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Message no. 1
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:47:44 -0400
Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails? This
seems to be highly preferable to a squirt which has sorry range. The
guns are relatively quiet and have no kick to speak of. The paintballs
can be drained and refilled with all sorts of chemicals. You also get
ridiculously high rates of fire on the high end models (Angel, $1200US,
15rps/900rpm semiauto, electronic fire control and forced feed
paintballs).

Thoughts?

(Erik, being a paintballer, I'm surprised you didn't bring this
up in defense of your non-lethal mentality when people were bashing the
squirt.)
Message no. 2
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:58:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 11:49:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?

Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:16:57 +0100
And verily, did M. Sean Martinez hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 8/25/98 11:49:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
|bryan.covington@****.COM writes:
|
|> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
|
|Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
|

Depends what they're made of...
DMSO is perfect for direct absorbtion through the skin.
It doesn't mean that it'll disolve plastic....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 4
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:15:50 -0400
> > Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
>
> Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
>
The paint doesn't.
Message no. 5
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:26:56 -0500
> |> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
> |
> |Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
> |
>
> Depends what they're made of...
> DMSO is perfect for direct absorbtion through the skin.
> It doesn't mean that it'll disolve plastic....

Paintball casings are water-soluable. The paint is oil based.
Message no. 6
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:44:15 -0400
>>> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
>
>Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?

DMSO isn't a solvent, it causes the pores in the skin to open all the
way. It it's a biological reaction, not chemical.

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
The Shiny Happy Gaming Group - http://www.dwebs.net/~alareth
ICQ UIN - 11468823
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:22:13 -0400
At 11:26 AM 8/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> |> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
>> |
>> |Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
>> |
>> Depends what they're made of...
>> DMSO is perfect for direct absorbtion through the skin.
>> It doesn't mean that it'll disolve plastic....
>
>Paintball casings are water-soluable. The paint is oil based.

Almost all incorrect.

Paintball casing are NOT made of plastic; that would hurt like hell getting
shot with that. The only breakage you could guarantee would be the skin,
not the paintball itself which is the reverse of what you want. If the
shell doesn't break, the paint doesn't splatter, and so despite being hit,
you are still in the game. I don't know how many times that has happened
to me personally.

They are water-soluable. So is the paint; oil-based paint hasn't been used
in paintball for years now. You can now wash out almost all paintball
stains in the normal wash cycle (except perhaps for RP Scherer "All Star"
paint, nicknamed "Evil" because it does stain and thus is harder to wipe
off during play; for the same reason, it's banned in recreactional play and
is reserved strictly for tournaments. It's still water-soluable though, if
only barely.).

Paintball casings are made from the same gelatin-type stuff that gelcaps
are made of. If you take pills or vitamins that are enclosed within
something else, it's a good shot that you are eating the same stuff that is
an outer casing for a paintball. It's not a coincidence that
pharmacuetical companies and paintball manufacturers are connected to each
other in some way.

Now if DMSO can pass through a gelatin-type stuff barrier, then it's
useless for the purpose being thought off. I don't think that's the case
however.

There is one paintball gun, to be found in the CorpSec book. Like much of
the rest of the book, it's easily forgotten. While it's a decent enough
book, it's just simply easily forgotten. Such as the case with paintballs
delivering DMSO cocktails for me.

But yes, Bryan, the EL-DAR (I think that's the name) would be a far
superior means of attacking someone with a DMSO cocktail of some variety.
I think I have used it in the past, just not recently.

Erik J.
Message no. 8
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:47:18 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, XaOs wrote:

->> |> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
->> |
->> |Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
->> |
->>
->> Depends what they're made of...
->> DMSO is perfect for direct absorbtion through the skin.
->> It doesn't mean that it'll disolve plastic....
->
->Paintball casings are water-soluable. The paint is oil based.

Last time I checked it was the other way around. (Then again,
never played actual paintball.)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 9
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:39:59 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 1:22:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> Now if DMSO can pass through a gelatin-type stuff barrier, then it's
> useless for the purpose being thought off. I don't think that's the case
> however.

Hmmm, I pulled this from one of the many medical pages out there:

DMSO is a highly polar substance with exceptional solvent properties for
organic and inorganic chemicals and is widely used as an industrial solvent.
DMSO is also used to protect living cells during cold storage. To prepare a
sterile solution, use a teflon or nylon membrane to sterile-filter the DMSO;
do not use a cellulose acetate membrane.

I plan on checking with a co-worker of mine and asking what those gel caps are
made of and weather DMSO would disolve them. Course I could just experiment at
the lab, now that I think about it, but something tells me that would be a bad
idea.

-Bandit
Message no. 10
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:51:16 -0400
> Hmmm, I pulled this from one of the many medical pages out there:
>
<snip>

> I plan on checking with a co-worker of mine and asking what those gel
> caps are
> made of and weather DMSO would disolve them. Course I could just
> experiment at
> the lab, now that I think about it, but something tells me that would
> be a bad
> idea.
>
#1. They are gelatin. Which in case you don't know is
made from animal cartilage (cow knees mostly).

#2. Who cares if it works now. I KNOW I can make an
excuse or two for making it work in 71 years.

Honestly I was much more interested in the concept of
loading paintballs due to the better accuracy, range and rate of fire as
compared to the squirt. I just thought I'd share the idea...
Message no. 11
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:58:34 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

-> Honestly I was much more interested in the concept of
->loading paintballs due to the better accuracy, range and rate of fire as
->compared to the squirt. I just thought I'd share the idea...

My players thank you, I shared the idea and they liked it... and
are now hounding me about where to get paintball guns (which I assume
would still be legal in 2060) and what their stats are. Corporate
Security did someone say?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 12
From: Mike Post <mpost@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:10:52 -0700
> > I plan on checking with a co-worker of mine and asking what those gel
> > caps are
> > made of and weather DMSO would disolve them.
> >
> #1. They are gelatin. Which in case you don't know is
> made from animal cartilage (cow knees mostly).

You can get non-gelatin gel caps. I've seen these on vegan vitamins at
health food stores. IIRC, these vegan gel caps are made from a cellulose
material in which case the DMSO would affect them (didn't someone say DMSO
dissolves cellulose?). Remember, real animal products are pretty
expensive in most places circa 2060. That's why everyone eats NutriSoy
(tm) -- yum!!


"Here we are, saddled with 4 1/2 billion years of biological legacy,
essentially designed to live short, aggressive and violent lives on the
plains of the serengeti, but yet are forced to be good, contemporary
citizens." -- Moby
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:53:33 -0400
At 03:58 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote:

> My players thank you, I shared the idea and they liked it... and
>are now hounding me about where to get paintball guns (which I assume
>would still be legal in 2060) and what their stats are. Corporate
>Security did someone say?

Yes, the Corporate Security Handbook. Basically a guide on how to really
screw your players.

I believe it's out of print, but I also believe that most game stores
should have at least one in stock. You can always e-mail the fine folks at
All Star Games (www.allstargames.com) to see what they, or their
distributor, have. They hooked up a couple of list.members with Shadowbeat
not too long ago.

