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Message no. 1
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:20:00 -0500
> One thing that would help, however, is if those freelancers who work on
> projetc don't say a single thing about the project UNTIL it comes out to
> the general public. That would include not even mentionin that you worked
> on it. Now, I understand you are (justifiably) proud to have contributed
> to SR. But, since you are bound by NDA's to not reveal anything specific
> about a project before it is released, it just frutrates some when you
> mention vague details, or even the fact that you worked on it. You most
> likely don't mean it this way, but it can come across as a NAH NAH, I know
> something you don't! attitude. Once the item in question has been
> released, please, please let us know you worked on it, so we have someone
> to blame, err, I mean congraulate. However, before that time, don't even
> mention it, and it might make things better.


This is a very valid point.
I thought long and hard before I replied to any of this stuff, but this is
one that sticks with me.

Far be it from me to fault anyone for being proud of their work.
I have playtested for FASA, and I can understand how exciting it is to know
well in advance what new products are coming. Heck, we got a playtest copy
of MitS and the whole group went nuts.
However, it's easy for that exuberance and pride to come off to others as
snobbery.
Sort of an "I know something you don't know ..." kind of thing.
I've seen this one on iRC before, and here on the list too.

Granted, a lot of these things happen like this.
A: "Who knows what's coming from FASA?"
B: "There's a new book called Year of the Comet coming in a couple months."
A: "What's that about?"
B: <Chuckle> I can't tell you, I'm a playtester, and I signed an NDA. But
it's gonna be cool! Trust me! <chuckle>

Despite the best of intentions on B's part, in the above exchange he comes
out looking like a jerk.

This dovetails into the second peeve of mine, and that's the way newbies and
lurkers often get treated here on ShadowRN.
It's a simple fact that there are gonna be newbies on this list. There will
be lurkers too, but they can become regular posters if given a little
encouragement.
All to often we see a post like this ..

"Hey all, I just designed this great new piece of gear I call the Cyber
Chunk-launcher v 2.0. Here it is!"

The poor new poster is then ripped to shreds by the old-timers who can;t
wait to shout the bugger ddown as a "munchkin" and explain to him how this
can;t possibly work as canon, because the rules won't allow it.

And so ends the career (and probably the subscription) of another newbie
lurker.
All the guy wanted to do was share his enthusiasm about this great game, and
all we do is crush his post without mercy. It happens all too often.

IMO we need a post format that newbies and lurkers can use to let us know to
be gentle on them.
I think if people new that the poster of the "kewl new gear" was a 13 year
old kid who just bought the main book this week, they'd reply with a little
more understanding.

<ATTN. GRIDSEC>
What's the opinion on having newbies, or lurkers tag their first post (or
any post they want comment on) with the <DECLOAK>, or <NEWBIE> tag right in
the subject line?
I know I'd look at the post a little less critically if I saw a post marked
that way.

That's my take on the whole matter.
It's just a game people. It's not a conspiracy. It's not your life.
Relax.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"I'm a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess. But not that much." -
The Possum Lodge Motto, The Red Green Show
Message no. 2
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:56:53 -0500
On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:20:00 -0500 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.com> writes:
> Far be it from me to fault anyone for being proud of their work.
> I have playtested for FASA, and I can understand how exciting it is
> to know
> well in advance what new products are coming. Heck, we got a
> playtest copy
> of MitS and the whole group went nuts.
> However, it's easy for that exuberance and pride to come off to
> others as
> snobbery.
> Sort of an "I know something you don't know ..." kind of thing.
> I've seen this one on iRC before, and here on the list too.
>

I agree, and feel that it is more helpful to simply say nothing.
OTOH, when Man and Machine was still in teh works, saying "we got a
nanotech section in, written by X" was helpful, giving information
without the attitude.
It's a fine line.

> This dovetails into the second peeve of mine, and that's the way
> newbies and
> lurkers often get treated here on ShadowRN.
> It's a simple fact that there are gonna be newbies on this list.
> There will
> be lurkers too, but they can become regular posters if given a
> little
> encouragement.

There's also the posts that simply get lost in teh shuffle and never
replied to.
I try to read my list mail each night, and I also "save" the emails I
would like to reply to, but I miss plenty.
Sometimes the list is on a subject that I don't really care for and mass
delete.

