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Message no. 1
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:40:40 -0500
A few questions, to which I have my own answers, but which I am interested
in the List's opinions:

(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
suffer physical drain?

(2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?

(3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?

(4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
mage? Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to
the Ally spirit? How about Spell Locks?

(5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a variable
based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery to function as
a Power Focus, when I later activate the spell not in the presence of my
Ally Spirit, which Magic rating applies? (example: I have a spell lock of
Levitate Person with 7 successes. My Magic rating is 6, and I have a
Force 4 Ally Spirit. Under the rules for Aid Sorcery, my effective Magic
Rating becomes a 10, which would allow me to move 70m in one turn as
opposed to 42m in one turn.)

Quickened spells:

(1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?

(2) Can the Astral Concealment astral quest be used to make it more
difficult to ground a spell through a quickened spell, spell lock, or
foci? That is to say, if I am wearing the item, or the quickened spell is
quickened on me (i.e. Increased Intelligence +3), can I perform an Astral
Concealment quest to make it neccessary that someone wishing to ground a
spell through the item to me must also undertake the quest before the
spell can be grounded thusly?


Shapechange:

(1) If I use the Shapechange spell, what happens to foci or spell locks I
am carrying with me? If they are in the form of bracelets or necklaces
and the new form can wear them, can they still be active? Would a spell
lock in the form of a necklace break if the new form has an appendage
larger than the aperture? (i.e., a necklace on a man, shapechanged into a
tiger)?

Thanks for your replies :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit Shadowrun MUX: shadowrun.dnaco.net 4201
Message no. 2
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:13:02 +0500
On 28 Oct 97 at 15:40, Scott Roberts wrote:

> (1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?

Umm, Scott. Don't go there. Read the FAQ on this subject.

That is probably the calmest response you will get. I had to restrain
myself.

--
drekhead@***.net
++++
Sig file lost.
++++
Message no. 3
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:49:14 -0500
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Drekhead wrote:

> On 28 Oct 97 at 15:40, Scott Roberts wrote:
>
> > (1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?
>
> Umm, Scott. Don't go there. Read the FAQ on this subject.
>
> That is probably the calmest response you will get. I had to restrain
> myself.

Um...is it the FAQ at http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/shadowrn.html you're
talking about? I didn't see anything in it about this subject :( I
apologize if I've offended :(

Yes, I'm aware it's a debate that a lot of people have heard before (on
that particular issue); but it was meant as a lead-in to the questions
which followed.

Beat me with a dead carp, flame me, whatever, I don't particularly mind.
I'm not trying to make any waves, and of course you're free to ignore the
questions or what-have-you as you wish.

That passage in the Underworld sourcebook about Tattoo Magic and
Quickenings being grounded through is what prompted the debate's
re-opening in my mind, but that's relatively the most uninteresting
question in the list. I apologize if I've offended anyone's
sensibilities. :(

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:56:01 -0700
Scott Roberts wrote:
|
| (1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?

This is the unholly grail of Shadowrun. There never has been, and
never will be, consensus on this topic. Consider all replies to be
the sole opinion of the replier (this goes for you repliers too).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 5
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:00:06 PST
>From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>

>(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
>handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
>suffer physical drain?

It says they are disrupted if they suffer ANY stun,and destroyed for any
physical drain. I'd say they only take physical drain for spells over
thier force, as they are always "astal" in some way, and its thiernative
palne. The don't face the same problem as a mge chanelling mana without
his body as a buffer.

>
>(2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
>initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?

Wouldn't it bebased on force? No adjustment islisted, so
force+10+1d6 when manifest, F+20+1d6 in a-space. Alternately, it might
be based on theform you give them, but I'd say that is justa cosmetic
form, and has no impact on any stat.
Unless,perhaps, the Spirit has the "Inhabiting" power, In which case
I'd restrict them to an inititive equal to the hosts reaction (and
initiative dice!) plus its force. Reaction is, IMO, a physical stat.
A Hommunculous would have a "physical" reaction based on quickness and
intellegence- slower, but tougher.
>
>(3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?
>

GM call. It should get a magic pool, I guess. The power is
SORCERY, with all the uses that implies. Astral combat w/sorcery would
be weak without threat or astral combat pool... I'm leaning towards
pools.

A bigger question for me is, can the Mage give the ally spirit
acsess to his karma pool?

>(4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
>mage?

Sure. A physical spell, though, will not have anyhting to do if the
spirit is purelyastral, and will thus vanish.
What happens to a mana spell depends on your interpretation. You
can't susatain a spell in astral space, so doesthe spell drop if the
targetis purely astral, as would be the quickening? Id allow it- the
spell is given a "circuit" int astal space, and I don't see a reason for
that cicuit to dissapear.


>Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to the
>Ally spirit?

Doesn't say you can bond a focus for anybody but yourself, so no.

>How about Spell Locks?

You can place a spell lock onany valid target, so ifthe spirit is pesent
physically, sure. Once it goes purely astral, the spell lock loses
contact, falls off, and de-activates.

>(5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a variable
>based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery to function
as
>a Power Focus, when I later activate the spell not in the presence of
my
>Ally Spirit, which Magic rating applies? (example: I have a spell lock
of
>Levitate Person with 7 successes. My Magic rating is 6, and I have a
>Force 4 Ally Spirit. Under the rules for Aid Sorcery, my effective
Magic
>Rating becomes a 10, which would allow me to move 70m in one turn as
>opposed to 42m in one turn.)
>

GAAH. I'd say record the spellas cast, for simplicity if nothing else.
The spell isas strong as CREATED, and doesn't get weaker.

>Quickened spells:
>
>(1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?


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(Sure, but only if they are physical spells. Mike Mulvihil says so,
and he's always right. If he's not, He'll make it right in SR3. :)

>(2) Can the Astral Concealment astral quest be used to make it more
>difficult to ground a spell through a quickened spell, spell lock, or
>foci? That is to say, if I am wearing the item, or the quickened spell
is quickened on me (i.e. Increased Intelligence +3), can I perform an
Astral Concealment quest to make it neccessary that someone wishing to
ground a spell through the item to me must also undertake the quest
before the spell can be grounded thusly?

Its not a described effect of a concealment quest, so IMO, NO. If
the caster can see the Focus, quickening, whatever, he can use it to
ground. Now, MASKING can make that focus harder to see. Quickenings,
as active spells, are always visble.
A Concealmant quest makes *traking a link* harder, so if the focus
is ever lost, it will be tough to use to track you or for ritual
sorcery.
If a concealment quest were somehow used as part of the focuses or
quickenings CREATION, I'd say It might not have an obvious bridge to the
astral plane, and would opporate as you described, but I would make the
secret of performing such a quest very restricted knowledge. I'd keep
the quest rating faily high, Too. (enchanting / quickening TN can be
pretty low).
>
>
>Shapechange:
>
>(1) If I use the Shapechange spell, what happens to foci or spell locks
I am carrying with me? If they are in the form of bracelets or
necklaces and the new form can wear them, can they still be active?
Would a spell lock in the form of a necklace break if the new form has
an appendage larger than the aperture? (i.e., a necklace on a man,
shapechanged into a tiger)?

Sure, that all sound reasonable. You could even IMPLANT the focus, or
enchant some cyber you were gonna get anyhow, if it were suitable. Then
you'd have no problem.

MONGOOSE

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Message no. 6
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:15:06 -0500
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Mon goose wrote:

> >From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
>
> >(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
> >handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
> >suffer physical drain?
>
> It says they are disrupted if they suffer ANY stun,and destroyed for any
> physical drain. I'd say they only take physical drain for spells over
> thier force, as they are always "astal" in some way, and its thiernative
> palne. The don't face the same problem as a mge chanelling mana without
> his body as a buffer.

it says they are disrupted if they suffer ANY stun? Where does it say
that? (not doubting, mind you--just not sure where it would say that, if
you could help, that's great). Disrupted if they suffer even an L wound
seems bad :(

> >(2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
> >initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?
>
> Wouldn't it bebased on force? No adjustment islisted, so
> force+10+1d6 when manifest, F+20+1d6 in a-space. Alternately, it might
> be based on theform you give them, but I'd say that is justa cosmetic
> form, and has no impact on any stat.

Normally I would agree with this, but the game makes it important that the
stats of an ally spirit are based on the force, points allocated in
its generation as part of the formula. (at least physical attributes).
And other spirit types have reaction attributes that are often modified by
the spirit type. I was just curious how the reaction attribute, rather
than the initiative, would be determined.

> Unless,perhaps, the Spirit has the "Inhabiting" power, In which case
> I'd restrict them to an inititive equal to the hosts reaction (and
> initiative dice!) plus its force. Reaction is, IMO, a physical stat.
> A Hommunculous would have a "physical" reaction based on quickness and
> intellegence- slower, but tougher.
> >

This, I agree with.

