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Message no. 1
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:37:50 -0500
Hi Rob here I've watching this list for about a week, but this is my firs=
t
post.

its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of poin=
ts
of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.
The other stuff is easy, they players just spent the points for their
characters.

In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire. =


In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
character could have 40+ Good Karma points.

I harly every used my 1st ed. store karma as once used it was gone. The 2=
nd
ed. allowsw DM's to refresh these pools and it suggests refreshing at the=

start of each combat.

My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to=

40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.=


Rob.

P.S. The law of dimishing returns make a 400pt. character still playable
with the exception of this Good Karma Pool
I read the piece by Loki (from the Netrunner site, I think) but would lik=
e
other peoples views.

.Look momi no flames.......

.
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:26:20 -0500
> From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 6:37 AM

<Snip>

> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.

Here's what I do: I don't let them get that high. Not through railroading
or anything like that, but I just play a fairly gritty and lethal campaign.
Thus, the players are forced to use their good karma to save their butts
sometimes....thus depleting any horde of karma they have saved up. I don't
use beefed-up NPCs, either. However, some of the NPCs are intelligent and
are more effective at tactics than the PCs. Once the PCs start planning
ahead more, the karma loss will lessen. I use 1st edition karma, btw.
Although, I award 1 karma pool point to any PC with a thorough and
realistic character background.

> Rob.

> P.S. The law of dimishing returns make a 400pt. character still playable
> with the exception of this Good Karma Pool
> I read the piece by Loki (from the Netrunner site, I think) but would
like
> other peoples views.

I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
work.

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:53:22 -0700
Robert Cozens wrote:
/
/ its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of
/ points of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.

I abolished the Karma Pool in my game (existing Karma Pool points
became regular karma). Character's may *burn* regular karma to buy
successes for tests at a cost equal to the target number of the test
divided by 6, rounding up. So if a character is facing a test with a
target number of 8 and wanted to buy a success he would burn 2
karma. And I allow characters to buy successes after they've rolled
dice for the test.

Also, to buy a success for a skill test the character must have the
required skill for the test, or have rolled at least one natural
success by defaulting through the skill web.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:56:38 -0500
Message text written by Shadowrun Discussion
>If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had=

saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
work.<

Ridding Characters of Cash is never a problem.
Retirment isn't in my plan. I hate having to give up perfectly good & wel=
l
thought out characters. =


If the powerfull retire then why is Harlequin still around?. As the
characters gain tech / cash / rep, they start writing their own adventure=
s.
The campains become less hack and slash and more political. Or at least
thats what has happened in my games.

Rob....
Message no. 5
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:45:17 -0005
On 4 Feb 98 at 6:37, Robert Cozens wrote:

> Hi Rob here I've watching this list for about a week, but this is my
> first post.
>
> its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of
> points of re-roll (Good I think) Karma. The other stuff is easy, they
> players just spent the points for their characters.
>
> In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
> early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.

Stop using 1st Ed rules
>
> In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
> character could have 40+ Good Karma points.

Good Karma isn't used for rerolls in 2nd Edition, only Karma Pool can be.
And even 40 dice in the pool can disappear quick.
The first reroll uses only 1 dice.
The second reroll takes 2 more
The third 3 more
The forth 4 more at which point 10 of those 40 dice are gone until the
pool refreshes.
That's assuming all those rerolls were for the same test, and I've seen
it happen. Character gets into a jam and really needs a lot of successes
to pull something off, but the TN is an 8 or a 10. So a lot of karma pool
gets used getting those successes. This is really effective if they have
to use a skill they either aren't very good at or have to default to
through the skill web. For example, the sammie has to make a leadership
roll to rally the panicked NPCs to keep them fighthing. The GM says you
need 6 successes. The sammie doesn't have leadership and so has to
default to street etiquette 4 at a +2 TN, tough luck, better buy some
successes with that karma pool.
Another rule I use is from the Shadowrun Comp, staggered karma pool
progression. Basically, the first 5 dice added to karma pool are added
per 10 points good karma earned. Then next 5 per 20 points good karma,
then 30, then 40 and so on. Makes getting 40 dice in the Karma Pool very
hard unless you earn something like 2000 good karma. I've only ever seen
that legitimately happen once since 1989.
One other thing, it's up to the game master when the karma pool
refreshes. Now I'm not saying a GM should be cruel, but there's nothing
wrong with stretching an encounter or "scene" out a bit longer, which
means that karma pool has to be stretched further.

>
> I harly every used my 1st ed. store karma as once used it was gone. The
> 2nd ed. allowsw DM's to refresh these pools and it suggests refreshing at
> the start of each combat.

That "1st ed karma store" is now just 20 points of good karma, and is
going to waste just sitting there. You can't use it for rerolls under 2nd
ed rules and you shouldn't be switching back and forth between the two.
The only characters that ever benefit from "storing" up karma are
magicians and adepts. And they rarely have enough to spare to store any
up.

>
> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.

Other than what I've already said, I can only add this. Don't plan those
encounters so "neatly". Players rarely do what you expect them too. It's
like getting into a bar fight and asking the other guy to "punch like
this" so you can "block like that", he'll look at you funny and then take
your head off. If you plan an encounter that depends on the characters
reacting in a certain way, you've probably doomed the encounter to flop.
Second suggestion, don't run games that are so combat intensive. Make
the characters think more and fight less, karma pools are pretty near
useless when the player has to solve a puzzle. Make them use other skills
besides combat skills or spells. Social skills are sorely under-rated, so
are knowledge skills. Having the character face situations they have to
talk or think their way through can provide some refreshing challenges.
Third, wear the karma pool down from time to time. Create a climatic
situation where the character has to "burn karma" (buy successes which
permanently reduces the pool) to succeed. Maybe a big fight between the
team and an arch-nemesis. Make it theatrical and very dramatic, build the
tension. The players will love it because afterward they'll feel like
they really achieved something, don't tell them you did the whole thing
just to reduce their karma pools.

Hope that helped.

> P.S. The law of dimishing returns make a 400pt. character still playable
> with the exception of this Good Karma Pool I read the piece by Loki (from
> the Netrunner site, I think) but would like other peoples views.

Characters can very playable at 400 pts and beyond. Most of my magician
characters are just getting "warmed up" at around 200 pts. One other word
of advice. Use the training rules to discourage players from pouring all
that karma into just a few skills and running the ratings up. Set up lots
of situations where the characters need other skills and encourage the
characters to learn those skills. Maintaining a broad range of skills
uses up karma fast.
--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:30:19 -0500
On Wed, Feb 04, 1998 at 06:37:50AM -0500, Robert Cozens wrote:
> Hi Rob here I've watching this list for about a week, but this is my first
> post.
>
> its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of points
> of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.
> The other stuff is easy, they players just spent the points for their
> characters.
>
> In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
> early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.
>
> In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
> character could have 40+ Good Karma points.
>
> I harly every used my 1st ed. store karma as once used it was gone. The 2nd
> ed. allowsw DM's to refresh these pools and it suggests refreshing at the
> start of each combat.
>
> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.
>
> Rob.
>

There's lots of ideas out there as you'll soon see.
I've stuck with 1st edition karma rules, and just added
the idea of a Team Karma pool. (With a chance to loose points
permanently from the pool, each time you use it, and the chance
goes up the higher the total in the pool is). My players seem to enjoy
this, and even characters that have been played for a few years,
aren't invulnerable. My players tend to save karma, in case I've
still got a few more tricks left. :)
They keep an average of 10 pts of karma for rerolls etc, and the
rest goes to character development, or donating the team pool.
(Oh, I also rule that new characters have to go on at least
two runs, before they can donate or draw from the team karma pool).
This is just my house rule of course. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:38:34 +0000
And verily, did Ashlocke hastily scribble thusly...
|> its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of
|> points of re-roll (Good I think) Karma. The other stuff is easy, they
|> players just spent the points for their characters.
|>
|> In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
|> early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.
|
| Stop using 1st Ed rules

No. Don't. If you prefer 1st Ed, like I do, continue playing it.
The point is, in 1st Ed, if you spent Karma on anything, it was gone,
*poof*.

Reroll? Fine that'll be one Karma for the first, two for the second, 3 for
the third, etc....
That Karma DOES NOT regenerate. There's no such thing as a Karma pool in 1st
Ed. All Karma is equal.

If he wants to restrict himself by lowering his potential. (Karma to
increase skills/stats/initiation), fine. It is his choice.

|>
|> In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
|> character could have 40+ Good Karma points.

Which regenerate at the end of each adventure or session, or whenever the GM
rules it should.

| Good Karma isn't used for rerolls in 2nd Edition, only Karma Pool can be.
| And even 40 dice in the pool can disappear quick.

But it comes back! You only burn it if you want auto-successes.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:40:34 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 06:39:27 EST, RobCozens@**********.COM writes:

> Hi Rob here I've watching this list for about a week, but this is my first
> post.

Well Hi Rob, you should've said hello sooner...

> its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of points
> of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.
> The other stuff is easy, they players just spent the points for their
> characters.

How did I handle them? Wow, I don't really know how to describe it, I usually
let their own troubles accumulate upon them I guess. I allowed the 'power
race' to occur on occasion between the PC's and the NPC's. Other options were
to allow the PC's to spend their Good Karma on behalf of other PC's and NPC's
(and wow was this fun on occasion).

> In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
> early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.

Sounds like a PAD (Physical Adept to us) that we had here. He liked to make
sure that things always remained a challenge, regardless of how powerful they
were. So he never let his Good Karma pool go above 20. If it did, he'd spend
it (burn it) on behalf of one of his contacts or in some project he had at the
time.

> In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
> character could have 40+ Good Karma points.
>
> I harly every used my 1st ed. store karma as once used it was gone. The 2nd
> ed. allowsw DM's to refresh these pools and it suggests refreshing at the
> start of each combat.

There is always that nifty rule about rerolls and karma cost..1st point is 1
point, 2nd reroll point is 2 more points...if you are in a bad situation, I
MEAN BAD HERE, then getting several rerolls to stack the odds as heavily as
possible into one's favor was always nice.

> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.

Two things, I never stopped them, I figured if they could stop me, they
deserved whatever they earned. And I never 'neatly planned' anything as such.
I created general outlines and let people move through the outline, leaving
options open as to how a situation may or may not possibly occur.

> P.S. The law of dimishing returns make a 400pt. character still playable
> with the exception of this Good Karma Pool
> I read the piece by Loki (from the Netrunner site, I think) but would like
> other peoples views.

I haven't read Loki's stuff, I had originally planned to meet the guy this
year in AZ, but my plans have changed, maybe I should now. And a character is
-always- playable at any level, it's a matter of how it's played that makes it
so. Ask Bull about this. He's beyond the 400-500 mark and has recently
gotten a good comment or two about his playing...

> .Look momi no flames.......

Not yet, but certain minds on this list will change that for ya...
-K (Good to have ya on board Rob)
Message no. 9
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:01:46 -0500
Message text written by Shadowrun Discussion
>Well Hi Rob, you should've said hello sooner...
<

I would have done but I've just worked out how to post messages.

Doh!

Anyway it was fun listening for a while.

my character (currently retired) was a Mage / Decker. He was designed
within a couple of weeks of Shadowrun becoming available here in the UK
(1989 ish). I managed to play almost every week (2/3 sessions) for 2 1/2=

years, then I graduated from uni. He developed cyberlimb cyberdecks after=
a
nasty accident with a Basilisk and an exploding Troll. Instead of using a=

keyboard he developed a five-finger keypad interface then re-wired his
damage arm. =

He managed to continue to play even after VR 1 book banned his character=

combination. That is to say that mages couldn't deck (+2 TN in cyberspace=
/
per point Magic), which was a rule I completly disagree with. =

He finally 'lost it, so to speak, when during the Imago adventure he
managed to loose his final point of Magic turning into a mundane.
Then he finally went into retirement after becomming dissillusioned with
the new typesof mages the he was expected to run with. He out classed the=
m
in every way and couldn't cast a spell. =

He might be found on the streets playing the plues on his silver saxophon=
e.



Rob....
Message no. 10
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:20:34 -0800
Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
<snip>

> I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
> that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
> their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
> deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
> would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
> saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
> work.

You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 11
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:22:49 -0800
Robert Cozens wrote:
>
> Ridding Characters of Cash is never a problem.
> Retirment isn't in my plan. I hate having to give up perfectly good & well
> thought out characters.

I agree wholeheartedly

> If the powerfull retire then why is Harlequin still around?. As the
> characters gain tech / cash / rep, they start writing their own adventures.
> The campains become less hack and slash and more political. Or at least
> thats what has happened in my games.

You could also focus more on intercharacter RP, which is really more the
point of why I play ;)

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:30:31 -0700
Panther` wrote:
/
/ Robert Cozens wrote:
/ >
/ > If the powerfull retire then why is Harlequin still around?. As the
/ > characters gain tech / cash / rep, they start writing their own adventures.
/ > The campains become less hack and slash and more political. Or at least
/ > thats what has happened in my games.
/
/ You could also focus more on intercharacter RP, which is really more the
/ point of why I play ;)

That's the best solution to highpowered characters, roleplay roleplay
roleplay.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:35:24 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 11:31:10 EST, dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

<snipped other similar comments> from Panther and Rob and etcetera...

> / You could also focus more on intercharacter RP, which is really more the
> / point of why I play ;)
>
> That's the best solution to highpowered characters, roleplay roleplay
> roleplay.

Guys, I think Binder would have just fainted dead away ... hearing all of
this. It makes me take back almost every nasty thing I've ever said about
anyone "not understanding how to play"...
-K (please note I said almost ;)
Message no. 14
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:37:03 +0100
(Wrong mailer. Sorry for any inconveniences.).

Okay, about players with too much karma. In the campaign we run it is not that
hard to keep players' karma manageably low, due to a slight modification of the
rules. You can burn karma that has allready been spent, so it is a 'last ditch'
defence that is an option any time. Thus it is a lot more likely to be used.
Otherwise, in ordinary play, it is usually a lot more useful to reroll, and
then get perhaps 3-4 successes, compared to burning karma for just one success.
It does give the players a potent tool to cheat death, but that's ok by me.

It took a while before the players burnt karma the first time, and rather took
the damage. "Burning a point of KARMA to avoid that severe wound?!? You
kidding or something?" soon became "Severe damage's too dangerous. I burn two
points to dodge.".

Anyone else using karma pool that way?
Message no. 15
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:54:46 -0500
At 10:40 AM 2/4/98 EST, you wrote:
>> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
>> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.
>
>Two things, I never stopped them, I figured if they could stop me, they
>deserved whatever they earned. And I never 'neatly planned' anything as
such.
>I created general outlines and let people move through the outline, leaving
>options open as to how a situation may or may not possibly occur.

