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Message no. 1
From: Badger <rbrown@*.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:31:42 -0600
Have any of you out there allowed or thought about letting Phys-Ads have
Ally Spirits?

I've thought of two ways to do this.

First, the Adept must have astral perception and conjuring skill (Also
useful for banishing). I require astral perception because in our game
anyone who wants to interact with the astral (spell casting or conjuring)
must be able to perceive that plane. Then the Phys-Ad performs the Ritual
of Summoning.

Secondly, the Adept pays 1.5 times the karma necessary and must find a
mage/shaman who is able to perform the ritual. The Adept still must create
the formula himself but the mage/shaman uses it to perform the ritual. This
method is dangerous because the mage/shaman will have the formula for
the spirit and can use it for other rituals. The 1.5 times karma is to lure the
Spirit away from the summoner.

Then again there isn't anything in the Grimiore that says a Phys-Ad can't
have an Ally so maybe no rule changes are necessary.

Comments are appreciated, Positive critisism is taken, and
Flames are Welcome for the flavor they add to any good steak.

Badger
The Only Badger Ever Elected Emperor of the Hill.
Message no. 2
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:13:26 -0500
>
> Have any of you out there allowed or thought about letting Phys-Ads have
> Ally Spirits?
>
> I've thought of two ways to do this.
>
> First, the Adept must have astral perception and conjuring skill (Also
> useful for banishing). I require astral perception because in our game
> anyone who wants to interact with the astral (spell casting or conjuring)
> must be able to perceive that plane. Then the Phys-Ad performs the Ritual
> of Summoning.

Problem with this is that a physical adept cannot actually use conjuring
skill for anything but simple knowlege about spirits and the ways they are
summoned. He cannot summon spirits, he cannot bond them, he cannot banish
them and he cannot control them. The only way he can use their abilities
is if another mage/shaman assigns one of their spirits to him. If he
could do all this he would be both a phys-ad and a summoner (summoning
adept). You as a GM could decide these exist in your campaign but players
are allowed to do it I would recommend making them put a Full Mage
Priority into Magic when designing the character.

>
> Secondly, the Adept pays 1.5 times the karma necessary and must find a
> mage/shaman who is able to perform the ritual. The Adept still must create
> the formula himself but the mage/shaman uses it to perform the ritual. This
> method is dangerous because the mage/shaman will have the formula for
> the spirit and can use it for other rituals. The 1.5 times karma is to lure the
> Spirit away from the summoner.

This might work but I still think it gives the Phys-Ad an awful lot for a
little bit of Karma. Especially if those magic points the ally adds get
counted for boosting the amount of magic he can spend on phys-ad
abilities. Another problem I see...if you are having the phys ad LURE the
spirit away are you talking about having the shaman/mage summon an ally
and then set it free in the hopes that the large gift of karma the phys ad
is about to make will make it friendly to him? If so it isn't quite the
same thing as an ally anymore...;)

______________________________________________________________________________
Blair A. Monroe | bmonroe@******.fsu.edu | GLS/TW GC2.1
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-Anonymous | e++ u++ h+(*) f r--@ n-(----) y?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: An Unofficial Shadowrun Guru Named Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:12:06 +0200
>Have any of you out there allowed or thought about letting Phys-Ads have
>Ally Spirits?

The NAGM allows "physical magicians." These are part full-magician (mage or
shaman), and part physad; these guys could summon an ally spirit like any
other mage/shaman. Another possibility is for them to locate a free spirit,
find its True Name, and use Conjuring skill to bind it to them.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm not like them. But I can pretend.
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 4
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:57:15 +1000
Badger writes:

> Have any of you out there allowed or thought about letting Phys-Ads have
> Ally Spirits?