>
> <ATTN. GRIDSEC>
> What's the opinion on having newbies, or lurkers tag their first
> post (or
> any post they want comment on) with the <DECLOAK>, or <NEWBIE> tag
> right in
> the subject line?
> I know I'd look at the post a little less critically if I saw a post
> marked
> that way.
>

obviously I'm not gridsec, but I think they've already ditched most of
the tags, which is good.
If they're a newbie, they wouldn't know about the need for the tag anyway
:-)
OTOH, perhaps a welcome committee or some such, to make sure that a post
or two IS seen, and IS responded to, to give them some encouragement.
<shrug>

> That's my take on the whole matter.
> It's just a game people. It's not a conspiracy. It's not your life.
> Relax.
>

I agree, it's just a game, no consiracy, not a life.
but, relax? nyah, we PLAY shadowrun to relax and have fun
we discuss it to get worked up for combat :-)
(just kidding, mainly...)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:16:17 +0100
According to Steven A. Tinner, on Wed, 01 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> > One thing that would help, however, is if those freelancers who work on
> > projetc don't say a single thing about the project UNTIL it comes out to
> > the general public.
>
> This is a very valid point.
> I thought long and hard before I replied to any of this stuff, but this is
> one that sticks with me.

I have to agree. Although I'm now also "on the inside" and so know what's
going to be released, I also remember how extremely annoying it was to read
messages from others mentioning upcoming books before that.

The best way to do this, it seems to me, is simply to not reply to things
where you'd have to post teasers in order to reply at all, instead leaving
it to others to answer. Others, I might add, who do _not_ know about FASA's
upcoming releases except for what's public knowledge. The "insiders" could
simply restate the public knowledge too, of course, but IMHO there's too
great a chance of saying just that little bit too much (for an example, see
Patrick's recent post about the new North America book).

> However, it's easy for that exuberance and pride to come off to others as
> snobbery.

Not to mention cause jealousy -- "I want that too!"

> This dovetails into the second peeve of mine, and that's the way newbies and
> lurkers often get treated here on ShadowRN.
[snip]
> And so ends the career (and probably the subscription) of another newbie
> lurker.
> All the guy wanted to do was share his enthusiasm about this great game, and
> all we do is crush his post without mercy. It happens all too often.

The other side of this is that "we" in many/most cases probably don't see it
as cutting down the ideas, but as explaining how it can be made to fit into
the world as we see it. And that touches on the community thing again:
groups of people develop a common worldview, and when someone comes who
doesn't conform to it well enough, they'll try to bring them over to the
"commonly accepted" view.

> <ATTN. GRIDSEC>
> What's the opinion on having newbies, or lurkers tag their first post (or
> any post they want comment on) with the <DECLOAK>, or <NEWBIE> tag right
in
> the subject line?
> I know I'd look at the post a little less critically if I saw a post marked
> that way.

The problem is that a large number of new posters don't seem to read the
FAQ, so how would you want to bring this tag to their attention?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:09:56 -0500
>I have to agree. Although I'm now also "on the inside" and so know
what's
>going to be released, I also remember how extremely annoying it was
to read
>messages from others mentioning upcoming books before that.

>the best way to do this, it seems to me, is simply to not reply to
things
>where you'd have to post teasers in order to reply at all, instead
leaving
>it to others to answer. Others, I might add, who do _not_ know
about FASA's
>upcoming releases except for what's public knowledge. The
"insiders" could
>simply restate the public knowledge too, of course, but IMHO
there's too
>great a chance of saying just that little bit too much (for an
example, see
>Patrick's recent post about the new North America book).

I wish FASA would give a summary of what was included in their books. I
was not planning on buying any more books from them, however from Patricks
post I plan to save up and buy one more. Some of us don't have the money to
shell out everything here and there or the time to create wonderful new
worlds. I love to write my own worlds and campaign styles, I did allot of
that in college but now I don't have the time to devote to it. So a book
that comes out that really fleshes out a certain part is worth the
investment for me. I am currently running a campaign in the CAS area and
all the books I have or have read( which is everything from 1st edition to
Matrix excluding only shutdown and some early adventures) there are only 2
books with any sort of info on the CAS area. And that at most is a total of
like 20 pages.

Anyway the point of this is to say I wish someone would give a broad
overview of what is in some of the books. YOTC I still have no idea what
this about and every on says it is going to be cool and all I can think of
ok whatever it is about some comet crashing into the Earth and now we have
the movie Armageddon SR style. Well that is of NO interest to me. Then TNA
up until recently I was thinking oh great a ton of more info on UCAS,
another 5 pages for CAS, and about 20 pages for all the Indian lands, and
some updates on CFS and TT, and possibly some info on what is now Canada.
Well Patricks post made me a bit more optimistic about the book.

