| From: | steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: Alternative Totems (LONG) |
| Date: | Tue, 27 Jul 1993 01:33:21 EST |
]
] Could non-animals be deserving of 'totem' status? Ie, specifically, could
] the ancient gods and legends serve as a focus for ones's spell casting?
] Could I be a shaman of Thor or Zeus?
Non-animal? Such as Moon, Sea, Sun, Oak?? I do not say this to
insult you R.H. just to point out that FASA has already admitted
to non-American Indian, Non-animal shamanic power icons...
] _I_ would tend to say yes, but then most of you figure I'm a munchkin
] bastard anyways :).
Hey Rob, I would never call you a bastard..... :)
Okay, I have collected the subsequent postings on the subject. Before I
put my minimal exposure in Religious Philosophy to use (Gee, knew that
degree I received in Philosophy could be useful for something!), I want
to preface all my comments with a disclaimer that my mother was invited
leave the Catholic Church when I was young so if I get a bit acidic with
regard to current religion I apologize....
To quote The Deb Decker:
]
] YEA: Since, in our last discussion of totems, we determined that they
] require worship to count as totems, they ought to be, since they were
] worshipped.
Interesting point, sorta along the lines of the "Power of
the Myth" (as in Gator). But I must ask- is there some level
of worship necessary- ie a quota of followers before the
celestial being will issue you an Official Totem ID? If the
power of worship was sufficient, would it not then also be linked
to the power of the 'totem' in question. Could Satanists bring
about his power? Is then the accurate measure of a totem's power
is foundation of followers? Also, would such power be transferable
to more 'mundane' individuals? Once again David Koresh comes to
mind. But more importantly what about the Reverend Moon (?) who
weds thousands of his follower each in Madison Square Garden; would
their religios fevor for him bestoy power and/or additional power?
On a more abstract level, would this not bring the totem down to
man- since his/her/it power was based entirely on the benefice
of mankind? Some portion of me thinks this decreases the power
of the totem...
] NAY: They must be based on something REAL and NATURAL, such as animals,
] the ocean, and celestial objects. Since the gods aren't real in Shadowrun,
] they can't be totems.
But a great deal of what these 'totems' represent are the
facets of mankind- Rat the thief, etc. A great deal of the
descriptive traits reflect mankind, his attitudes, etc. Granted
a cat may clean itself incessantly, but not out of vanity (I
think...?). Also, if they must be based on something Natural,
how does this account for the Toxic spirits? Would we then
equate the destructive power of a toxic shaman to the destructive
forces of nature.
Lastly, would you then consider mankind natural? If so, what of
mankind's traits? Since most of the totem traits describe some
aspect of the animal's action in terms of human qualities, could
you then impose mankind's personalities since they are Real and
Natural? Many of the mythic 'gods' represented real and natural
facets of man and other animals- the family unit, affection for
one's mate, the hunt, etc. So could we not then attribute things
such as Love as real and natural, and thus bring about a totem
of Love? (Aphrodite or some other such person right?)
] However, since gods usually represented one or more things, one could
] argue that their worship was proxy worship of existing totems. Worship
] of Apollo, f'r instance, is attention to the Sun totem.
Perhaps it is merely some greater Celestial force that is the
same thing known under many names- how many Death Gods are
there?
To quote Robert A. Hayden
]
] And this brings up another point, and I don't want this to nosedive into a
] religious discuss.
]
Toooooooooooo Late :)
] Does Dog exist because he exists, or does Dog exists because of the
] believe in Dog?
] What is a totem?
] Is it tangible or....
I would probably have to lay down a simple claim. Dog does not
exist. "Dog" is merely a limited schema (set of references) for
understanding a path followed that allows for greater focus and
personal insight, thereby allowing for greater utilization of
ones own talents (ie magic).
]
] If 10,000 shamans came together and followed the great totem MTV, would
] they still be able to wield magic?
]
Yes... and I think Mark Goodman should be there #1 prophet! :)
] No thwaps, I'm serious.
]
Well you seem to love to send me Banner size THWAPS Rob, but I
shall refrain. Yes, I think if the followers of MTV could
adopt a 'path' to follow, a path that help them orient their daily
lives and allows them to accept the Unacceptable, and gives
them greater understanding of what they are, then yes they could
focus more upon their own 'talents' greater and wield magic.
To quote David R. Henry
]
] Which leaves us with the Christ Shaman archetype. I say +2 dice for Healing
] and Combat spells (Old T. Jehovah was a vicious little guy), and -2 for
] Illusions (the Xtian God is supposed to be Truth, after all). Spirits are
] Hearth.