This sounds like the suggestion a while back about giving phys adepts
sheilding. And if you remember that, then you'll already know my views on
this topic :-)

I'd say it cannot be done. To conjure spirits requires a more extensive and
full link to the astral than a phys adept has (ie a full magician, which
requires an A preference on magic during character creation). Merely being
able to access the astral plane and having some knowledge about spirits
(Conjuring skill), does not enable you to conjure them. [Also, you mentioned
that you required anyone who wanted to interact with the astral,
spellcasting as an example, had to be able to astrally perceive as a
minimum. How do you cope with Sorcery Adepts, they can cast spells, but not
astrally perceive?] One can look at summoning an ally as an advanced version
of conjuring an elemental or nature spirit, it is more highly powered and
requires additional skill and effort. Now, since phys adepts cannot even
summon spirits of the normal kind, then why should they be able to summon
the more high powered ones? Note that the book does actually say that adepts
can't summon allys, in an indirect fasion. It says "magicians" can summon
allies, and elsewhere it explicitly says that the term magician refers only
to full blown mages and shamans. It seems to me that everyone is out to make
phys adepts more powerful than they already are, I don't think this is
warranted or neccessary, the character types seem perfectly balanced as they
are.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 22:00:45 +1000
Blair A. Monroe writes:

> Problem with this is that a physical adept cannot actually use conjuring
> skill for anything but simple knowlege about spirits and the ways they are
> summoned. He cannot summon spirits, he cannot bond them, he cannot banish
> them and he cannot control them.

With the exception of binding a free spirit. Anyone with a Conjuring skill
can pull this off.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 18:20:13 +0200
> > Have any of you out there allowed or thought about letting Phys-Ads have
> > Ally Spirits?
>
> This sounds like the suggestion a while back about giving phys adepts
> sheilding. And if you remember that, then you'll already know my views on
> this topic :-)

Pardon me, but it doesnt. Allowing PAs shielding dice=grade is pretty logical
and not against the rules (well not explicitly). Allowing them to summon is.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 7
From: Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:00:36 -0600
On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > > Have any of you out there allowed or thought about letting Phys-Ads have
> > > Ally Spirits?
> >
> > This sounds like the suggestion a while back about giving phys adepts
> > sheilding. And if you remember that, then you'll already know my views on
> > this topic :-)
>
> Pardon me, but it doesnt. Allowing PAs shielding dice=grade is pretty logical
> and not against the rules (well not explicitly). Allowing them to summon is.

Actually, according to the clarifications in the NAGM it is against the
rules. But, I don't think anyone cares. My house rules allow it, but
officially PhysAdepts get only centering and masking.

-Andrew
Message no. 8
From: Sean Sheridan <spsherid@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 20:22:40 -0500
It seems to me that everyone is out to make
>phys adepts more powerful than they already are, I don't think this is
>warranted or neccessary, the character types seem perfectly balanced as they
>are.

Just a gripe of my own, I have to say that phys adds are just about the
weakest bang for the buck, so to speak. If I put priority B in tech
instead of magic I could make a Sammie who could easily out perform an adept
any day of the week. How often do you really run across spirits who have
Immunity to Weapons? I mean, the adept might kick ass v.s spirits, but he
looses ALOT in the performance area.
The only plusses I see for Adepts is sneakiness. So if you want to play an
underpowered sneaky guy play an adept. But if you want a fighter they just
plane suck. I really ike them though, so it really gets under my skin. I
think the 1st edition guys were alot better, with higher reactions and auto
succsess. I mean, enhanced articulation = +1 die to all active skills,
throw in a few reflex recorders and you have +2 dice for a bunch of skills.
Wow, that just beats the shit out of the phys adept. Bring back the auto
succsess. But that magic/Adept thing in the NAGM that someone mentioned
might just bring back my favorite characters..
Sean
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:37:42 +1000
Sean Sheridan writes:

> Just a gripe of my own, I have to say that phys adds are just about the
> weakest bang for the buck, so to speak. If I put priority B in tech
> instead of magic I could make a Sammie who could easily out perform an adept
> any day of the week.

I don't want to get into the "Sammies vs Phys Adepts" argument, but I will
make a couple of observations on what you said. Firstly, in general, when it
comes to "off the shelf" characters, ie those made straight from the table,
sammies do usually tend to be better than Phys Adepts, you are right.
However, over the long term, a Phys Adept has a lot more potential than a
sammie (he isn't limited by his Essence).

> How often do you really run across spirits who have Immunity to Weapons?
> I mean, the adept might kick ass v.s spirits, but he looses ALOT in the
> performance area.

