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Message no. 1
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:09:21 +1000
I'm throwing this one out to the list to pull to bits;

I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)

Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.

(I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)

I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
works in Shadowrun.

Thanks All.

Bleach
Message no. 2
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:17:28 -0800
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, M. Gotthard wrote:

> I'm throwing this one out to the list to pull to bits;
>
> I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
> oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
>
> Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
> idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
> ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.
>
> (I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)
nope sorry...

>
> I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
> do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
> works in Shadowrun.

Why not just make him have a really good connection to his totem (he _is_
shamantic right?)

>
> Thanks All.
>
> Bleach
>

~Tim
Message no. 3
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:30:15 +1000
> I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
> do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
> works in Shadowrun.

Personal opinion says it oughta be ok. i mean, as a phys ad, you can't
use it as a power focus, give it spells, and I doubt you can make it more
powerful. You could teach it some of your skills, tho. All in all, it'd
be like a useful NPC, and not game unbalancing at all.

Can you imagine an ally going around with 9 stealth and some huge amount
of firearms? Hmmm... Maybe a little worse than I thought... *grin*

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If we come back from heaven, do we get arrested for illegal immigration?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:32:20 +1000
> > (I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)
>
> nope sorry...
>
Don't stress.... it's just for us Aussie's who don't have any real idea
what Amerind culture is all about (me indluded, really), save from tacky
Hollywood Westerns.

> > I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
> > do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
> > works in Shadowrun.
>
> Why not just make him have a really good connection to his totem (he _is_
> shamantic right?)
>

Nope.... Phys Ad. Just cause he's tribal doesn't mean he has to be a
shaman. He's shamanic in outlook, because of his background, but he's
not a Physical Mage (a.k.a. Physical Shaman for the PC out there).

That's where the problem lies; No astral sight at present....and no
sorcery ability.

I could assign a sort of totem to him, but that's very restrictive for no
gain, I'd rather have the ally, and call it a spirit guide.

Bleach
Message no. 5
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:40:28 +1000
> > I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
> > do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
> > works in Shadowrun.
>
> Personal opinion says it oughta be ok. i mean, as a phys ad, you can't
> use it as a power focus, give it spells, and I doubt you can make it more
> powerful. You could teach it some of your skills, tho. All in all, it'd
> be like a useful NPC, and not game unbalancing at all.
>
> Can you imagine an ally going around with 9 stealth and some huge amount
> of firearms? Hmmm... Maybe a little worse than I thought... *grin*
>

Ummm, yeah... I could do that I guess, but I have to say that I'd never
thought of it. I'd have to treat it like a 0-skill starting baby and
feed it karma (and lots of it) to increase its skills.

Besides, there's the question of whether this particular ally would have
the fetish for firearms that my character does.
Message no. 6
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:46:27 -0800
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, M. Gotthard wrote:

[snip]

> >
> > Why not just make him have a really good connection to his totem (he _is_
> > shamantic right?)
> >
>
> Nope.... Phys Ad. Just cause he's tribal doesn't mean he has to be a
> shaman. He's shamanic in outlook, because of his background, but he's
> not a Physical Mage (a.k.a. Physical Shaman for the PC out there).

No, no, no... I don't mean that he's a shamantic adept or physical
mage/shaman, but that he's a physical adept who follows a totem (I
remember reading that many tribal physads. did that sort of thing - much
in the same way that shamans did, but with out the actual game
ads/disads.).

>
> That's where the problem lies; No astral sight at present....and no
> sorcery ability.
>
> I could assign a sort of totem to him, but that's very restrictive for no
> gain, I'd rather have the ally, and call it a spirit guide.

The totem would have no real influence (game stat wise) on the character
but would act as the "Spirit guide" you mentioned.

Although I don't know exactly what your looking for in the aforementioned
spirit guide. Something physical, something to appear in dreams and give
advice, etc.. etc..??


>
> Bleach
>

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:01:11 +1000
> Ummm, yeah... I could do that I guess, but I have to say that I'd never
> thought of it. I'd have to treat it like a 0-skill starting baby and
> feed it karma (and lots of it) to increase its skills.
>
> Besides, there's the question of whether this particular ally would have
> the fetish for firearms that my character does.

*grin* If it's YOUR spirit guide, I can't see how it won't! :)

True point on the karma, tho...