Um, guys, I think the point was he was trying to build challenging
encounters, and the players would walking through them unscathed, not that
the players wouldn't following the 'script'. This, because of their
ability to re-roll and cheat old Mr. Murphy of his due.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 16
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:17:05 -0700
Thus spake Ashlocke:
>
> Good Karma isn't used for rerolls in 2nd Edition, only Karma Pool can be.
> And even 40 dice in the pool can disappear quick.
> The first reroll uses only 1 dice.
> The second reroll takes 2 more
> The third 3 more
> The forth 4 more at which point 10 of those 40 dice are gone until the
> pool refreshes.

We use a house rule that states that for every successive karma reroll,
the cost is double. In this case, the 1st reroll is 1 karma, the second
is two karma, the third is four, the fourth is eight...

--
| We all enter this world in the same way: naked;
Mike Loseke | screaming; soaked in blood. But if you live
mike@*******.com | your life right, that kind of thing doesn't
| have to stop there. -- Dana Gould
Message no. 17
From: Predator Omega <ba1764@*******.BAYNET.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:31:12 +0100
Hi Chummers,

here's a house-rule that may be helpful. In our game (I one of five Gms
in my group) we've restricted the karma pool to 5 points per person. The
team karma is split up in several fields:
5 points for magic
5 for decking
5 for riging
5 for psi (skip it if you don't have psionics)
10 for combat
and 5 for all other things.

Players are not allowed to burn the team pool unless all other players
agree (this means nearaly never). Personal karma is used for this that's
the players decision. And most of us have the Bad Karma flaw as to be
found in the SR companion (a very usefull book by the way).

Hope it helps a bit.

CU
Predator
Message no. 18
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:07:32 +0100
At 04-Feb-98 wrote Justin Pinnow:



>I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
>that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
>their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
>deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
>would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
>saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
>work.

And I disagree with you here Justin, one million isn`t much
and basing a retire point on the cash a char has is IMHO silly.
Setting any retirement point from the GM out is silly IMHO, let the players
play their chars as long as they like, it will come the day when they
want to retire this char from alone.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:15:42 -0005
On 4 Feb 98 at 15:38, Spike wrote:

> | Stop using 1st Ed rules
>
> No. Don't. If you prefer 1st Ed, like I do, continue playing it.
> The point is, in 1st Ed, if you spent Karma on anything, it was gone,
> *poof*.

That would be fine, in which case they shouldn't be using 2nd edition
karma rules. MY point was that the two should not be combined, it creates
a seriously unbalanced situation. But then you might have noticed that if
you read my post carefully.
It reminds me of a situation online not long ago where a GM was running a
game under 1st ed rules and all the players were using 2nd ed. The GM
apparently didn't tell the players he was using only 1st ed rules and a
lot of confusion and arguing ensued. Who it was isn't important, what is
important is that when you mix editions you often get poor results. From
the wording of the original post is seems both 1st and 2nd edition karma
rules are in use, and that's a bad thing.


>
> Reroll? Fine that'll be one Karma for the first, two for the second, 3
> for the third, etc.... That Karma DOES NOT regenerate. There's no such
> thing as a Karma pool in 1st Ed. All Karma is equal.

Yes, I believe that point was already clear.
>
> If he wants to restrict himself by lowering his potential. (Karma to
> increase skills/stats/initiation), fine. It is his choice.
>
> |>
> |> In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
> |> character could have 40+ Good Karma points.
>
> Which regenerate at the end of each adventure or session, or whenever the
> GM rules it should.

Nope, wrong... good karma does not regenerate. You said so yourself
above. Karma Pool refreshes, Good Karma does not. Part of the confusion
here comes directly from mixing 1st ed concepts with 2nd ed concepts,
which in this case, are not compatible.

>
> | Good Karma isn't used for rerolls in 2nd Edition, only Karma Pool can be.
> | And even 40 dice in the pool can disappear quick.
>
> But it comes back! You only burn it if you want auto-successes.
>
(The blue karma came back! <chuckle>)

It only comes back when it refreshes which is determined by the game
master. Get into a long running battle and even absurdly large karma
pools get depleted. And so long as that battle keeps going, the game
master is being perfectly reasonable to rule that the karma pool does not
refresh *until after the battle is over*. Which means players who make a
habit of relying on karma pool to get through the day will find themselves
in a sad situation quickly. The characters that survive will be the ones
who developed their skills and learned their limits.

Of course this is all a moot point if you insist on 1st ed karma rules in
which case there is no karma pool at all!

Under 1st ed rules a character who "lowers their potential" as you put
it, and develops their skills is still better off in the long run. Why,
because a rating 7 firearms skill will continue to give you 7 dice to roll
long after the guy with a 5 firearms skill has run out of good karma to
use to "boost" the skill. It's a matter of reliability and durability.
--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R
Message no. 20
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:45:22 PST
>Hi Rob here I've watching this list for about a week, but this is my
first post.

[Al Anon tone] "Hi, Rob..."

>
>its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of
poin=
>ts
>of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.
>The other stuff is easy, they players just spent the points for their
>characters.
>
>In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
>early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.

I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know
this is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others-
but, did these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?
Jesus, I can't believe any character out there gets past the
200-karma mark. If they don't have enough nuyen to for permenant luxury
or high lifestyle, retire with what they got. The game can't possibily
be any fun when you have the stats that'll geek Verjigorm.
As a GM(DM's are for AD&D), I rarely let me PCs get past 100, and
when they do- I do a "retirement run". I suggest most players do the
same. Why? Because if you keep a character for too long, not only is
the character achieved God-like status, but you start to become sloppy
professionally and learn to rely on nothing but your god-like numbers.
Then, when some GM says "I want only 0 karma characters" you get your
hoop kicked because you only had a firearms of 6 instead of 24 -assuming
of course they have 0 karma characters in their stockpile.
Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
only in the 2-digit range).
Tell this GM of your group he has two options: Retire them, or kill
them- and never let them get that high again. For my oldest char,
getting ready to retire herself, these two options may be one in the
same. YOu see, she has a serious hate-on for MCT(she has 97 karma), and
is going to do a big run against them- if she lives, she'll retire. If
she dies, she'll "Take as many of those MCT slags with me as I possibly
can".


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 21
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:46:38 -0500
On Wed, Feb 04, 1998 at 01:15:42PM -0005, Ashlocke wrote:
> On 4 Feb 98 at 15:38, Spike wrote:
>
> > | Stop using 1st Ed rules
> >
> > No. Don't. If you prefer 1st Ed, like I do, continue playing it.
> > The point is, in 1st Ed, if you spent Karma on anything, it was gone,
> > *poof*.
>
> That would be fine, in which case they shouldn't be using 2nd edition
> karma rules. MY point was that the two should not be combined, it creates
> a seriously unbalanced situation. But then you might have noticed that if
> you read my post carefully.
> It reminds me of a situation online not long ago where a GM was running a
> game under 1st ed rules and all the players were using 2nd ed. The GM
> apparently didn't tell the players he was using only 1st ed rules and a
> lot of confusion and arguing ensued. Who it was isn't important, what is
> important is that when you mix editions you often get poor results. From
> the wording of the original post is seems both 1st and 2nd edition karma
> rules are in use, and that's a bad thing.
>
<BIG SNIP>
I don't see a necessarry incompatibility with 1st vs 2nd. Just be
clear about your rules, and recognize that it is a house rule.
I've posted my rules before, I have them written out (along with
several other house rules). I hand them to my players before they start
play. I think the problem your describe, is that the GM isn't
clear on how karma works (or he wants it to work), the players are
trying to go by the book, and chaos reigns.
:) I would actually like to see SR3 give a couple of options for
karma.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 22
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:01:37 -0005
On 4 Feb 98 at 10:17, Mike Loseke wrote:

> Thus spake Ashlocke:
> >
> > Good Karma isn't used for rerolls in 2nd Edition, only Karma Pool can be.
> > And even 40 dice in the pool can disappear quick.
> > The first reroll uses only 1 dice.
> > The second reroll takes 2 more
> > The third 3 more
> > The forth 4 more at which point 10 of those 40 dice are gone until the
> > pool refreshes.
>
> We use a house rule that states that for every successive karma reroll,
> the cost is double. In this case, the 1st reroll is 1 karma, the second
> is two karma, the third is four, the fourth is eight...

Hehe... in which case that prodigous karma pool is gonna get depleted
even faster. All the more reason to develop good skills and good team
work and *not* rely on karma pool.
--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R
Message no. 23
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:05:03 -0500
On Wed, Feb 04, 1998 at 10:45:22AM -0800, Damon Harper wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know
> this is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others-
> but, did these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?
> Jesus, I can't believe any character out there gets past the
> 200-karma mark. If they don't have enough nuyen to for permenant luxury
> or high lifestyle, retire with what they got. The game can't possibily
> be any fun when you have the stats that'll geek Verjigorm.
> As a GM(DM's are for AD&D), I rarely let me PCs get past 100, and
> when they do- I do a "retirement run". I suggest most players do the
> same. Why? Because if you keep a character for too long, not only is
> the character achieved God-like status, but you start to become sloppy
> professionally and learn to rely on nothing but your god-like numbers.
> Then, when some GM says "I want only 0 karma characters" you get your
> hoop kicked because you only had a firearms of 6 instead of 24 -assuming
> of course they have 0 karma characters in their stockpile.
> Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
> karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
> the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
> only in the 2-digit range).
> Tell this GM of your group he has two options: Retire them, or kill
> them- and never let them get that high again. For my oldest char,
> getting ready to retire herself, these two options may be one in the
> same. YOu see, she has a serious hate-on for MCT(she has 97 karma), and
> is going to do a big run against them- if she lives, she'll retire. If
> she dies, she'll "Take as many of those MCT slags with me as I possibly
> can".
>
Ouch. I think the problem depends on what type of campaign you play.
My runs aren't exactly low power, but I do use my own house rules
for Karma. (1st edition rules, with only a team karma pool).
Average karma per adventure is 5 pts. (plus a pt or two, for brilliant roleplaying on
occasions, if you can paralyze the group with laughter its always a good thing). I also
have set a cap on how high you can
raise stats from your base, and skills. This keeps the power levels
somewhat realistic, and makes even older characters mortal.
Characters usually spend some karma on their skills, spells, whatever,
occasionally they trade it for cash, and usually save some for
their next run. My Combat Mage, was created in 90.
Played him for about 4 years. He has an ally, lots of spells, initiation
etc. His Karma stands at 17 last time I checked. As for
players retiring. I think it depends on choice. Sometimes you
get tired of a character. (The above mage, retired and invested in
a night club, so he is now a contact, and occasional backup).
I didn't retire him due to power level, but because I wanted a change.
I personally think its up to the GM to keep the money, karma, etc
balance. (Oh, I think if I totalled up all the karma my mage ever
earned, it may be in the 300 pt range). But this is his second ally,
(first one went free), he knows roughly 25-30 spells, and has several
foci. (He's also gone through several foci over time, don't you hate
it with your power foci 4, you just bonded explodes! :))
IMHO of course.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 24
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:19:31 -0700
Thus spake Ashlocke:
>
> On 4 Feb 98 at 10:17, Mike Loseke wrote:
>
> > Thus spake Ashlocke:
> > >
> > > Good Karma isn't used for rerolls in 2nd Edition, only Karma Pool can be.
> > > And even 40 dice in the pool can disappear quick.
> > > The first reroll uses only 1 dice.
> > > The second reroll takes 2 more
> > > The third 3 more
> > > The forth 4 more at which point 10 of those 40 dice are gone until
the
> > > pool refreshes.
> >
> > We use a house rule that states that for every successive karma reroll,
> > the cost is double. In this case, the 1st reroll is 1 karma, the second
> > is two karma, the third is four, the fourth is eight...
>
> Hehe... in which case that prodigous karma pool is gonna get depleted
> even faster. All the more reason to develop good skills and good team
> work and *not* rely on karma pool.

Exactly. I've always felt that the karma pool should only be used for
"save my butt" situations and for when something absolutely must happen.
Making rerolls everytime I just want a favorable outcome would make
playing the game pointless. I could just go write a story that has the
desired results.

--
| We all enter this world in the same way: naked;
Mike Loseke | screaming; soaked in blood. But if you live
mike@*******.com | your life right, that kind of thing doesn't
| have to stop there. -- Dana Gould
Message no. 25
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:33:19 -0500
Message text written by Shadowrun Discussion
>| Stop using 1st Ed rules
>
> No. Don't. If you prefer 1st Ed, like I do, continue playing it.
> The point is, in 1st Ed, if you spent Karma on anything, it was gone,
> *poof*.

That would be fine, in which case they shouldn't be using 2nd
edition
karma rules. MY point was that the two should not be combined, it create=
s
a seriously unbalanced situation. But then you might have noticed that i=
f
you read my post carefully.<

Sorry peeps you missunderstood. I started playing 1st ed. then as time
went on I converted all the characters to 2nd ed. =

I have helped '60 + people to sample the joys of shadowrun and ,after
finding this newsgroup, I look foreward to hearing other DM's opinons on
some of the problems that I have faced thoughout the years. The game's
great, I've spent hundreds on it. Like all good things, they are not
perfect. The shadowrun rules leave much open to interpretation, I'm just
seeking other peoples views.

Rob...
Message no. 26
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:42:37 -0800
Damon Harper wrote:

<snip>

> As a GM(DM's are for AD&D), I rarely let me PCs get past 100, and
> when they do- I do a "retirement run". I suggest most players do the
> same. Why? Because if you keep a character for too long, not only is
> the character achieved God-like status, but you start to become sloppy
> professionally and learn to rely on nothing but your god-like numbers.
> Then, when some GM says "I want only 0 karma characters" you get your
> hoop kicked because you only had a firearms of 6 instead of 24 -assuming
> of course they have 0 karma characters in their stockpile.

Only 100 karma? My main character (Arianna) is just now approaching
200, and she hasn't even come close to approaching this 'God-like'
status you speak of. I mean hell, her only double-digit skill rating is
her dance skill, which is entirely useless in combat.
So it's *very* possible to have a character with that much karma or more
without having superhuman abilities.

> Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
> karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
> the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
> only in the 2-digit range).

Only if it's combat intensive. If you focus more on the roleplaying
aspects of the game, then you shouldn't have much of a problem with
that. The game I'm in has characters with close on 300 karma (that I
know of) as well as brand-spankin'-new, never-run-before characters, and
with the focus of the game on the RP as it is, we don't have a problem
with the difference in karma levels, IMHO.

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 27
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:35:49 -0005
On 4 Feb 98 at 10:45, Damon Harper wrote:


> I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know this
> is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others- but, did
> these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?

Blargh... give it a rest will you. Shadowrun has no "mandatory"
retirement point. And characters only cease to be interesting and fun
when the players stop roleplaying.
--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R
Message no. 28
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:37:40 -0800
At 06:37 2/4/98 -0500, Robert Cozens insinuated:
>its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of points
>of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.
...
>My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
>40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.