> >(3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?
> >
>
> GM call. It should get a magic pool, I guess. The power is
> SORCERY, with all the uses that implies. Astral combat w/sorcery would
> be weak without threat or astral combat pool... I'm leaning towards
> pools.
>
> A bigger question for me is, can the Mage give the ally spirit
> acsess to his karma pool?
>
That's a good question, and I would lean towards no, since the ally spirit
isn't the mage and doesn't have the mage's "karma". OTOH, I've been
thinking--since often mages use their ally spirits to do things
independantly--of giving karma to ally spirits instead of the mage for
certain tasks, but this brings up its own can of worms.


> >(4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
> >mage?
>
> Sure. A physical spell, though, will not have anyhting to do if the
> spirit is purelyastral, and will thus vanish.
> What happens to a mana spell depends on your interpretation. You
> can't susatain a spell in astral space, so doesthe spell drop if the
> targetis purely astral, as would be the quickening? Id allow it- the
> spell is given a "circuit" int astal space, and I don't see a reason for
> that cicuit to dissapear.
>

Mmm...okay, so a spell of Type: Physical would not work. Why would it
neccessarily go away, however?

>
> >Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to the
> >Ally spirit?
>
> Doesn't say you can bond a focus for anybody but yourself, so no.
>
> >How about Spell Locks?
>
> You can place a spell lock onany valid target, so ifthe spirit is pesent
> physically, sure. Once it goes purely astral, the spell lock loses
> contact, falls off, and de-activates.
>

But the lock would still be bound to the spirit, I presume, needing only
to have the spirit re-pick-it-up-and-activate-it?

> >(5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a variable
> >based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery to function
> as
> >a Power Focus, when I later activate the spell not in the presence of
> my
> >Ally Spirit, which Magic rating applies? (example: I have a spell lock
> of
> >Levitate Person with 7 successes. My Magic rating is 6, and I have a
> >Force 4 Ally Spirit. Under the rules for Aid Sorcery, my effective
> Magic
> >Rating becomes a 10, which would allow me to move 70m in one turn as
> >opposed to 42m in one turn.)
> >
>
> GAAH. I'd say record the spellas cast, for simplicity if nothing else.
> The spell isas strong as CREATED, and doesn't get weaker.
>
Yeah, I know...scary, ain't it? :) I ask because I have a character with
the example spell on him, and I wasn't sure whether or not it was done
accurately.

> >Quickened spells:
> >
> >(1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?
>
*snip* Again, I didn't see this in the FAQ I read. Sorry.

> (Sure, but only if they are physical spells. Mike Mulvihil says so,
> and he's always right. If he's not, He'll make it right in SR3. :)
(and Paul Hume, Grimoire author, says they can't be grounded through. But
the Underworld Sourcebook, under the section on Tattoo Magic, seems to
imply that quickened spells can be grounded through. I hope they answer
this in SR 3 too. :))

>
> >(2) Can the Astral Concealment astral quest be used to make it more
> >difficult to ground a spell through a quickened spell, spell lock, or
> >foci? That is to say, if I am wearing the item, or the quickened spell
> is quickened on me (i.e. Increased Intelligence +3), can I perform an
> Astral Concealment quest to make it neccessary that someone wishing to
> ground a spell through the item to me must also undertake the quest
> before the spell can be grounded thusly?
>
> Its not a described effect of a concealment quest, so IMO, NO. If
> the caster can see the Focus, quickening, whatever, he can use it to
> ground. Now, MASKING can make that focus harder to see. Quickenings,
> as active spells, are always visble.
> A Concealmant quest makes *traking a link* harder, so if the focus
> is ever lost, it will be tough to use to track you or for ritual
> sorcery.
> If a concealment quest were somehow used as part of the focuses or
> quickenings CREATION, I'd say It might not have an obvious bridge to the
> astral plane, and would opporate as you described, but I would make the
> secret of performing such a quest very restricted knowledge. I'd keep
> the quest rating faily high, Too. (enchanting / quickening TN can be
> pretty low).

Tracking a link--wouldn't you have to track the active link in order to
ground through it? Or are we speaking of the link when it isn't active?
As a game-balancing method to make Quickened spells (presuming you rule
that they can be grounded through--please bear with me on this) more
useful, I would propose that you would be able to do this.

By and large, it doesn't really do anything except two things--(1) make it
impossible for non-initiates to ground through any hung spells, and (2)
make it as difficult to ground through the spell or item for an initiate
as it was for the caster to quest in the first place. Since an astral
quest takes no time, it wouldn't make it any big shakes for a mage to do a
quick-rolled quest in most circumstances--unless the quest rating was
huge, but in that case, the caster/focus-wearer has already taken the risk
to get the reward of making it more difficult for his enemies. Or hers.

"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:25:47 +0000
On 28 Oct 97, Scott Roberts disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> (1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do
> they handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form,
> do they suffer physical drain?