Phys Adpets are better at a lot more things than just kicking spririt butt,
though. I have yet to see a sammie who can outperform most of the Physical
Adepts I've seen in HtH combat.

> The only plusses I see for Adepts is sneakiness. So if you want to play an
> underpowered sneaky guy play an adept. But if you want a fighter they just
> plane suck.

Adepts do tend to be better when it comes to stealth, but likewise, one can
create a sammurai who is stealthy, or a combat orientated phys adept. I agree
that phys adpets get the arse end of the deal when it comes to reaction
enhancement though - it is more efficient Magic/Essence wise for them to get
wired reflexes than it is for them to by extra initiative dice (let alone
buy the increased reaction too).

> I think the 1st edition guys were alot better, with higher reactions and
> auto succsess.

Auto successes are just too munchkinous. The guy could have 4 auto
successes, and still hit even if he was Seriosuly Stunned and Wounded, was
running flat pelt over difficult terrain, while shooting at a target in full
cover while being affected by a level 20 Chaos spell. It was just not
logical. I agree with FASA for removing them.

> I mean, enhanced articulation = +1 die to all active skills, throw in a
> few reflex recorders and you have +2 dice for a bunch of skills. Wow, that
> just beats the shit out of the phys adept.

If your GM is allowing these thigns for beginning sammies, then he is being
unfair. It specifically says in the rules that S-Tech gear is not for
starting characters (pg 4 S-Tech). It is not fair to compare a straight from
the rules Phys Adept with a house rule affected sammie. Make a sammie using
_the rules_, and you'll see the two character types are a lot more even.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 10
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 01:18:39 -0500
>Sean Sheridan writes:
>
>> Just a gripe of my own, I have to say that phys adds are just about the
>> weakest bang for the buck, so to speak. If I put priority B in tech
>> instead of magic I could make a Sammie who could easily out perform an adept
>> any day of the week.
>
>I don't want to get into the "Sammies vs Phys Adepts" argument, but I will
>make a couple of observations on what you said. Firstly, in general, when it
>comes to "off the shelf" characters, ie those made straight from the table,
>sammies do usually tend to be better than Phys Adepts, you are right.
>However, over the long term, a Phys Adept has a lot more potential than a
>sammie (he isn't limited by his Essence).

(wonders when the ever elusive delta-grade cyberware will show up) Other
than the fact that tech is progressing in Shadowrun, phys ads do have the
edge in long term power. But overall it's not that big of an edge.

>> How often do you really run across spirits who have Immunity to Weapons?
>> I mean, the adept might kick ass v.s spirits, but he looses ALOT in the
>> performance area.
>
>Phys Adpets are better at a lot more things than just kicking spririt butt,
>though. I have yet to see a sammie who can outperform most of the Physical
>Adepts I've seen in HtH combat.

My samurai beat three phys ads in HTH. I haven't lost one-on-one vs. any of
the players of comparable karma level. CAN they be better than a samurai?
Yeah, of course. It all depends how you stack your points (my samurai
really likes HTH).

>> The only plusses I see for Adepts is sneakiness. So if you want to play an
>> underpowered sneaky guy play an adept. But if you want a fighter they just
>> plane suck.
>
>Adepts do tend to be better when it comes to stealth, but likewise, one can
>create a sammurai who is stealthy, or a combat orientated phys adept. I agree
>that phys adpets get the arse end of the deal when it comes to reaction
>enhancement though - it is more efficient Magic/Essence wise for them to get
>wired reflexes than it is for them to by extra initiative dice (let alone
>buy the increased reaction too).

My current character (a phys ad) is incredibly stealthy (stealth 8,
beginning character). More so than my samurai even. But both have very
high ratings. Still, its a point distribution thing. I like to play
stealthy characters and I see no reason why a samurai couldn't be, or even
why it wouldn't be standard for one.

>> I mean, enhanced articulation = +1 die to all active skills, throw in a
>> few reflex recorders and you have +2 dice for a bunch of skills. Wow, that
>> just beats the shit out of the phys adept.
>
>If your GM is allowing these thigns for beginning sammies, then he is being
>unfair. It specifically says in the rules that S-Tech gear is not for
>starting characters (pg 4 S-Tech). It is not fair to compare a straight from
>the rules Phys Adept with a house rule affected sammie. Make a sammie using
>_the rules_, and you'll see the two character types are a lot more even.