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If we come back from heaven, do we get arrested for illegal immigration?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:09:46 +1000
> > I could assign a sort of totem to him, but that's very restrictive for no
> > gain, I'd rather have the ally, and call it a spirit guide.
>
> The totem would have no real influence (game stat wise) on the character
> but would act as the "Spirit guide" you mentioned.
>
Yeah, but we're into role-playing a whole lot, and taking on a wolf
shaman's attitude (or whatever) is fairly restrictive in that sense.

> Although I don't know exactly what your looking for in the aforementioned
> spirit guide. Something physical, something to appear in dreams and give
> advice, etc.. etc..??
>
Definitely something physical... my character's a scout/sniper, and having
backup would be useful. The spirit guide thing is just to give me a
basis from which to choose his manifest forms and other stuff.

In any case, i assume you think that it should be possible? Me too,
though after the rather didactic threads about watchers, etc that I've
seen on here, I assume that others aren't of the same mind as me.

Thanks Tim. Anyone else?

Bleach
Message no. 9
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:03:47 EST
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:09:46 +1000 "M. Gotthard"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:

[snip]

>> Although I don't know exactly what your looking for in the
aforementioned
>> spirit guide. Something physical, something to appear in dreams and
give
>> advice, etc.. etc..??
>>
>Definitely something physical... my character's a scout/sniper, and
having
>backup would be useful. The spirit guide thing is just to give me a
>basis from which to choose his manifest forms and other stuff.
>
>In any case, i assume you think that it should be possible? Me too,
>though after the rather didactic threads about watchers, etc that I've
>seen on here, I assume that others aren't of the same mind as me.

Well, actually I have problems if you want a REAL ally spirit. Although
I could kinda see him getting hooked up with a low force free spirit
(like 1, maybe during his initiation ... a gift from his totem purhaps?
or something?). That way you don't explicitly break any game rules.

Maybe wait until he has initiated and had a chance to go on something
like a Vision Quest ... hook him up with the spirit then (maybe it helps
him out in one of the areas...)

>
>Thanks Tim. Anyone else?
>
>Bleach
>

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:58:46 -0800
At 12:09 2/19/97 +1000, M. Gotthard wrote:
>I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
>oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)

>Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
>idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
>ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.
...
>I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
>do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
>works in Shadowrun.

I would not suggest getting an Ally spirit, as mages have. If I had a player
wanting to do something like this, I would invent a similar initiation ordeal
to "Ally" for PhysAds who only follow a totem: "Spirit Guide".

What this would amount to would be a quest to the metaplane of the totem you
follow-- you don't have to be a shamanic physad to follow a totem of your
own free will for this-- where your totem introduces you to a Free Spirit
there. You give the spirit some karma then and there in order to forge a
link with it, and the spirit now has the ability to get to the physical
world rather than being stuck in the metaplanes. This karmic link works
as long as the totem continues to approve of it, and the spirit gets a few
bonuses like being able to speak with you in your mind, perhaps even send
images both ways as well.

As a bonus, you can donate karma to the spirit at a 1:1 ratio. As you make
the spirit more buff, it can do more to help you out, picking up on information
available in the collective unconscious that spirits have access to, and
so on.

If the link goes away because you died or weren't keeping to the principles
of your totem, the spirit no longer has a way back to the material plane if
it gets stuck in the metaplanes again.

--
%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 11
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:03:56 +0000
|
|I'm throwing this one out to the list to pull to bits;
|
|I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
|oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
|
|Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
|idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
|ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.

Nope. Can't get conjuring.... Sorry....

|(I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)

Which one? Seen most of them... Don't remember a vision quest episode
though.

|I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
|do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
|works in Shadowrun.

No. However, there is a way around it which is more.... Plausible....

Have him befriend a Free Spirit. They have astral gateway (or can have) and
can do what the hell they want.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:37:32 +0000
On 19 Feb 97 at 12:32, M. Gotthard wrote:
[snip Physad with Ally]
> > Why not just make him have a really good connection to his totem (he _is_
> > shamantic right?)
> Nope.... Phys Ad. Just cause he's tribal doesn't mean he has to be a
> shaman. He's shamanic in outlook, because of his background, but he's
> not a Physical Mage (a.k.a. Physical Shaman for the PC out there).
Aua. Shamanic doesn't mean he has to be a shman, just he shares the
_believe_ in the spirit world. I'd say most of tribal NAN would be
shamanic, although I deary hope not most of them are shamans! :-)

> That's where the problem lies; No astral sight at present....and no
> sorcery ability.
He doesn't have to have sorcery to summon an Ally, just conjuring (Ally
would have Sorc. 0, then). Although I think the lack of astral
perception is a greater hindrance, as the PhysAd would have to call the
spirit guide/Ally from a metaplane (most probably a shamanic one...),
but as it's not really neccessary to have it, as a GM I'd just give you
a +1 or +2 TN.