]
I think Christ is a bit too complex for adaption, but would he
be a Combat oriented- the loving savior of mankind? I'd disagree
If I had pin it down to I would add manipulation- the great
bringer of change in both society and water/wine, walking on
water, etc. And yeah illusion and deceit belong to the guy with
the Horns (no, not the troll in the next apartment over!) :)
To quote Chad S. Mawson
]
] IMHO, I believe that totems exist because of an underlying belief held
] by a group of people. My first (off the top of my head) reason is the
] 'Gator Shaman. It exists as a Rural and an Urban. URBAN? I thought,
] but then the book explains since people believe (i.e. popular myth)
] that Alligators exist in city sewers, that 'Gator can be an Urban
] totem. I also like other people's views that since Apollo was an Icon
] for the Sun, that there could be Apollo Shaman's. The only difference
] between a Sun Shaman, and an Apollo Shaman, IMO would be the way in
] which the Shaman goes about learning/casting spells, and living life
] in general.
]
Two thumbs up! especially that last part about "living life
in general" !
]
] I know you're serious, I've thought about this quite a bit too. An
] MTV totem though? Hmmm, I guess if it could be shown that lots of
] people believe in MTV as a "way of life" then sure MTV Shamans. BUT,
] I think that more than just the Shaman's must believe that MTV exists
] as an entity. Does that make sense? I hope so.
]
Deep Breath. Okay... MTv may not have the characteristics you
crave, but Television in general most certainly does. I just
finished a research proposal on the detrimental effects of
television on senator evaluations. There are *several* studies
indicating that people do lose track of reality and fantasy.
Television does tell them what to think (perhaps not on the
level that Iyengar would hope) about. One example would be
"Murphy Brown" and Dan Quayle- people were attributing this
fictional character with equal standing of the VP of the US.
I do not say this as a supporter of quayle, nor do I wish to
get political, I only wish to point out that who tirade
tween them was used a reference for candiate selection. More
to the point of my paper- older generations evaluate the
family policy issues in accordance with the "Father knows
best" criteria- so I would definitely claim TV does produce
a 'way of life'.
So yes I think television may provide enough "mythic" references-
as in after enough time passes there could be "Batman" followers
who are "Owl" like in nature. :)
To quote Robert A. Hayden
]
] But, that brings up the question, how is a person 'found' by their totem
] when they express their magic ability? Why did Dog choose Sam Verner and
] not Eagle?
]
I think they are 'found' as they schematically place the events
of their lives and their habitual responses (ie Berner's repulsion
to killing) into a cognitve frame and name it- Dog, etc..
Perhaps, if the totems demonstrated a manifestation to those
who do not follow them (ie A Great Wolf decends and save countless
thousands of its people with non-follower witnesses) than you
could attribute a definite independent sentience to it, til then
no dice.
]
] Any no, I am not advocating ANYONE posting an MTV totem nor am I
] necessarilyu advocating any totems outside of the normal Animal types.
] But what I am wondering is is what exactly makes a totem a totem.
]
Why the hell not? If you can take the rules to a current totem
and redefine it in terms that are acceptible and balanced, then
non-animal totems should work fine. If I had a shaman who fo
followed all the guidelines of Owl, except he followed a path
based on a great hero his Grandfather always talked about
(aka Batman) than it should be acceptible
To quote Robert A. Hayden
]
] How is a shaman any different than a priest? (not a flame :-)
]
Off the top of my head, I think one is a follower of a path
and the other is a social recruiter/leader for those of a
path. Generally speaking, shamans as portrayed do not hit the
masses up with proclaimations, intimidation, pursuasion, etc.
They follow the path for their own good.
A priest on the other tends to spread the word of their god, they
seek recruitment, and maintain morale of the faithful. It is not
my intention to portray them purely negatively...
Shaman- follows the path for the benefit of the "self"
Priest- follows the path for the benefit of the "flock"
To quote The Deb Decker
]
] Now, a tangent question is: How DO Christians and other religions view
] magic? How do relate "the blessed" who can heal with the wage mages who
] steal? If healing is a blessing, then how come any magically active person
] can take a class in it and make a fast buck on the street? I think an
] exploration of how magic affects theology would be a much better story for
] Shadowrun than the novels that have been published to date (let's face it:
] da books are written for kids 5-10 years youger than most of us).
]
] I think a Monsignor who discovers he is magically active is equally if not
] more dramatic than a huma who becomes a troll. But then, you all know I think
] humans have all the role-playing material you'd ever need.
]
Actually an excellent reference might be the Deryni series
with the psychics and the church. I have not had the opportunity
to read the series but it was explained to me a bit and seems
appropriate- the church, the 'gifted' and their interaction.
Lastly, I have left a hideous place for the Catholic church
in my games. I would spew out the plotline but a few of my
players also monitor this group. If anyone is really interested
drop me a line. In fact, I think a few folks already have when
they requested plotline ideas. I know I sent it out to
Woodsy the Owl Shaman but he has become a true follower of
Owl -silent... eh Woodsy? :)
Enough of my philosophic babble...
Faithfully Yours....
Da Minotaur
-+- Believe in me and make me a God -+-