Read the book. ;>
It says that if they don't reduce the drain to 0, they're disrupted.
Nasty, huh?

> (2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
> initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?

Umm... Just like a normal spirit...

> (3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?

Nope. Unless it's an NPC AS, that is. ;P

> (4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an
> Initiate mage? Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage
> bonds the foci to the Ally spirit? How about Spell Locks?

Yes, no, no. IMHO. Spirits can't use foci or spell locks... OTOH,
perhaps they could. (I know I'm being a great help... <sheepish
grin>)

> (5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a
> variable based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery

I'd rule the "when casting" MA is used.

> (1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?

THWAP. Read the faquing FAQ. Err... Fragging FAQ... Whatever. ;P

> (1) If I use the Shapechange spell, what happens to foci or spell
> locks I am carrying with me? If they are in the form of bracelets
> or necklaces and the new form can wear them, can they still be
> active? Would a spell lock in the form of a necklace break if the
> new form has an appendage larger than the aperture? (i.e., a
> necklace on a man, shapechanged into a tiger)?

Foci are not different from normal equipment. Why should they be? So,
if you're wearing a necklace and shapechange into a tiger, say bye to
yer focus. Unless, of course, it's made of rubber... ;>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Give peace a aah-argh!
Message no. 8
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:30:45 PST
>Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Mon goose wrote:
>
>> >From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
>>
>> >(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do
they handle drain?
>it says they are disrupted if they suffer ANY stun? Where does it say
that?

Top of P.69, Grimoire II-thats the last paragraph of the sorecery power
section.

>> >(2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative?

>> Wouldn't it be based on force?

>Normally I would agree with this, but the game makes it important that
the stats of an ally spirit are based on the force, points allocated in
its generation as part of the formula. (at least physical attributes).

So treat reaction as any other physical attributte, but it starts at
force?

>> A bigger question for me is, can the Mage give the ally spirit
>> acsess to his karma pool?
>>
>That's a good question, and I would lean towards no, since the ally
spirit isn't the mage and doesn't have the mage's "karma". OTOH, I've
been thinking--since often mages use their ally spirits to do things
>independantly--of giving karma to ally spirits instead of the mage for
certain tasks, but this brings up its own can of worms.

I'll say. They are NOT free spirits! Unless normal sprits get acess to
amages karma, I'd say the ally doesn't either.
>
>
>> >(4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an
Initiate mage?

>Mmm...okay, so a spell of Type: Physical would not work. Why would it
neccessarily go away, however?

Because it has no "target". When a mage is sustaining a spell, and the
target leaves LOS, the spell drops. It does notgo back on if the target
re-apears. I Extrapolated- Its your call

>> >How about Spell Locks?

>But the lock would still be bound to the spirit, I presume, needing
only
>to have the spirit re-pick-it-up-and-activate-it?
>
No, the lock is bound to the MAGE who spent the karma. The ally spirit
would not be able to turn it on or off, not being a mage of the same
tradition. As a less literal solution, sure, the spirit can use the
mages locks, as they areBOTH boundto him. But then any other spirit
probaly could, too.

> spell is quickened on me (i.e. Increased Intelligence +3)
As a mans spell, no problem.

>Tracking a link--wouldn't you have to track the active link in order
>to ground through it? Or are we speaking of the link when it isn't
>active?

There is a differnece between a RITUAL link and a suitable "link"
for grounding. Any bound focus serves as a ritual link for ritual
sorcery. Any ACTIVE focus creates a "bridge" from astral to physical
that a spell cast at the focus can ground through. No "link" is
involved in targeting the spell.

>As a game-balancing method to make Quickened spells (presuming you rule
that they can be grounded through--please bear with me on this) more
useful, I would propose that you would be able to do this.
>

We've NEVER used quickening. Its powerful and cheap, so we make it
risky. Nobody has even used a quickened mana spell,that we don't allow
grounding through. Guess I'm not the one to ask on thier actual impact
on play.


(2)
>make it as difficult to ground through the spell or item for an
initiate as it was for the caster to quest in the first place.

Thatis a BIG advantageto the quickening mage- dropping unconciuos/ near
dead in your home base while quickening a spell is not a big deal. The
same thing in astral combat IS.

>Since an astral
>quest takes no time, it wouldn't make it any big shakes for a mage to
>do a quick-rolled quest in most circumstances--unless the quest >rating
was huge.

Have you run many "dice only" quests? A few bad die rolls can HAMMER
you. Go to a place with a high drain, or even a low one that you get
few dice for, and you facing a few automatic boxes of stun or PHYSICAL.
Even if you do well, you likely use up a good chunk of your Karama pool.
Notthe thing do do in theheat of battle just to kill a mages spells.

