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Message no. 1
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:29:08 -0700
An issue came up in tonites games that I'd wanted to bounce off you
guys.

We play the "Oops" of "All-ones" rule under the FoF option where 1's
equal to or greater than the skill rating in dice means an oops. (i.e.
- A character with Firearms 5 also adds 5 dice from Combat Pool, for a
total of 10 dice. Should five or more of those ten dice come up as 1's
some EGM bad thing happens.)

Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
from spell force and pool can never screw it up.

We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
it.

Ideas, comments or suggestions?

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.



_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:07:58 -0400
> From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 5:29 AM

> An issue came up in tonites games that I'd wanted to bounce off you
> guys.

> We play the "Oops" of "All-ones" rule under the FoF option where
1's
> equal to or greater than the skill rating in dice means an oops. (i.e.
> - A character with Firearms 5 also adds 5 dice from Combat Pool, for a
> total of 10 dice. Should five or more of those ten dice come up as 1's
> some EGM bad thing happens.)

> Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill

<Snippage>

> Ideas, comments or suggestions?

The following is a snippet from my house rules:

Magical Misfires

The basics of this rule are taken from the Shadowrun Companion. Basically,
a magical misfire occurs when the number of 1s rolled on a magical success
test EXCEED the rating of the skill being used or the base force of the
spell being cast (whichever is appropriate). Keep in mind that this
includes ALL dice from Magic Pool, Fetishes, Foci, Exclusivity, and Totem
Modifiers. If a magical misfire occurs, use the rules regarding failing
the Willpower test when distracted while extended casting on page 3. If
the number of 1s rolled are EQUAL to the skill being used or the base force
of the spell being cast, then some odd effect will occur, but the basic
intention will be kept. For example, if casting a spell, the spell will
still go off and will still strike the desired target, but it may not be
quite as effective as it would have been normally. Or perhaps the spirit
being conjured will be more resistant to your influence, thereby reducing
the amount of services you can earn from it. The effect of this is
entirely up to the GM's discretion.

The magical misfire rules are not being implemented in order to treat magic
as a completely random and chaotic force. However, when trying to shove
too much energy into the framework of a spell not designed to handle more
than a small amount of excess energy, you are asking for trouble.

Also, in my campaign, I don't use this rule for anything other than spell
casting. Hope that helps! :)

> ===
>
> @>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:46:36 +0100
|Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
|isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
|than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
|are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
|someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
|from spell force and pool can never screw it up.

If it was me GMing, I'd have the mage lose it.
He'd lose all control over the energy he was wielding, and it would ground
out... Through HIM.....

Resist for damage AND drain....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:51:45 -0400
Spike once dared to write,

>If it was me GMing, I'd have the mage lose it.
>He'd lose all control over the energy he was wielding, and it would ground
>out... Through HIM.....
>
>Resist for damage AND drain....

That's what I like about you. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"One can't complain. I have my friends.
Somebody spoke to me only yesterday."
-Eeyore, Winnie-the-Pooh

I am MC23
Message no. 5
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:56:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 08:47:59 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> If it was me GMing, I'd have the mage lose it.
> He'd lose all control over the energy he was wielding, and it would ground
> out... Through HIM.....
>
> Resist for damage AND drain....
> --
>
I've done that before...player kind of stared at me like I was the
plague...my normal ruling is if they do the "Roll of 1's", then the drain
code is increased by 1 category.
Message no. 6
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:39:56 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 05:31:06 EDT, you write:

<< Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
from spell force and pool can never screw it up.

We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
it.

Ideas, comments or suggestions?
>>

I believe that it was the rating of the spell or force of the
spirit/elemental (check the Shadowrun Companion), and then if it went over
it was a misfire and something went wrong, like a different elemental was
conjured a level above or below or the spell blew up in the caster's face, or
one time I had a manipulation spell create a new paranormal <insert evil
laugh now> which attacked the runners. It is lots of fun what you can do.

Enjoy,

Walker of Shadows
Message no. 7
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:03:13 -0700
---Walker of Shadows wrote:
>
> I believe that it was the rating of the spell or force of the
> spirit/elemental (check the Shadowrun Companion), and then if it
went over
> it was a misfire and something went wrong, like a different
elemental was
> conjured a level above or below or the spell blew up in the caster's
face, or
> one time I had a manipulation spell create a new paranormal <insert
evil
> laugh now> which attacked the runners. It is lots of fun what you
can do.