I did. I made a phys ad straight by the "rules" and a samurai as well.
Only books used were SR II, Grimmy II, and Street Samurai Sourcebook. Oh,
and the NAGM (didn't help my samurai out much as you can guess). And they
aren't anywhere near even. My samurai ended up getting betaware/bioware,
etc. And I guess I'll spend the karma to initiate my phys ad. But overall,
the samurai gets better stats for the karma/buck.

Once again (as if it needs to be said again) it's the player that defines
the character. Not the character that defines the character. (i.e. One of
the coolest characters in our new team is a Troll Water Elementalist. Not
at all the most EFFECTIVE of choices, but damn well played. Not everyone
has to be an elf hermetic or a troll samurai.) Please don't send
generalized crap over this list. It got tiring real quick in the Magic/Tech
bias line (which strangely became Magic VS. Tech, still not pleased about
that) and it doesn't get any more bearable.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 19:45:06 +1000
Bob Ooton writes:

> I did. I made a phys ad straight by the "rules" and a samurai as well.
> Only books used were SR II, Grimmy II, and Street Samurai Sourcebook. Oh,
> and the NAGM (didn't help my samurai out much as you can guess). And they
> aren't anywhere near even. My samurai ended up getting betaware/bioware,
> etc. And I guess I'll spend the karma to initiate my phys ad. But overall,
> the samurai gets better stats for the karma/buck.

The only major difference I could see in the comparative abilities of
starting sammies and phys adepts is the phys adepts lack of speed (he can't
quite compare with wired reflexes). Otherwise the phys adept can get
everything (+ more) that the sammy can get.

> Once again (as if it needs to be said again) it's the player that defines
> the character.

Very true, I agree, but a bit off the point in question.

> Please don't send generalized crap over this list.

Generalisations are a fact of life. It _is_ true that phys adepts are
generally better at stealth and HTH than samurais. Sure individual examples
can be pointed out, but over the whole, it is right. And it is true that
phys adepts _can_ specialise a heck of a lot better than any samurai can.
The physical adept is a lot more suited to HTH than a samurai. You can see
this simply by comparing the relative costs of extra skill dice for the
different skills. Due to the relative cheapness of extra HTH skill dice,
more players will go for the close combat phys adept than will not. Hence a
majority of physical adepts will be HTH specialists, hence it is valid to
make a generalisation. And a generalisation is just that, a GENERALisation,
it will have exceptions, it is defined that way.

Also note that "But overall, the samurai gets better stats for the
karma/buck.", is rather a generalisation too. No? :-)

> which strangely became Magic VS. Tech, still not pleased about that

<chuckle> You created a monster! :-) It got out of control. Magic & Tech
debates tend to do that, they quickly degenerate into Magic vs. Tech. Quite
similarly to how many "Magic" discussions end up as arguments over the nature
of "Real Magic". It's just the way things flow. :-)

> How many spirits (that a mage can get power over) are there that are...
> a) Force 8
> b) Possessing Immunity to Normal Weapons
>
> I'm also curious as to what spirit of yours had this power? (doesn't
> remember any spirits that had it...)

Well, they all do, in an indirect fashion. They have Manifestation, and if
you read the description under Manifestatin, you'll see it says they get the
Power of Immunity to Normal Weapons, but with a few restrictions.

> So? No mages with spells to cast or even a weapon focus? (likes to point
> out that mages can use weapon foci too)

Yeah, one of my players has a mage who is a HTH specialist (he specialised
in Pool Cue(!), a type of staff. Very humerous, but still effective enough.)

> Go somewhere where the spirit has no influence. (i.e. don't play in the
> swimming pool when the water spirit is angry...)

Fine with nature spirits, but kinda hard with elementals (and it is
elementals which players will probably run up against more often :-().

> Sure it's harder to heal a samurai, but it REALLY sucks to take a
> serious/deadly wound as a phys ad or a mage.

I'd rather lose a Magic Point than die.

> Also there's those stim patches and trauma patches that work wonders for
> the magically challenged.

Note that Trauma patches have no effect on Magic loss.