Well that's all

DL
Message no. 5
From: Mark C Farrington alareth@*********.net
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:04:34 -0500
> ...YOTC I still have no idea what
> this about and every on says it is going to be cool and all I can think of
> ok whatever it is about some comet crashing into the Earth and now we have
> the movie Armageddon SR style. Well that is of NO interest to
> me.

>From what I gather as one of the people who isn't on the inside track. YotC
involves the return of Halleys comet ant how it's presence affect the magic
levels in the awakened world or somesuch.

Alareth
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:06:43 +0100
According to Lute, David, on Wed, 01 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Anyway the point of this is to say I wish someone would give a broad
> overview of what is in some of the books.

It looks like you mean overviews of upcoming books, but let me make a quick
plug: if you're looking for overviews of the older books (those released up
to about a year ago), check my web site at http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun

However, the main problem with talking about what's in upcoming books is
that those who know, like for instance the people who've written or
playtested them, have signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) that forbid
them to talk about it to those who haven't. So, basically, we _can't_ talk
about it even though most of us probably would love to share what we know...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:50:01 -0500
>However, the main problem with talking about what's in upcoming
books is
>that those who know, like for instance the people who've written or
>playtested them, have signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) that
forbid
>them to talk about it to those who haven't. So, basically, we
_can't_ talk
>about it even though most of us probably would love to share what
we know...

I know you can't talk about them because of the NDA. However I wish FASA
would give us at least a brief overview or something to get our interest in
the book. I understand NDA very well being a software developer and having
to sign one everything I work on a project and then making sure code is not
the same here as it was there. But the overview FASA gives tells us really
nothing that would make me interested in buying a book. So I don't rust out
and get one. I wait to hear about it and then make my decision on other
peoples ideas of the book. Or if enough people talk about it I might get
all I need out of the book from peoples reviews or comments so why buy it.
However there are some books I have later gone and bought after borrowing a
friends cause there are hidden gems or cool stuff in it.

Don't want to beat a dead horse anymore. Just saying that even though you
can't it would be nice for it to leak out what would be in it. Even if FASA
or someone just released the Table of contents would be enough to get most
of us interested enough to buy it.

DL
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:55:35 -0600
From: "Mark C Farrington" <alareth@*********.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:04 AM

> From what I gather as one of the people who isn't on the inside track.
> YotC involves the return of Halleys comet ant how it's presence affect
> the magic levels in the awakened world or somesuch.

YEAR OF THE COMET is not solely concerned about the big snowball in space
that is Comet Halley. Some information about the significance of said
snowball is, of course, included, but a lot of shit happens that isn't
directly related to the comet; it only happens during the approximate year
or so, from about August 2061 to about May 2062, when the comet is visible
to Earth.

I'm not trying to come off as a snob or anything here; literally, I'm not
supposed to discuss it. But to try and hype it somewhat, please let me say
that it's not just about the comet and cults. There is a lot of cool shit
in there, and while it may not be worth the extensive wait, it's going to be
worth shelling out a few dollars for.

I'm going to draw fire for being "elitist" and "a FASA apologist"
again, but
believe me when I tell you that the problems that have plagued this book
have been out of Mike Mulvihill's hands. When the president of the company
you work for tells you to do certain things first, before you go and do the
things that you want to do, you listen to Mort and do what he tells you.
When you have a couple of pivotal people in your organization, people like
Jill Lucas and Jim Nelson, decide to leave, it tears up the schedule too.
FASA also produces games other than Shadowrun, games which had been getting
the short end of the production stick thanks to Shadowrun, and it turned out
to be time for some of them to have the spotlight.

Before you go tearing at Mike, though, folks, stop and think about what this
little company with 20 people working for it manages to do. It ain't
perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than some companies I've dealt with
in the past.

And if that's being an apologist, then yeah, I guess I am. Live with it.
Message no. 9
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 20:04:42 +1000
>Granted, a lot of these things happen like this.
>A: "Who knows what's coming from FASA?"
>B: "There's a new book called Year of the Comet coming in a couple months."
>A: "What's that about?"
>B: <Chuckle> I can't tell you, I'm a playtester, and I signed an NDA. But
>it's gonna be cool! Trust me! <chuckle>
>
>Despite the best of intentions on B's part, in the above exchange he comes
>out looking like a jerk.