I remember the time a shaman in my original group oops'd when casting
Mana Missle at a security guard. I informed him he stammered in
casting the spell and it came out <spanish> Mañana </spanish>
Missle...but not to worry since the spell would hit him tomorrow. :o)

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:51:28 +0100
Loki said on 2:29/ 6 Jul 97...

> Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
> isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
> than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
> are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
> someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
> from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
>
> We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> it.

That sounds like a good enough compromise. If you were to base it on the
spell's Force, then even the world's greatest spellcasters would have a
major chance of a fumble when casting low-Force spells, while avoiding
fumbles should be based on skill -- someone who doesn't know what he or
she is doing has a much greater chance of messing up big-time than someone
who's done the same thing a million times before.

OTOH this does mean that if you cast a spell with less dice than your
skill level you never ever mess up. Since spellcasting is supposed to be
more of an art than a science, that doesn't feel right either. In short,
I'd base it on the Sorcery skill, but let all ones take precedence, like
you suggest.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:58:52 -0400
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:51 AM

> Loki said on 2:29/ 6 Jul 97...

<Snip>

> > We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> > dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> > it.

> That sounds like a good enough compromise. If you were to base it on the
> spell's Force, then even the world's greatest spellcasters would have a
> major chance of a fumble when casting low-Force spells, while avoiding
> fumbles should be based on skill -- someone who doesn't know what he or
> she is doing has a much greater chance of messing up big-time than
someone
> who's done the same thing a million times before.

> OTOH this does mean that if you cast a spell with less dice than your
> skill level you never ever mess up. Since spellcasting is supposed to be
> more of an art than a science, that doesn't feel right either. In short,
> I'd base it on the Sorcery skill, but let all ones take precedence, like
> you suggest.

Here's another suggestion. How about you use the standard magical misfire
rules (basing it on the force of the spell), BUT when casting a spell you
make an extra wound modified (4) test with your sorcery skill. Every
success earned offsets one 1 rolled while casting the spell. This does
NOT, however, apply to rolling all 1's. That is a botch, and can only be
avoided with karma, per the normal rules. Of course, there is no need for
making this extra test unless you are going to misfire with the way the
dice rolled. If you don't roll enough 1's to misfire, just don't make this
test. This test is an attempt to hold the magic together in the form of
the spell being cast, while it is trying to come apart at the seams. I
allows for knowledge of magic to offset some of the hazards of stuffing too
much mana into too small of a base spell. Comments?

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Justin :)
Message no. 10
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:03:21 -0700
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> Here's another suggestion. How about you use the standard magical
misfire
> rules (basing it on the force of the spell), BUT when casting a
spell you
> make an extra wound modified (4) test with your sorcery skill. Every
> success earned offsets one 1 rolled while casting the spell. This
does
> NOT, however, apply to rolling all 1's. That is a botch, and can
only be
> avoided with karma, per the normal rules. Of course, there is no
need for
> making this extra test unless you are going to misfire with the way
the
> dice rolled. If you don't roll enough 1's to misfire, just don't
make this
> test. This test is an attempt to hold the magic together in the
form of
> the spell being cast, while it is trying to come apart at the seams.
I
> allows for knowledge of magic to offset some of the hazards of
stuffing too
> much mana into too small of a base spell. Comments?

It's an idea. However, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. and don't like
adding extra die rolls and math to the system unless deemed absolutely
necessary. Plus, it doesn't tie in with the other skill rolls where a
player rolls the dice and counts how many 1's he got...is it >= your
skill? Yes? Well you just botched it!

Something like you're suggesting actually offers a mage two chances to
avoid an opps in spell casting: first they have to roll the 1's on the
Spell casting in the first place. Then is they do get a number of 1's,
they get a second roll to offest those. A sammy, rigger or decker
doesn't get to roll some theory or other type of skill to offest their
1's rolled in firearms, car or computer.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 11
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:16:51 -0400
> From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 3:03 PM

<Snip>

> It's an idea. However, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. and don't like
> adding extra die rolls and math to the system unless deemed absolutely
> necessary. Plus, it doesn't tie in with the other skill rolls where a
> player rolls the dice and counts how many 1's he got...is it >= your
> skill? Yes? Well you just botched it!