> I could assign a sort of totem to him, but that's very restrictive for no
> gain, I'd rather have the ally, and call it a spirit guide.
As I understand it, even in the down-cycle (fifth world) Indians
followed totems (at least until white man took "influence" (<-training
in euphemisms!)).

Hm... I just thought of an Ally with high Firearms skill in a
firefight... and suddenly remember Immunity to Normal Weapons Power...
scary!!!

On 19 Feb 97 at 12:40, M. Gotthard wrote:
[snip]
> > Can you imagine an ally going around with 9 stealth and some huge
> > amount of firearms? Hmmm... Maybe a little worse than I thought...
> > *grin*
> Ummm, yeah... I could do that I guess, but I have to say that I'd
> never thought of it. I'd have to treat it like a 0-skill starting
> baby and feed it karma (and lots of it) to increase its skills.
Ah, someone else had the same thought....

"Feeding it Karma" is not, I repeat NOT the way to increase an Ally.
You have to spend the Karma in the Ritual of Change (see grimoire, pp.
71-72).

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |I don't believe in love,|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ |I never have, / I never |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de |will, / I don't believe |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| in love / it's never |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |worth the pain you feel |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----Queensryche-+
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:06:14 +0000
|Ummm, yeah... I could do that I guess, but I have to say that I'd never
|thought of it. I'd have to treat it like a 0-skill starting baby and
|feed it karma (and lots of it) to increase its skills.

You can't do that with Allies. You've got to do a really karma intensive and
complicated ritual that practically rewrites the allies formaula to improve
it.....

|Besides, there's the question of whether this particular ally would have
|the fetish for firearms that my character does.

Allies are what that character designs them to be.
I think you're confuseing them with free spirits.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:27:46 -0500
M. Gotthard wrote,
>I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
>do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
>works in Shadowrun.

Working on background idea foundations and some Earthdawn
referencing, Magic works on collected perception. If enough people
beleive in Physads have ally spirits then so be it. I haven't watched
Northern Exposure but personaly don't see it happening.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 15
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:15:39 -0700
Bleach Expounded:

> I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
> oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
>
> Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
> idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
> ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.
>
> (I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)
>
> I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
> do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
> works in Shadowrun.

We have been using the idea of Shamanic physads for awhile before
Awakenings ever came out and we were allowing for a limited form of astral
projection for the adepts called a Vision Quest. The physad had to be in a
medicine lodge of the appropriate type and in the correct domain for it to
work, but this ability just allowed the adept to visit the metaplane of his
totem. The same setup might work for you here. Tribal medicine men were
going on vision quests for hundreds of years before the amakening and who
are we to say if their visions were true or not. Assume they were and
going of that assumption a physad in 205x should have at least as good if
not a better chance of attuning himself to the astral energies than a
mundane man did hundreds of years ago.

Well there ya have it the world according to Caric =)

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:21:11 -0500
>> > I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
>> > do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
>> > works in Shadowrun.

I still don't understand why a totem is inapproptriate.... I haven't seen
Northern exposure, and my understanding of these things in RL is equally
limited, but as I understand it, the spirit guide advises far more than
having an active role in physical reality. Depending on how your role-play
totems, (or actually, how the GM role-plays totems) this sounds like the
same thing (read the Secrets of Power Trilogy, and look at Verner and Dog.)

If you want the ally, I'd say get a free spirit. More approriate.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 17
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:25:28 -0500
Caric wrote,
>... Tribal medicine men were going on vision quests for hundreds of
>years before the amakening ...
and those medicine men are considered SR's shamans. Their
relationship with spirits are different than those of warriors (your
tribal PhysAd).


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 18
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 03:27:39 +0100
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:09:21 +1000, M. Gotthard wrote:

>I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
>oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
>
>Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
>idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
>ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.
>
>(I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)
>
>I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
>works in Shadowrun.

The way magic works in _my_ Sr, it would be plausible.
The character has his connection to Wildcat, and (I read Grimmy
german this day) totems alway choose right. So he can't loose a
totem. Noone can, but you can act not according to totem.
Anyway, totem might of course think it adequate to give an ally.
So if it fits with the PS's background give it to him!
But of course PC could only interact with ally on physical world,
and that means the ally would have to be manifest a lot of time.
And of course an ally is a NPC, so the GM can try to use the ally
as some sort of connection or buddy, but the ally should be
very totemish all the time. It's more a part of the totem than a
free spirit, since totem gave it.
I think it can manifest only as a wildcat, and do only things that
the totem likes. Imagine the Adept standing in a street, talking to
some cat. The people will like him. Great ideas for role-playing, of
course, but the PC won't benefit too much, so I'd give an ally to him.