I'm one of those consistency freaks who doesn't give Threat Ratings to
NPCs. I give them Dice Pools... and Karma Pools. If I don't like how
well I rolled against the PC's, I let the NPC decide whether or not to
use *their* Karma Pool the same way I would as a PC. If there are PC's
out there with 40 dice in their Karma Pools, there are going to be NPCs
out there with even more...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 29
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:44:58 -0500
This also fits with NPCs using HOG. I recently witnessed this here in (as -K calls it,
Lafalot)

-DEG.

----------
From: Max Rible[SMTP:slothman@*********.ORG]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 2:37 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: All That Karma

At 06:37 2/4/98 -0500, Robert Cozens insinuated:
>its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of points
>of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.
...
>My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
>40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.

I'm one of those consistency freaks who doesn't give Threat Ratings to
NPCs. I give them Dice Pools... and Karma Pools. If I don't like how
well I rolled against the PC's, I let the NPC decide whether or not to
use *their* Karma Pool the same way I would as a PC. If there are PC's
out there with 40 dice in their Karma Pools, there are going to be NPCs
out there with even more...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 30
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:48:45 -0700
Damon Harper wrote:
/
/ I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know
/ this is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others-
/ but, did these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?
/ Jesus, I can't believe any character out there gets past the
/ 200-karma mark. If they don't have enough nuyen to for permenant luxury
/ or high lifestyle, retire with what they got. The game can't possibily
/ be any fun when you have the stats that'll geek Verjigorm.

/ Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
/ karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
/ the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
/ only in the 2-digit range).

I disagree. Currently the PCs in my game average 350 karma. Running
games isn't at all hard. I present them with a solid in depth story,
NPCs with character, obstacles that require their skills (maglocks,
watcher spirits, etc) and a couple combats to add spice.

The key to running a game for experience characters is creating a good
story with plenty of dynamics for them to weave through.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 31
From: fluxion <fluxion@**.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:19:45 -0500
>I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
>that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
>their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
>deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
>would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
>saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
>work.


Common sense to you or I, yes. But to someone who has lived out their life
on the streets, it's all they know. I for one wouldn't know where to begin
in starting an actual life as a 'runner' in today's society, and I'm sure
the opposite is true for a lot of runners. When you've spent the majority
of your life dodging bullets, stealing, extacting, and doing other such
illegal activities, you don't learn how to function in normal society.

Bear in mind this doesn't apply to a lot of runners, just some. I can
easily see most deckers or mages settling down after running the shadows for
a few years, but the street sam who isn't comfortable without a gun within
reach might suffer from this problem.

What I'm getting at is that a group of experienced runners might graduate
into a corporate strike force, or some other comparably elite military style
team. It would be generally lower risk, especially considering their
"God-like" power, higher job security, etc.

Just my two cents


- f l u x i o n -
www.halofax.com/raven13
ICQ UIN : 249638
Message no. 32
From: Kevin R Mohondro <mohkev@******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:09:43 -0800
[SNIP]

> (Oh, I also rule that new characters have to go on at least
> two runs, before they can donate or draw from the team karma pool).
> This is just my house rule of course. :)

I don't have a rule about this.However, my players enforce it themselves.
New characters have to prove themselves by participating on a couple runs
before the team will even consider letting them join. There are currently
four members of the team and three other characters that are trying to
prove themselves. It's wierd that the team considers one of the NPC's more
of a team member that the other players. But, it makes for a little more
realism.

--
-Moe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin R Mohondro mohkev@******.com
Software Engineer
SalePoint/Retail Interact (619) 552-2026
Message no. 33
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:42:14 -0700
I have been reading this thread and I've noticed that a number of people
keep giving Karma levels like 200 points, 500 points, etc. and exclaiming
in a horrified voice "Why haven't they retired yet...they should have more
then enough money."

It's interesting to note that the common underlying theme seems to be that
the shadowrunners are only running for money. No, they are not, a
person's reason for running are as varied as the mind is imaginative.

He or she could be running for the thrill of it, or because the system
failed them somewhere along the line and they feel the only way they can
help people or correct a wrong is from within the shadows. It could be
because of something as simple as revenge to clearing their names of a
crime they did not commit. Either way I am sure you get the idea by now.

The object for some maybe to get enough money to retire but it never has
been for the groups I've gamed with. It was about making a difference and
continuing to make a difference as long as one could. The original
campaign I was in would make most balk except maybe Keith as Binder would
be around the same level (and yes K, my eyes did come out a little -
smirk - but not that much). When that game ended we were well into the
3000 karma spent range having started in 1st ed and adapting into 2nd and
on up...we had alot of skills (most being around 8, highest about a 15)
but we never felt god-like and our GM made certain we were always
challenged, the lethality rate in his game was quite high and yet we still
had fun (and no we were not taking on dragons on a regular basis).


In the end, our final run as a team, only two lived and we used every
trick in the book to do it. The payoff was the largest we had ever had.
At that point most people likely would have retired but my character with
that run had finally gained the last piece of evidence to clear his name
which after three more runs he did and was reinstated within is old unit.

Our game was never about stats and numbers or money...money was a means to
an ends and quite often our runs netted us an average of 20k nuyen each
per run but that went pretty fast as each team member contributed to a
team fund for setting up safehouses, for maintaining false identities and
individual safehouses, the occassional upgrade, paying off contacts and
keeping them happy. We were using SOTA and other things from recent rule
books long before they came out and we had some fairly wicked upgrades
that almost everyone on this list would likely be in an uproar about.

This particular game lasted six years spanning 11 game years and a fair
number of the runs we completed were role-playing based because we learned
early on that if you try and solve things by violence you die really
quick.

Most of my other characters that I have played usually do not go past the
three hundred mark but there are a few and its funny because retiring
when they have, they are just entering their prime as runners. For those
of you that have a problem with high karma levels take a look at Prime
Runners sometime and work out the numbers.

I am not saying that every campaign should or that every player wants his
runner to become a "Player in the Big Leagues of the Primes." and nor
would I expect them to. I would however expect you to play or run your
game in a way that makes you comfortable and allow others to do the same.

Keith plays a magic-heavy campaign, I do not and to be honest at first I
was a little uncomfortable but just because you don't play a certain way
doesn't mean others shouldn't. It's all a matter of accomodation.

As for not burning Karma, as to the NO ONE ever burns karma..you may have
been facetious but in case you weren't...every game I've ever played in or
GM'd someone usually more then one has burned Karma Pool Points to live.

As for another system to keep Karma down, the one we used was only if a
runner receives 10 full points during that run does he put a point into
his pool. Most of the runs I've GM'd and a fair number of runs that I have
played in have only doled out about 4-8 karma so this does (FOR US) keep
the pool down and given that people do burn Karma on the occassional basis
that further keeps it down.

Well that's my bit for now,
Bruce aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.
Message no. 34
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:36:36 PST
>Only 100 karma?

I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall upon
deaf ears.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 35
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:49:04 +1000
Panther writes:
>> I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and
have
>> that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
>> their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for
less
>> deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY,
I
>> would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
>> saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
>> work.
>
>You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
>That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
>all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.


If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
(it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 36
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:50:40 PST
>I disagree. Currently the PCs in my game average 350 karma. Running
>games isn't at all hard. I present them with a solid in depth story,
>NPCs with character, obstacles that require their skills (maglocks,
>watcher spirits, etc) and a couple combats to add spice.
>
>The key to running a game for experience characters is creating a good
>story with plenty of dynamics for them to weave through.

If you are comfortable with running powerful characters, then more
power to you. Personally, for me, playing with characters that surprise
the 100-150 mark get rather stale. If the player himself doesn't get
bored knowing that his character will win, then he will get bored
knowing the GM will let him win. I've also seen several games, esp on
IRC- but in RL as well, were the GM killed off a "high-karma" character,
but the player was so attached to the character(a complex-and that's
what it is- that is usually the sole reason players let the characters
get so high-powered) that they tried to bring that same dead character
back for another game- "Hey, didn't I kill him off *last* week?".


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 37
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:53:21 -0600
Panther` wrote:
>
> Justin Pinnow wrote:
> >
> <snip>
>
> > I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
> > that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
> > their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
> > deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
> > would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
> > saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
> > work.
>
> You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
> That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
> all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.

lots of reasons that people run the shadows you have to look at what the
PC motives are in all cases
some might retire some might go into semi retirement and only take the
jobs they want etc etc.
--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 38
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:09:10 -0800
Damon Harper wrote:
>
> >Only 100 karma?
>
> I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall upon
> deaf ears.

I'm sorry if I sound a little defensive here, but I feel that you're
attacking my response with your statement. First off, I don't want to
start a flame war or anything like that, it just seems that you're
insulting my response, and therefore my opinion.

I don't run Arianna for power, or money, or whatever. I have a *very*
clear idea of her bg, and why she runs. If she wanted money, she'd just
put all her time and effort into her dancing. She runs because she
wants to know the truth about how/why her mother died. And from what
little she knows, her mother was a decker. Unfortunately she had NO
clue as to where/how to find out, so she turned to the shadows to try
and learn. She's not out for revenge, she just wants the truth. Once
she finds out, she's likely to retire from the shadows if she gets the
break she's wanted all her life and gets a contract as far as her
dancing goes.

I only ask that you be a little more polite next time.

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 39
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:18:02 -0700
Thus spake Damon Harper:
>
> >I disagree. Currently the PCs in my game average 350 karma. Running
> >games isn't at all hard. I present them with a solid in depth story,
> >NPCs with character, obstacles that require their skills (maglocks,
> >watcher spirits, etc) and a couple combats to add spice.
> >
> >The key to running a game for experience characters is creating a good
> >story with plenty of dynamics for them to weave through.
>
> If you are comfortable with running powerful characters, then more
> power to you. Personally, for me, playing with characters that surprise
> the 100-150 mark get rather stale. If the player himself doesn't get
> bored knowing that his character will win, then he will get bored
> knowing the GM will let him win. I've also seen several games, esp on
> IRC- but in RL as well, were the GM killed off a "high-karma" character,
> but the player was so attached to the character(a complex-and that's
> what it is- that is usually the sole reason players let the characters
> get so high-powered) that they tried to bring that same dead character
> back for another game- "Hey, didn't I kill him off *last* week?".

Just because a character has 350+ karma, or even over 100 karma,
doesn't mean that they're suddenly invulnerable or boring. If this is
the case then they should probably be looking for a new GM, because he
is probably not offerring enough of a challenge for the character. Sure,
the higher karma characters are a little more powerful and will often
come out on top, but it's the GM's responsibility to make it a challenge.
A campaign can get stale at under 20 karma if the GM isn't into it.

I've played one character up to just over 350 karma and I was afraid
for his life on every single run. This is because the threat level kept
going up and the group never had the resources or time to relax or refit
to a level that would make us comfortable. It was the most enjoyable
long-run campaign I ever played in. *And* the character died. For good.
He never had enough nuyen to retire either.

--
| We all enter this world in the same way: naked;
Mike Loseke | screaming; soaked in blood. But if you live
mike@*******.com | your life right, that kind of thing doesn't
| have to stop there. -- Dana Gould
Message no. 40
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:29:52 -0800
Robert Watkins wrote:

> >You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
> >That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
> >all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.
>
> If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
> (it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).

True, although not everyone has the investment skills to be able to do
that properly IRL, so therefore the same applies in SR. My PC has 1.5
mil, but she wouldn't know how to make that kind of investment, so the
money's just sitting in the bank.

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:38:03 +1000
>Robert Watkins wrote:
>
>> >You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
>> >That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
>> >all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
>> (it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).
>
>True, although not everyone has the investment skills to be able to do
>that properly IRL, so therefore the same applies in SR. My PC has 1.5
>mil, but she wouldn't know how to make that kind of investment, so the
>money's just sitting in the bank.


1.5 million, sitting in a bank, at, oh, 3% interest...

That's 1,500,000 x 0.03 a year, or 45,000Y a year. Spin off a few hundred K,
buy your house, and live off the interest. Do it in a tax haven, and you'll
see all of that money coming back.

I repeat, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle.
Message no. 42
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:59:58 -0800
Damon Harper wrote:
>
> >Only 100 karma?
>
> I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall upon
> deaf ears.

I'm sorry if I get a little defensive here, but it seems you missed my
point. My char does NOT run for money, she doesn't need to. If it was
money, she could just put all her time and energy into dancing. And I
don't her play to make her 'superhuman' or whatever you're trying to
say. She runs to find out how her mom died, because from what little
she knows, she suspects her mom was a decker. Not that she wants
revenge, she just wants to know the truth. I don't care about karma or
power or any of that. I just love the theater, and by that token, RP as
well.

I don't want to start a flame war, I just feel you were attacking my
response with your statement. And for a lot of characters, at 100
karma, if RP properly, they're just starting to get good, especially if
they have magic (physads included).

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 43
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:58:54 +0000
> >Only 100 karma?
>
> I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall upon
> deaf ears.

Well, yes and no. Keep in mind you're posting to the list, not to a
single person. Which is why you use this kind of arguing technique.

(And why I use it, as a matter of fact, right now. Annoying, isn't
it? :).

Enough on that.

Let's see... characters with lots of karma. An interesting subject.
There is a few reasons to play such characters...

Primarily, I guess, people get attached to their character. Thus they
are not interested in starting new ones, and definitely not killing
them off. Instead they add detail, and like a good wine, the
character gets better with time.

Secondarily, any power gamer with a powerful character would probably
play on for reasons that is quite similar, but not identical... scale
up. They want a character that saves the world every week, be Mr.
Super. That's okay but not very cyberpunk. (Noone's saying it must
be, mind.).

There's a few reasons not to, too.

First off, if a character starts getting a lot of karma, the GM is
probably not pushing them hard enough. (How much is 'a lot' ? Dunno,
frankly. Perhaps 100. Perhaps 1000. Lady luck should decide. But if
someone's pushing 500 karma, then it might not be that well earned.).

Secondly, a fresh start with a new team is a way to develop a
character with completely new motives, background, behaviour. This
is often an opportunity for a refreshing change of pace. If you've
portraited a single character for two+ years, you're becoming
afflicted by the Bela Lugosi.(sp?) syndrome.

Thirdly, a lot can be said for a dramatic finale to a powerful
character. (One of the world's premier assassins died today trying to
hunt down that most potent of prey, Lofwyr... sound fun?).

Fourthly, you can get bored with the character, or find out he has
less potential than the rest of the group, and decide to try to
convince the rest into starting over.

Someone mentioned turning into other venues - politics, owning corps,
and so on. Ok, true - that's what we have Corporate Shadowfiles for,
after all - but that is technically keeping on playing after they
retire.

A comment: Characters which run becuase they pursue a goal... if you
haven't found that goal by 500+ karma, are you sure you're looking
hard enough?