MONGOOSE



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Message no. 9
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:17:36 -0500
>>Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to the
>>Ally spirit?
>
>Doesn't say you can bond a focus for anybody but yourself, so no.
Actually, I believe in the enchanting rules, the enchanter can pay the
bonding cost for whoever the first user of the focus is. Now it's up to us
to decide if a spirit can use a focus, to which I would say probably not...
Ot's an aspect of magic that is odd, it rewuires a human body to be bound
to (they're only astrally active when on your body and activated).


losthalo
Message no. 10
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:57:12 -0500
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:40:40 -0500 Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
writes:

<<A few questions, to which I have my own answers, but which I am
interested in the List's opinions:>>


Really? In our opinions? <<INSERT_evil_laughter>>



<<(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
suffer physical drain?>>


They suffer drain exactly the way a normal magician does. If they take
Stun damage from it, they are disrupted. If they take Physical damage ...
well, let's just say that it's time for you to start saving Karma for a
new familiar.



<<(2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?>>


Hmmm...I'd go with making the spirit's base reaction equal to Force, then
modifying it as normal for spirits (+20 in the astral, +10 in the real
world)



<<(3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?>>


GM's discretion, I suppose. It isn't really stated anywhere I know of, so
I'd just handle that the way you do for other PC-summoned spirits.


<<(4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
mage? Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to
the Ally spirit? How about Spell Locks?>>


Quickened Spells: There's nothing that says you can't, so I'd say yes.
Foci: There's not anything which would deny the possibility (AFAIK), but
I would doubt it.
Spell Locks: I would think that you could lock a spell targeted on the
ally, yes.


<<(5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a variable
based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery to function
as a Power Focus, when I later activate the spell not in the presence of
my Ally Spirit, which Magic rating applies? (example: I have a spell
lock of Levitate Person with 7 successes. My Magic rating is 6, and I
have a Force 4 Ally Spirit. Under the rules for Aid Sorcery, my
effective Magic Rating becomes a 10, which would allow me to move 70m in
one turn as opposed to 42m in one turn.)>>


I would think that it would be your current Magic Rating (as opposed to
the one you had when you cast the spell). If I were feeling especially
evil, I could rule that, because you aren't the one maintaining the
astral conduit while the spell is locked, the effective Magic Rating is
the rating of the lock<EGMG>


<<Quickened spells:>>


Uh-oh


<<(1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?>>


The jury's still out. FASA has told us that this is something that will
be resolved in SR3. For now, simply assume that if you can ground through
a sustained spell (there are different interpretations as to whether or
not and how you could about doing that), you can ground through a
quickened one. If you're really interested, check the list archives
(ftp://listserv.itribe.net, just root around in there somewhere, you'll
find them), where you will undoubtedly find discussions/arguments/flame
wars on the subject that occur with a frequency of somewhere between 3
and 4 times a year.



<<(2) Can the Astral Concealment astral quest be used to make it more
difficult to ground a spell through a quickened spell, spell lock, or
foci? That is to say, if I am wearing the item, or the quickened spell
is quickened on me (i.e. Increased Intelligence +3), can I perform an
Astral Concealment quest to make it neccessary that someone wishing to
ground a spell through the item to me must also undertake the quest
before the spell can be grounded thusly?>>


If they can't see it, they can't ground through it, can they?



<<Shapechange:

(1) If I use the Shapechange spell, what happens to foci or spell locks I
am carrying with me? If they are in the form of bracelets or necklaces
and the new form can wear them, can they still be active? Would a spell
lock in the form of a necklace break if the new form has an appendage
larger than the aperture? (i.e., a necklace on a man, shapechanged into a
tiger)?>>


The bracelets, necklaces, et al would remain on your shape-changed body,
so long as the body part they happened to be on didn't get begger around
than their own circumference. If that happens, necklaces may break (or
strangle you, depending) and bracelets will likely do a great job of
cutting off circulation to your hand/paw/flipper/etc.



1519:)

--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:11:59 +0100
Scott Roberts said on 17:15/28 Oct 97...

> it says they are disrupted if they suffer ANY stun? Where does it say
> that? (not doubting, mind you--just not sure where it would say that, if
> you could help, that's great). Disrupted if they suffer even an L wound
> seems bad :(

The Grimoire page 69. In essence, it comes down to severely restricting
ally spirits' access to sorcery skill, and especially to heavy-Drain
spells. The only ally I've had played in a campaign I ran only got L- and
M-drain spells from its summoner.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:11:58 +0100
Scott Roberts said on 15:40/28 Oct 97...