Would paintball guns still be legal in 2060? Well, if normal gun control
laws concerning real firearms have been loosened as I believe FASA says,
they almost certainly.

Of course, the authors of CorpSec couldn't resist putting in a dig or two
at paintball players in the Shadowtalk part of the ELD-AR's description.
Which, given the weapon itself, really displays a lack of knowledge of the
game to me.

As I recall, the stats on the ELD-AR weren't that good *and* it looked
goofy. I'm telling ya', just like with modern firearms, modern paintball
guns are so much better than what FASA gives us.

I'm pretty sure I could come up with more paintball gun stats if enough
people asked for it.

Erik J.
Message no. 14
From: Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:43:34 -0400
In our last episode, the Bandit wrote:
>
> Hmmm, I pulled this from one of the many medical pages out there:
> DMSO is a highly polar substance with exceptional solvent properties
<.00000000004 MP Deleted>

You may also be interested to know, there's a "DMSO Homepage:"

http://www.dmso.org/

Lots of useful links & more uses for it too.

_
Dimethyl Sulfoxide: O
|
CH --O--S--O--CH
3 || 3
O

To answer Byran's original question:

Our non-IRC group uses DSMO-Chemical rounds as "standard loads" on the
majority of our shadowruns. Usually, the 'Chem' part is the contact
toxin NeuroStun VIII or NarcoJet. We also carry magazines of regular
'hot-loads' in reserve for when the drek hits the fan.

Only diffrence is, we don't use paintguns, instead it's simply standard
firearms (even, shotguns) with GEL rounds (the hollow kind, check with
your distributors for this, they can get them.)

Check here for the complete Gel-Chem rundown & process:

http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/engfun.htm

scroll down to the Table of Contents & follow the link to "DMSO."

Happy hunting,
--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
B.K.K. -- still Knobi after all these years!
http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/bkk.htm
Message no. 15
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:35:29 -0400
bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
>
> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
>
<snip>

> Thoughts?
>
Hadn't really thought of that, but I was inspired by a cheap made for
tv movie the other night. How about delivering your favorite
DMSO/<chem> combo via a roll-on dispenser, like those used by some
deoderants. Make it small enough and you may be able to
sleaze/seduce/sucker/sneak a quick application. :)

Have fun with that one.

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios
BABY #357

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 16
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:41:18 -0400
Iridios didst sayeth:
>bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
>> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
>>
><snip>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>Hadn't really thought of that, but I was inspired by a cheap made for
>tv movie the other night. How about delivering your favorite
>DMSO/<chem> combo via a roll-on dispenser, like those used by some
>deoderants. Make it small enough and you may be able to
>sleaze/seduce/sucker/sneak a quick application. :)


How about this...

It's a month after the Pro <insert sprot here> Draft and the #1 pick is
still in holdout. A rep from the team trying to sign him wants to get him
for far less than he wishes so runners are approached by a rep from one team
who wants to make sure he fails his drug test, which means a fine, and hurts
him for negotiations. All they have to do is break into his gym and slip
some DMSO and some designer party drug, be it Ecstasy, LSD, or something
totally made up into his shower water. It would get diluted enough that he
wouldn't notice any major effects, but would still show up on his drug
screening.

Unless he happens to have signed with the Dallas Cowboys, he's going to have
to settle for less cash since he's now got 'off the field problems'.

Just a thought...not sure if it's coherent, but when has that ever stopped
me...

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 17
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:15:42 EDT
Note also that it would seem obvious (well at least to me) that DMSO or a
similar substance would be active in slap patches. (If we got DMSO now, how
come we don't have hypo=sprays like Star Trek, no more shots :-)

If you wear a chem-suit, could you drape it in a sticky DMSO concoction,
combined with anything. Run around bear-hugging people?
Message no. 18
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:18:54 -0400
> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails? This
> seems to be highly preferable to a squirt which has sorry range. The
> guns are relatively quiet and have no kick to speak of. The paintballs
> can be drained and refilled with all sorts of chemicals. You also get
> ridiculously high rates of fire on the high end models (Angel, $1200US,
> 15rps/900rpm semiauto, electronic fire control and forced feed
> paintballs).

Actually, paintballs aren't all that great in the range department
either. Also, since there's no rifling and the pellet is a sphere, the
aerodynamics can cause them to veer off in unuasal directions.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 19
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:26:39 +1000
On Shadowrun Discussion, Bai Shen[SMTP:baishen@**********.COM] wrote:
> > Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
This
> > seems to be highly preferable to a squirt which has sorry range. The
> > guns are relatively quiet and have no kick to speak of. The
paintballs
> > can be drained and refilled with all sorts of chemicals. You also
get
> > ridiculously high rates of fire on the high end models (Angel,
$1200US,
> > 15rps/900rpm semiauto, electronic fire control and forced feed
> > paintballs).
>
> Actually, paintballs aren't all that great in the range department
> either. Also, since there's no rifling and the pellet is a sphere,
the
> aerodynamics can cause them to veer off in unuasal directions.

What's to stop a designer from coming up with some sort of new pellet
shape and including rifling on the barrel. If paintball pellets are made
from the same sort of stuff as gell caps, then shape them the same. Gel
caps have a much more aerodynamic shape than a sphere. It would entail
some sort of better magazine feed to make sure that the new rounds got
fed correctly into the breech, but I am sure something could be done.
Perhaps something like the old drum mags of the WW1 vintage Lewis guns
might work.

If someone wanted it badly enough it could be done.

cheers
G

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - TOWER Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"That rates about a 9.5 on my weird-shit-o-meter"
- Will Smith in "Men in Black"
Message no. 20
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:46:13 -0500
> ->Paintball casings are water-soluable. The paint is oil based.
>
> Last time I checked it was the other way around. (Then again,
> never played actual paintball.)

Misspoke myself. I got the casings right. But the paint is 'oily', but is
indeed water-soluable. (Taste one, you'll see ;)

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 21
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 07:41:39 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

->At 03:58 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
->
->> My players thank you, I shared the idea and they liked it... and
->>are now hounding me about where to get paintball guns (which I assume
->>would still be legal in 2060) and what their stats are. Corporate
->>Security did someone say?
->
->Yes, the Corporate Security Handbook. Basically a guide on how to really
->screw your players.
->
->I believe it's out of print, but I also believe that most game stores
->should have at least one in stock. You can always e-mail the fine folks at
->All Star Games (www.allstargames.com) to see what they, or their
->distributor, have. They hooked up a couple of list.members with Shadowbeat
->not too long ago.

I believe the only two Shadowrun books I am missing are Awakenings
and Threats. And, of course, nearly every adventure (I have Ivy & Chrome,
that's it).

