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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:00:43 -0700 (MST)
Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to grahamdrew, at 14:20 on 13 Mar 99, the word on
/ the street was...
/
/ > I was leafing through VR 2.0 and I happ4ened upon the "Condition Montor
/ > Table) on page 124. It says that you fill in 1 box for light, 2 for
/ > mod, 3 for serious, and 6 for a deadly. I thought that sounded odd so I
/ > checked a standard condition monitor and that's 1/3/6/10.
/
/ I've always regarded that 1/2/3/6 thing as a typo; there is no mention
/ anywhere (except in the bit you're referring to) that decking would use
/ different wound levels. I'm pretty sure that if it did, it would have been
/ mentioned explicitly in the text near the table on page 124.

On the other hand, it got my mind whirling :)

Thought of an additional way to reflect possible damage for teeny
weapons and big weapons.

Let's call regular weapons which do 1/3/6/10 Class II weapons.

Weapons which really don't do much damage at all could be Class I
weapons which would have a damage track of 1/2/3/4.

And then there are the big Class III weapons which have a damage track
of 2/6/12/20.

Just more of my musings, take em or leave em :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
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Message no. 2
From: kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:10:51 -0000
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:00:43 David Buehrer wrote:

<Snip>

>Thought of an additional way to reflect possible damage for teeny
>weapons and big weapons.

<More Snip>

>Just more of my musings, take em or leave em :)

A nice idea, but I'm of the school that it's easier to design new rules around working
existing game mechanics as much as possible, so I would adjust the damage codes of the
weapons themselves if I wanted to change how much damage they did.

BTW: I too think this entry was a typo (the incorrect damage code values in VR 2.0).

>-David B.

Justin


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Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:23:43 -0700 (MST)
shadowrn-admin@*********.org wrote:
/
/ On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:00:43 David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ <Snip>
/
/ >Thought of an additional way to reflect possible damage for teeny
/ >weapons and big weapons.
/
/ <More Snip>
/
/ >Just more of my musings, take em or leave em :)
/
/ A nice idea, but I'm of the school that it's easier to design new
/ rules around working existing game mechanics as much as possible, so I
/ would adjust the damage codes of the weapons themselves if I wanted to
/ change how much damage they did.

You're probably right. Like I said, it was just a thought :)

However, it prompted memories of James Bond 007 the RPG.

In SR I've always been annoyed that the big guns (like the PAC) really
can't out and out kill a character.

The 007 damage rules were similar to SR rules in that it was damn hard
to kill a character outright with your basic weapons. And then there
was the machine gun :) It had a x2 multiplier for it's damage.
However, the x2 didn't multiply the amount of damage you took, it
multiplied the number of wounds you took.

If you did this in SR the PAC might be listed as (and I'm fudging
numbers because I don't have my book handy) 18Dx2. Meaning that if
you're hit by a PAC you have to make two damage resistance tests vs two
Deadly wounds.

I'd suggest applying the attacker's successes to the first wound only.

Does that intrigue you? :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
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Message no. 4
From: kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:46:27 -0000
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:23:43 David Buehrer wrote:

<SNIP>

>You're probably right. Like I said, it was just a thought :)

Thoughts are good. The alternative isn't pretty. ;)

<Snip of more thoughts>

>Does that intrigue you? :)

Not really. ;) See, to me 18D IS darned deadly. Especially since I allow overflow
damage (ala Fields of Fire and some other variations). You CAN be outright killed by 18D
damage if you allow overflow without modifying any other rules (other than adding the
overflow rules - which would apply to all weapons).

I just love simple mechanics which allow lots of realism. :)

>-David B.

Justin


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Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:03:40 -0700 (MST)
shadowrn-admin@*********.org wrote:
/
/ See, to me 18D IS darned deadly. Especially since I allow overflow
/ damage (ala Fields of Fire and some other variations). You CAN be
/ outright killed by 18D damage if you allow overflow without modifying
/ any other rules (other than addin/ g the overflow rules - which would
/ apply to all weapons).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even with the overflow rules if a
character shoots another character with a PAC and the only get one
success, and the person who was hit fails their damage resistance test,
then the person hit takes a Deadly wound (10 boxes of damage) and is
unconscious. They aren't bleeding and they aren't dying.

IMH_O_ a person shot with a PAC who fails their damage resistance test
should be dead or dying.

Sorry, but this is one of those subjects that sets me off a little :)

/ I just love simple mechanics which allow lots of realism. :)

Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one ;)

I'm with you on the simple mechanics. I just recently scrapped a bunch
of house rules because they were to complex.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
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Message no. 6
From: kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:26:12 -0000
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:03:40 David Buehrer wrote:

<Snip>

>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even with the overflow rules if a
>character shoots another character with a PAC and the only get one
>success, and the person who was hit fails their damage resistance test,
>then the person hit takes a Deadly wound (10 boxes of damage) and is
>unconscious. They aren't bleeding and they aren't dying.