Indeed, he does. However, may I suggest that's B's fault for not phrasing
it quite as tactfully as he otherwise might? There are plenty of ways he
could have phrased it without coming across as "nyah nyah" - whether
intentionally or no.

The alternative, what you're suggesting, is that the freelancers sit on
their hands and watch people endlessly hash out a subject that's going to
be covered in a book due out in six weeks (or whatever) anyway.

Yes, the people who have 'insider knowledge' perhaps need to be more
sensitive to the fact that their knowledge can be perceived as gloating.
But it's not like FASA's a closed shop. Having written a few pieces for
FASA doesn't make me innately special, and it's not something you need
particular fingerprints, eye color or accent to do. What, you think I'm
related to Mike? You think I bought the Mulvihills two cases of baby
formula for Clementine and bribed my way into it? You think I slunk into
his bed clad in leather and whipped cream whispering "take me I'm yours big
boy, oh and how about a writing contract while you're at it?"

(Sorry, brief break for me to recover from the hysterical laughter that
that mental picture engendered.)

Nope. I got talking to Mike over the internet - and he knew me from *this
list*, not any other quasi-elitist jackbooted fascist source - I discussed
a few things I'd like to work on, and he gave me a shot. I sent in some
proposals; he liked one, he gave me my first contract. Bingo. There is
NOTHING stopping any of the rest of you from doing the same. It isn't a
closed shop; it's not a Masonic lodge; it's not an inherited title; it's a
job description. Apply, get the job. If I can, so can any of you. But for
the love of God, please don't make me feel uncomfortable about doing
something I used to be proud of.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 10
From: J. Keith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:31:49 -0500
From: "Lady Jestyr" <jestyr@*********.html.com>
Subject: Re: All this Elitest Stuff


> The alternative, what you're suggesting, is that the freelancers sit on
> their hands and watch people endlessly hash out a subject that's going to
> be covered in a book due out in six weeks (or whatever) anyway.

grr......

> Yes, the people who have 'insider knowledge' perhaps need to be more
> sensitive to the fact that their knowledge can be perceived as gloating.
> But it's not like FASA's a closed shop. Having written a few pieces for
> FASA doesn't make me innately special, and it's not something you need
> particular fingerprints, eye color or accent to do. What, you think I'm
> related to Mike? You think I bought the Mulvihills two cases of baby
> formula for Clementine and bribed my way into it?

No comment... no, we here never bought anything like that...

>You think I slunk into
> his bed clad in leather and whipped cream whispering "take me I'm yours
big
> boy, oh and how about a writing contract while you're at it?"

uhm... erhm.... uhmm....

> (Sorry, brief break for me to recover from the hysterical laughter that
> that mental picture engendered.)

*YOU* need a break???? You probably just careened over a dozen or more
people with that statement.

> Nope. I got talking to Mike over the internet - and he knew me from *this
> list*, not any other quasi-elitist jackbooted fascist source - I discussed
> a few things I'd like to work on, and he gave me a shot. I sent in some
> proposals; he liked one, he gave me my first contract. Bingo. There is
> NOTHING stopping any of the rest of you from doing the same. It isn't a
> closed shop; it's not a Masonic lodge; it's not an inherited title; it's a
> job description. Apply, get the job. If I can, so can any of you. But for
> the love of God, please don't make me feel uncomfortable about doing
> something I used to be proud of.

*BIG HUG*

Now give me that whip you... (*starts to look around for Tamino...*)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K", "NeoJudas")
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 11
From: Gordon McCormick gmcc@*********.ie
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:53:28 +0000
On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:04:42PM +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> If I can, so can any of you. But for
> the love of God, please don't make me feel uncomfortable about doing
> something I used to be proud of.

Used to be? Ah c'mon, you still should be!

Go Jestyr, go Jestyr!

gordon
Message no. 12
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:11:30 -0600
From: "Lady Jestyr" <jestyr@*********.html.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 4:04 AM

> Apply, get the job. If I can, so can any of you. But for
> the love of God, please don't make me feel uncomfortable
> about doing something I used to be proud of.

Long, loud, sustained applause....
Message no. 13
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: All this Elitest Stuff
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:20:17 EST
In a message dated 11/2/00 5:10:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jestyr@*********.html.com writes:

> You think I slunk into
> his bed clad in leather and whipped cream whispering "take me I'm yours big
> boy, oh and how about a writing contract while you're at it?"
>
> (Sorry, brief break for me to recover from the hysterical laughter that
> that mental picture engendered.)
>

What about the screaming in horror?:-)

Further Reading

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