->Would paintball guns still be legal in 2060? Well, if normal gun control
->laws concerning real firearms have been loosened as I believe FASA says,
->they almost certainly.
->
->Of course, the authors of CorpSec couldn't resist putting in a dig or two
->at paintball players in the Shadowtalk part of the ELD-AR's description.
->Which, given the weapon itself, really displays a lack of knowledge of the
->game to me.
->
->As I recall, the stats on the ELD-AR weren't that good *and* it looked
->goofy. I'm telling ya', just like with modern firearms, modern paintball
->guns are so much better than what FASA gives us.

I've had my shadowrunning characters dress up in jester's outfits
and run around shooting people with Squirts yelling "Let's Play!" while on
a shadowrun. "Goofy-looking" guns are not a problem.... ]:-)

->I'm pretty sure I could come up with more paintball gun stats if enough
->people asked for it.

Sure, give us a few more... more variety and all...

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:22:08 +0100
And verily, did Michael vanHulst hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Note also that it would seem obvious (well at least to me) that DMSO or a
|similar substance would be active in slap patches. (If we got DMSO now, how
|come we don't have hypo=sprays like Star Trek, no more shots :-)

Errr....
We do. They use high pressure air (or is it water) as a propellant.
The medicine goes through the skin without actually puncturing it.

That thing was on "Tomorrows World" over a decade ago.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 23
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:12:00 -0400
>Errr....
>We do. They use high pressure air (or is it water) as a propellant.
>The medicine goes through the skin without actually puncturing it.


Oh they most definitely do puncture the skin. The US Navy uses them
extensively and I have gotten serveral shots with them. They hurt. I once
saw someone faint while getting a shot in the arm from one and as he fell it
sliced his arm open like a knife. Left a gash about 4 to 5 inches long.

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
The Shiny Happy Gaming Group - http://www.dwebs.net/~alareth
ICQ UIN - 11468823
Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:58:49 -0500
<snip things about why we don't have TREK's hypospray>

>We do. They use high pressure air (or is it water) as a propellant.
>The medicine goes through the skin without actually puncturing it.
>
>That thing was on "Tomorrows World" over a decade ago.

It uses compressed air, and since I got all my shots with them at my
induction into the USAF 12 years ago, I feel qualified to say that, at that
particular point in time, they had a long way to go. Perhaps they've
improved in the intervening decade or so.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 25
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:45:55 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 6:19:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET writes:

> >Errr....
> >We do. They use high pressure air (or is it water) as a propellant.
> >The medicine goes through the skin without actually puncturing it.
>
>
> Oh they most definitely do puncture the skin. The US Navy uses them
> extensively and I have gotten serveral shots with them. They hurt. I once
> saw someone faint while getting a shot in the arm from one and as he fell
it
> sliced his arm open like a knife. Left a gash about 4 to 5 inches long.

As well, a DMSO(hypo-spray) injector would not "puncture" the skin at all. Rub
the area clean, apply medicine, cover with patch to make sure no other objects
get in while the DMSO is still "active"
Slap patches IMO would be the last two steps, but how much do they clean
before they are applied? Maybe there should be a chance of sickness if the
person is not "clean"
"You were running through the sewers covered in your sweat and other
peoples, uh... stuff. Then you thought to apply a stim patch to keep you
awake? <Evil GM laughter>"
Message no. 26
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:12:15 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
> As I recall, the stats on the ELD-AR weren't that good *and* it looked
> goofy. I'm telling ya', just like with modern firearms, modern paintball
> guns are so much better than what FASA gives us.
>
As I recall, it fired in SA/BF modes, no recoil and silent. The clip
holds 50 rounds. I *think* it used AR ranges, but I'm not sure about
that. In any case, when it hits it does 4L (stun, I think). The 4L
is negligible - the important part is the silent, recoiless, BF
delivery. That and the large clip. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 27
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:22:04 -0400
At 11:18 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Actually, paintballs aren't all that great in the range department
>either. Also, since there's no rifling and the pellet is a sphere, the
>aerodynamics can cause them to veer off in unuasal directions.

This is a case in which you cannot compare apples (firearms ballistics) to
oranges (paintball ballistics). While they are both fruit, they are very
very different.

As compared to firearms, of course their range is crappy. But compared to
a bloody squirtgun, paintguns are fraggin' ICBMs.

I don't know where you got your information, but it's off. No, there is no
rifling because it would be pointless. You can't lay one paintball right
on top of another at 50yards like you can with a firearm. But with good,
fresh paint and a good barrel, you *can* get a solid grouping, within
inches even, which is good enough most of the time to hit a person.

Veer off in unusual directions? That has little if anything to do with the
fact that a paintball is a sphere. Remember that it only travels at about
a maximum of 300fps, *well* below any firearm. The problem really comes in
with spin differentials. The outer gel shell spins at one speed. The
inner liquid paint ends up spinning at a different speed. That
differential is what causes most wobbles and veers. And because velocity
is so low, even *this* problem isn't really much of a problem at all.

Now, you actually can mimic rifling with a spirally ported barrel. This
imparts greater spin to the ball. So a spirally ported barrel does
increase short to medium range accuracy. But at long range, all that
spinning causes a paintball to spin off in another direction.

No, a paintball gun is an excellent way to deliver a chemical package of
some kind. It has pretty good effective range (50m seems to be a common
enough effective range; note that total range is much longer, but beyond
50m or so you have problems with having enough impact force to break open
the paintball). It has pretty good accuracy. And Rate of Fire can be
tremendous; an Automag RT can fire (in theory) as much as 26 balls per
second under perfect conditions; 8-10bps is common enough for many
semi-autos if you can simply pull the trigger fast enough, and full-autos
(the AFT-80 series in particular) fires at 13bps. Okay, again, that's
nothing compared to a G11 in ROF. But in game mechanics, it should be just
as fast as any semi or burst capable firearm.

A paintball gun even made it's way into a Jackie Chan movie (I think
Supercop). An Autococker was given to him as a high-tech gadget "marking"
gun, supposed to fire a tracking device I think, in the movie.

Erik J.
Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:26:04 -0400
At 09:12 AM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Errr....
>>We do. They use high pressure air (or is it water) as a propellant.
>>The medicine goes through the skin without actually puncturing it.
>
> Oh they most definitely do puncture the skin. The US Navy uses them
>extensively and I have gotten serveral shots with them. They hurt. I once
>saw someone faint while getting a shot in the arm from one and as he fell it
>sliced his arm open like a knife. Left a gash about 4 to 5 inches long.

All obviously true. The main reason they are used by the military is to
avoid the entire problem with needles. When you have to give shots to
thousands of recruits, you don't want to deal with cleaning and disposing
of needles.

You'll see this fairly often with flu shots also, though it's not terribly
common; only one of the last three or four flu shots I've had was with an
"airhypo."

You don't see the "airhypo" things in common usage though because one, it
tends to hurt more than a needle, at least initially. And two, as was
noted, a flinch and that jet of air acts just like a knife.

I would guess, however, that a 2060 MedKit probably does use this gadget
instead of needles. Cleaner, quicker, more interchangability (is that a
word?).