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
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*********************************************************************
Message no. 19
From: Adam Treloar <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:01:22 -0500
>|I'm throwing this one out to the list to pull to bits;
>|
>|I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
>|oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
>|
>|Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
>|idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
>|ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.
>
>Nope. Can't get conjuring.... Sorry....

Technically, he can. Non-magical characters CAN learn the skill, I think
(in awakenings) but they can't actually apply it. Same should hold for adepts.

[snip]

>No. However, there is a way around it which is more.... Plausible....
>
>Have him befriend a Free Spirit. They have astral gateway (or can have) and
>can do what the hell they want.....

Personally, I'd prefer the ally. He can't do as much with it, and it's less
game unbalancing.

Guardian
Message no. 20
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:28:28 +1000
> >I'm not asking whether the RULES say it is possible, becasue I'm going to
> >do it anyway..... I'm asking if it is plausible, given the way magic
> >works in Shadowrun.
>
> I would not suggest getting an Ally spirit, as mages have. If I had a player
> wanting to do something like this, I would invent a similar initiation ordeal
> to "Ally" for PhysAds who only follow a totem: "Spirit Guide".
>
<snip>

> If the link goes away because you died or weren't keeping to the principles
> of your totem, the spirit no longer has a way back to the material plane if
> it gets stuck in the metaplanes again.
>

Sounds like the ally spirit you have when you're not having an ally spirit.
*grin*

Thanks for the input; Gives me more backgorund to draw upon.

As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more sink for me to put Karma
into..... besides, how cool would it be to have one? *grin*

Bleach
Message no. 21
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:32:23 +1000
> |I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
> |oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
> |
> |Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
> |idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
> |ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.
>
> Nope. Can't get conjuring.... Sorry....
>
Can so, just like mundanes can get Sorcery..... It'd be pretty much
useless to me expect for this particular spirit, though.... which means
I'll never bother getting it at high rating, and will consequently never
have a really powerful spirit buddy.

> |(I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)
>
> Which one? Seen most of them... Don't remember a vision quest episode
> though.
>
The amerindian guy (don't remember his name) goes looking for his parents
identity, aided by a spirit that only he can see.

Don't worry about it.

> Have him befriend a Free Spirit. They have astral gateway (or can have) and
> can do what the hell they want.....

Yeah, but that's waaay too much roleplaying *grin*

Actually, for an example of astral gateway, check out Lady Jestyr's
hompage, it's got a spell we've made that does the trick for you.

Bleach
Message no. 22
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:35:33 +1000
> > I could assign a sort of totem to him, but that's very restrictive for no
> > gain, I'd rather have the ally, and call it a spirit guide.
>
> As I understand it, even in the down-cycle (fifth world) Indians
> followed totems (at least until white man took "influence" (<-training
> in euphemisms!)).
>

True enough, but my character doesn't fit any one totem... though, eagle
comes damned close.

> Hm... I just thought of an Ally with high Firearms skill in a
> firefight... and suddenly remember Immunity to Normal Weapons Power...
> scary!!!
>
*grin* That's why I don't want him (her) to get firearms.... I'm not a
munchkin.

> "Feeding it Karma" is not, I repeat NOT the way to increase an Ally.
> You have to spend the Karma in the Ritual of Change (see grimoire, pp.
> 71-72).
>

That's what I was referring to.

Bleach
Message no. 23
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:37:51 +1000
> |Besides, there's the question of whether this particular ally would have
> |the fetish for firearms that my character does.
>
> Allies are what that character designs them to be.
> I think you're confuseing them with free spirits.

It depends a lot whether you want it to be just a bigger, nastier
elemental or something more..... Read Burning Bright for an example.

Hell, I really don't want my spirit to get firearms for the simple reason
that I'm going to be damned well good enough myself.

Bleach
Message no. 24
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:37:11 EST
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:57:57 -0500 MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:
> If one was to allow a PC to buy a free spirit as one of their
>buddies from CharGen then how would you build the free spirit?
>
>- MC23, pondering viable options -
>

One would grab the Gimoire II, flip to the section on creating Free
Spirits and start rolling (or choosing) on the charts.