To sum it up, I don't think it is healthy for a gaming group to
have unchanging characters for more than a year or so. It will grow
stale, dangerously close to a 'karma handout session', UNLESS they
have an immensely creative GM. There is no need to consider this
post a denigration of those with lots of karma. Most of you sound
like you have very inventive GM's. It's just a good idea to keep the
risks in mind.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 44
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:22:56 +0000
> Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > >You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
> > >That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
> > >all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.
> >
> > If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
> > (it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).
>
> True, although not everyone has the investment skills to be able to do
> that properly IRL, so therefore the same applies in SR. My PC has 1.5
> mil, but she wouldn't know how to make that kind of investment, so the
> money's just sitting in the bank.
>
> Panther

SR 2050's is a 'hot' market. Presumably, stocks pay off about as well
as they did a year or two ago, which was about 30-50%P.A. if you
played safe, and 100-200% P.A. if you didn't and were lucky. Placing
a mill in a (stock manager's fund) would pay off more than enough to
keep a high lifestyle from one million. You need 12% interest to make
a million pay for one year's high lifestyle. 12% interest (or
equivalent) is real easy if you have a million... even if you pay
someone else to do all the work for you. And anyone should know that,
even if they didn't have a head for cash. Knowing it and doing it is
two different things, though - ask anyone who ends up heavily in debt
after winning the lottery. (I got a million! Yeah! Quit the job,
laugh at the boss, buy a car, a boat,PARTY, a big fucking house,
cool! .... ooops the cash just ran out, I have a drinking problem, I
can't get my job back and I'm fucked syndrome. Happens quite often -
more than half the time.).

Another detail is that shadowrunners doesn't necessarily expect to
have that much of a future, and makes the most out of the present
instead.. even gets addicted to 'a little' luxury.. So if they had a
million, they'd not unlikely switch to a 200000 a month lifestyle.
(Luxury's 100000 and up.).. and stay there until cash ran short,
which they probably would. Common behaviour, too.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 45
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:18:10 +0000
In article <01bd31ba$ff9e89a0$8c23ad80@*******>, fluxion
<fluxion@**.EDU> writes
>>I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
>>that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
>>their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
>>deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
>>would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
>>saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
>>work.
>
>
>Common sense to you or I, yes. But to someone who has lived out their life
>on the streets, it's all they know. I for one wouldn't know where to begin
>in starting an actual life as a 'runner' in today's society, and I'm sure
>the opposite is true for a lot of runners. When you've spent the majority
>of your life dodging bullets, stealing, extacting, and doing other such
>illegal activities, you don't learn how to function in normal society.

How do you become a "normal person" after you're used to the high-octane
adrenaline of a firefight? I only experienced simulated combat, and I
still miss the incredible awareness, the sensation of being _alive_,
that fear and exertion and the desperate desire not to let your
teammates down brings.

"Animal Mother's a real nice, normal guy. All he needs is someone to
throw hand grenades at him for the rest of his life." Gustav Hasford,
"The Short Timers", filmed as "Full Metal Jacket".

>What I'm getting at is that a group of experienced runners might graduate
>into a corporate strike force, or some other comparably elite military style
>team. It would be generally lower risk, especially considering their
>"God-like" power, higher job security, etc.

Which also offers potential.

Some of our runners, who had managed to avoid committing major outrages
within the UCAS, ended up recruited by the FBI as consultants. We kept
playing them, and it was entertaining, though very different and if
anything _more_ challenging: runners get judged on success or failure,
enforcers have to succeed without "violating Bureau procedures".

Doesn't suit everyone, fine, but as long as you keep the problems in
pace with the power it remains a challenging experience.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 46
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:10:44 +0000
In article <19980204184523.14326.qmail@*******.com>, Damon Harper
<nomad74@*******.COM> writes
> I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know
>this is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others-
>but, did these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?
> Jesus, I can't believe any character out there gets past the
>200-karma mark. If they don't have enough nuyen to for permenant luxury
>or high lifestyle, retire with what they got. The game can't possibily
>be any fun when you have the stats that'll geek Verjigorm.

Breadth rather than depth. Spread out. (Especially if your group
shrinks...) The merc learns to fly fast jets and acquires a rig. The
samurai learns to deck. The magician pauses from learning spells and
discovers how to use firearms.

And diversity. Rather than plough Karma into upping Firearms from 10 to
11, learn to play the guitar, or speak Cantonese (the better to watch
your John Woo movie collection in the original) or take a degree in
occult studies.

You're ploughing that money into a business venture? Better learn about
law, economics, marketing... Sure, you can shoot the pip out of the ace
of hearts at a kilometre, what's that going to do when you're up against
a hostile takeover?

Experienced, high-karma characters can be munchie monsters, or they can
be interesting to play.

> As a GM(DM's are for AD&D), I rarely let me PCs get past 100, and
>when they do- I do a "retirement run". I suggest most players do the
>same. Why? Because if you keep a character for too long, not only is
>the character achieved God-like status, but you start to become sloppy
>professionally and learn to rely on nothing but your god-like numbers.

False. In my experience, only mages run into this. Mundanes still find
that, no matter how excellent your Firearms skill, an ambush or a sniper
still kills you just as dead.

You might be more able to dish out hurt, but your ability to soak it up
doesn't rise much.

>Then, when some GM says "I want only 0 karma characters" you get your
>hoop kicked because you only had a firearms of 6 instead of 24 -assuming
>of course they have 0 karma characters in their stockpile.

Highest skill any of my characters ever attained was 10.

> Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
>karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
>the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
>only in the 2-digit range).

No, it isn't, you just have to think laterally :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 47
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:22:48 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 17:51:31 EST, robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> >You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
> >That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
> >all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.
>
>
> If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
> (it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).
>
(Hands Rob a Calculator) "That's 10 Million there guy..."
-K
Message no. 48
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:21:13 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 17:33:28 EST, shaman@*******.COM writes:

>
> I have been reading this thread and I've noticed that a number of people
> keep giving Karma levels like 200 points, 500 points, etc. and exclaiming
> in a horrified voice "Why haven't they retired yet...they should have more
> then enough money."
>
<Snipped a fairly long, calmly stated posting by Bruce...>

APPLAUSE!!!! WHISTLES!!!! ROARING FROM THE BIRD!!!

-K (smiley)
Message no. 49
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:29:59 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 18:46:06 EST, robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> 1.5 million, sitting in a bank, at, oh, 3% interest...
>
> That's 1,500,000 x 0.03 a year, or 45,000Y a year. Spin off a few hundred
K,
> buy your house, and live off the interest. Do it in a tax haven, and you'll
> see all of that money coming back.
>
> I repeat, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle.
>
Ooops, High Lifestyle, I thought you said Luxury Lifestyle...my mistake...
-K
Message no. 50
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 04:36:42 +0100
At 04-Feb-98 wrote Max Rible:


>I'm one of those consistency freaks who doesn't give Threat Ratings to
>NPCs. I give them Dice Pools... and Karma Pools. If I don't like how
>well I rolled against the PC's, I let the NPC decide whether or not to
>use *their* Karma Pool the same way I would as a PC. If there are PC's
>out there with 40 dice in their Karma Pools, there are going to be NPCs
>out there with even more...

Hey! You are like me :)
I do the same in my games, mostly I give the NPC`s their threat rating as
karma
pool and calculate their normal pools.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 51
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:42:16 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 20:05:58 EST, shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK
writes:

> Breadth rather than depth. Spread out. (Especially if your group
> shrinks...) The merc learns to fly fast jets and acquires a rig. The
> samurai learns to deck. The magician pauses from learning spells and
> discovers how to use firearms.

Oh wow, this sounds really familiar....most of the characters that we have had
have done this for more reasons that just "higher powered games". Players
showing up on a consistent basis became a big one. Especially if it was the
Decker. And now that Mr. Szeto has helped put the Rigger into his chair
(ejection, with walker modifications afterwards and thrust packs for the extra
get away ;), the party's discovered that a Rig 1 (or, we even have a Rig 0)
is a really smart investment.

> And diversity. Rather than plough Karma into upping Firearms from 10 to
> 11, learn to play the guitar, or speak Cantonese (the better to watch
> your John Woo movie collection in the original) or take a degree in
> occult studies.

I think the collection would be impressive, even without the language...

> You're ploughing that money into a business venture? Better learn about
> law, economics, marketing... Sure, you can shoot the pip out of the ace
> of hearts at a kilometre, what's that going to do when you're up against
> a hostile takeover?

Careful here guy, enough of the 'less understanding types' will simply say
"I'll do a run and shoot the jerk leading the takeover of course"...

> Experienced, high-karma characters can be munchie monsters, or they can
> be interesting to play.

I prefer interesting...

> > As a GM(DM's are for AD&D), I rarely let me PCs get past 100, and
> >when they do- I do a "retirement run". I suggest most players do the
> >same. Why? Because if you keep a character for too long, not only is
> >the character achieved God-like status, but you start to become sloppy
> >professionally and learn to rely on nothing but your god-like numbers.
>
> False. In my experience, only mages run into this. Mundanes still find
> that, no matter how excellent your Firearms skill, an ambush or a sniper
> still kills you just as dead.

I agree wiht Adam on this one. There is a strange rule out there...no matter
how big or powerful you are, no matter how good or invulnerable....there is
always something, bigger, badder, better, more powerful, more invulnerable
(Tick comes to mind ;), than yourself. If that isn't true anymore, then yes,
it may well be time to retire...if not, you haven't gone the distance yet...

> You might be more able to dish out hurt, but your ability to soak it up
> doesn't rise much.

Binder's 4-5 Body attribute will attest to that...

> >Then, when some GM says "I want only 0 karma characters" you get your
> >hoop kicked because you only had a firearms of 6 instead of 24 -assuming
> >of course they have 0 karma characters in their stockpile.
>
> Highest skill any of my characters ever attained was 10.

Can't say so for myself...(shrug)

> > Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
> >karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
> >the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
> >only in the 2-digit range).
>
> No, it isn't, you just have to think laterally :)

Adam, explain laterally in this instance, could you???

-K
Message no. 52
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:55:05 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 13:46:08 EST, nomad74@*******.COM writes:

> Tell this GM of your group he has two options: Retire them, or kill
> them- and never let them get that high again. For my oldest char,
> getting ready to retire herself, these two options may be one in the
> same. YOu see, she has a serious hate-on for MCT(she has 97 karma), and
> is going to do a big run against them- if she lives, she'll retire. If
> she dies, she'll "Take as many of those MCT slags with me as I possibly
> can".
>
Yep, this sounds like someone who has difficulty allowing a plan for the
future. The karma award amount is ultimately what the group in question is
comfortable with, but it's such a shame. The character hasn't found her
limits yet, and I can figure that out from here and I don't even know her.
She's lost herself in a current goal and barely understands the boredom she's
about to enter into, assuming she does survive. You could go ask a LOT of the
current, real world, retirees. They have to do something, especially after
they've done something else (work, housekeeping, parenting, gardening. blah
blah blah...on and on) or they just lose their will to live.

Yep, well thought out character...come chat later on if she lives, I would
really like to hear how it effects her afterwards...truly, no evil/nasty
intent there. I would like to see it...

-K
Message no. 53
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 04:57:14 +0100
At 04-Feb-98 wrote Damon Harper:



> I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know
>this is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others-
>but, did these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?

You know that we don`t agree so any discussion about it is from my POV
senseless.


--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 54
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:29:23 -0700
On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, J. Keith Henry wrote:

> > No, it isn't, you just have to think laterally :)
>
> Adam, explain laterally in this instance, could you???

Give them something that they cannot take on or confront directly without
getting themselves in a world of hurt. Sure, you can shoot the guy
leading the hostile takeover but that just angers the corp he is working
for and that corp turns around redoubles its efforts to take over and to
eliminate those `pesky' runners.

Among other things as well, like oh eliminating the runners' friends,
families, contacts till no one will deal with them if you are feeling
really nice. The point is no matter how good the runners are, there will
always be a challenge if the GM puts a little thinking into it.

Bruce aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.
Message no. 55
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:23:18 +1000
> >Only 100 karma?
>
> I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall upon
> deaf ears.

Vagabond, I know you've not been around here long, but you seem like a
reasonably intelligent sort of person, so I'd have thought you'd have
picked up on a tip for making list life easier - *Never assume everyone
else plays the same sorts of games you do.*

'Nuff said.

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 56
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:27:32 +1000
> If you are comfortable with running powerful characters, then more
> power to you. Personally, for me, playing with characters that surprise
> the 100-150 mark get rather stale. If the player himself doesn't get

I'm sorry for you - either you have a poor GM, or you're not expanding
the character enough. A 150 karma character is just as much fun as a 0
karma character. Trust me. :)

> bored knowing that his character will win, then he will get bored
> knowing the GM will let him win. I've also seen several games, esp on

*ROFL* _Knowing_ the character will win? I don't think so, Tim! :) In
one local variant campaign we're playing, we're playing a semi-military,
semi-intel team. We started out with 150 karma, just for the heck of it,
and we still nearly died last game - and no, that did not involve
dracoforms or horrors or bugs... it involved a military reception with
us in full dress uniform (no armour and no guns *sigh*) being attacked
by a bunch of mad Egyptian anti-UCAS terrorists. Lots of 11S sucks when
you have no armour and no cover.

Trust me, I'm still whinging about it! "Join the army, they said..."

> IRC- but in RL as well, were the GM killed off a "high-karma" character,
> but the player was so attached to the character(a complex-and that's
> what it is- that is usually the sole reason players let the characters
> get so high-powered) that they tried to bring that same dead character
> back for another game- "Hey, didn't I kill him off *last* week?".

That's a problem with the player, not the level of karma the character
has. Don't confuse the two.

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 57
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:51:20 +0000
Damon Harper once wrote,

> I should've tacked this on to my "Professionalism" thread. I know
>this is going to piss of some, and sound like a novel idea to others-
>but, did these 400+ karma character EVER THINK about *RETIREMENT*?

Think about it... 400 Karma, seems like a ton, right? Way too much for
anyone, right? At 400 karma, you're STARTING to become well known on the
streets, and you get your first 10-12 skill ratings (if you play with
diversity, not pump everything into firearms, not "I can hit a bullseye with 40 mph
crosswinds at 400 yards with a heavy pistol/Great, but could you fix my
radio?/Whut?"-type of shit). My toughest character just passed
250...and he ain't nearly strong enough to warrant "Legend" status
(although his actions on TK gave him a "rep"). At 400, people start to
fear you, and you start meeting those "big-shots". Why quit when you just
hit the big-time?

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Killarmy - "Silent Weapons for Quiet
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"Life is a blur"
Message no. 58
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:52:00 -0600
Lady Jestyr wrote:
> Vagabond, I know you've not been around here long, but you seem like a
> reasonably intelligent sort of person, so I'd have thought you'd have
> picked up on a tip for making list life easier - *Never assume everyone
> else plays the same sorts of games you do.*

They don't! How Dare they! Well, by goodness then they are obviously
horrible nasty uneducated people that simply don't understand how to
play Shadowrun. I will teach them the folly of there ways! I will
berate them with nasty horrible posts... and .. and.. oh, wait a minute
- my name isn't Ivy.. ok, nevermind.