Erik J.
Message no. 29
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:35:49 -0400
> I don't know where you got your information, but it's off. No, there
> is no
> rifling because it would be pointless. You can't lay one paintball
> right
> on top of another at 50yards like you can with a firearm. But with
> good,
> fresh paint and a good barrel, you *can* get a solid grouping, within
> inches even, which is good enough most of the time to hit a person.
>
4" or so is not uncommon with a semiauto.

> Veer off in unusual directions? That has little if anything to do
> with the
> fact that a paintball is a sphere. Remember that it only travels at
> about
> a maximum of 300fps, *well* below any firearm. The problem really
> comes in
> with spin differentials. The outer gel shell spins at one speed. The
> inner liquid paint ends up spinning at a different speed. That
> differential is what causes most wobbles and veers. And because
> velocity
> is so low, even *this* problem isn't really much of a problem at all.
>
Bear in mind we aren't using these for paintball
anymore. I'm sure as hell not gonna chrono my gun to make sure its under
300fps before I got whacking corp sec goons. They might get a bruise but
its better than a bullethole.

> Now, you actually can mimic rifling with a spirally ported barrel.
> This
> imparts greater spin to the ball. So a spirally ported barrel does
> increase short to medium range accuracy. But at long range, all that
> spinning causes a paintball to spin off in another direction.
>
Consider also golf ball-like dimples to make the ball
more aerodynamic. I'm not sure how well this would work but it would
definitely have an effect.
Message no. 30
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:30:06 -0400
At 02:35 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> fresh paint and a good barrel, you *can* get a solid grouping, within
>> inches even, which is good enough most of the time to hit a person.
>>
> 4" or so is not uncommon with a semiauto.

Yup. That's a pretty good grouping when you are shooting at a person.

> Bear in mind we aren't using these for paintball
>anymore. I'm sure as hell not gonna chrono my gun to make sure its under
>300fps before I got whacking corp sec goons. They might get a bruise but
>its better than a bullethole.

Oh yeah.

Well, you can push your fps up to around 350 or so without significant
problems. Pushing over 400fps is possible, but at that point you
dramatically increase the chances of ball breakage and lose lots of gas
efficiency. BUT your range is much much better.

Good point Bryan; I've gotten the field limits so locked into my head that
it never occured to me that for combat usage you'd ignore the playing limits.

> Consider also golf ball-like dimples to make the ball
>more aerodynamic. I'm not sure how well this would work but it would
>definitely have an effect.

Hmmmm...potentially so. Does anyone know exactly what the purposes of the
dimples on golf balls are for?

I think it's not done now because it would probably dramatically increase
manufacturing costs; and paintballs are expensive enough as it is. Good
paint (RP Scherer Marbellizer, my favorite) is about $85 for 2500 rounds.
That's pretty expensive. You can get "house paint" for about $50 for 2500,
but that stuff *is* erratic.

Good points Bryan.

Erik J.
Message no. 31
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:40:36 -0400
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery

> What's to stop a designer from coming up with some sort of new pellet
> shape and including rifling on the barrel. If paintball pellets are made
> from the same sort of stuff as gell caps, then shape them the same. Gel

This shape would also, unfortunately make the paint balls harder to
break, defeating the purpose. I'm sure if it was possible, the
paintball industry would've done it by now. :)


--Droopy
Message no. 32
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:40:36 -0400
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery

> Actually, paintballs aren't all that great in the range department
> either. Also, since there's no rifling and the pellet is a sphere, the
> aerodynamics can cause them to veer off in unuasal directions. -- Bai Shen

In my role as Evil GM (TM) I am more interested in ball breakage in
the gun. An all too common occurance. :P

As for poor range...most runs are in an urban environment (or
indoors.) Range shouldn't be too much of a problem. I would see
it being used more to take out targets with stealth in any case.


--Droopy
Message no. 33
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:40:36 -0400
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery

> Misspoke myself. I got the casings right. But the paint is 'oily', but is
> indeed water-soluable. (Taste one, you'll see ;)

In danger of sliding off topic here...my friend plays paintball non
stop (I only play occasionally anymore) and they had a paintball
eating contest at one of the larger events he went to.

More on topic. The noise level of paintball guns varies greatly.
Anyone who thinks they are truly silent hasn't heard one fire.
Saying that, they are still quieter than a firearm.

One particular gun (the shocker) is extremely quiet. It uses a
celenoid <sp> to move the bolt instead of air pressure and thus
uses a much lower pressure than other guns. It is pretty quiet
relatively (ie you can hear it from a short distance away, but not
from say 100meters.) It's also got a good range and ROF.

Also, they are really more like a rifle in size than a pistol. There
are pistol sized guns around (large pistol sized) but those guns are
relatively low quality, with a short range, small magazine, and
make a fair amount of noise. (there are exceptions to the quality)


--Droopy
Message no. 34
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:40:36 -0400
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery

> Oh they most definitely do puncture the skin. The US Navy uses them
> extensively and I have gotten serveral shots with them. They hurt. I
> once saw someone faint while getting a shot in the arm from one and as he
> fell it sliced his arm open like a knife. Left a gash about 4 to 5 inches
> long.

Yeah...they never bothered me except for the time some cruit
slashed my arm with one then tried to claim I flinched (the one on
the other arm given at the same time was fine.)

They are pretty good, but the equipment needed to run them is
bulky and there is no range to speak of. They use a lot of air
pressure to punch through the skin, so I don't see an airtank doing
much.


--Droopy
Message no. 35
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:49:28 -0400
> >> fresh paint and a good barrel, you *can* get a solid grouping,
> within
> >> inches even, which is good enough most of the time to hit a person.
> >>
> > 4" or so is not uncommon with a semiauto.
>
> Yup. That's a pretty good grouping when you are shooting at a person.
>
Saw that on a field test of a new gun. I think that was
locked in a vise though which means in your hand it's gonna suck next to
a firearm of any kind. But then, its lawyers easier to kill than
incapacitate. Thats life.

> > Bear in mind we aren't using these for paintball
> >anymore. I'm sure as hell not gonna chrono my gun to make sure its
> under
> >300fps before I got whacking corp sec goons. They might get a bruise
> but
> >its better than a bullethole.
>
> Oh yeah.
>
> Well, you can push your fps up to around 350 or so without significant
> problems. Pushing over 400fps is possible, but at that point you
> dramatically increase the chances of ball breakage and lose lots of
> gas
> efficiency. BUT your range is much much better.
>
> Good point Bryan; I've gotten the field limits so locked into my head
> that
> it never occured to me that for combat usage you'd ignore the playing
> limits.
>
I don't own any guns and don't know that much about how
they work but it seems like you could get a little more out of them
before hitting the point of diminishing returns.