I know, I prefer KISS too. But I haven't found a way to implement the rule
of 1 without it going overboard and not allowing skilled mages to cast low
level spells without a ton of worries about misfiring.

> Something like you're suggesting actually offers a mage two chances to
> avoid an opps in spell casting: first they have to roll the 1's on the
> Spell casting in the first place. Then is they do get a number of 1's,
> they get a second roll to offest those. A sammy, rigger or decker
> doesn't get to roll some theory or other type of skill to offest their
> 1's rolled in firearms, car or computer.

Um, actually, I believe you have missed something. I stated that this new
roll only applies to magical misfires that aren't botches. Botches can't
be avoided without the use of karma...regardless of what type of a botch it
is. Keep in mind that a magical misfire isn't necessarily a botch...just a
number of 1's rolled equal to the base force of the spell or the skill
being rolled. Therefore, not all the dice have to come up as 1's to
misfire....therefore, most misfires aren't botches. This makes it too
harsh on skilled magicians, thus the extra rule. After all, the magical
misfire rules add to the amount of bookkeeping necessary anyway. If you
choose to implement them into your game, you should make sure they are
balanced. The way they are in the companion, a skilled mage can cast a
force 1 or 2 spell and misfire it quite often. Not very realistic.

> ===
>
> @>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Justin :)
Message no. 12
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:09:56 -0700
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> I know, I prefer KISS too. But I haven't found a way to implement
the rule
> of 1 without it going overboard and not allowing skilled mages to
cast low
> level spells without a ton of worries about misfiring.

Exactly. Which is why I came to the list on this question after it
came up in our game. I think what I suggested before on basing it off
the Sorcery skill, but allowing all 1's to take precedence, will prove
to be a healthy compromise in our game.

<snip>

> Um, actually, I believe you have missed something. I stated that
this new
> roll only applies to magical misfires that aren't botches. Botches
can't
> be avoided without the use of karma...regardless of what type of a
botch it
> is. Keep in mind that a magical misfire isn't necessarily a
botch...just a
> number of 1's rolled equal to the base force of the spell or the
skill
> being rolled. Therefore, not all the dice have to come up as 1's to
> misfire....therefore, most misfires aren't botches. This makes it
too
> harsh on skilled magicians, thus the extra rule. After all, the
magical
> misfire rules add to the amount of bookkeeping necessary anyway. If
you
> choose to implement them into your game, you should make sure they
are
> balanced. The way they are in the companion, a skilled mage can
cast a
> force 1 or 2 spell and misfire it quite often. Not very realistic.

OK, I see where you're coming from on this now. We don't use the
misfire rules from SRC, so what you'd suggested didn't tie directly
into how we're playing things. We're just going off the sugested rules
in FoF where 1's equal to or greater than the skill being used is a
botch. Then a botch is a botch, no misfires or other levels just one
big Oops!

Thanx for the input though. :o)

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:39:09 GMT
Loki writes
>
> We play the "Oops" of "All-ones" rule under the FoF option where
1's
> equal to or greater than the skill rating in dice means an oops. (i.e.
> - A character with Firearms 5 also adds 5 dice from Combat Pool, for a
> total of 10 dice. Should five or more of those ten dice come up as 1's
> some EGM bad thing happens.)
>

Next is from the companion.
> Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
> isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
> than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
> are rather touchy.
correct, i threw this rule straight out of the window, never mind the
fact the companion never bothered to say if you counted the 1's
before or after using karma pool!

> Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery?
Would make a LOT more sense.
As the companion rule stands a magician taking the example in the
Grimoire of throwing loads of dice into a force 2 spell is almost
bound to screw up, grade 3 initiates with power foci and force 1
fashion spells become sweating dynamite with this rule on spell
force, ones > sorcery would be a lot more sensible, and tes even
sorcery 6 characters could screw up, start playing with elementals
and fetish foci and you can roll an awful lot of dice! [the cost and
prep time is prohibitive though, but no more so than the merc getting
that gyromounted GPHMG with APDS set up, results are similar, no
more target :) ]

> This means
> someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
> from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
Yes they can, roll few dice and all 1's becomes all too possible!

>
> We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> it.
>
> Ideas, comments or suggestions?
Mark

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