> And yes, Phys Ads can use cyberware too (look at Teachdaire in Prime
> Runners)

Yeah, but he's a 9th level Initiate or something. But you are right, Phys
adepts do have a lot more capacity to expand if they want to (they can get
all the cyber a samurai can, _plus_ their phys adept powers).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 12
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 15:45:33 -0500
>The only major difference I could see in the comparative abilities of
>starting sammies and phys adepts is the phys adepts lack of speed (he can't
>quite compare with wired reflexes). Otherwise the phys adept can get
>everything (+ more) that the sammy can get.

Still don't see that. Skillwires are WAY essence freindly and they can give
you ANY skill you want (with a chipjack or the right kind of headware).
Stat-wise, samurai can go up way faster and farther with the cybermods (phys
ads limited to 1.5 times racial max and it costs TONS of karma to get above
racial max in the first place.) The only "bonuses" that phys ads get over
samurai are Astral Perception, Weapon Foci (though to most GM's that mean
big, glowing target), and the fact that they get MAGICAL healing easier.

>> Once again (as if it needs to be said again) it's the player that defines
>> the character.
>
>Very true, I agree, but a bit off the point in question.

No, because a player could just as easily make a phys ad specialised in
firearms as a samurai specialised in HTH (there was an example of that back
in the Tech/Magic line...). Though the latter is far more common, it is no
less possible than the former.

>> Please don't send generalized crap over this list.
>
>Generalisations are a fact of life. It _is_ true that phys adepts are
>generally better at stealth and HTH than samurais. Sure individual examples
>can be pointed out, but over the whole, it is right. And it is true that
>phys adepts _can_ specialise a heck of a lot better than any samurai can.
>The physical adept is a lot more suited to HTH than a samurai. You can see
>this simply by comparing the relative costs of extra skill dice for the
>different skills. Due to the relative cheapness of extra HTH skill dice,
>more players will go for the close combat phys adept than will not. Hence a
>majority of physical adepts will be HTH specialists, hence it is valid to
>make a generalisation. And a generalisation is just that, a GENERALisation,
>it will have exceptions, it is defined that way.

Ummm, no again. That strength thing figures into HTH pretty big. I have
yet to see a phys ad match a samurai in that capacity. And lessee...0.5
magic points per 1 point of unarmed skill. That works out to be (18 karma
for 0 level initiation + 21 karma for 1st level) say around 19 points per
point of unarmed. Add in a group and a bunch of other mods and maybe it
hits in at around 15 per point. Now if a samurai wishes to bring his skill
up from 6 to 7 it costs 14. Overall the returns are fairly similar. Same
deal with armed combat. The phys ads overall karma cost will be lower as
the campaign goes on (and on and on...) and he may even get a few more dice
after a while (a long while...), but he still won't (unless the samurai
overlooks his strength, a common mistake...yeahsureright <sarcasm>) be as
strong as the samurai and thereby have the capacity for as much damage.

And generalisations are not a "fact of life" they're a way of making an
EXTREMELY varied group appear to be similar in every way.

>Also note that "But overall, the samurai gets better stats for the
>karma/buck.", is rather a generalisation too. No? :-)

Nope, unless you alter the rules in a hefty way it's the way the game's made.

>Well, they all do, in an indirect fashion. They have Manifestation, and if
>you read the description under Manifestatin, you'll see it says they get the
>Power of Immunity to Normal Weapons, but with a few restrictions.

Ah, true. S'why my sammy did better ripping a toxic apart with his claws
than he did with his Alpha. (always thought that Immunity to Normal Weapons
meant all forms of non-magic fighting. Manifestation is only vs. ranged and
even then is limited).

>Yeah, one of my players has a mage who is a HTH specialist (he specialised
>in Pool Cue(!), a type of staff. Very humerous, but still effective enough.)

And the man complains that samurai aren't as capable in HTH as phys ads...

>> Sure it's harder to heal a samurai, but it REALLY sucks to take a
>> serious/deadly wound as a phys ad or a mage.
>
>I'd rather lose a Magic Point than die.

Sure, anyone would. But I'd rather slap a stim on me and not worry about it.