I imagine that you could spend resources to increase the force and may be
buy it more starting powers...or not depending on how you want it to
work. Serious "GM's discretion" territory.

~Tim
Message no. 25
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:48:06 +0000
|Personally, I'd prefer the ally. He can't do as much with it, and it's less
|game unbalancing.

It's only unbalancing if you give the free spirit useful skills/powers.

Give it hidden life, astral gateway and a manifest form and it's not
unbalancing in the least.

Especially if it only advises and helps in vision quests and doesn't do much
more.... (A la Benton Frasers dad....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:10:00 +0000
|> Nope. Can't get conjuring.... Sorry....
|>
|Can so, just like mundanes can get Sorcery..... It'd be pretty much
|useless to me expect for this particular spirit, though.... which means
|I'll never bother getting it at high rating, and will consequently never
|have a really powerful spirit buddy.

All right. Everyone can get conjuring! Happy?

It doesn't mean you can USE it for anything usefull though.....

|> |(I'm sure some of you have seen the episode out of Northern Exposure)
|>
|> Which one? Seen most of them... Don't remember a vision quest episode
|> though.
|>
|The amerindian guy (don't remember his name) goes looking for his parents
|identity, aided by a spirit that only he can see.

But Benton has his dad as well....
(And so does thingy.... The american one... His "Partner")
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:50:31 -0500
>All right. Everyone can get conjuring! Happy?
>
>It doesn't mean you can USE it for anything usefull though.....

There are only two useful things mundane conjuring can do:

1) You can bind a free spirit if you know it's name.
2) You can use your Conjuring Skill in place of any attribute when resisting
the powers of a spirit.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 28
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:50:08 -0500
Bleach asked:
> I've currently got an Amerindian Physical Adept.... he's fairly tribally
> oriented, being of the Soiux tribe (and predicably, an ex-Wildcat)
>
> Now, I want to get him initiated at some stage, and to fit with the whole
> idea of vision quests and other spiritual ideas, I wanted to get him an
> ally spirit as a spirit guide sort of thing.

Well (IMHO) there's a subtle difference between an ally spirit and a spirit
guide. I would certainly allow a shamanic/tribal physical adept in my
campaign to take the Vision Quest option in Awakenings for initiation and
essentially embark on an astral quest under the guidance of him totem or
guardian spirit. If the character doesn't have a totem as such he could be
guided by another sort of "spirit guide" summoned for the vision quest ritual
like an ancestor spirit or a guardian totem of his tribe (Wildcat, perhaps).
The spirit guides/teacher is part of the vision. I agree with whoever said to
use Sam Verner's interactions with Dog in SECERTS OF POWER as a decent model.
This spirit provides no real game advantage like an ally does, although the
spirit might be involved in teaching the adept new physad powers as he
initiates further (a good way to offer the adept powers you think he should
have and introduce new ones like the ones from Awakenings into the game, if
desired).

OTOH, I would be very leery about letting a physical adept summon an ally
spirit. Technically, it's again the rules (physads can't actively use
Conjuring), but I'd be willing to bend them a bit if the adept had a damn
good reason for wanting an ally and was willing to spend all of the Karma and
the Magic Point involved to get one. I DEFINITELY would not allow a physad to
take the Familiar ordeal and get an ally on the cheap along with his
initiation. That's bending the rules too much (IMHO).

Steve K.
Underworld Sourcebook, coming soon... (with cover by Fred Fields!)
Message no. 29
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:01:12 EST
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:50:08 -0500 Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
writes:

>Well (IMHO) there's a subtle difference between an ally spirit and a
>spirit guide. I would certainly allow a shamanic/tribal physical adept
in my
>campaign to take the Vision Quest option in Awakenings for initiation
and
>essentially embark on an astral quest under the guidance of him totem or
>guardian spirit. If the character doesn't have a totem as such he could
be
>guided by another sort of "spirit guide" summoned for the vision quest
>ritual like an ancestor spirit or a guardian totem of his tribe
(Wildcat, perhaps).
>The spirit guides/teacher is part of the vision. I agree with whoever
said to
>use Sam Verner's interactions with Dog in SECERTS OF POWER as a decent
>model.

I was of the opinion that the Sam Verner situaiton was pretty much HOW
Totems worked, that nearly all shamans interacted at that level with
their totem.

>Steve K.
>Underworld Sourcebook, coming soon... (with cover by Fred Fields!)
>

~Tim
Message no. 30
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:06:05 -0600
At 02:01 PM 2/20/97 EST, you wrote:
>I was of the opinion that the Sam Verner situaiton was pretty much HOW
>Totems worked, that nearly all shamans interacted at that level with
>their totem.

