma because karma is unique to an embodied soul. Would this mean
> that an ally who is inhabiting a living body (such as my black cat familiar)
> could gain Karma on its own?

I would suggest not... It would get a bit nuts, no? Everyone taking their
Force 8 gerbils on runs to get them up to Force 9... "Kahuna, take out their
security cameras; Rio, you keep the motor running on the War Dog; Frisky, you
go in and rip the throats out of the security guards... Oh, and bring a
grenade in with you, willya?"

Not that I wouldn't have a character *try* it, mind you...


- Disney Shaman
Message no. 13
From: Disney Shaman <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:45:36 EDT
> Ah, I spot a catch... Conjuring adepts can't learn spells, anymore than a
> mundane could learn a spell.

Who said mundanes can't learn spells? Far as I know, they just can't cast
them, and no idiot would blow all that on something he can't use in any way.
Heck, a mundane with Magic Theory can *design* spells...

- Disney Shaman
Message no. 14
From: David Mezerette <dame0007@****.UNI-SB.DE>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:28:11 +0200
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Disney Shaman wrote:

> > Another thought. In the section about free spirits, it says that they can't
> > gain Karma because karma is unique to an embodied soul. Would this mean
> > that an ally who is inhabiting a living body (such as my black cat familiar)
> > could gain Karma on its own?
>
> I would suggest not... It would get a bit nuts, no? Everyone taking their
> Force 8 gerbils on runs to get them up to Force 9... "Kahuna, take out their
> security cameras; Rio, you keep the motor running on the War Dog; Frisky, you
> go in and rip the throats out of the security guards... Oh, and bring a
> grenade in with you, willya?"
>
> Not that I wouldn't have a character *try* it, mind you...
>
I would suggest not too, but for other reasons: the body which the spirit
inhabits isn't really his own body. It's just some
"oh-cool-i-needed-a-flesh-shell-let-me-take-yours" body, so it's mainly a
tool: having taken control over some kilos meat doesn't make it an
embodied SOUL. It's still a spirit. (OK, we'll need a better definition of
soul, and here it becomes slippy: one needs Karma to learn something, one
needs a soul to gain Karma, so (eg) dogs which can learn some tricks have
a soul? I guess not, but then, how do they learn? is soul limited to
sentient creatures in a natural body (that means metahumanity + dragons +
sasquatch + some others....))
I know I may be a lil far off, but i guess there'd been worse before.

david
ChYlD
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:46:58 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 12:44:15 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Nexx3@***.COM writes:

> with a fiery temper (Hey, I'm a Fire Elemental adept who doesn't get out
> much... bite me). To match her fiery temper, I want her to be able to
weild
> a
> flame-thrower... but I have no idea how to use one. However my friend Sam
> the
> Sammy does, and he's got it at a 9 (he really needs to get out...). Could
I
> use his knowledge of how to work a flame-thrower, instead of my own, in the
> Ritual of Change to pump up my ally? (My call, BTW, would be that it would
> require double Karma).

Nope, first the controlling mage would have to learn it, and then he could
perform the Ritual of Change to let the Ally learn the skill fully.

There is anything we do here, is that even bound spirits are bound to pick up
new tricks, and we have them use their Force as the defaulting attribute when
needing to make the necessary skill tests ...

> Another thought. In the section about free spirits, it says that they
can't
> gain Karma because karma is unique to an embodied soul. Would this mean
> that
> an ally who is inhabiting a living body (such as my black cat familiar)
> could
> gain Karma on its own?

Nope, no free or bound spirit by the current rules of the game may earn karma
on their own ... we allow free spirits to gain karma in the same manner as the
enemies of the pcs can gain threat points for themselves though.

Mike
Message no. 16
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:49:33 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 12:59:11 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Nexx3@***.COM writes:

> > Then, even he was able to do it, the sorcery skill is equal to the
> > sorcery of the conjurer, which is 0. Even if you allowed the conjurer
> > to devellop sorcery, the spirit must (IMO) learn the spell from the
> > conjurer, which isn't possible.
>
> Nope. The magician must learn the spell for the ally. Grimmy, pg 68
> "Note that if a magician learns a spell for his ally, he does not learn it
> himself. The ally knows it, not the master"
>
> Another thought... can a magician Resist Drain for his ally, instead of the
> other way around? If my ally learned Hellblast, but I didn't get a chance
> to,
> could I take his drain?
>
Ya know that is an interesting thing to do ... have Resist Drain (or Eat Drain
as the case may be) work both ways between the controlling mage and the ally
... it would probably have to be something designed into the Ally Formula ...
and something which may endear the ally completely to the controlling mage is
if the spirit could dump drain completely on the caster when needed ... okay,
which is the same thing as I said above ... either way, the spirit becomes
more friendly and loyal towards the controlling mage ...