>> Also there's those stim patches and trauma patches that work wonders for
>> the magically challenged.
>
>Note that Trauma patches have no effect on Magic loss.

Got a little patch happy I did. New point along that line, however, is that
mages take a +2 penalty to target numbers when receiving first aid. Not a
pleasant thought...

>> And yes, Phys Ads can use cyberware too (look at Teachdaire in Prime
>> Runners)
>
>Yeah, but he's a 9th level Initiate or something. But you are right, Phys
>adepts do have a lot more capacity to expand if they want to (they can get
>all the cyber a samurai can, _plus_ their phys adept powers).

Yep, sure can. But as was mentioned right there "he's a 9th level
initiate." Not to mention the fact that he's got deltaware. If you've had
a character around long enough to where he can get 9th level initiate and
have a GM who'll create cyberware like that, then yeah, you'll be pretty
damn phenomenal. (Wondering if phys ads have to take geasa for every two
points of magic they lose, as well....)


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
(wondering why he keeps replying to magic vs. tech lines...)
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:56:50 +1000
Bob Ooton writes:

> Still don't see that. Skillwires are WAY essence freindly and they can give
> you ANY skill you want (with a chipjack or the right kind of headware).

Well, if they're _that_ Essence friendly, then perhaps our Mr. Phys Adept
could do with a set :-) But you're right, skillwires are very effective and
as has been mentioned before, do not receive enough of a mention in the book
(just think of the applications for skillwires, and how they would change
society, and education in particular).

> Stat-wise, samurai can go up way faster and farther with the cybermods (phys
> ads limited to 1.5 times racial max and it costs TONS of karma to get above
> racial max in the first place.)

True, but not so many stat bonuses can be purchased initially. The
cybermonster may have 1 or 2 higher in some stats than the Phys Adept, but
wouldn't have any more than that unles he specialised henously (like level 4
Muscle Replacement or something yukky like that).

> The only "bonuses" that phys ads get over samurai are Astral Perception,
> Weapon Foci (though to most GM's that mean big, glowing target), and the
> fact that they get MAGICAL healing easier.

And the fact that they can purchase Phys Adept powers, which sammies can't.
(Natural LL/Thermo/Flare compensating eyes beat the heck out of the cyber
versions for example.)

> No, because a player could just as easily make a phys ad specialised in
> firearms as a samurai specialised in HTH (there was an example of that back
> in the Tech/Magic line...). Though the latter is far more common, it is no
> less possible than the former.

Yep, but a HTH designed Phys Adept is going to be more effective at HTH than
a HTH designed sammy, I still beleive that.

> Ummm, no again. That strength thing figures into HTH pretty big. I have
> yet to see a phys ad match a samurai in that capacity. And lessee...0.5
> magic points per 1 point of unarmed skill. That works out to be (18 karma
> for 0 level initiation + 21 karma for 1st level) say around 19 points per
> point of unarmed.

Point 1) This is after initial character generation (not off the rack types
as we were discussing).
2) If you took the example to grade 2, then the numbers would look
quite different.

> The phys ads overall karma cost will be lower as the campaign goes on (and
> on and on...) and he may even get a few more dice after a while (a long
> while...),

Assuming he doesn't buy any to begin with. For a single point of Magic he
can be two skill points ahead of the sammy to start. _That_ is why Phys
Adepts are usually so much better at HTH than sammies, they simply can have
higher skill levels at earlier times. And not to forget (as you did in the
above example) that Phys Adepts too can increase their skills directly using
karma, rather than getting initiated, so the Phys Adept, if he really wants
to, can stay those two points (or 4, or more) ahead of the sammy forever.

> but he still won't (unless the samurai overlooks his strength, a common
> mistake...yeahsureright <sarcasm>) be as strong as the samurai and thereby
> have the capacity for as much damage.

The only reason the sammy would be stronger is due to Muscle Replacement,
and that particular piece of cyber is so inefficient that nobody gets it
(unless they _really_ want to make sure they're stronger than the Phys
Adpet). But strength does not matter if you cannot score a hit. Skill is
more important than brawn. (And in SR Reach is more important than skill,
but anyway... :-)).

> And generalisations are not a "fact of life" they're a way of making an
> EXTREMELY varied group appear to be similar in every way.