> > Consider also golf ball-like dimples to make the ball
> >more aerodynamic. I'm not sure how well this would work but it would
> >definitely have an effect.
>
> Hmmmm...potentially so. Does anyone know exactly what the purposes of
> the
> dimples on golf balls are for?
>
They create little low pressure areas around the ball.
This makes eddies (sp?) of air that basically keep the air away from the
ball with other air.
You end up with a relatively (stress on that) stable
pocket of air over which the passing air slides causing much less air
friction and stabilizes the ball greatly.
However spin does become an issue (ask any golfer who
has sliced a dozen balls into the lake). With a gun though I'm sure you
could control that a great deal. You could probably even create a
backspin which (if I am thinking correctly) would make the ball actually
rise as it leaves the gun. Not much rise, mind you, but it would boost
your range a bit.

> I think it's not done now because it would probably dramatically
> increase
> manufacturing costs; and paintballs are expensive enough as it is.
> Good
> paint (RP Scherer Marbellizer, my favorite) is about $85 for 2500
> rounds.
> That's pretty expensive. You can get "house paint" for about $50 for
> 2500,
> but that stuff *is* erratic.
>
Oh I'm sure that is why it's done. But you never know,
I'm sure manufacturing costs will drop at least a little bit in 70
years.

> Good points Bryan.
>
Man we agree. One of us must be slipping. Maybe if I
make a few jabs at your boxing...<duck>
Message no. 36
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:53:40 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ > Consider also golf ball-like dimples to make the ball
/ >more aerodynamic. I'm not sure how well this would work but it would
/ >definitely have an effect.
/
/ Hmmmm...potentially so. Does anyone know exactly what the purposes of the
/ dimples on golf balls are for?

When you hit a golf ball it has significant back spin along it's
horizontal axis. The dimples create more air friction on the bottom
then on the top. Because the air is moving faster over the top of the
ball bernulli's(sp?) principle acts on the ball, creating low pressure
above the ball, creating lift. Because of this a golf ball with
dimples travels farther than a golf ball without dimples.

/ I think it's not done now because it would probably dramatically increase
/ manufacturing costs; and paintballs are expensive enough as it is. Good
/ paint (RP Scherer Marbellizer, my favorite) is about $85 for 2500 rounds.
/ That's pretty expensive. You can get "house paint" for about $50 for 2500,
/ but that stuff *is* erratic.

Actually, using a different mold shouldn't drastically increase the
production cost. It probably isn't done because imparting backspin
on a paintball *would* be expensive. And, if you aren't holding the
gun perfectly level your shot will curve (slice/hook) which would be a
bad thing in the heat of combat.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 37
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:53:46 -0400
> > Oh they most definitely do puncture the skin. The US Navy uses
> them
> > extensively and I have gotten serveral shots with them. They hurt.
> I
> > once saw someone faint while getting a shot in the arm from one and
> as he
> > fell it sliced his arm open like a knife. Left a gash about 4 to 5
> inches
> > long.
>
> Yeah...they never bothered me except for the time some cruit
> slashed my arm with one then tried to claim I flinched (the one on
> the other arm given at the same time was fine.)
>
> They are pretty good, but the equipment needed to run them is
> bulky and there is no range to speak of. They use a lot of air
> pressure to punch through the skin, so I don't see an airtank doing
> much.
>
On a more SR stint, anyone of the opinion that all that
bulky gear could be pared down and the range extended by 2060? It'd be a
really wiz little knife.

Incidentally, there is a similar concept used to cut
meat. They use a high pressure water stream. The whole thing looks like
a bandsaw but where the blade would be is a stream of water. Shoots at
about 10,000psi. Cuts though bone like butter.
Message no. 38
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:06:03 -0400
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Droopy . wrote:

->From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
->Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
->
->> What's to stop a designer from coming up with some sort of new pellet
->> shape and including rifling on the barrel. If paintball pellets are made
->> from the same sort of stuff as gell caps, then shape them the same. Gel
->
->This shape would also, unfortunately make the paint balls harder to
->break, defeating the purpose. I'm sure if it was possible, the
->paintball industry would've done it by now. :)

Hmmm..... Paintball shapes, difficulty of breakage.....