Seriously though, Lady J has made a very valid point with all of
this. I've played a lot of different power levels, and I've enjoyed
them all. When it comes to SR, I prefer a lower power game than many
others that I've spoken with. In fact some of the players I've heard
about are hard to believe from what I consider to be the ideal for my
own campaign. But there are those that prefer a much higher power
level. Basically the point is if you play SR and your gaming group and
your GM are having fun, then your doing it right.

One other point I'd like to make, as long as I'm up on my soapbox and
no one has as of yet begun to shower me with over-rippened fruit. A lot
of times in the list you will see posts that have nothing to do with SR,
and are quite frankly just silly and pointless. Every time you respond
to one of these and to tell the author that it is silly and pointless,
you propogate the thread. I know that it takes a great deal of self
restraint not to tell someone he is making an idiot of himself, but if
you ignore them they will get bored and run off to download x-rated
Gif's and what not soon enough. Then we can all talk about them behind
there back, which is much more rewarding.. hehehe.

BTW, can anyone direct me to the area located beneath Gurth's stairs?
I've never been there before but it might not be a bad idea.. hehehe.

Digger

Digger
Message no. 59
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:54:38 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>

>streets, and you get your first 10-12 skill ratings (if you play with


Okay, I've heard a lot of gripes about skill ratings in the double digits in
this thread, remember no matter how much karma you have you still have to
spend TIME to raise skills. I mean doing your work (decking, fighting,
whatever) might allow you to shave al little time off but raising a base
skill to 12 that's what 24 karma so that's what 168 days (1344 hrs.) assume
this is Firearms, how many "hours" of practice can you get on the average
run 8, 16, what? Hell, I'll be really generous and say this is a decker
raising computer and he has written a LOT of programs (equivalent of 68 - 8
hr. days) so we are down to 800 hrs of practice that you can't run,heal, or
do ANY funking thing else. That's fucking 3 1/2 months! Not a lot of runners
(or anyone for that matter) will have a skill of 10.

I'm not really griping here, though it sounds like it even to me right now.
I'm just mentioning that if you don't like skills that high IYC follow the
rules explicitly. If you like it, want it, whatever... Let the rules slip
whatever just allow it.

As with everything I say, YMMV and adjust as you see fit.


Da Twinkie Daddy ( gilmeth@*********.com )
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
-----
The American Dream does not come to those who fall asleep.
-----
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ICQ UIN: 514896
Message no. 60
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:12:40 +0100
>> If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
>> (it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).
>>
>(Hands Rob a Calculator) "That's 10 Million there guy..."

10,000 * 100 = 1,000,000...
You know, you only have to add the zeros... :)
Don't take any offense, I think you only took high lifestyle (10,000) for
luxury (100,000). :)


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 61
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:23:15 +0100
Robert Cozens said on 6:37/ 4 Feb 98...

> Hi Rob here I've watching this list for about a week, but this is my first
> post.

Welcome! Too bad Dvixen pulled the plug on the Bull-bot, else you might
get an official welcome...

> its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of points
> of re-roll (Good I think) Karma.

Karma Pool is what allows chars to reroll tests.

> In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
> early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.
>
> In the 2nd this saving is enforced by the rule so starting again my
> character could have 40+ Good Karma points.

True, except if you use the "clarification" in the Companion, where with
400 Karma in total, you'd have a Karma Pool of 36.

> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.

Make the encounter tougher and longer. That way they'll spend more Karma
Pool on rolling a single test: every time you re-roll, the cost goes up by
1, the first reroll costs 1 point, the second 2 points, the third 3, and
so on. I spent 6 Karma Pool this way to shoot a helicopter out of the air
recently, as I needed three re-rolls to get a single success.

Making the encounter longer means the Pool won't refresh as often, so
it'll get empty eventually. It doesn't even need to be a single encounter:
take for example PCs breaking into a corp compound, stealing an item,
running away from security in a hail of bullets, then running into a gang
that wants them to pay toll, resulting in another shoot-out, then security
catches up with them again and there's a big car chase and ...

As long as the characters don't have the time to catch their breaths, the
Karma Pool won't refresh, so keeping things moving is a way to challenge
high-Karma characters.

> I read the piece by Loki (from the Netrunner site, I think) but would like
> other peoples views.

I believe Loki's site is called Poisoned Elves.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Do the Evolution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 62
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:23:18 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 22:22/ 4 Feb 98...

> > If I remember correctly, 1 million will buy a _permanent_ high lifestyle
> > (it's lifestyle costs x 100, I think).
> >
> (Hands Rob a Calculator) "That's 10 Million there guy..."

*Gurth takes Keith's calculator and replaces the batteries with full ones*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Do the Evolution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 63
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:23:16 +0100
Panther` said on 19:20/ 3 Feb 98...

> You'd retire them at only 1 mil? Any idea how fast they'll go broke?
> That much money doesn't last that long TODAY, much less in 2058 after
> all the inflation that's likely to have happened between now and then.

A million nuyen buys you about the same as a million US dollars today (if
you disregard some of the strange/high prices SRII charges for some items,
like mobile phones). I say this because FASA has stated in the Denver
GM sourcebook that a nuyen equals about one 1994 US dollar.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Do the Evolution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 64
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:16:50 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 06:39:27 EST, you write:

> I harly every used my 1st ed. store karma as once used it was gone. The 2nd
> ed. allowsw DM's to refresh these pools and it suggests refreshing at the
> start of each combat.
>
> My question is then how do you stop players whos characters can get up to
> 40 re-rolls (best case) per combat abusing your neatly planned encounter.
>
> Rob.

Okay, there are three options to this ...

1. Limit the size of the reroll pool to some number ... once they go over
that amount any karma that would have been reroll would go to skill karma.

2. Make the opposition such that they may have to consider burning karma for
additional successes.

3. Make rerolls pools refresh at the beginning of a new adventure, and not
after every encounter .. makes karma spending much more carefully on the part
of the players.

Mike
Message no. 65
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:33:31 EST
In a message dated 98-02-04 22:44:23 EST, you write:

> > > Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
> > >karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
> > >the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
> > >only in the 2-digit range).
> >
> > No, it isn't, you just have to think laterally :)
>
> Adam, explain laterally in this instance, could you???
>
> -K

It is actually easy to run a game with pc's that are over 400+ ... play loose
with the rules and make the enemies comparable to the pcs ... and for those
pcs that unfortunately are basically beyond the rules (and we did have one in
the home game here) we (Keith and I) made up or tossed the system right out of
the window ... though I did like Mana Bolting the pc to death by two grade 3
Winternight Shamans (although they did have the BC in their favor at the time)
...

Mike
Message no. 66
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:41:13 -0700
Mike Bobroff wrote:
/
/ K wrote:
/
/ > > > Now, I'm sure there are GM's(God pity them) that actually can run 400+
/ > > >karma campaigns, but it is tough on the GM, mega easy(read: boring) for
/ > > >the PC, and just annoying for any other player(esp if they are of karma
/ > > >only in the 2-digit range).
/ > >
/ > > No, it isn't, you just have to think laterally :)
/ >
/ > Adam, explain laterally in this instance, could you???
/
/ It is actually easy to run a game with pc's that are over 400+ ... play loose
/ with the rules and make the enemies comparable to the pcs

Here's how my games run.

When the characters are newbies almost all of the confrontations they have
with NPCs are simple direct. For example, grab the girl in NY City and get
her to Seattle. The girl works for a small business that can only hire
thugs to directly confront the PCs.

As they become more experienced and gain a reputation they start
getting hired for complex runs and indirect confrontations. The
runners are hired to pick up a defecting Aztechnology VP and keep him
alive him until he can testify in front of a grand jury (the PC's 40
point karma pool aint worth jack if the VP takes a round between the
eyes). Aztechnology has the resources to track the runners down if
they stay in one spot for more than a few days. AZ can also alter
law enforcement records and put a warrent out for the PCs arrest on a
bogus charge. AZ has also put a bounty on the PCs heads through the
underground community. Etc... During the adventure the PCs are
arrested by the police (if they resist arrest and kill a cop they are
up shit creek). Just about the time they convince the police that
the charges are false some bounty hunters assault the police station
(and the bounty hunters are smart: firing from cover, area effect
weapons, yadda yadda yadda). During the run they are helped by
mysterious benefactors (other megacorps). They also find themselves
dealing with other of the VPs enemies. The VP himself causes
problems when he gets scared and takes off. The PCs must race
against AZ to find the VP first. The PCs find out at some point that
the VP ran a department that conducted illegal experiments on live
subjects. After they deliver him to the grand jury (another fun
filled encounter as the insiders bribed by AZ try to kill the VP) and
he testifies he goes off with the federal government. Somehow the
PCs find out while the VP is still in sight that the VP will be
conduting the same experiments for the government. What to do, what
to do? <EGMG>

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 67
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:53:24 -0700
Damon Harper wrote:
/
/ >I disagree. Currently the PCs in my game average 350 karma. Running
/ >games isn't at all hard. I present them with a solid in depth story,
/ >NPCs with character, obstacles that require their skills (maglocks,
/ >watcher spirits, etc) and a couple combats to add spice.
/ >
/ >The key to running a game for experience characters is creating a good
/ >story with plenty of dynamics for them to weave through.
/
/ If you are comfortable with running powerful characters, then more
/ power to you. Personally, for me, playing with characters that surprise
/ the 100-150 mark get rather stale. If the player himself doesn't get
/ bored knowing that his character will win, then he will get bored
/ knowing the GM will let him win.

If your group is playing to *win* than that's the problem. You
should be playing to have fun. And how powerful a character is
doesn't determine whether or not he's fun to play, that's up the the
Player and GM.

All IMHO of course :)

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Message no. 68
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:14:31 +0100
>When the characters are newbies almost all of the confrontations they have
>with NPCs are simple direct. For example, grab the girl in NY City and get
>her to Seattle. The girl works for a small business that can only hire
>thugs to directly confront the PCs.
>
>As they become more experienced and gain a reputation they start
>getting hired for complex runs and indirect confrontations. The
>runners are hired to pick up a defecting Aztechnology VP and keep him
>alive him until he can testify in front of a grand jury (the PC's 40
>point karma pool aint worth jack if the VP takes a round between the
>eyes). Aztechnology has the resources to track the runners down if
>they stay in one spot for more than a few days. AZ can also alter
>law enforcement records and put a warrent out for the PCs arrest on a
>bogus charge. AZ has also put a bounty on the PCs heads through the
>underground community. Etc... During the adventure the PCs are
>arrested by the police (if they resist arrest and kill a cop they are
>up shit creek). Just about the time they convince the police that
>the charges are false some bounty hunters assault the police station
>(and the bounty hunters are smart: firing from cover, area effect
>weapons, yadda yadda yadda). During the run they are helped by
>mysterious benefactors (other megacorps). They also find themselves
>dealing with other of the VPs enemies. The VP himself causes
>problems when he gets scared and takes off. The PCs must race
>against AZ to find the VP first. The PCs find out at some point that
>the VP ran a department that conducted illegal experiments on live
>subjects. After they deliver him to the grand jury (another fun
>filled encounter as the insiders bribed by AZ try to kill the VP) and
>he testifies he goes off with the federal government. Somehow the
>PCs find out while the VP is still in sight that the VP will be
>conduting the same experiments for the government. What to do, what
>to do? <EGMG>

Yep. The next step is :
The corp A asks the leader of the running team that it wants to make an
offense on a particular corp B in a particular domain of activity (for
exemple soup products). The runners' job is to find infos, find a plan to
attack the corp (here, attack doesn't mean agressive with spells and/or
firearms) and react to what they didn't expected.
I would say it's the final step before beeing used as Mr Johnson (my
players once used to act as Mr Johnson on 2 runs while they did themselves
the third... Arg! They were worse than the average Mr Johnson! :).


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 69
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:13:12 -0700
Another GM tactic for high karma PCs is to increase the level of
roleplaying.

In a prior post I described a "protect the NPC" adventure. Toss his
girlfriend her mother into the mix. The VP calls his girlfriend and
tells her were he is, she shows up and won't leave (if she's forced
to leave the VP will change his mind about testifying). That alone
should make for a couple of hours of roleplaying. At some point
girlfriend calls Mom and Mom tells her neighbors (she's a gossip
after all) and AZ is on the PC's trail again. Later on in the
adventure girlfriend calls Mom again (just to tell her she's all
right) to find AZ threatening to kill Mom if girlfriend doesn't tell
AZ where the VP is. More running on the PC's part. When the PCs
find out girlfriend's Mom is being held hostage they may try to
rescue her (they are the good guys after all :). After saving Mom
you've got another roleplaying encounter as Mom harangues the PCs for
nearly getting her and her daughter killed and Mom tells girlfriend
she should dump VP and girlfriend screams at Mom and VP puts in his
two cents and all hell breaks loose when Mom whips out the frying
pan. And, I almost forgot, Mom's NRA redneck neighbor (who she's
having a casual affair with) comes knocking on the door, shotgun in
hand.

In a situation like this all the KP in the world isn't going to help
the PCs :)

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 70
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:02:44 +0000
David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> once wrote...
(snip)

>(the PC's 40 point karma pool aint worth jack if the VP takes a round between
>the eyes).

Wait, wait, wait... you mean to tell me that 400 Karma automatically
equals 40 KP? Have you guys heard of the burning KP? 1 permanent KP
burned for 1 extra, life-saving success. Best way to keep them in check,
after all, is limiting their KP. And the best way to limit that is to
make 'em burn it for successes. In my campaign, players have around
180-250 Karma total... but with pools of 9-14 (14 is the highest pool
here). We burn it like crazy... You can't imagine how much successes it
takes to dodge a Sentry Minigun... (I burned 3 KPs in one shot that time,
and still ended up with a S wound..but alive).

Ack...a KP of 40...

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Fluke - "Risotto"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 71
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:39:37 -0500
----------
From: David Buehrer[SMTP:dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 9:41 AM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: All That Karma

<Huge Snippit>

After they deliver him to the grand jury (another fun
filled encounter as the insiders bribed by AZ try to kill the VP) and
he testifies he goes off with the federal government. Somehow the
PCs find out while the VP is still in sight that the VP will be
conduting the same experiments for the government. What to do, what
to do? <EGMG>

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

that was kinda cool. like reading a short story



-DEG.

************************************************************
If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a
fool about it.
***********************************************************
go visit Triple H

http://members.aol.com/HHackerH/intro.htm
************************************************************
Message no. 72
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:02:07 -0700
Frank Pelletier wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> once wrote...
/ (snip)
/
/ >(the PC's 40 point karma pool aint worth jack if the VP takes a round between
/ >the eyes).
/
[snip: burn that karma]
/
/ Ack...a KP of 40...