> (1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
> handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
> suffer physical drain?

On page 69 of the Grimoire, it says they follow all normal rules for
sorcery, including drain. Since there is no mention of them _not_ taking
physical drain when astrally projecting, it's safe to assume they do.
However, casting a spell that can cause physical drain is pretty much
suicidal...

> (2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
> initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?

Calculating it as for characters would be best, I think. On the physical
plane that Quickness + Intelligence / 2, +10 for being physically
manifest, while on the astral plane it would be equal to Intelligence +
20. Add 1D6 to determine total initiative, of course.

> (3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?

If the GM uses dice pools for NPCs, then the spirit should have dice
pools, IMHO, else it has a Threat Rating.

> (4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
> mage? Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to
> the Ally spirit? How about Spell Locks?

I don't see why you can't quicken spells on the spirit, or put a spell
lock onto them, however keep in mind that non-permanent magic has no
effect on the astral plane -- that includes sustained spells, spell locks,
and other things. As for giveng an ally a focus... I'm not sure if I'd
allow that, since the _user_ has to bond it. Unless the spirit has Karma I
don't think I'd allow it.

> (5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a variable
> based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery to function as
> a Power Focus, when I later activate the spell not in the presence of my
> Ally Spirit, which Magic rating applies? (example: I have a spell lock of
> Levitate Person with 7 successes. My Magic rating is 6, and I have a
> Force 4 Ally Spirit. Under the rules for Aid Sorcery, my effective Magic
> Rating becomes a 10, which would allow me to move 70m in one turn as
> opposed to 42m in one turn.)

I'd say the Magic Rating that was in effect when the spell was locked.
Else if you'd nail the lock to a mundane, it wouldn't do anything at all
seeing that the current user has a Magic Rating of 0. (I know that the
lock isn't bonded to the mundane, so this isn't an entirely valid
reasoning, BTW.)

> Quickened spells:
>
> (1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?

This is not common knowledge, but there is an eleventh commandment in the
bible. It reads: "Thou shalt not ask about grounding through quickened
spells."

> Shapechange:
>
> (1) If I use the Shapechange spell, what happens to foci or spell locks I
> am carrying with me? If they are in the form of bracelets or necklaces
> and the new form can wear them, can they still be active? Would a spell
> lock in the form of a necklace break if the new form has an appendage
> larger than the aperture? (i.e., a necklace on a man, shapechanged into a
> tiger)?

Shapechange only affects the person, not clothing or equipment; spell
locks and other foci are equipment IMO so they don't transform. And if the
new form is somehow too large, I say the equipment will break or rip,
yes...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:25:26 +0000
And verily, did Scott Roberts hastily scribble thusly...
|
|A few questions, to which I have my own answers, but which I am interested
|in the List's opinions:
|
|(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
|handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
|suffer physical drain?

Drain? Why would they want to suffer drain?
One of the things about spirits that can cast spells is, they don't.

|(3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?

Threat rating, yes. Pools? Don't thing so....

|(4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
|mage? Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to
|the Ally spirit? How about Spell Locks?

???? Hmmmm......

|(1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?

AAARGH!!!


##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #


##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

Sorry... Bit of a knee jerk reaction there...

All I can possibly do now is shout at you in a loud and angry voice...

READ THE FRAGGIN FAQ!!!!!

There... That felt better...


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:46:50 +0000
And verily, did John E Pederson hastily scribble thusly...
|<<(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
|handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
|suffer physical drain?>>
|
|
|They suffer drain exactly the way a normal magician does. If they take
|Stun damage from it, they are disrupted. If they take Physical damage ...
|well, let's just say that it's time for you to start saving Karma for a
|new familiar.

Eh? Oh... I must've been thinking of free-spirits....
|
|
|1519:)

Is that REALLY necessary?

:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 15
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:37:21 GMT
Scott Roberts writes

> A few questions, to which I have my own answers, but which I am interested
> in the List's opinions:
>
Here goes!! Still it might help kill off the List dates thread and
get a few folks back on Topic.

> (1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
> handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
> suffer physical drain?
>
I would have to check the rules but it would seem logical that as the
astral is thier home they only take physical drain for spells with
force ratings over thier force.
Yes i believe they do take drain, i think its only some types of free
spirit that don't take drain for spellcasting

> (2) What is an Ally Spirit's initiative? Is it figured as Astral
> initiative (using Astral Quickness), or as Q + I / 2?
>
I would have expected it's reaction + 10 or 20 +1D6. reac equalling
force (its a given not calculated attribute for spirits)
For spirits locked in an inhabited form though calculated as some
have suggested might be better.