-Mike
Message no. 17
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:47:53 +0000
> > >*snip only embodies souls can get karma, spirits inhabiting..do
> > >they get karma?*

> >*snip no I don't think so*

> I would suggest not too, but for other reasons: the body which the spirit
> inhabits isn't really his own body. It's just some
> "oh-cool-i-needed-a-flesh-shell-let-me-take-yours" body, so it's mainly a
> tool: having taken control over some kilos meat doesn't make it an
> embodied SOUL. It's still a spirit. (OK, we'll need a better definition of
> soul, and here it becomes slippy:
*snip*

It sure does, because it's a trick description. The players provide
the souls in question, because only PC's get karma - it's a strict PC
thing. Karma is a game mechanic tool, and not logically based. They
flat out say so. Besides, spirits may only gain karma by
receiving it from someone. NPC's are suggested to be able to give
'karma' equivalent to their threat rating to a spirit without
*spending* that threat rating (threat rating being closer to karma
pool than karma) but that's all at the GM's discretion.

Now, how about a PC Spirit? Would that be able to receive karma?
(NO, I don't expect a 'by the book' answer - PC's cannot be spirits
'by the book' so obviously all answers will be house rules.).
--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:34:08 -0600
Disney Shaman wrote:
/
/ > Ah, I spot a catch... Conjuring adepts can't learn spells, anymore than a
/ > mundane could learn a spell.
/
/ Who said mundanes can't learn spells? Far as I know, they just can't cast
/ them, and no idiot would blow all that on something he can't use in any way.
/ Heck, a mundane with Magic Theory can *design* spells...

It doesn't say one way or the other, AFAIK. But follow my reasoning:

Can you learn to fire a pistol without a pistol? Well, yes. A person
could tell you how to stand and hold your hand and give you all sorts
of advice. A person could even show you by firing a real pistol.

And then you could pick up the pistol and, if you'd been paying
attention, squeeze off a shot at the target. But that first shot would
be quite a suprise if you'd never fired a gun at all. But you could
learn to fire it.

Could you learn to *use* a pistol with any skill without a pistol to
practice with? I'm gonna say no, unless you have one hell of an
instructor and you have a natural talent for it.

Ditto for spell casting. A mage could show you the motions to go
through and tell you how to focus your mind, but you really wouldn't be
able to effectively cast a spell without actually doing it.

I'd be willing to give non-magical character a chance to learn
sorcery and spells. The TN would be a doozy and would require an
instructor and a lot of time.

And if he was successful I wouldn't allow him to increase his sorcery
skill above 1. Ditto for learning spells (limited to Force 1).

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 19
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:27:29 -0400
At 10:34 AM 6/5/98 -0600, you wrote:

>Ditto for spell casting. A mage could show you the motions to go
>through and tell you how to focus your mind, but you really wouldn't be
>able to effectively cast a spell without actually doing it.

I see little point to allowing mundanes "learn" spells. It does them nothing.

>I'd be willing to give non-magical character a chance to learn
>sorcery and spells. The TN would be a doozy and would require an
>instructor and a lot of time.

Sorcery is something that a mundane should be able to learn, since it's
really the spells that are the direct application of the skill. Sure, a
mundane with Sorcery might not know really what he's doing chanting and
waving around his hands, but he could learn it. And I'm sure that some of
the words and motions, when all combined together, have some element of
power behind them.

>And if he was successful I wouldn't allow him to increase his sorcery
>skill above 1. Ditto for learning spells (limited to Force 1).

Again, I wouldn't allow spells.

But the skills, sure, why not? Hermetic Sorcery and Conjuring is a lot of
rituals, and much of hermetic thought is grounded in mathematics of some
variety. That sort of stuff can be learned, at least by rote, by anyone.
To achieve true understanding, Magic ability would be required.

Here's a sideways step. A fair number of people *now* practice or claim to
practice magic, and as near as we can tell, there isn't any real magic.
But these folks, even if they never see the successful result of a spell,
understand the theories and the rituals behind what they are doing. *I*
can do the same and not believe a word of it.