Sorry. That was just a number I picked to make the point :) that a
PC's karma pool only works for him. You (as the GM) can create
situations where the PC's karma pool has little relevance.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 73
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:05:25 -0700
Graves, Durand E. wrote:
/
[snip: adventure example]
/
/ that was kinda cool. like reading a short story

Gee, thanks :)

When you get right down to it an adventure is just another story in
the life of the PCs. When I create an adventure I feel like I'm
doing it right if it reads like a story.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 74
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:29:02 +0000
> >(the PC's 40 point karma pool aint worth jack if the VP takes a round between
> >the eyes).
>
> Wait, wait, wait... you mean to tell me that 400 Karma automatically
> equals 40 KP? Have you guys heard of the burning KP? 1 permanent KP
> burned for 1 extra, life-saving success. Best way to keep them in check,
> after all, is limiting their KP. And the best way to limit that is to

But, By-The-Book, you need to already acheive one success before you
are allowed to do this (Thus SR2 avoids the error made in
SR1....where you could "auto-success" your way to a Force 20,000 Fire
elemental with several services....and Live)

Anyway, so by-the-book you either tend to acheive successes (in which
case the odds usually favor re-rolls) or none (in which case you
can't burn)

I allow my players to burn for successes anyway, and I haven't had
(much) abuse of it yet (one player learned the true name of a major
villain Free spirit and enslaved him despite having only a conjuring
skill of 3 by burning two karma pool. I debated, but allowed since
he had been fighting this NPC for a long time, and had only 5 Karma
pool before this despite having 150 Karma)

I also allow 1 reroll per Karma pool, without increasing the price
for successive rolls. (This is because we originally mis-read the
rule, and when we discovered the error, the group unanimously voted
to use it the way we had been).

I also tend to be stingy with Karma. A REALLY great run can net them
7 each, but usually it's 3-5. I'm getting more generous now, so I'll
have to take another look.

Oh, and one last thing...I increase the "cost" of a Karma Pool. They
get one at: 10,20,30,40,50,70,90,110,140,170,210,250, etc. No one in
the last three years or so has broken 170. Only one player broke 150
in that time, and only one other broke 100. every one else tends to
get new characters by death or boredom around 30-50.

-=SwiftOne=-

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 75
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:21:02 +0100
At 10:05 05/02/1998 -0700, you wrote:
<<<SNIPPETYSNIP!>>


>When you get right down to it an adventure is just another story in
>the life of the PCs. When I create an adventure I feel like I'm
>doing it right if it reads like a story.
***I _do_ hope it's an interactive story..;) If there's one thing I like
about GM'ing it's the players doing things that I _never_ ever expected...
like when the player playing a female Physad striked up a 'relationship'
with the man they were supposed to stay close with... That was fun... ;)

Anyways, I'm getting beside the point.. what I mean is, what about your
story, when the players do something _completely_ unexpected...

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male
Message no. 76
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:21:04 +0000
On 4 Feb 98 at 15:38, Spike wrote:

> And verily, did Ashlocke hastily scribble thusly...
> |> its a question, how do you DM's handle characters with oooooodles of
> |> points of re-roll (Good I think) Karma. The other stuff is easy, they
> |> players just spent the points for their characters.
> |>
> |> In 1st Ed. I play a character that ammased 'bout 400+ Karma and for an
> |> early stage he save 'bout 20 points just in case his ass was on fire.
> |
> | Stop using 1st Ed rules
>
> No. Don't. If you prefer 1st Ed, like I do, continue playing it.

I guess there's no doubt about that. Play what you like, as always.

> The point is, in 1st Ed, if you spent Karma on anything, it was gone,
> *poof*.
>
> Reroll? Fine that'll be one Karma for the first, two for the second, 3 for
> the third, etc....
> That Karma DOES NOT regenerate. There's no such thing as a Karma pool in 1st
> Ed.

Makes the game a bit more dangerous, right?

> All Karma is equal.

....but some is more equal....;)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 77
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:32:48 -0700
J. G. du Chatinier wrote:
/
/ >When you get right down to it an adventure is just another story in
/ >the life of the PCs. When I create an adventure I feel like I'm
/ >doing it right if it reads like a story.
/
/ I _do_ hope it's an interactive story..;) If there's one thing I like
/ about GM'ing it's the players doing things that I _never_ ever expected...
/ like when the player playing a female Physad striked up a 'relationship'
/ with the man they were supposed to stay close with... That was fun... ;)
/
/ Anyways, I'm getting beside the point.. what I mean is, what about your
/ story, when the players do something _completely_ unexpected...

Yep, the players take an active role and can suprise the GM :)

I don't believe in controling the PCs or ramroding *my* adventure
down their throats. If they take a tangent, I follow them. In fact,
the funnest adventures for me to run are the loose ones where the PCs
can take almost any direction.

One of the keys to running loose, IMHO, is knowing the goals and
motivations of your NPCs so you can realistically figure out how
they'll react when the PCs go off on a tangent. Another key is not
planning on the PCs taking a specific course of action.

I like to create adventures with timelines and flowcharts and
locations. Timelines are for those events that are going to happen
no matter what (Rocker Boy hits the stage at 7:00 on Friday night).
Flow charts are for events that are triggered by the PCs (when the VP
finds out the PCs are on to him he'll send some thugs to kill them.
If this fails he'll take care of the PCs personally). Locations are
the locations of any clues, people, and items the PCs can use to
complete the run and any requirements (if any) to access them. I
also keep an open mind that the PCs might come up with something that
I haven't thought of. If they figure out a plausible way to complete
the run then I let them. They don't have to do it my way.

If you try to create linear adventures (the PCs must go from point A
to point B to point C) the players feel like their being led by the
noses, and there isn't much room for error.

Now, as to creating stories for adventures, my adventures aren't
stories in the pure sense. They're more like a series of story
boards for events that will happen (the primary timeline) and events
that may or may not happen (causal events on the flowchart). Have
you ever read a write your own adventure book? That's how I like to
write adventures. If A *then* B.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 78
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:08:42 -0800
Gurth wrote:
>
> A million nuyen buys you about the same as a million US dollars today (if
> you disregard some of the strange/high prices SRII charges for some items,
> like mobile phones). I say this because FASA has stated in the Denver
> GM sourcebook that a nuyen equals about one 1994 US dollar.

Still wouldn't last too long, unless the character had some kind of
investment skill

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
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Message no. 79
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:46:40 -0500
On Thu, Feb 05, 1998 at 12:32:48PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> J. G. du Chatinier wrote:
> /
<SNIP>
>
> I like to create adventures with timelines and flowcharts and
> locations. Timelines are for those events that are going to happen
> no matter what (Rocker Boy hits the stage at 7:00 on Friday night).
> Flow charts are for events that are triggered by the PCs (when the VP
> finds out the PCs are on to him he'll send some thugs to kill them.
> If this fails he'll take care of the PCs personally). Locations are
> the locations of any clues, people, and items the PCs can use to
> complete the run and any requirements (if any) to access them. I
> also keep an open mind that the PCs might come up with something that
> I haven't thought of. If they figure out a plausible way to complete
> the run then I let them. They don't have to do it my way.
>
> If you try to create linear adventures (the PCs must go from point A
> to point B to point C) the players feel like their being led by the
> noses, and there isn't much room for error.
>
> Now, as to creating stories for adventures, my adventures aren't
> stories in the pure sense. They're more like a series of story
> boards for events that will happen (the primary timeline) and events
> that may or may not happen (causal events on the flowchart). Have
> you ever read a write your own adventure book? That's how I like to
> write adventures. If A *then* B.
>
I'll agree on this one. My players (or at least my old group) always
thought of something I didn't, no matter how hard I tried to plan.
So I break the story into main scenes, and possible random encounters.
How they get there is entirely up to them. I've had some adventures
that should have been short, that the players got caught up in
their own "adventure" (Bar scene, garage, etc), and took several
sessions to complete. But it was closer to real life and quite
a bit of fun. The key is both planning and being able to adjust
on the fly. (I try and keep a list of useful NPC's, Contacts, etc
as well handy, to populate places they might wander into). And
if you create a new bar, person etc on the fly, make notes!
I've had more then one player, decide several sessions later,
"hey they had useful info", and I couldn't remember anything about
the encounter. :) You'd be suprised who becomes permanent additions
to campaigns. I know I always am.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 80
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:11:08 PST
>Damon Harper wrote:
>>
>> >Only 100 karma?
>>
>> I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall
upon
>> deaf ears.
>
>I'm sorry if I get a little defensive here, but it seems you missed my
>point. My char does NOT run for money, she doesn't need to.

And you apparantly are missing my point. I never mentioned money.
When your character has more karma than God, it's time to retire. The
end. Period. Thanks for calling.
And I do apologize if my last response sounded curt- it appears we
are just getting crossed datastreams.


If it was
>money, she could just put all her time and energy into dancing. And I
>don't her play to make her 'superhuman' or whatever you're trying to
>say. She runs to find out how her mom died, because from what little
>she knows, she suspects her mom was a decker. Not that she wants
>revenge, she just wants to know the truth.

Well, I can't retort a proper arguement without knowing how much
karma your character that you speak of has. I'm going to assume that's
it's over 100. If it's over 100 by a small margin, then ignore what I
say here. I speak about those characters who have multitudes of karma
by hundred.
Now, if I were your GM, I would have had this personal quest settled
after you reached the 100 karma mark and encourage you to retire. It's
almost like the child/parent relationship. I can't blame you for
something your GM encourages, nor can I change it. If your GM has no
problem running a 500-karma campaign and still keep it intresting for
all those involved, then great- have fun.

> I don't care about karma or
>power or any of that. I just love the theater, and by that token, RP
as
>well.

Ummm... that's not really a valid arguement since you can always make
up new(and potentally better) characters.

>
>I don't want to start a flame war, I just feel you were attacking my
>response with your statement. And for a lot of characters, at 100
>karma, if RP properly, they're just starting to get good, especially if
>they have magic (physads included).

I'm not attacking anyone, so please don't feel I am. As for physads,
I agree. I could be talked into letting them go past the 150 mark, but
I wouldn't let any character get up to 5,7, or 9 HUNDRED karma... that's
just too much, IMO of course.

[snip trivial sig :) j/k ]

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 81
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:08:56 PST
>In a message dated 98-02-04 13:46:08 EST, nomad74@*******.COM writes:
>
>> Tell this GM of your group he has two options: Retire them, or
kill
>> them- and never let them get that high again. For my oldest char,
>> getting ready to retire herself, these two options may be one in the
>> same. YOu see, she has a serious hate-on for MCT(she has 97 karma),
and
>> is going to do a big run against them- if she lives, she'll retire.
If
>> she dies, she'll "Take as many of those MCT slags with me as I
possibly
>> can".
>>
>Yep, this sounds like someone who has difficulty allowing a plan for
the
>future.

As far as this character goes- you have no idea. :)

The karma award amount is ultimately what the group in question is
>comfortable with, but it's such a shame. The character hasn't found
her
>limits yet, and I can figure that out from here and I don't even know
her.
>She's lost herself in a current goal and barely understands the boredom
she's
>about to enter into, assuming she does survive. You could go ask a LOT
of the
>current, real world, retirees. They have to do something, especially
after
>they've done something else (work, housekeeping, parenting, gardening.
blah
>blah blah...on and on) or they just lose their will to live.

Yep. You can see the jest of this particular character. Like most
of my characters, her life is a tragic one. To make a long story
short- MCT is responsible for her father's death. She almost has lost
the will to live. Her last run, will be a suicide run.

>
>Yep, well thought out character...come chat later on if she lives, I
would
>really like to hear how it effects her afterwards...truly, no
evil/nasty
>intent there. I would like to see it...

I sense sarcasm, but I'll let you know. To be honest- I don't expect
her to make it, and she doesn't expect to make it.



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


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Message no. 82
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:11:30 PST
>> >Only 100 karma?
>>
>> I'm not going to respond further. Ones who ask this, my words fall
upon
>> deaf ears.
>
>Vagabond, I know you've not been around here long, but you seem like a
>reasonably intelligent sort of person, so I'd have thought you'd have
>picked up on a tip for making list life easier - *Never assume everyone
>else plays the same sorts of games you do.*

True enough. The reasonably intelligent part is debatable :)
Apologies abound.



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


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Message no. 83
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:14:39 -0800
> > A million nuyen buys you about the same as a million US dollars today (if
> > you disregard some of the strange/high prices SRII charges for some items,
> > like mobile phones). I say this because FASA has stated in the Denver
> > GM sourcebook that a nuyen equals about one 1994 US dollar.

> Still wouldn't last too long, unless the character had some kind of
> investment skill

Actually, a million bucks can last quite a while. Put it someplace that
earns just enough interest to cover the rise of inflation, and *bing*.

More importantly, you can be pretty dumb about investing (ie, sink it
into the first mutual fund you turn to in the newspaper) without *too*
much risk. You *will* be offered the advice to diversify into various
other funds (at a small handling charge), but your money's pretty safe.

Then again, you could also go on a spending spree and blow it all on..
oh, I dunno, SRTCG cards. :) (Not quite a million bucks.. yet.)
Keeping money takes willpower (or Willpower) and a fraction of common
sense. But it's not *that* difficult.

Then again, there are always stock market crashes, especially ironic if
they're caused by the shadowrun you just got paid the mil for..


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 84
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:45:34 EST
In a message dated 98-02-05 11:27:21 EST, jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA writes:

>
> Ack...a KP of 40...
>
Absolutely, 100%, NO COMMENT!!!!!
-K
Message no. 85
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:10:15 +0000
On 4 Feb 98 at 19:07, Barbie wrote:

> At 04-Feb-98 wrote Justin Pinnow:
>
> >I disagree. To me, if they are that knowledgeble (lots of skills) and have
> >that much gear, etc., why the heck are they still risking their lives for
> >their work when they can sell that gear and market their services for less
> >deadly jobs? Be realistic. If a player ever saved up over a million NY, I
> >would ask him to retire. Why? Well, why would I risk my life when I had
> >saved up enough money to buy a fake SIN and retire on? Common sense at
> >work.
>
> And I disagree with you here Justin, one million isn`t much
> and basing a retire point on the cash a char has is IMHO silly.
> Setting any retirement point from the GM out is silly IMHO, let the players
> play their chars as long as they like, it will come the day when they
> want to retire this char from alone.

