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Message no. 1
From: "Larry White (WPG) (Exchange)" <Larryw@********.MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Allies in Humans
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:22:45 -0800
A question for you, from my reading of
GRIMOIRE SECOND EDITION (tm FASA)
(c) 1992, probably first printing

Allies, Powers of Allies, Inhabiting, p. 67, top right corner, first two
sentences:
"The magician can provide an animal as well as a human host, using any
normal critter for this purpose. Paranatural animals are too magically
powerful to be used as hosts, as are sapient beings (such as people)."

These two sentences appear to be contradictory. Humans make good hosts, but
not people? Or can you only use a human if it is not sapient or is no
longer sapient?

As an aside, in my group I allow starting magicians to use Force points to
create a starting ally.

Larry White in Redmond (aka The Barrens)
Message no. 2
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: Allies in Humans
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 00:39 EST
>A question for you, from my reading of
>GRIMOIRE SECOND EDITION (tm FASA)
>(c) 1992, probably first printing
>
>Allies, Powers of Allies, Inhabiting, p. 67, top right corner, first two
>sentences:
>"The magician can provide an animal as well as a human host, using any
>normal critter for this purpose. Paranatural animals are too magically
>powerful to be used as hosts, as are sapient beings (such as people)."
>
>These two sentences appear to be contradictory. Humans make good hosts, but
>not people? Or can you only use a human if it is not sapient or is no
>longer sapient?
How can a human not be sapient(unless he's a dragon) Sapient is refering to
the species name ie, homo-"sapiens".
They either mean one of two things.
1)In the first sentence they may mean that the conjuring mage can provide
himself as the host, how else can an Insect hive be started? But noone else.
2)A voluntary (meta)human can be used as a host, but not an involuntary
(meta)human or a paranoramal (meta)human, ie Vampires,.
IMHO I would interpret this as example two.
---Sedah Drol
--
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
GC3.1
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Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Allies in Humans
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:21:05 GMT
sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr) writes

[note one, something is going on, in read my mailer does not put
carrige returns in your recent messages, this makes quotations you
make a pain to read, however in this editing mode its fine. Could you
try putting one blank line between quotes and your text if other are
having problems as this makes the start of your post tricky to find
sometimes wtih '>'s' scattered about the text. i have susspicions
about the lind end character they come through with]

> >A question for you, from my reading of
> >GRIMOIRE SECOND EDITION (tm FASA)
> >(c) 1992, probably first printing
> >
> >Allies, Powers of Allies, Inhabiting, p. 67, top right corner, first two
> >sentences:
> >"The magician can provide an animal as well as a human host, using any
> >normal critter for this purpose. Paranatural animals are too magically
> >powerful to be used as hosts, as are sapient beings (such as people)."
> >
> >These two sentences appear to be contradictory. Humans make good hosts, but
> >not people? Or can you only use a human if it is not sapient or is no
> >longer sapient?
Ah FASA contradicting themselves again. Nothing new.

> How can a human not be sapient(unless he's a dragon) Sapient is refering to
> the species name ie, homo-"sapiens".
This gets complicated. [sorry if the next is tricky if you don't know
any ED]
Sentient : technically that includes any species the united nations
etc. recognise as such, humans, all 4 metahumans, Dragons, sasquatch,
vampire, wendigo, etc. It would also include T-skrang, windling and
Obsidamen if they could find any to classify them.
Magic though makes matters more complex, as there is another sub
category of sentients, the 9 'namegiver' races. Namegiving is only
explained in Earthdawn, and then the players stuff tells you nothing
more than it exists, but its tied up with how pattern magic works and
why ED talents are better than skills. The namegivers and Humans, the
4 SR metahumans and the three extra ones listed above that SR does
not name, and finally the Dragons [the only namegiver you cannot play
as a PC in ED, and don't say why not, the ED dragons are even more
stupendously powerful than the SR ones, what with more magic and no
tech]

> They either mean one of two things.
> 1)In the first sentence they may mean that the conjuring mage can provide
> himself as the host, how else can an Insect hive be started? But noone else.
That is possible, insects don't need that actually, you invest other
people, and against thier will, though PC's will probably make the
resistance roll [there is one fortunately, but that does not stop the
queen eating you instead, pity.]