Whenever anyone takes a Deadly physical wound, they are bleeding and on their way to death
(if they bleed out). That is standard SRII rules (not sure about SR3). Overflow rules
simply allow you to fill in some or all of the overflow boxes of damage at the time the
wound is taken, thus you can instantly be killed. Game over. No more quarters. Read FoF
for more information. Although I don't use their particular overflow rules, they will
give you a better idea of what I am talking about. The basic gist is that you can stage
damage beyond Deadly. Thus, a lot of successes with even a small weapon can kill someone
instantly.

With a TN of 18 to resist, it's easy to fail your Body roll (even after a reasonable
amount of armor). Thus, even one success on the attacker's part will allow for the victim
to be bleeding to death if he/she/it is unable to roll a high Body test. A more skilled
attacker will turn the victim into paste.

>IMH_O_ a person shot with a PAC who fails their damage resistance test
>should be dead or dying.

Per above, the standard rules state that anyone who takes a Deadly physical wound is
bleeding and will continue to bleed to death if not treated. See above for more details
on instant death, etc.

>Sorry, but this is one of those subjects that sets me off a little :)

No problem. Just read FoF. It is an excellent sourcebook (probably my favorite) and has
lots of nice optional rules (even if some of them require a little tweaking).

>> just love simple mechanics which allow lots of realism. :)

>Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one ;)

Nah. Think of it as a goal, not an oxymoron. ;) Overflow damage rules are very easy to
implement (mine are even simpler than those in FoF), apply across the board (thus, there
are no exceptions to rememmber), and are easy to learn. All in all, a very simple
adjustment which makes a much needed difference. There you have it. Simple game
mechanics and lots more realism. Tah dah! :)

>I'm with you on the simple mechanics. I just recently scrapped a bunch
>of house rules because they were to complex.

Been there. Still doing that.

>-David B.

Justin


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Message no. 7
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:33:42 -0600
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:23:43 -0700 (MST) David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.carl.org> writes:
<SNIP>
>However, it prompted memories of James Bond 007 the RPG.
>
>In SR I've always been annoyed that the big guns (like the PAC) really
>can't out and out kill a character.
>
<SNIP RPG, Bond RPG descript.>
>
>If you did this in SR the PAC might be listed as (and I'm fudging
>numbers because I don't have my book handy) 18Dx2. Meaning that if
>you're hit by a PAC you have to make two damage resistance tests vs two
>Deadly wounds.
>
>I'd suggest applying the attacker's successes to the first wound
>only.
>
>Does that intrigue you? :)

Why not keep with the current (optional) rules and instead of 18Dx2 make
it 18D+4 (ie, 4 "levels" past deadly) or so. That avoids worrying about
which "attack" you apply attacker's successes, defender's combat pool,
armor, etc to. Additionally, it's only one damage resistance test. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 8
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:07:28 +1100
At 08:23 15/03/99 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
>In SR I've always been annoyed that the big guns (like the PAC) really
>can't out and out kill a character.
>

No need to write new house-rules, just use or slightly tweak three
existing rules and I'm sure you'll succeed at killing characters with ease :-)

1. Use the deadlier over-damage rule on SR3 p126 with over-damage
occurring
if the attack's Power exceeds the target's Body. I don't think those Body 18
trolls are common enough to shrug off an 18D weapon.

2. Tweak the over-flow track progression to use Gurth's over-deadly
staging.

3. Tweak the Grenade/Explosives optional rule on SR3 page 119 to apply to
Heavy Weapons, especially those with explosive shells (eg. the PAC), in
addition to the user's own successes. This means the weapon's own power may
stage up the damage further - taking it past Deadly and into the overflow.

If these tweaks are used, then even with just one success using the
PAC,
the weapon's own power should, on average, give four more successes causing,
using Gurth's staging, a Moderate on the overflow track. The character is a
red, mauled piece of wreckage and, if not already dead, will be dead in
seconds.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Alternate Damage Tracks
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:51:49 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 11:03 on 15 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even with the overflow rules if a
> character shoots another character with a PAC and the only get one
> success, and the person who was hit fails their damage resistance test,
> then the person hit takes a Deadly wound (10 boxes of damage) and is
> unconscious. They aren't bleeding and they aren't dying.

They are bleeding and they are dying. Every number of turns equal to their
Body rating, they take an additional box of damage, which will eventually
be fatal.

(I am aware that the rules in SR3 about this are somewhat ambiguous, in
that they can be read to mean that the aboveo nly happens if a character's
taken _more_ than 10 boxes of damage.)

--
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