Well, if the player says "I keep on playing my PC, 'cause it's so great.",
I would first hit the player and then burn the sheet. If the CHARACTER
would continue running until he/she dies, fine with me. Keeping IC is mondo
important in my game. E.g. right now one of my players has this
ex-chippie-nurse and she took quite a beating the last few month. So,
although we all like the char, he takes her out of the game. She will try
to get a job and make her life as normal as possible. If he insisted on
playing her, I would have allowed it for some time, until it really gets to
nasty for her to bear it. People don't like being shot at, blown up and
used as organ-stores.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 86
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:10:16 +0000
On 4 Feb 98 at 16:18, Mike Loseke wrote:

> > If you are comfortable with running powerful characters, then more
> > power to you. Personally, for me, playing with characters that surprise
> > the 100-150 mark get rather stale. If the player himself doesn't get
> > bored knowing that his character will win, then he will get bored
> > knowing the GM will let him win. I've also seen several games, esp on
> > IRC- but in RL as well, were the GM killed off a "high-karma"
character,
> > but the player was so attached to the character(a complex-and that's
> > what it is- that is usually the sole reason players let the characters
> > get so high-powered) that they tried to bring that same dead character
> > back for another game- "Hey, didn't I kill him off *last* week?".
>
> Just because a character has 350+ karma, or even over 100 karma,
> doesn't mean that they're suddenly invulnerable or boring. If this is
> the case then they should probably be looking for a new GM, because he
> is probably not offerring enough of a challenge for the character.

Whoops. Personally I run a more realistic campaign and someone in the
proximity of Bull, Barbie or Binder (call 'em the terrible Bs! ;)) simply
doesn't fit that game (c'mon, someone who created his own metaplanes isn't
actually realistic. But then, It's a matter if style). There are ways to
keep even a 1000 karma character at a bearable level (one is forcing the
player to burn a point of KP from time to time), but not within the basic
rules (-> no skill maximum). If I, as a GM don't want to make the whole
world full of initiates and cyberzombies, am I incompotent? See it this
way: Just because the PCs get better, doesn't mean the rest of the world
starts an arms-race (thinking that was true is kinda egocentric, isn' it?).
Throwing around draco-forms, toxics, horrors, bugs and small armies keeps
everyone busy, but that would be hack&slay, not SR (and the no-fights
version is pretty weak too. SR needs combat. Ever seen freindly
cyberpunk??(



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 87
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:30:41 -0700
Zixx wrote:
/
/ Well, if the player says "I keep on playing my PC, 'cause it's so great.",
/ I would first hit the player and then burn the sheet. If the CHARACTER
/ would continue running until he/she dies, fine with me. Keeping IC is mondo
/ important in my game. E.g. right now one of my players has this
/ ex-chippie-nurse and she took quite a beating the last few month. So,
/ although we all like the char, he takes her out of the game. She will try
/ to get a job and make her life as normal as possible. If he insisted on
/ playing her, I would have allowed it for some time, until it really gets to
/ nasty for her to bear it. People don't like being shot at, blown up and
/ used as organ-stores.

*Most* people don't like being shot at. However, there are people
that get a rush from it, a kind of adrenalin high. Your basic Merc
usually has this reaction to combat. Also, from what I've heard,
people exposed to extended combat operations (war) can start to feel
this way and have a hard time readjusting to normal society
afterwards because it's so "quiet".

If the character is not one of these people then I would expect the
player to RP her as you described. But if the character loves the
thrill of combat I wouldn't enforce my views on the player. Keeping
IC goes both ways. And there's an exception to every rule.

:)

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 88
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:46:58 -0500
On Fri, Feb 06, 1998 at 12:30:41PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Zixx wrote:
> /
> / Well, if the player says "I keep on playing my PC, 'cause it's so
great.",
> / I would first hit the player and then burn the sheet. If the CHARACTER
> / would continue running until he/she dies, fine with me. Keeping IC is mondo
> / important in my game. E.g. right now one of my players has this
> / ex-chippie-nurse and she took quite a beating the last few month. So,
> / although we all like the char, he takes her out of the game. She will try
> / to get a job and make her life as normal as possible. If he insisted on
> / playing her, I would have allowed it for some time, until it really gets to
> / nasty for her to bear it. People don't like being shot at, blown up and
> / used as organ-stores.
>
> *Most* people don't like being shot at. However, there are people
> that get a rush from it, a kind of adrenalin high. Your basic Merc
> usually has this reaction to combat. Also, from what I've heard,
> people exposed to extended combat operations (war) can start to feel
> this way and have a hard time readjusting to normal society
> afterwards because it's so "quiet".
>
> If the character is not one of these people then I would expect the
> player to RP her as you described. But if the character loves the
> thrill of combat I wouldn't enforce my views on the player. Keeping
> IC goes both ways. And there's an exception to every rule.
>
Very true. If you live your life, every day on edge. What are you
going to do when you stop? Take up gardnening? Keep house?
The adrenalin, and mental state takes its toal. Notice how many
older CEO's we have, and how many seem to exist in 2059. (and
a comment and Richard Villiars of Fuchi in ShadowFiles backs this up).
If you make plans everyday that affect millions of people, always
having to make the choice, what would you do if you didn't have that
sorta pressure.
This isn't true for everyone, but you tend to see it alot of "high
pressure" professions. Ex: My grandfather, was a doctor for 40?
years? Even after he retired, he served on various boards, and voluntered
alot. Why? Because that is what he had done his entire life, and he
wasn't quite sure what to do if he wasn't doing it.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 89
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:37:24 -0700
Thus spake Zixx:
>
> On 4 Feb 98 at 16:18, Mike Loseke wrote:
>
> > > If you are comfortable with running powerful characters, then more
> > > power to you. Personally, for me, playing with characters that surprise
> > > the 100-150 mark get rather stale. If the player himself doesn't get
> > > bored knowing that his character will win, then he will get bored
> > > knowing the GM will let him win. I've also seen several games, esp on
> > > IRC- but in RL as well, were the GM killed off a "high-karma"
character,
> > > but the player was so attached to the character(a complex-and that's
> > > what it is- that is usually the sole reason players let the characters
> > > get so high-powered) that they tried to bring that same dead character
> > > back for another game- "Hey, didn't I kill him off *last* week?".
> >
> > Just because a character has 350+ karma, or even over 100 karma,
> > doesn't mean that they're suddenly invulnerable or boring. If this is
> > the case then they should probably be looking for a new GM, because he
> > is probably not offerring enough of a challenge for the character.
>
> Whoops. Personally I run a more realistic campaign and someone in the
> proximity of Bull, Barbie or Binder (call 'em the terrible Bs! ;)) simply
> doesn't fit that game (c'mon, someone who created his own metaplanes isn't
> actually realistic. But then, It's a matter if style). There are ways to

You mean like the creators of the game? Every GM has their own twist,
or at least should, on the world of SR. Adding metaplanes is no big
whoop. On the other hand, characters creating stuff like that is a little
much for me. Besides, I've always thought it humorous that someone
would call a game with magic and elves "realistic." I think the word
"manageable" would be a better description of a sane campaign.

> keep even a 1000 karma character at a bearable level (one is forcing the
> player to burn a point of KP from time to time), but not within the basic
> rules (-> no skill maximum). If I, as a GM don't want to make the whole
> world full of initiates and cyberzombies, am I incompotent? See it this
> way: Just because the PCs get better, doesn't mean the rest of the world
> starts an arms-race (thinking that was true is kinda egocentric, isn' it?).

On the same note, the rest of the world doesn't sit back and watch the
characters advance without advancing itself. This is a cinematic game.
There are always supposed to be bad guys capable of turning the PC's
into chitlins. Even Chow Yun Fat can get shot. If the PC's get to the
level where not even megacorps and governments can touch them, then I
think it's time to pull the plug on the campaign.

> Throwing around draco-forms, toxics, horrors, bugs and small armies keeps
> everyone busy, but that would be hack&slay, not SR (and the no-fights
> version is pretty weak too. SR needs combat. Ever seen freindly
> cyberpunk??(

Throwing bad guys at the PC's who have big stats isn't always a challenge
for characters. Throwing *smart* bad guys at them more often is. Take
the old AD&D example of the group of kobolds that had a leader capable
of setting up an ambush and killing the PC's: many players never looked
at kobolds the same way after experiencing that.

My whole point was that if the campaign was no longer a challenge for the
characters, then it is the responsibility of the GM to make it one. High
karma levels, and pools, should have no bearing on the challenge of the
game presented by the GM (whereas abuse of karma can).

> Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

Mike "that's my name" Loseke

--
| We all enter this world in the same way: naked;
Mike Loseke | screaming; soaked in blood. But if you live
mike@*******.com | your life right, that kind of thing doesn't
| have to stop there. -- Dana Gould
Message no. 90
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:18:42 -0700
> Throwing around draco-forms, toxics, horrors, bugs and small armies keeps
> everyone busy, but that would be hack&slay, not SR (and the no-fights
> version is pretty weak too. SR needs combat. Ever seen freindly
> cyberpunk??(

Each person plays the game differently, it is not up to us to define the
limits of another person's game. If they enjoy it so be it. If you don't
like it don't play in it... it is that simple.

It's interesting to note as Tobias said that gamers tend to think,
particularly those that GM, that as the power of their players' characters
rise ... the opposition needs to too.

It doesn't. Shadowrun is a lethal game and with the right amount of
planning, most characters "could" be eliminated by a 0 Karma character.
It's not easy but it is possible and that I find is one of the nice little
edges that keep most successful runners in my campaigns on their toes and
alive..realizing just how fragile their mortality can be. Especially if
you use damage overflow as an option.

Even Barbie, Binder and Bull can die and I think it might surprise some
just how easily that can be done WITHOUT invoking Horrors, Dracoforms, or
some other excessively powerful counterbalance.

Maybe I am unique in my view, that no matter your Karma level, you are not
a god and even a lowly street punk can take you down.

Bruce aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.
Message no. 91
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:35:53 +0000
On 6 Feb 98 at 12:30, David Buehrer wrote:

> Zixx wrote:
> /
> / Well, if the player says "I keep on playing my PC, 'cause it's so
great.",
> / I would first hit the player and then burn the sheet. If the CHARACTER
> / would continue running until he/she dies, fine with me. Keeping IC is mondo
> / important in my game. E.g. right now one of my players has this
> / ex-chippie-nurse and she took quite a beating the last few month. So,
> / although we all like the char, he takes her out of the game. She will try
> / to get a job and make her life as normal as possible. If he insisted on
> / playing her, I would have allowed it for some time, until it really gets to
> / nasty for her to bear it. People don't like being shot at, blown up and
> / used as organ-stores.
>
> *Most* people don't like being shot at. However, there are people
> that get a rush from it, a kind of adrenalin high. Your basic Merc
> usually has this reaction to combat. Also, from what I've heard,
> people exposed to extended combat operations (war) can start to feel
> this way and have a hard time readjusting to normal society
> afterwards because it's so "quiet".

Sure. When I play I usually write a char that has this attitude, but I see
it as a flaw. E.g. in the Aztlan PBeM Keith GMs, his char (Binder),
teleports Barbie, Charon and himself out of a bar. What Keith doesn't know
<epg> is that i did a willpower roll. I got one success, very close one,
actually. If the roll had failed, Charon would have emptied the whole clip
of his Glock into the mage. Not that it would have been a problem to Binder
(I'm sure he's got as much magical security as Harley).
The point is that this problem with normal society is not something that
will make you very old. One day, the char loses control and someone's there
who ends his career permanently.
Live fast, die young. That counts double for runners.
(Especially for newbies....)

> If the character is not one of these people then I would expect the
> player to RP her as you described. But if the character loves the
> thrill of combat I wouldn't enforce my views on the player. Keeping
> IC goes both ways. And there's an exception to every rule.

Someone with this "ignorance of danger"-attitude, shouldn't survive that
long, should he? Oh well, different styles...:)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 92
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:46:37 EST
In a message dated 98-02-06 16:11:58 EST, shaman@*******.COM writes:

> Even Barbie, Binder and Bull can die and I think it might surprise some
> just how easily that can be done WITHOUT invoking Horrors, Dracoforms, or
> some other excessively powerful counterbalance.

Hey NOW!!! That's cutting it close there 'Rendar' ... and Binder can deal
well with all of the above listed...it's the normal folks that truly 'scare'
him. ;)

> Maybe I am unique in my view, that no matter your Karma level, you are not
> a god and even a lowly street punk can take you down.

IN theory, I have to agree with Bruce on this one. The incident that comes to
mind was that damn sniper on the 'power tower' in a game of Mike's some months
ago. Snagged me good, right off the roof, another player had to save me (1 or
2 boxes of overflow did suck). When I was up however, boy did that sniper
pick the wrong place to snipe from....good old Shiraku, zotted him and made
him suddenly "connect" to the powerlines...

Yep, mortality in action...

> Bruce aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

Ya know, we're going to have to test that "educated" thing a bit ... ;)

-K
Message no. 93
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:56:55 EST
In a message dated 98-02-06 15:39:02 EST, mike@*******.COM writes:

> > Whoops. Personally I run a more realistic campaign and someone in the
> > proximity of Bull, Barbie or Binder (call 'em the terrible Bs! ;)) simply
> > doesn't fit that game (c'mon, someone who created his own metaplanes
isn't
> > actually realistic. But then, It's a matter if style). There are ways to

Hey now, it wasn't his own Metaplane, it's a Citadel within the Metaplanes,
and -THAT- isn't the same thing.

But I like the "Terrible B's" gotta look around for more....does that make
Charon part of the "Critical C's"???

> You mean like the creators of the game? Every GM has their own twist,
> or at least should, on the world of SR. Adding metaplanes is no big
> whoop. On the other hand, characters creating stuff like that is a little
> much for me. Besides, I've always thought it humorous that someone
> would call a game with magic and elves "realistic." I think the word
> "manageable" would be a better description of a sane campaign.

How about "Perceivable" instead for the term. Or "Readily
Comprehensible?"
Everyone has their own ideas and 'limits' as to what they can readily
understand, comprehend or even feel comfortable with. That is probably where
things fall most of the time, and where the definition of words like
"Powergamer" and "Munchkin" simply get people riled so often. It's
all a
matter of Perceptual Reference.

> > keep even a 1000 karma character at a bearable level (one is forcing the
> > player to burn a point of KP from time to time), but not within the basic
> > rules (-> no skill maximum). If I, as a GM don't want to make the whole
> > world full of initiates and cyberzombies, am I incompotent? See it this
> > way: Just because the PCs get better, doesn't mean the rest of the world
> > starts an arms-race (thinking that was true is kinda egocentric, isn'
it?).

Well, not entirely, but mostly true...

> On the same note, the rest of the world doesn't sit back and watch the
> characters advance without advancing itself. This is a cinematic game.
> There are always supposed to be bad guys capable of turning the PC's
> into chitlins. Even Chow Yun Fat can get shot. If the PC's get to the
> level where not even megacorps and governments can touch them, then I
> think it's time to pull the plug on the campaign.

And if one NPC can't do it, then imagine two or three of the character's
"Enemies" ganging up at one time. Damn, that's happened twice and it always
frightened the shit out of us. Worse was getting caught in a crossfire
between two different ones (Mike should remember the Insects/Vampire fight
underneath the Shattergraves and everyone finally "down to the wire" on every
resource and trick....