_____/--------------------------\
_/ |
\ |
~~~~~\--------------------------/

Hard Plastic pin on the end (to ensure breakage on impact) with a
softer ouside shell but harder backside (to prevent messy exits). I
dunno, I'm no ballistics expert, would something like this (with a
somewhat random latticework of plactic inside to prevent the liquid from
flowing too much as well as add stability) be plausable?



Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 39
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:16:31 -0400
>> Consider also golf ball-like dimples to make the ball
>>more aerodynamic. I'm not sure how well this would work but it would
>>definitely have an effect.
>
>Hmmmm...potentially so. Does anyone know exactly what the purposes of the
>dimples on golf balls are for?
>


They decrease drag thereby increasing range and Decreasing the effects of
spin and wind.

Steve
Message no. 40
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:06:23 -0400
> ->> What's to stop a designer from coming up with some sort of new
> pellet
> ->> shape and including rifling on the barrel. If paintball pellets
> are made
> ->> from the same sort of stuff as gell caps, then shape them the
> same. Gel
> ->
> ->This shape would also, unfortunately make the paint balls harder to
> ->break, defeating the purpose. I'm sure if it was possible, the
> ->paintball industry would've done it by now. :)
>
> Hmmm..... Paintball shapes, difficulty of breakage.....
>
> _____/--------------------------\
> _/ |
> \ |
> ~~~~~\--------------------------/
>
> Hard Plastic pin on the end (to ensure breakage on impact)
> with a
> softer ouside shell but harder backside (to prevent messy exits). I
> dunno, I'm no ballistics expert, would something like this (with a
> somewhat random latticework of plactic inside to prevent the liquid
> from
> flowing too much as well as add stability) be plausable?
>
It might but it's also gonna hurt like hell. Hard
plastic pin?!?!? I ain't playing with you pal.
You have to remember while we are looking at this as a
method of delivering a chemical to a basically unwilling target, with no
regard for his feelings on the issue, the GAME of paintball is designed
to be fun, not overly painful. Keep this in mind when you put hard
plastic anythings on paintballs.
Message no. 41
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:08:20 -0400
> Incidentally, there is a similar concept used to cut
>meat. They use a high pressure water stream. The whole thing looks like
>a bandsaw but where the blade would be is a stream of water. Shoots at
>about 10,000psi. Cuts though bone like butter.

I saw something similar to that on a science and tech show once. It
was computer controlled and was used to cut shapes out of plywood and sheet
metal.

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
The Shiny Happy Gaming Group - http://www.dwebs.net/~alareth
ICQ UIN - 11468823
Message no. 42
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:32:41 -0700
>Hmmmm...potentially so. Does anyone know exactly what the purposes of the
>dimples on golf balls are for?

You asked for it. ;-)

The dimples are there to break up laminar flow across the surface of the
ball. Laminar flow (smooth, non-varying) is usually desirable but in this
case the boundary layer separation of the (nearly) inviscid airflow
generates more lift than simple flow over a smooth sphere would.

The Reynold's number at this regime is one indicator.

You would need to solve Navier-Stokes equations if you want the nitty
gritty details.

BTW, this is the same phenomena that shatters the myth that aerodyanamics
cannot explain why bumblebees fly.

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 43
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:40:53 -0700
>When you hit a golf ball it has significant back spin along it's
>horizontal axis. The dimples create more air friction on the bottom
>then on the top. Because the air is moving faster over the top of the
>ball bernulli's(sp?) principle acts on the ball, creating low pressure
>above the ball, creating lift. Because of this a golf ball with
>dimples travels farther than a golf ball without dimples.

Not quite.

Bernoulli's principle acts regardless of the presence of dimples or not.
Also, the spins and forces involved relagate Bernoulli's principle to a
secondary effect (it is not the main source of lift). If that were not the
case, knuckleballs thrown by pitchers and volleyballs would not generate
lift.

Bernoulli's principle only "cares" about the relative velocity difference,
not the boundary layer viscoscity (aerodynamic friction). The correct
explanation has to do with laminar flow separation.

>email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 44
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:52:05 -0400
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

<snip gibberish and my ASCII picture>
-> It might but it's also gonna hurt like hell. Hard
->plastic pin?!?!? I ain't playing with you pal.

I don't play, so I can be objective about it. ]:-)

-> You have to remember while we are looking at this as a
->method of delivering a chemical to a basically unwilling target, with no
->regard for his feelings on the issue, the GAME of paintball is designed
->to be fun, not overly painful. Keep this in mind when you put hard
->plastic anythings on paintballs.

I'm thinking maybe allowing these rounds would be similar to gel
rounds except a lower power rating plus the "splatter effect" of the
chemicals. Don't worry, I won't create these IRL (I could use real
weapons to hurt people then.... <EvilFixerGrin>).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 45
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:45:16 -0700
> _____/--------------------------\
> _/ |
> \ |
> ~~~~~\--------------------------/
>
> Hard Plastic pin on the end (to ensure breakage on impact) with a
>softer ouside shell but harder backside (to prevent messy exits). I
>dunno, I'm no ballistics expert, would something like this (with a
>somewhat random latticework of plactic inside to prevent the liquid from
>flowing too much as well as add stability) be plausable?

Of course, you would probably puncture the target struck with the pin. It
would be a liability in today's paintball market, but wouldn't be too much
of note against scum-sucking Shadowrunners. ;-)

>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 46
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:57:49 -0400
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:

<snip golf ball dimples>
->You would need to solve Navier-Stokes equations if you want the nitty
->gritty details.
->
->BTW, this is the same phenomena that shatters the myth that aerodyanamics
->cannot explain why bumblebees fly.

Because they have dimples? Gee.... wonder why my cousin hasn't
started levitating at least..... (This is a joke created just to waste
bandwidth, please don't bother flaming me, I'll just delete it.)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 47
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:28:39 -0400
At 03:49 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> Hmmmm...potentially so. Does anyone know exactly what the purposes of
>> the
>> dimples on golf balls are for?
>>
> They create little low pressure areas around the ball.
>This makes eddies (sp?) of air that basically keep the air away from the
>ball with other air.
> You end up with a relatively (stress on that) stable
>pocket of air over which the passing air slides causing much less air
>friction and stabilizes the ball greatly.
> However spin does become an issue (ask any golfer who

Ah, based on this and other posts, such as from David B., I'm guessing this
may be the reason why it's not done. Too much spin and it messes with
accuracy. It may also be the fact that dimples may alter the structural
integrity of the paintball, which would either make it too hard or too easy
to break; both are very bad.

>> Good points Bryan.
>>
> Man we agree. One of us must be slipping. Maybe if I
>make a few jabs at your boxing...<duck>

Jabs?

<snicker>

Ah, a well placed pun can be a very amusing thing...

Erik J.
Message no. 48
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:29:37 -0400
At 03:40 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:

>In danger of sliding off topic here...my friend plays paintball non
>stop (I only play occasionally anymore) and they had a paintball
>eating contest at one of the larger events he went to.

Won't catch me doing that...non-toxic doesn't mean edible!

>More on topic. The noise level of paintball guns varies greatly.
>Anyone who thinks they are truly silent hasn't heard one fire.
>Saying that, they are still quieter than a firearm.

Very true. Low Pressure Electro-pnuematic guns, like the Shocker or the
Angel tend to be very quiet. On the other hand, the Raimaker is *also* an
electro-pneumatic gun and it sounds like the whipcrack of doom everytime
you fire it. Extremely loud.

Just as an FYI, Automags and Autocockers (made by different companies
despite the similarities in names) are both pretty quiet, as are Shockers
and Angels. Spyders, F4s and the several Tippman guns are middle of the
road. The AFT-85 (the AFT stands for Armed Forces Trainer; it's mostly
used by the police and the military) and the Rainmaker are rather loud.

>One particular gun (the shocker) is extremely quiet. It uses a
>celenoid <sp> to move the bolt instead of air pressure and thus
>uses a much lower pressure than other guns. It is pretty quiet
>relatively (ie you can hear it from a short distance away, but not
>from say 100meters.) It's also got a good range and ROF.