So the knowledge is one thing, the application of that knowledge can be
something else entirely.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 20
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:01:04 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-05 09:50:34 EDT, you write:

> ... it would probably have to be something designed into the Ally Formula ..
> .
> and something which may endear the ally completely to the controlling mage
> is
> if the spirit could dump drain completely on the caster when needed ...
okay,
>
> which is the same thing as I said above ... either way, the spirit becomes
> more friendly and loyal towards the controlling mage ...

In the game Ars Magica, familiars take on a very important role: They're
often the only companion a Magus has that they can freely share everything
with. I see Allies as being similar. After all, how much time is a mage
going to have for a social life, between recovering from his spellcasting
aneurysms and designing and learning new spells and tricks? An ally, though,
can share this with the mage, understands what he's going through, and won't
steal his work and claim it as his own.

Nexx
Message no. 21
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:08:13 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-05 14:33:47 EDT, you write:

> >Ditto for spell casting. A mage could show you the motions to go
> >through and tell you how to focus your mind, but you really wouldn't be
> >able to effectively cast a spell without actually doing it.
>
> I see little point to allowing mundanes "learn" spells. It does them
> nothing.

But it does nothing to not allow them to. How many wannabe mages do you think
learn spells, hoping that this will be the one that they can cast? Spend
money on Elemental Conjuring Materials, praying that the spirits will hear his
call _this_ time.

Nexx
Message no. 22
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:45:43 -0500
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:47:53 +0000 Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes:
<SNIP Soul Discussion>
>Now, how about a PC Spirit? Would that be able to receive karma?
>(NO, I don't expect a 'by the book' answer - PC's cannot be spirits
>'by the book' so obviously all answers will be house rules.).
>--
>Rune Fostervoll
<SNIP Sig>

I haven't decided yet ... I have a PC free spirit in the game and as an
interum measure, I say that since he /THINKS/ he's a Shapeshifter Sorcery
Adept (Free Ally Spirit with Animal Form and the Amnesia flaw at -3), he
can earn karma normally ... I don't yet know how I'm going to handle it
once he finds out he's a spook :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 23
From: Jhary-a-Conel <Jhary-a-Conel@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:50:00 +0200
On 5 Jun 98, at 10:34, David Buehrer wrote:
[snip problems of training]
> I'd be willing to give non-magical character a chance to learn
> sorcery and spells. The TN would be a doozy and would require an
> instructor and a lot of time.
>
> And if he was successful I wouldn't allow him to increase his sorcery
> skill above 1. Ditto for learning spells (limited to Force 1).

I know you pointed out how you'd dou it, and thus labeled it as house rule already
and clearly, but just for completnes' sake, SRII, p. 147 states: "Even characters
who cannot cast spells can use Sorcery Skill for astral combat. It is for this
reason that physical adepts and others study sorcery."


Jhary
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Message no. 24
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:20:54 -0500
> Re: Allies and Sorcery (Robert Watkins , Thu 20:50)

> > > First, nothing states that a conjuring adept could conjure an ally.
> > But since conjuring is what they do, and it doesn't require an
> > active astral
> > presence to do it, I would say that it falls in their area of play.
>
> Ditto. Conjuring adepts must be able to conjure allies. It's a conjuring
> test.
>
> > > Then, even he was able to do it, the sorcery skill is equal to the
> > > sorcery of the conjurer, which is 0. Even if you allowed the conjurer
> > > to devellop sorcery, the spirit must (IMO) learn the spell from the
> > > conjurer, which isn't possible.
> >
> > Nope. The magician must learn the spell for the ally. Grimmy, pg 68
> > "Note that if a magician learns a spell for his ally, he does not learn it
> > himself. The ally knows it, not the master"
>
> Ah, I spot a catch... Conjuring adepts can't learn spells, anymore than a
> mundane could learn a spell.
> OTH, Sorcery is still a useful skill for an ally spirit even if it can't
> cast spells, as it would be a replacement skill for Astral Combat instead of
> Force.

Yes, learning the spell for the ally would be the catch. Sorcery would
have more uses than astral combat for the ally, though- it would get
spell defense and possobly be able to do warding, for example, both
tasks a conjuring adept can NOT use sorcery for.