> 2)A voluntary (meta)human can be used as a host, but not an involuntary
> (meta)human or a paranoramal (meta)human, ie Vampires,.
> IMHO I would interpret this as example two.
voluntary only could be a reasonable sort out

> ---Sedah Drol
> --
Mark
Message no. 4
From: Mike Trebbien <mvt@*************.com>
Subject: Re: Allies in Humans
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:49:49 -0500
At 08:21 PM 12/13/95 -0500, you wrote:
>A question for you, from my reading of
>GRIMOIRE SECOND EDITION (tm FASA)
>(c) 1992, probably first printing
>
>Allies, Powers of Allies, Inhabiting, p. 67, top right corner, first two
>sentences:
>"The magician can provide an animal as well as a human host, using any
>normal critter for this purpose. Paranatural animals are too magically
>powerful to be used as hosts, as are sapient beings (such as people)."
>
>These two sentences appear to be contradictory. Humans make good hosts, but
>not people? Or can you only use a human if it is not sapient or is no
>longer sapient?

The mage, or shaman, could use a CLONE for a host body. I believe that
clones, the ones that are grown for clonal organ replacements, are not
sapient. If they were sapient it would seem to me that PETA would have
an offshoot called PETCH (P E T Clonal Humans), to protest the inhumane
ways the medical establishment of the 2050's uses them. Not all doctors are
completely corrupt (in 205x) so if they were sapient, it would seem to me that
word would have leaked out by now, since it is a fairly common practice to grow
clones for organ replacement.

Or, if the mage were a necromancer, he/she could use a corpse. The ally should
be able to animate it the same way it would animate a homunculus (sp?).


>Larry White in Redmond (aka The Barrens)
>
>
Mike
Message no. 5
From: W.Blount@*******.anu.edu.au (Warwick)
Subject: Re: Allies in Humans
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:35:05 +1100
>At 08:21 PM 12/13/95 -0500, you wrote:
>>A question for you, from my reading of
>>GRIMOIRE SECOND EDITION (tm FASA)
>>(c) 1992, probably first printing
>>
>>Allies, Powers of Allies, Inhabiting, p. 67, top right corner, first two
>>sentences:
>>"The magician can provide an animal as well as a human host, using any
>>normal critter for this purpose. Paranatural animals are too magically
>>powerful to be used as hosts, as are sapient beings (such as people)."
>>\

Following this thread there seems to be a slight interpretation problem

1. The quote as written says *sapient* not *sentient*

2. sapient (as pointed out previously) is as per homo SAPIENS (ie. monkey like)

3. SENTIENT is a being that has self thought (Cogito, Ergo Sum [I think,
therfore I am]) This includes dragons, humans (well, most:)), elves,
dwarves, maybe even AIs, etc, etc, etc.

I hope this has cleared up a few problems with ths argument.
Message no. 6
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Allies in Humans
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:40:49 +0000 (GMT)
>
>
> Following this thread there seems to be a slight interpretation problem
>
> 1. The quote as written says *sapient* not *sentient*

> 2. sapient (as pointed out previously) is as per homo SAPIENS (ie. monkey like)

Nope. Monkeys are NOT sapient. The Genus Homo-Sapien is Man. BUT Neanderthol
man was (I think) Homo-Erectus. The Nazis (and some elves)like to think of
themselves as Homo-Superior.

> 3. SENTIENT is a being that has self thought (Cogito, Ergo Sum [I think,
> therfore I am]) This includes dragons, humans (well, most:)), elves,
> dwarves, maybe even AIs, etc, etc, etc.
>
> I hope this has cleared up a few problems with ths argument.
>
>


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