There was something in the Secrets of Power trilogy that had another
character amazed that Dog actually spoke to Verner. According to that
character, Dog's interaction with Sam was an uncommon thing. But
considering that Dog was trying to get Sam to stop another totem, it's
understandable to think that Dog would be that close to Sam the few times
they interacted.


Thomas Deeny
Infobahn Austin
512 320 0556
Message no. 31
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:25:13 -0700
> Caric wrote,
> >... Tribal medicine men were going on vision quests for hundreds of
> >years before the amakening ...
> and those medicine men are considered SR's shamans. Their
> relationship with spirits are different than those of warriors (your
> tribal PhysAd).
>
True, but my point is that they had no actual magical power according to SR
rules, where the physads that exist now at least have some touch of the
power.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 32
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:12:50 -0500
Caric wrote,
>True, but my point is that they had no actual magical power according to SR
>rules, where the physads that exist now at least have some touch of the
>power.

And how does that justify the ally spirit?


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 33
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:44:34 -0700
> Caric wrote,
> >True, but my point is that they had no actual magical power according to
SR
> >rules, where the physads that exist now at least have some touch of the
> >power.
>
> And how does that justify the ally spirit?

It doesn't I should have changed the subject line...what it justifies is
the "vision quest" I was discussing before...giving the physad the ability
under certain conditions to contact a "Totem" and get guidance and so
forth.


~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 34
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 02:44:31 -0500
> Caric wrote,
> MC23 wrote,
>> And how does that justify the ally spirit?
>
>It doesn't I should have changed the subject line...what it justifies is
>the "vision quest" I was discussing before...giving the physad the ability
>under certain conditions to contact a "Totem" and get guidance and so
>forth.
No gripes there.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 35
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits for Phs Ads.
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:08:09 +1000
> Well (IMHO) there's a subtle difference between an ally spirit and a spirit
> guide. I would certainly allow a shamanic/tribal physical adept in my
> campaign to take the Vision Quest option in Awakenings for initiation and
> essentially embark on an astral quest under the guidance of him totem or
> guardian spirit. If the character doesn't have a totem as such he could be
> guided by another sort of "spirit guide" summoned for the vision quest
ritual
> like an ancestor spirit or a guardian totem of his tribe (Wildcat, perhaps).

Fair enough... that's pretty much what I had in mind for the ally to do,
though I believe the Astral Gateway power would take a little bit of
fudging or GM discretion to do.

Hell, I won't get 'aid sorcery' or things like that, and it doesn't work
like a power focus for me, so I guess that the astral gatway would be a
good trade-off if I paid Karma for it.

Oh, and by the way; My character if an ex Sioux Special Forces
Wildcat (From NAN1).... not a Wildcat shaman or equivalent *grin*


> The spirit guides/teacher is part of the vision. I agree with whoever said to
> use Sam Verner's interactions with Dog in SECERTS OF POWER as a decent model.
> This spirit provides no real game advantage like an ally does, although the
> spirit might be involved in teaching the adept new physad powers as he
> initiates further (a good way to offer the adept powers you think he should
> have and introduce new ones like the ones from Awakenings into the game, if
> desired).
>

That's also what I was thinking; It makes a good Roleplaying basis for
my mode of initiation, especially since my character would never join an
initatory group (too much out of character)

I have to admit that i didn't like the way Verner interacted with his
totem in the Secrets of power trilogy, though I guess that could be
interpreted as his version of initation.

> OTOH, I would be very leery about letting a physical adept summon an ally
> spirit. Technically, it's again the rules (physads can't actively use
> Conjuring), but I'd be willing to bend them a bit if the adept had a damn
> good reason for wanting an ally and was willing to spend all of the Karma and
> the Magic Point involved to get one. I DEFINITELY would not allow a physad to
> take the Familiar ordeal and get an ally on the cheap along with his
> initiation. That's bending the rules too much (IMHO).
>

Thanks for the advice, Steve.... I just realised whose post I was
responding to... I guess you'd be pretty much the 'official' adjudicator
*grin*

BTW, my character has a tribal shaman as a contact, so I was going to get
him to provide assistance during the summoning of the ally (for a
suitably outrageous price)... it sort of edges around the fact that phys ads
can't actually summon spirits.

I guess this is the end of the thread; Thanks all for the ideas, etc.

Bleach

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