> > Throwing around draco-forms, toxics, horrors, bugs and small armies keeps
> > everyone busy, but that would be hack&slay, not SR (and the no-fights
> > version is pretty weak too. SR needs combat. Ever seen freindly
> > cyberpunk??(

Actually, not 'friendly' per say, but how about 'moody?' Cyberpunk is more
than violence, at least in my book. It's about subtle yet terrifying twists
of fate that make one moment's nightmare become the next moment's daydream.
'Cyberpunk' is about people who were incapable of remaining "in the light of
day" or "within the bounds" and simply had to find a way to escape their
predicament. They simply had to go to a place where they wouldn't have under
a more "sane" comparison. And sometimes, retrospection upon those decisions
can make for a very, -DEEP- game.

> Throwing bad guys at the PC's who have big stats isn't always a challenge
> for characters. Throwing *smart* bad guys at them more often is. Take
> the old AD&D example of the group of kobolds that had a leader capable
> of setting up an ambush and killing the PC's: many players never looked
> at kobolds the same way after experiencing that.

Anyone else remember/hear of the story of Tucker's Kobolds??? (THAT is evil
that even Tinner would sit back and watch).

> My whole point was that if the campaign was no longer a challenge for the
> characters, then it is the responsibility of the GM to make it one. High
> karma levels, and pools, should have no bearing on the challenge of the
> game presented by the GM (whereas abuse of karma can).

I almost agree except that in order for things to remain a "entertaining
challenge", one that is enjoyed, the exchange and development must be two or
more ways. The GM is the referee, the players are the Plotline...

-K
Message no. 94
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 02:08:11 +0000
On 6 Feb 98 at 13:37, Mike Loseke wrote:

> Thus spake Zixx:
> > Whoops. Personally I run a more realistic campaign and someone in the
> > proximity of Bull, Barbie or Binder (call 'em the terrible Bs! ;)) simply
> > doesn't fit that game (c'mon, someone who created his own metaplanes isn't
> > actually realistic. But then, It's a matter if style). There are ways to
>
> You mean like the creators of the game? Every GM has their own twist,
> or at least should, on the world of SR. Adding metaplanes is no big
> whoop.

I guess you misunerestood me. The PC created the metaplane himself.

> On the other hand, characters creating stuff like that is a little
> much for me. Besides, I've always thought it humorous that someone
> would call a game with magic and elves "realistic." I think the word
> "manageable" would be a better description of a sane campaign.

Well, you have an "envelope" of rules and mechanics (some
physics-substitutes). You can work with that.


> On the same note, the rest of the world doesn't sit back and watch the
> characters advance without advancing itself. This is a cinematic game.

Ahh, c'mon! Just because five punks from Seattle start packing heat,
doesn't mean Ares is impoving its security.

> There are always supposed to be bad guys capable of turning the PC's
> into chitlins. Even Chow Yun Fat can get shot. If the PC's get to the
> level where not even megacorps and governments can touch them, then I
> think it's time to pull the plug on the campaign.

Yup.

> > Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.
>
> Mike "that's my name" Loseke

Hey, at times I used up to eight names at once...good ol' days...


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 95
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:20:35 +0100
At 06-Feb-98 wrote Bruce Ford:


>Even Barbie, Binder and Bull can die and I think it might surprise some
>just how easily that can be done WITHOUT invoking Horrors, Dracoforms, or
>some other excessively powerful counterbalance.

>Maybe I am unique in my view, that no matter your Karma level, you are not
>a god and even a lowly street punk can take you down.

You are not alone.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 96
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:06:06 +0000
In article <199802061930.MAA23985@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes
>*Most* people don't like being shot at. However, there are people
>that get a rush from it, a kind of adrenalin high. Your basic Merc
>usually has this reaction to combat.

Even training exercises, with only blank ammo, were exhilerating. Live-
fire attacks were terrifying, yet hugely addictive.

>Also, from what I've heard,
>people exposed to extended combat operations (war) can start to feel
>this way and have a hard time readjusting to normal society
>afterwards because it's so "quiet".

Read Kent Anderson's "Sympathy for the Devil". It's an excellent novel
about a group of Special Forces troops in Vietnam, including one whose
time expired.. and he re-enlisted after a couple of months of civilian
life, because he just couldn't cope. (Yes, it's written by a veteran, I
wonder how much of it is actually fiction).

+++++
"There were days back home," Hanson said, breaking the silence, "when I
wouldn't go outside. I was afraid to go outside. Afraid I'd kill someone
and go to jail. Someone would break in front of me in line at the
grocery store, or bump into me, and I was ready to kill them, and I was
ready to kill'em. And nobody _noticed_."
+++++

Or, in a bar, where Hanson - back from a tour, and not enjoying civilian
life at all, has just beaten the living daylights out of several
strangers and is explaining himself...

+++++
"Now, let's see. The _reason_." he said, sweat dripping down his cheek.
He looked quickly around the room. "I wake up scared," he said, lowering
his voice and walking closer to the kid, "and then I get pissed off
because I'm scared, and I want to kick somebody's ass. I don't know the
difference any more between being scared and being pissed off. It's all
connected. Like the tidal pools. You change one thing around, and that
makes it so that everything else has to change, and pretty soon it's all
fucked up.

"I don't usually trust myself to get drunk in public places any more.
Hell, you _see_ what happens"...
+++++

>Keeping
>IC goes both ways. And there's an exception to every rule.

The other literary example is Gustav Hasford's "The Short-Timers",
filmed as "Full Metal Jacket".

"Animal Mother's a real well-adjusted guy. All he needs is someone to
throw hand grenades at him for the rest of his life."


When you've spent most of your adult life watching every shadow for
danger, killing potential threats, sleeping with a machine pistol under
your pillow, then trying to live a pretence of "normality" is not going
to be easy.

You're worried that your house offers any attackers good lines of
advance in dead ground. Your neighbour is more concerned about the next
PTA meeting, and won't cut the tree down to improve your field of fire,
and is even organising a petition to get "the weirdo" out of the
neighbourhood before he or she kills someone.

Retirement, for most runners, shouldn't be easy.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 97
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 03:48:56 -0500
Message text written by -Vagabond
> Tell this GM of your group he has two options: Retire them, or kill
them- and never let them get that high again. <

I don't agree with the 'Logans Run' approach to gaming. I never have.

As a player I like to have characters play the Long game, the teams know
what each other is doing, character relationships develop, generally its
alot of fun.

In AD&D I have , a number of times, sacrificed exp. to stay in the game.=

Most people agree that levels 6 - 10 are best for AD&D as the monsters ar=
e
killable and threats still exist. (No more AD&D, promise).

If you are killing your characters at 100 pts. then at best your
specialised firearms junkie would get to level 18(ish) in their chosen
weapon. Anyone would chooses this type of character development is very,=

very SAD. =


Rob....
Message no. 98
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:21:37 PST
I said:
>> Tell this GM of your group he has two options: Retire them, or
kill
>them- and never let them get that high again. <

Rob said:
>If you are killing your characters at 100 pts. then at best your
>specialised firearms junkie would get to level 18(ish) in their chosen
>weapon. Anyone would chooses this type of character development is
very,very SAD. =

You are thinking exculsively of skill ratings. The 97 karma
character I mentioned a few days ago has almost all her base attributes
maxed out(this means at 6-she's human, NOT including cyber/bio
enhancements). For just about any character, IMO, that is too powerful.
If anything, it takes the fun out of her.
As for calling me and my group "SAD", slam Vagabond day was three
days ago- but thanks for playing anyways.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 99
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:51:15 +0000
On 6 Feb 98 at 17:56, J. Keith Henry wrote:

> > > Whoops. Personally I run a more realistic campaign and someone in the
> > > proximity of Bull, Barbie or Binder (call 'em the terrible Bs! ;)) simply
> > > doesn't fit that game (c'mon, someone who created his own metaplanes
> isn't
> > > actually realistic. But then, It's a matter if style). There are ways to
>
> Hey now, it wasn't his own Metaplane, it's a Citadel within the Metaplanes,
> and -THAT- isn't the same thing.

Sorry for the misunerstanding ("I created the place" sounded a bit like
that to me. But I'm just a dumb mortal ;))
Anyway, whatever it was, it isn't really "usual" magic (neither is
teleporting some guy into a metaplane).

> But I like the "Terrible B's" gotta look around for more....does that make
> Charon part of the "Critical C's"???

I guess he's the founder (and only member ATM). ;)

> > You mean like the creators of the game? Every GM has their own twist,
> > or at least should, on the world of SR. Adding metaplanes is no big
> > whoop. On the other hand, characters creating stuff like that is a little
> > much for me. Besides, I've always thought it humorous that someone
> > would call a game with magic and elves "realistic." I think the word
> > "manageable" would be a better description of a sane campaign.
>
> How about "Perceivable" instead for the term. Or "Readily
Comprehensible?"
> Everyone has their own ideas and 'limits' as to what they can readily
> understand, comprehend or even feel comfortable with. That is probably where
> things fall most of the time, and where the definition of words like
> "Powergamer" and "Munchkin" simply get people riled so often.
It's all a
> matter of Perceptual Reference.

Hmmmm...I don't think the limit is what you can imagine. It's more what you
think is acceptable for the game. Personally I have limits for every game I
play or GM, it's the maximum of what's good for the game. It's not just
magic, but also tech (especially cyber and weapons). Sure you can explain
about everything as soon as you can pull magic and tech randomly out of
your rear end, but some is just beyond the powercurve of that game. If I
included a SR mage into a game of Kult, it would totally ruin the game,. is
it would unbalance it to no-end. Same with adding a CP2020 full-borg to SR.
Or a 'Mech for that matter. I don't consider the game a
what-can-you-think-up-contest. That would lead to a magically/technological
arms-race that's no fun anymore. Discussing it at a gerneral basis is fun,
but at some point it doesn't fit anymore (Hell, I could completely destroy
decking within a second. Do I do it? Heck, no! It's part of the game!).
All personal opinion. As always.
#include <disclaimer.h>

> > > keep even a 1000 karma character at a bearable level (one is forcing the
> > > player to burn a point of KP from time to time), but not within the basic
> > > rules (-> no skill maximum). If I, as a GM don't want to make the whole
> > > world full of initiates and cyberzombies, am I incompotent? See it this
> > > way: Just because the PCs get better, doesn't mean the rest of the world
> > > starts an arms-race (thinking that was true is kinda egocentric, isn'
> it?).
>
> Well, not entirely, but mostly true...

If the GM let's his players get to a point where they are the cause of
major corp-reorganisation, he's done something wrong. Shadowrun's a game
about common criminals, not superheros.
(Of course, nobody stops you from playing somethings other than SR in the
SR-universe)


> > > Throwing around draco-forms, toxics, horrors, bugs and small armies keeps
> > > everyone busy, but that would be hack&slay, not SR (and the no-fights
> > > version is pretty weak too. SR needs combat. Ever seen freindly
> > > cyberpunk??(
>
> Actually, not 'friendly' per say, but how about 'moody?' Cyberpunk is more
> than violence, at least in my book.

I guess you got me wrong here. Unfriendly doesn't only mean violence
(though it's part of it). It's drugs, inhuman attitude and the no-future
POV. To avoid the usual Gibson reference: Take "Seven", add "Taxi
Driver"
and "Pulp Fiction" and put it 60 years into the future (minus the 70's
music, of course).

> It's about subtle yet terrifying twists
> of fate that make one moment's nightmare become the next moment's daydream.
> 'Cyberpunk' is about people who were incapable of remaining "in the light of
> day" or "within the bounds" and simply had to find a way to escape
their
> predicament. They simply had to go to a place where they wouldn't have under
> a more "sane" comparison. And sometimes, retrospection upon those
decisions
> can make for a very, -DEEP- game.

The way you put it, you could place cyberpunk about 1400AD. Maybe we are
talking about a very different genre. :)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 100
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:21:55 -0600
> Or a 'Mech for that matter. I don't consider the game a
> what-can-you-think-up-contest. That would lead to a magically/technological
> arms-race that's no fun anymore. Discussing it at a gerneral basis is fun,
> but at some point it doesn't fit anymore (Hell, I could completely destroy
> decking within a second. Do I do it? Heck, no! It's part of the game!).

I've been following this thread for a while now, even thrown 2 cents
worth in on it earlier. I think perhaps it's time to up the ante. At
any rate, I think everyone that has been following the thread have noted
two distinct schools of thought on the topic.

It has been my experience that there are a lot of Power Gamers that
play RPG's. While definitions and terms may vary, power gamers
inevitably make themselves known by going outside the parameters of the
established system and creating or developing player characters that are
far beyond the scope of the original rules.

The funny thing to note is that almost every roleplayer goes through a
power gaming stage at one time or another if left to their own devices.
It's fun to play a character that is super human and capable of single
handedly defeating threats that would make most small armies duck and
run for cover. It's a nice feeling to think of yourself as nearly
invincible, and to have NPC's and other players alike look up to your
character. Most GM's go through this stage as well, often referred to
as the "Monty Haul" stage by those of us that have been around for a
while. They like to give their players the ability to develop rapidly
and possess items and abilities far beyond the limits of the gaming
system. This is all well and good, provided both the GM's and the
players themselves are having fun. That is the purpose, after all. It
is a game.

But it is ironic to note that after a while most power gamers move on.
They begin to realize that it is far more fun to play a character with
human weaknesses and failings, a character that can actually lose.
Eventually you realize that your super powered characters simply aren't
fun anymore. You've had all of the cool toys, all of the incredible
cosmic power, been able to leap tall buildings in a single bound for so
long that the luster simply wears off.

It takes some longer than others, and some never loose their taste for
the all powerful character archetype. But all in all it doesn't really
matter. If your group is having fun then you can't really be doing it
"wrong". What I prefer in a game as a GM doesn't really mean diddly to
anyone other than my players. But I think you will find, as I have,
that eventually most power gamers will abandon their superpowerful
characters, start over from scratch and have a lot more fun earning
their advancement and working towards a goal rather than having things
made so easy for them. It's just a phase that the majority of
roleplayers go through. Well, I think that actually worked out to be
about 2 bits worth, so we'll call the grand total 27 cents and get back
to work. (BTW Zixx, this wasn't so much directed towards you, or anyone
in particular, your post just provided a convienent reference for this
rant :)

Digger
Message no. 101
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: All That Karma
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:46:25 -0500
Digger said:
> But it is ironic to note that after a while most power gamers move on.
> They begin to realize that it is far more fun to play a character with
> human weaknesses and failings, a character that can actually lose.

Other things happen as well, to your gaming style. Hell, for the past year,
I've been playing in a campaign where the characters don't even have stats.
I haven't rolled a die yet. It's the best campaign I've ever been in.

Wordman

"I do not seek, I find."
-- Pablo Picasso

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about All That Karma, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!