The Smart Parts "Shocker" will set you back about $700 for the gun alone.
And if you really want to run LP, you go with a HPA (compressed air or
nitrogen) system that is double regulated...you can get input pressure down
to something like 190psi (normal operating pressure for most guns is about
800psi). The HPA will set you back another $500 or so...

>Also, they are really more like a rifle in size than a pistol. There
>are pistol sized guns around (large pistol sized) but those guns are
>relatively low quality, with a short range, small magazine, and
>make a fair amount of noise. (there are exceptions to the quality)

The primary exception being the AGD Sydarm, which is primarily made by Air
Gun Designs as a police training weapon. You can let those cadets shoot
each other without having to use live ammo...my good friend, Eric A., is
LAPD and he still vividly remember getting popped with a Sydarm and how bad
it hurt (you can bet they chronoed above 300fps!). The Eagle and the DSDS
Slider are both examples of poor quality pistols.

Also, one thing to really keep in mind. A paintball to the eye is
guaranteed to destroy that eye (if it's not cyber). There is a very valid
reason why eye protection and face masks are required on all reputable
fields...suddenly the protective covers with Impact+1 have a use again...

Erik J.
Message no. 49
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:31:22 -0400
At 03:40 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> What's to stop a designer from coming up with some sort of new pellet
>> shape and including rifling on the barrel. If paintball pellets are made
>> from the same sort of stuff as gell caps, then shape them the same. Gel
>
>This shape would also, unfortunately make the paint balls harder to
>break, defeating the purpose. I'm sure if it was possible, the
>paintball industry would've done it by now. :)

Maybe.

The whole industry of paintball revolves around a ball shaped projectile;
there isn't much of an impetus to alter that shape since it works just fine
and would involve attempting to recast/reshape (pun intended) the entire
industry. Bad.

But that being said, I would *think* (Adam G., you're Mr. Physics, help me
out here) that a normal oblong shape (like a normal bullet) tends to end up
flipping end over end, which messes with accuracy, but increases lethality.

Okay, do that to paint"ball." It's only traveling at 300fps to maybe
400fps (for an shadowrunner version maybe), which is pretty low velocity.
I'd *guess* that it would start to tumble and therefore lose accuracy much
quicker than a 1000fps and heavier bullet. If true, this would make for a
far less accurate round than we have now.

That's just a guess anyway. Also figure that the balls are round because
we still don't really have a good reliable positive feed or "clip" system;
with the sole exception of the AFT-85 family and the AGD Sydarm, all
paintguns are *gravity* fed.

Good lord. What originally started as something ranchers used to mark
cattle that turned into a sport is now being considered/used in SR for
shadowrun ops...

Erik J.
Message no. 50
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:46:15 -0500
>Good lord. What originally started as something ranchers used to mark
>cattle that turned into a sport is now being considered/used in SR for
>shadowrun ops...

Who'd've thunk that someone wanting a non-lethal option would be so
popular in a game like this one.... <g>

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 51
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:28:29 -0700
>At 03:40 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>But that being said, I would *think* (Adam G., you're Mr. Physics, help me
>out here) that a normal oblong shape (like a normal bullet) tends to end up
>flipping end over end, which messes with accuracy, but increases lethality.

*Poof!* Someone invoked my Truename ... ;-)

Ballistics is an interesting science. It turns out that all bullets, I mean
all, end up tumbling end over end as soon as they hit the least little bit
obstruction (paper, leaves, etc). Having done so, they tumble about 180
degrees until they end up butt first. If you have a widely spaced enough
series of targets, you can watch the progression. (That or a very speedy
camera and a *lot* of film)

This process is accelerated by the position of the center of gravity,
geometry, aerodynamics of the bullet, and spin. It's possible to make a
round that doesn't stop tumbling. Those are called dumdum rounds, and
they're theoretically banned by the Hague convention.

Any time tumbling is involved, accuracy over long ranges decreases
dramatically. I may have mentioned this before, but the U.S. Army is
looking for a way to make rifle bullets accurate over 900 yards (by which
point they've dropped into the subsonic regime). Looking at the OICW (and
the French version PAPOP) I can see they did this by using a 20 mm round
(35 mm for PAPOP).

BTW, PAPOP has this neat feature where blast fragments from the 35 mm shell
can be set for forward dispersion or lateral dispersion. The soldier
chooses the setting and it is programmed into the round as it leaves the
barrel. Also, the sensors are at the tip of the barrel and there's a nice
flatscreen so you can view images around the corner. The 35 mm round, with
all the ingenious recoil compensation built into the rifle, is at the
limits of what soldiers can stand to fire comfortably.

>Okay, do that to paint"ball." It's only traveling at 300fps to maybe
>400fps (for an shadowrunner version maybe), which is pretty low velocity.
>I'd *guess* that it would start to tumble and therefore lose accuracy much
>quicker than a 1000fps and heavier bullet. If true, this would make for a
>far less accurate round than we have now.

Right, unless you want to add guidance fins and/or mobile nose cone and a
seeker package (a laser would do fine). Then it would be the attack of the
laser guided heat seeking DMSO/MAO/Hyper/LSD paintballs. ;-)

*Conjuring passes with hands* Okay, I've changed Hubble's constant, my
Truename is safe. ;-)

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 52
From: Jhary-a-Conel <Jhary-a-Conel@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:09:41 +0200
On 25 Aug 98, at 14:51, bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
[snip]
> #2. Who cares if it works now. I KNOW I can make an
> excuse or two for making it work in 71 years.
As long as it's better then your mathematical exercises... :-)


Jhary
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | "If you were going |
| / /_/ ____/ | Jhary-a-Conel@***.net | to be successful in |
| \___ __/ | ICQ#: 7 517 216 | the world of crime,you |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| needed a reputation |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | for honesty." |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ----(T.Pratchett)+
Message no. 53
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:31:30 -0400
At 03:28 PM 8/26/98 -0700, you wrote:

>*Poof!* Someone invoked my Truename ... ;-)

I knew that would get you...

And it seems that you basically validate my general position. At least
that's how I deciphered your message... ;-)

>Right, unless you want to add guidance fins and/or mobile nose cone and a
>seeker package (a laser would do fine). Then it would be the attack of the
>laser guided heat seeking DMSO/MAO/Hyper/LSD paintballs. ;-)

Someone tried to finned paintballs; didn't work with a damn. You might be
able to still get them from I&I Sports though.

>*Conjuring passes with hands* Okay, I've changed Hubble's constant, my
>Truename is safe. ;-)

Safe? Don't bet your life on it... ;-)

Thanks Mr. Physics.

Erik J.
Message no. 54
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:39:00 -0400
> *Conjuring passes with hands* Okay, I've changed Hubble's constant, my
> Truename is safe. ;-)

Huh?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 55
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:29:45 +0000
and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 26 Aug 98 at 17:28:

> Ah, based on this and other posts, such as from David B., I'm guessing this
> may be the reason why it's not done. Too much spin and it messes with
> accuracy. It may also be the fact that dimples may alter the structural
> integrity of the paintball, which would either make it too hard or too easy
> to break; both are very bad.

What about shaping them in the form of a raindrop? They're basically
aerodynamic and since the front is still round it won't cause any
excessive damage.

Oh ye gods of Physics, do you're worse :)


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 56
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:05:45 -0700
>What about shaping them in the form of a raindrop? They're basically
>aerodynamic and since the front is still round it won't cause any
>excessive damage.

Nice idea.

Basically, the Reynold's numbers for this regime (air=low viscocity,
bullets= high velocity) as opposed to, say, underwater are such that you're
nice streamlined teardrop will rather rapidly develop vortices and other
instabilities that will cause it to tumble. Once it tumbles, all bets are
off.

>Oh ye gods of Physics, do you're worse :)

Must ... change ... Gravitational ... constant ... there, now the Universe
is flat again. ;-)

>Karina & Martin Steffens
>chimerae@***.ie

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 57
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:05:14 EDT
Just another random thought;
Paintball grenades exist now, DMSO/whatever. And maybe even a mine like was