Well, in that case we should remove the particlur word from the dictionary.
I was merely saying (and I still agree, you have yet to convince me
otherwise) that the majority of Phys Adpets are HTH experts.

> >Also note that "But overall, the samurai gets better stats for the
> >karma/buck.", is rather a generalisation too. No? :-)
>
> Nope, unless you alter the rules in a hefty way it's the way the game's made.

Likewise with the satement "Phys Adepts are better at HTH". It is written
into the rules - compare the costs for extra HTH skill dice with the others.

> >I'd rather lose a Magic Point than die.
>
> Sure, anyone would. But I'd rather slap a stim on me and not worry about it.

Each to their own, but while stun damage might be easy for a sammy to heal
(incidently it is just as easy for a magically active character to heal, it
just comes with a bit of a worry), the physical damage is particularily
worrying in my experience. While the magician can have the Phys Adpet from
Deadly +3 to nothing in 15 seconds (or some similar small time), he'll be
pushing it to save the sammies butt (ie get him below Deadly). But yes, you
have a definite point, having a Magic Attribute is a bit double edged.

> Wondering if phys ads have to take geasa for every two points of magic
> they lose, as well....

Hmm, good question...Ponders for a bit, flicks through rule books...I don't
think so. Geasa apply to the "use of" the characters magic. Phys Adepts
powers will be continuously running, he doesn't need to "activate" them in
the way that, say, a Sorcery Adept would. OTOH, I guess it is possible to
apply the Geas to the Phys Adept all the time. But then how do you deal with
it when he breaks the Geas? As it is, when a Geas is broke, the offender has
+2 to has associated Target Numbers. What does the Physical Adept get? +2
to the skill rolls of effected skills, and +2 to the rolls with effected
attributes?

> wondering why he keeps replying to magic vs. tech lines...

Easy. Because you, like me, are a compulsive arguer. Simply can't sit by
when there's a good argument to be had now can we? :-)

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:19:30 +0200
>> Wondering if phys ads have to take geasa for every two points of magic
>> they lose, as well....
>
>Hmm, good question...Ponders for a bit, flicks through rule books...I don't
>think so. Geasa apply to the "use of" the characters magic. Phys Adepts
>powers will be continuously running, he doesn't need to "activate" them in
>the way that, say, a Sorcery Adept would. OTOH, I guess it is possible to
>apply the Geas to the Phys Adept all the time. But then how do you deal with
>it when he breaks the Geas? As it is, when a Geas is broke, the offender has
>+2 to has associated Target Numbers. What does the Physical Adept get? +2
>to the skill rolls of effected skills, and +2 to the rolls with effected
>attributes?

A physad takes geasa on individual powers, reducing the Magic cost for the
power by 25% (minimum cost = .25). Take Killing Hands D with a Domain (City)
Geas, and the Killing Hands only cost you 3 Magic, but only works in the
city. Outside of the city, you'd do (str)M Stun as anyone else.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 15
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:00:23 +0200
> > Just a gripe of my own, I have to say that phys adds are just about the
> > weakest bang for the buck, so to speak. If I put priority B in tech
> > instead of magic I could make a Sammie who could easily out perform an adept
> > any day of the week.

Yep definitely.

> I don't want to get into the "Sammies vs Phys Adepts" argument, but I will
> make a couple of observations on what you said. Firstly, in general, when it
> comes to "off the shelf" characters, ie those made straight from the table,
> sammies do usually tend to be better than Phys Adepts, you are right.
> However, over the long term, a Phys Adept has a lot more potential than a
> sammie (he isn't limited by his Essence).

True, but its a damn long term advantage and it still isnt that great.

> > How often do you really run across spirits who have Immunity to Weapons?
> > I mean, the adept might kick ass v.s spirits, but he looses ALOT in the
> > performance area.
>
> Phys Adpets are better at a lot more things than just kicking spririt butt,
> though. I have yet to see a sammie who can outperform most of the Physical
> Adepts I've seen in HtH combat.