-Mongoose
Message no. 25
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 05:39:42 -0500
> Re: Allies and Sorcery (Erik Jameson , Fri 13:27)
>
> At 10:34 AM 6/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Ditto for spell casting. A mage could show you the motions to go
> >through and tell you how to focus your mind, but you really wouldn't be
> >able to effectively cast a spell without actually doing it.
>
> I see little point to allowing mundanes "learn" spells. It does them
nothing.
>

More to the point, imo, you can't TEACH a spell unless you can cast it
(maybe not at full force, but you must be able to spell cast). I can't
see that its reasonable to LEARN something you can not TEACH. A mundane
might memeorize a spell formula, but that is diffrent.

> Here's a sideways step. A fair number of people *now* practice **%PPP [.8MP
deletedby auto FAQ crosscheck frame.]

This IS NOT a place this list should go. Period. That's my read of
the FAQ. Why? Well, AFAIK, current magic practice has NOTHING to say
about chucking firballs, and a lot to say about the internal state of
the user, and is therfore not very related to SR discussion.

Even considering that SR magic theory skill covers history, you'd have
to add a lot to make it relevant to 205X.

-mONGOOSE
Message no. 26
From: SThanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:08:44 -0400
Allies automatically get sorcery skill of the summoner, so since a
Conjuring Adept has no sorcery skill, unless of course he gets hit just for
the sole purpose of teaching allies to use sorcery, then this is bunk. The
latter is however, quite possible. Again, that brings up, could there be
Ally Conjuring Adepts?

At 04:21 PM 6/4/98 EDT, you wrote:
>OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give it the Sorcery
>power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma to give him
someone
>under his control that can cast spells?
>
Message no. 27
From: Mark Ellis <oronis@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:23:55 +0100
>
> Allies automatically get sorcery skill of the summoner, so since a
> Conjuring Adept has no sorcery skill, unless of course he gets
> hit just for
> the sole purpose of teaching allies to use sorcery, then this is bunk. The
> latter is however, quite possible. Again, that brings up, could there be
> Ally Conjuring Adepts?
>
> At 04:21 PM 6/4/98 EDT, you wrote:
> >OK, a conjuring adept can technically summon an ally, and give
> it the Sorcery
> >power, right? So, your conjuring Adept can burn his Karma to give him
> someone
> >under his control that can cast spells?
> >
>

Here's a thought. Does anyone see any reason why a conjurer couldn't have
more than one bound ally at a time. Since a conjuring adept has no real use
for a high magic attribute, there would be no real loss in burning it to
create a stable of spirits. Could almost end up like an astral version of
the Waltons :)

Mark
'Who is the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him ?'
Message no. 28
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:39:12 EDT
In a message dated 6/7/98 5:26:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
oronis@*********.CO.UK writes:

> Here's a thought. Does anyone see any reason why a conjurer couldn't have
> more than one bound ally at a time. Since a conjuring adept has no real use
> for a high magic attribute, there would be no real loss in burning it to
> create a stable of spirits. Could almost end up like an astral version of
> the Waltons :)
>
First of all, yes, i could see a "stable" of allies" as you put it. And
yes,
a conjuror does need a higher magic attribute, especially if said conjuror is
going to get into any major "Banishing Contests" with more powerful spirits
(as the Corps seem to be putting into usage at their facilities these days).

Also, please remember that "the first point of the Ally" is coming from the
magician's attribute, and IF the individual is not initiating, then there is
an effective end limit to the number of beings.

-K
Message no. 29
From: Mark Ellis <oronis@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Allies and Sorcery
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:08:06 +0100
> >
> First of all, yes, i could see a "stable" of allies" as you put
> it. And yes,
> a conjuror does need a higher magic attribute, especially if said
> conjuror is
> going to get into any major "Banishing Contests" with more
> powerful spirits
> (as the Corps seem to be putting into usage at their facilities
> these days).

There's the charm. With a few allies about, you have an astral defence force
par excellence, provided said allies actually have a reasonable amount of
karmic investment. Banishing wouldn't be quite so important, not that I'd be
without it.

>
> Also, please remember that "the first point of the Ally" is
> coming from the
> magician's attribute, and IF the individual is not initiating,
> then there is
> an effective end limit to the number of beings.
>
> -K
>

Reckon that karma is going to be a limit before a significant loss of magic
occurs. Unless of course you are going for ten a penny allies.

Mark
'Who is the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him ?'

Further Reading

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