> (3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?
>
Would seem best to give it its dice pools, magic from sorcery and
work out its combat pool. NPC's ones could get threat ratings, GM's
choice. It doesn't have a karma pool AFAIK, though allowing it to
access the magicians karma pool if he/she's about or allowing the
magician to transfer pool karma to a pool for the spirit might be an
idea.

> (4) Can you Quicken spells on your Ally spirit if you are an Initiate
> mage?
I say yes, and as the spirits natural form is astral you quicken them
to its astral body, hence they stay when it goes full atral and
affect its astral statistics. The primart reason for allowing this is
that it allows you to build an ally spirit that stand a hope in hell
of surviving in a combat situation involving initiated characters
otherwise the first decent area effect attack to hit the party while
its about and no more ally (a bit harsh for something that can cost
upwards of 50 karma!)

> Can Ally spirits use foci if the summoning mage bonds the foci to
> the Ally spirit? How about Spell Locks?
>
I would say just fine till it goes full astral (note you may have to
use first bonding ie make the foci for the spirit yourslef to allow
you to pay the costs), quickenings don't have a physical component,
foci do so if the spirit goes full astral the physical part of the
spell lock(or whatever) falls to the ground, breaks the link and
thats it.
Effectively therefore not unless the spirit inhabits a form
permanently.

> (5) If I cast a spell into a Spell Lock or Quickening with a variable
> based on Magic Attribute while my Ally is using Aid Sorcery to function as
> a Power Focus, when I later activate the spell not in the presence of my
> Ally Spirit, which Magic rating applies?
I would say that at the time of casting.
You get lots of problems with long running locks otherwise, what
happens when the magicans magic goes up! thanks initiation, takes a
deadly wound etc.
For a playable game i rule that all but detection spells (come back
to them) function at the successes range etc determined when they are
cast if put in spell locks, the effects are determined on casting the
lock merely sustains the spell. Ie you don't have to recalculate inc
reflexes and armour spells etc if the background count level changes,
it bogs the game down and would lead to 'i'm not going in there -
dead adventure' situations if the mages inc refelexes went down in a
combat orientated run and the sammies wired 3 didn't.

For detection spells, eg detect enemies i do recacluale for
background count effects on TN. But assume magic etc is unchanged, so
detecting enemies in the presence of astral static spells and such
like can be difficult.

Yes this does mean that things like detect enemies should be recast
and locked everytime your initiation grade has risen 2-3 levels in
order to take advantage of the raised magic attribute and at cost in
karma.

Related point : i personally don't increase ranges of spells, areas
of effect etc for power foci, SR2 only specifically states you
getting a few things (magic pool, cast bigger spells for stun drain
and dice you may add to a spell from your magic pool). This has
disadvantage for the caster but sometimes advantages (like its bad
enough casting area effect spells as it is if you are initiated
without killing your team mates without ANOTHER 6M on the radius for
that power focus!)

> Quickened spells:
>
> (1) Can Quickened spells be grounded through?
>
If memory serves the consensus was NO. Due to no physical component.

This has been debated at length and short of FASA putting a
definitive answer in print in either SR3 (unlikely as quickening is
part of the advanced rules and like SR2 stuff like that will be left
for the Grimoire) or the new 'big book of magic' (which i get the
impression is still at the 'do we make it another awakenings with new
stuff and more rules clarifications of a Grimoire 3' stage of
development) there really isn't much point actually discussing this
as it is very easy to find 101 arguements for both sides and there
are FASA line developer quotes 'definitively supporting both' thanks
folks asking many times and the line developer being far too busy
(improving SR / getting new stuff out) to reread SR2 and GR2 ten times
with a fine comb to sort the answer out.

If you want more check the logs, we'll see you again next year :)

> (2) Can the Astral Concealment astral quest be used to make it more
> difficult to ground a spell through a quickened spell, spell lock, or
> foci? That is to say, if I am wearing the item, or the quickened spell is
> quickened on me (i.e. Increased Intelligence +3), can I perform an Astral
> Concealment quest to make it neccessary that someone wishing to ground a
> spell through the item to me must also undertake the quest before the
> spell can be grounded thusly?
>
No i don't think so, you can stop them tracing the link to you but as
its on you that doesn't help much. I allow folks to mask quickened
spells (they are not much use if you have to declare to all and
sundry 'hey i'm an initiate' all over the astral plane by having them
visibile on your aura, its the magicial equivalent of waltzing in the
bar in security armour or carrying a panther cannon depending on the
spell).