As others pointed out, its only a matter of points. And I dont see why a
Physad would spend points on HtH more than a sammie would - as a matter of fact
I dont see why anyone would pay more than lip sevice to HtH. I mean I can
sortof understand using weapons (weapons can be real cool and the reach
rules give you a very deadly edge), but in this modern day and age where
everyone and his brother has a firearm within reach an atempt at HtH
will probably result to a premature death.

> > The only plusses I see for Adepts is sneakiness. So if you want to play an
> > underpowered sneaky guy play an adept. But if you want a fighter they just
> > plane suck.
>
> Adepts do tend to be better when it comes to stealth, but likewise, one can
> create a sammurai who is stealthy, or a combat orientated phys adept. I agree
> that phys adpets get the arse end of the deal when it comes to reaction
> enhancement though - it is more efficient Magic/Essence wise for them to get
> wired reflexes than it is for them to by extra initiative dice (let alone
> buy the increased reaction too).

I think the original poster meant sneakiness as in lack of "ware". This
gives them the added bonus of going through all sort of scanning equipment
withough set off any alarms. As for regular "stealth" well its just a
matter of priorities.

> Auto successes are just too munchkinous. The guy could have 4 auto
> successes, and still hit even if he was Seriosuly Stunned and Wounded, was
> running flat pelt over difficult terrain, while shooting at a target in full
> cover while being affected by a level 20 Chaos spell. It was just not
> logical. I agree with FASA for removing them.

Yep.

> If your GM is allowing these thigns for beginning sammies, then he is being
> unfair. It specifically says in the rules that S-Tech gear is not for
> starting characters (pg 4 S-Tech). It is not fair to compare a straight from
> the rules Phys Adept with a house rule affected sammie. Make a sammie using
> _the rules_, and you'll see the two character types are a lot more even.

I agree, but PAs are still wimpier in a toe to toe fight with a sammie.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
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Message no. 16
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:07:41 +0200
> (wonders when the ever elusive delta-grade cyberware will show up) Other
> than the fact that tech is progressing in Shadowrun, phys ads do have the
> edge in long term power. But overall it's not that big of an edge.

Probably never and thats the way it should be :)

> >Phys Adpets are better at a lot more things than just kicking spririt butt,
> >though. I have yet to see a sammie who can outperform most of the Physical
> >Adepts I've seen in HtH combat.
>
> My samurai beat three phys ads in HTH. I haven't lost one-on-one vs. any of
> the players of comparable karma level. CAN they be better than a samurai?
> Yeah, of course. It all depends how you stack your points (my samurai
> really likes HTH).

Yep, thats how things look like out there boyz & girlz.

> Once again (as if it needs to be said again) it's the player that defines
> the character. Not the character that defines the character. (i.e. One of
> the coolest characters in our new team is a Troll Water Elementalist. Not
> at all the most EFFECTIVE of choices, but damn well played. Not everyone
> has to be an elf hermetic or a troll samurai.) Please don't send
> generalized crap over this list. It got tiring real quick in the Magic/Tech
> bias line (which strangely became Magic VS. Tech, still not pleased about
> that) and it doesn't get any more bearable.

Yep, I have tried playing a troll spell-tosser (a shaman to be precise)
and have encountered considerable resistance (read everyone ROTFL :)
so I see what you mean. How about geting a galery of "unusual characters"
together ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 17
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:44:00 PDT
Street samurai's are better than physical adepts for the first 75 karma. I
know this this a lot and that it takes quite a while to build up but after
that the adept has much more potential that the samurai. I would give 100
karma to gain a physical adept ability for my favorite runner. He is at 80
karma and already he is limited on what he can
Message no. 18
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 00:28:38 -0500
> Yep, I have tried playing a troll spell-tosser (a shaman to be precise)
>and have encountered considerable resistance (read everyone ROTFL :)
>so I see what you mean. How about geting a galery of "unusual characters"
>together ?

Sounds pretty sweet... do it on NERPS?


-- Bob Ooton
Message no. 19
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Allies for Physical Adepts
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:19:56 -0400
On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> Sounds pretty sweet... do it on NERPS?

Done there, been that -- see NERPS Foundations. Of course, we
could do it again if there's enough interest...but not until summertime
at the earliest.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| NERPS Project Leader (Editor & General Motivator), Keeper of the FAQ |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------

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