in a certain movie that I cannot remember the name of.
Message no. 58
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:10:16 -0400
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery

> Good lord. What originally started as something ranchers used to mark
> cattle that turned into a sport is now being considered/used in SR for
> shadowrun ops...

Air delivery systems are currently used in ops that emphasize
stealth. No reason why that wouldn't continue. :)


--Droopy
Message no. 59
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:25:45 -0500
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:05:45 -0700 Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
writes:
>>What about shaping them in the form of a raindrop? They're basically
>>aerodynamic and since the front is still round it won't cause any
>>excessive damage.

>Nice idea.
>
>Basically, the Reynold's numbers for this regime (air=low viscocity,
>bullets= high velocity) as opposed to, say, underwater are such that
you're
>nice streamlined teardrop will rather rapidly develop vortices and other
>instabilities that will cause it to tumble. Once it tumbles, all bets
are
>off.

I was thinking a similar thing but thought the problem would be keeping
it straight in the barrel. I think it would start out laying with one
edge flat against the barrel and then drag along the barrel when fired
and then the whole thing would go in to a tumble when it exists the
barrel.

IIRC, the original point of the post was to create a paintball gun with
decent range ... why not a bullet shaped pellet with a notched tip to
ensure breakage? (I just don't know WHEN said ensured breakage would
occur ... ;)

>>Oh ye gods of Physics, do you're worse :)

>Must ... change ... Gravitational ... constant ... there, now the
Universe
>is flat again. ;-)

LOL ... I don't know why, but ... LOL ;)

>>Karina & Martin Steffens
<SNIP Sig>

>--Adam
<SNIP Sig>

Adam, have you ever considered adding "The Mr. Wizard of ShadowRN to your
Sig?"

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 60
From: Andrew Gwilliam <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:30:06 +0100
Spike wrote:

> And verily, did M. Sean Martinez hastily scribble thusly...
> |
> |In a message dated 8/25/98 11:49:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> |bryan.covington@****.COM writes:
> |
> |> Is anyone using paintball guns to deliver DMSO cocktails?
> |
> |Wouldn't the DMSO disolve the paintball casings?
> |
>
> Depends what they're made of...
> DMSO is perfect for direct absorbtion through the skin.
> It doesn't mean that it'll disolve plastic....
>

Paintballs arent made of plastic.

> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
> | | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
> | Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
> | Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
> | Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
> |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 61
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:17:16 +0100
And verily, did Andrew Gwilliam hastily scribble thusly...
|> Depends what they're made of...
|> DMSO is perfect for direct absorbtion through the skin.
|> It doesn't mean that it'll disolve plastic....
|>
|
|Paintballs arent made of plastic.

I know that now. Someone pointed it out 2 days ago.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 62
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:42:17 -0400
At 08:05 PM 8/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Just another random thought;
> Paintball grenades exist now, DMSO/whatever. And maybe even a mine like was
>in a certain movie that I cannot remember the name of.

It's a thought, but modern non-explosive paint grenades are horrible
delivery systems. About the *only* thing they are effective at is
scaring/impressing newbies who don't know any better.

You would probably have a better effect with a paint grenade that had a
small explosive core, but blast radius would still likely be pretty small.
I think a company called Strange Ordnance makes something like them, but
they are banned nearly everywhere because of the explosives. Tippman makes
a non-explosive (read: water balloon) paint grenade that's fairly common,
but like I said, it sucks.

So I'd say paint grenades, explosive or not, would be poor DMSO/whatever
delivery systems.

Erik J.
Message no. 63
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:44:18 -0400
At 08:10 PM 8/27/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> Good lord. What originally started as something ranchers used to mark
>> cattle that turned into a sport is now being considered/used in SR for
>> shadowrun ops...
>
>Air delivery systems are currently used in ops that emphasize
>stealth. No reason why that wouldn't continue. :)

Well, the genesis of paintball is odd enough as it is. From marking cattle
to people running around in the woods firing guns that could maybe shoot
*once* every couple of dozens of seconds to the current arena-style games
that are becoming very popular with players shooting guns capable of better
than 10 balls per second!

But back to more on-topic, elaborate upon the "air delivery
systems...currently used in ops that emphasize stealth" please. I'm
curious how the modern military uses various sorts of airguns and I'm
pretty sure that it would have excellent SR possibilities.

Erik J.
Message no. 64
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:08:25 -0700
>Adam, have you ever considered adding "The Mr. Wizard of ShadowRN to your
>Sig?"

I hadn't and wouldn't "self-proclaim" anything. Since you suggested it it
would be interesting ... sort of like Gurth's "Guru" status back when he
and Damon Milliken had it conferred by a listmember ...

"Unofficial Mr. Wizard of ShadowRn" ... seems interesting ...

Thanks!

>D. Ghost
>(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
>o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 65
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:30:49 +0000
and thus did Adam Getchell speak on 27 Aug 98 at 12:05:

> Basically, the Reynold's numbers for this regime (air=low viscocity,
> bullets= high velocity) as opposed to, say, underwater are such that you're
> nice streamlined teardrop will rather rapidly develop vortices and other
> instabilities that will cause it to tumble. Once it tumbles, all bets are
> off.

<Clint Eastwood voice>
You know too much....
</Clint Eastwood voice>

:)

So the only way to get a longer range is using tranquillizer darts,
but IIRC they don't have a very long range either... Ah well, at
least they won't tumble.

This raindrop idea gave me another nasty idea:
Fill a small, high-sig drone completely with these little raindrop
DMSO-[insert your own favourites] and let them fly over the enemy.
Open little hatch and off they go! Alternatively you could pack them
in a timed rocket or something similar that doesn't accelerate too
fast for the little balls.

> >Oh ye gods of Physics, do you're worse :)
>
> Must ... change ... Gravitational ... constant ... there, now the Universe
> is flat again. ;-)

Why didn't you change this Reynold-dude's numbers instead? :P


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 66
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:55:17 -0700
>Why didn't you change this Reynold-dude's numbers instead? :P

They already change based on velocity, viscosity, and dimension. ;-P

>Martin Steffens
>chimerae@***.ie

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 67
From: Tomus Cone <brother_1@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:53:26 PDT
>This raindrop idea gave me another nasty idea:
>Fill a small, high-sig drone completely with these little raindrop
>DMSO-[insert your own favourites] and let them fly over the enemy.
>Open little hatch and off they go! Alternatively you could pack them
>in a timed rocket or something similar that doesn't accelerate too
>fast for the little balls.
>
Anyone else think of lawn darts?




Vote Tom Cone for President in 2012.


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 68
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 05:09:01 -0500
>>This raindrop idea gave me another nasty idea:
>>Fill a small, high-sig drone completely with these little raindrop
>>DMSO-[insert your own favourites] and let them fly over the enemy.
>>Open little hatch and off they go! Alternatively you could pack them
>>in a timed rocket or something similar that doesn't accelerate too
>>fast for the little balls.

I thought that the aerial sprayer (cropduster) drone in Rigger2 was
generally understood to be in the rigger catalog so that you could use it
to spray DMSO, or insecticide?
Message no. 69
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Alternate DMSO delivery
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:03:00 +0000
and thus did John Dukes speak on 30 Aug 98 at 5:09:

> >>This raindrop idea gave me another nasty idea:
> >>Fill a small, high-sig drone completely with these little raindrop
> >>DMSO-[insert your own favourites] and let them fly over the enemy.
> >>Open little hatch and off they go! Alternatively you could pack them
> >>in a timed rocket or something similar that doesn't accelerate too
> >>fast for the little balls.
>
> I thought that the aerial sprayer (cropduster) drone in Rigger2 was
> generally understood to be in the rigger catalog so that you could use it
> to spray DMSO, or insecticide?

That should work even better... Darn, I wish they would hurry up a
bit shipping me R2...



Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

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