Remember you can pump more karma into quickened spells to toughen
them up if required. On this point and grouding i must recheck that
Underworld sourcebook comment but i thought the advantage of tatoo
magic was it doubled the effective force for astral combat, hence
although not subtle keeping the karma cost of a quickening on a
mundane tough enough to fight off nearly all commers within reason
(eg force 4 spell, throw in the max 8 karma to quicken fights in
astral combat as a force 16! rather than force 8 [which is quite
destroyable though force 16 is not])

>
> Shapechange:
>
> (1) If I use the Shapechange spell, what happens to foci or spell locks I
> am carrying with me? If they are in the form of bracelets or necklaces
> and the new form can wear them, can they still be active?
no problem.

> Would a spell
> lock in the form of a necklace break if the new form has an appendage
> larger than the aperture? (i.e., a necklace on a man, shapechanged into a
> tiger)?
Either that or you strangle yourself, break your wrist etc (if the
bracelet is stronger), conversly they might just fall off. Note that
spell locks that are broaches etc and bonded will actually 'stick' to
the target anyway so those are fine.

Otherwise much as cloathes, shapechange is a very good spell but you
have to be just a little carefull how you use it or probelms can
ensue and it has a most fun habbit of resulting in naked characters
running about if you get it wrong :)

Mark
Message no. 16
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:25:54 -0500
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:46:50 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:

>|1519:)
>
>Is that REALLY necessary?
>
>:)


Probably not. But it helps me keep track of which message number I'm on:)
I suppose that if I add in the messages since Oct 10, I'm actually up to
1565:)
I really am tryng to avoid inflating my total this way, though:)

--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 17
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:55:46 -0800
At 12:11 PM 10/29/97, Gurth wrote:
>Scott Roberts said on 17:15/28 Oct 97...
>
>> it says they are disrupted if they suffer ANY stun? Where does it say
>> that? (not doubting, mind you--just not sure where it would say that, if
>> you could help, that's great). Disrupted if they suffer even an L wound
>> seems bad :(
>
>The Grimoire page 69. In essence, it comes down to severely restricting
>ally spirits' access to sorcery skill, and especially to heavy-Drain
>spells. The only ally I've had played in a campaign I ran only got L- and
>M-drain spells from its summoner.


IMHO by reading that rule (and the way we've always played) allies are not
disrupted if they take L stun from drain. The rule under sorcery refers
back to the general rule on disruption, which says if a spirit is 'killed'
by stun (I'm assuming that means 10 boxes) it is disrupted.

That rule can be read either way (in Shadowrun? Go figure!) but I feel that
whipping up something that costs a drekload of Karma and a point of magic
should be a little tougher than L Stun.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"I'm not a wuss, I just don't want to shoot the bunny."

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-
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:07:40 +0100
Spike said on 11:25/29 Oct 97...

> |(1) Ally Spirits: Ally spirits possess the Sorcery power. How do they
> |handle drain? If they are casting while in their astral form, do they
> |suffer physical drain?
>
> Drain? Why would they want to suffer drain?
> One of the things about spirits that can cast spells is, they don't.

Perhaps that's the case in first edition *rummages around to find first-ed
Grimthingy* No, there allies are sensitive to drain as well (page 83, or
page 69 in the second edition of the book).

> |(3) Does an Ally Spirit have any pools at all, or threat ratings?
>
> Threat rating, yes. Pools? Don't thing so....

Depends on how the GM wants to play the ally, I'd say.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:07:41 +0100
David R. Lowe said on 9:55/29 Oct 97...

> IMHO by reading that rule (and the way we've always played) allies are not
> disrupted if they take L stun from drain. The rule under sorcery refers
> back to the general rule on disruption, which says if a spirit is 'killed'
> by stun (I'm assuming that means 10 boxes) it is disrupted.
>
> That rule can be read either way (in Shadowrun? Go figure!) but I feel that
> whipping up something that costs a drekload of Karma and a point of magic
> should be a little tougher than L Stun.

I don't see how it can be read in two ways: "If allies suffer Stun damage
from normal Drain, they are disrupted". That looks pretty simple to me:
ANY Stun damage, whether one box or ten, will disrupt the ally. It doesn't
say "If allies go unconscious from Stun damage suffered through Drain
...", in which case I'd agree with you.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 20
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ally Spirits, Quickenings, and Shapechange
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:18:32 +0000
|Perhaps that's the case in first edition *rummages around to find first-ed
|Grimthingy* No, there allies are sensitive to drain as well (page 83, or
|page 69 in the second edition of the book).

I know...
I think I was confusing them with Free Spirits...
(They have no drain on spells.... I think....)

--
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|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Further Reading

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Thwap!