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From:	BrotherJustice50@*.com BrotherJustice50@*.com
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:58:49 EDT

Message no. 1 Ok, I have CC and have read through most of it. Here are my questions.

1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to each gun if
they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand gun on one turn, and two
shots from the left hand gun on the next turn. And in this scenario, if the user has a
smartlink in each hand, can the benefits still apply, if the guns are not being utilized
at the same time.

2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the off hand? Or even
if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?

3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class weapons can be fired
using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside, could a character, per the rules, use
a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not the short barrel of the Defiance from SR3)?

If you can give me some page number references, I would love you all to death. Real
incentive, isn't it? :)

From:	Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:51:30 -0700

Message no. 2 At BrotherJustice50@***.com, 02:58 PM 13/04/00 wrote:
>Ok, I have CC and have read through most of it. Here are my questions.
>
>1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to
>each gun if they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand
>gun on one turn, and two shots from the left hand gun on the next turn.
>And in this scenario, if the user has a smartlink in each hand, can the
>benefits still apply, if the guns are not being utilized at the same time.
>
>2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the
>off hand? Or even if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?

There should be a +4 or +2 or +40 modifier to the offhand. I don't have my
CC copy yet, so I can't double check. But there should eb a modifer, imo. ;)

Of course, ymmv, and you could rule whatever you want. My house rule for
offhand is +4, +2 for the trained hand. So each hand firing a weapon is
rolled seperately.

>3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class
>weapons can be fired using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside,
>could a character, per the rules, use a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not
>the short barrel of the Defiance from SR3)?

Well, the only problem I really see with a sawed off shotgun is the number
of rounds it will fire. Reloading both weapons when they run out is going
to be at LEAST double, and I'd impose a higher penalty, just cause the
shotguns are bigger than most pistols. ;)

>If you can give me some page number references, I would love you all to
>death. Real incentive, isn't it? :)

Well. That about give ME the incentive. (not!) ;)

--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
Vrianna - http://www.eternalconclave.com/AC
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.

From:	BrotherJustice50@*.com BrotherJustice50@*.com
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Fri Apr 14 16:02:34 2000

Message no. 3 In a message dated Thu, 13 Apr 2000 2:58:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BrotherJustice50
writes:

> Ok, I have CC and have read through most of it. Here are my questions.
>
> 1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to each gun
if they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand gun on one turn, and two
shots from the left hand gun on the next turn. And in this scenario, if the user has a
smartlink in each hand, can the benefits still apply, if the guns are not being utilized
at the same time.
>
> 2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the off hand? Or
even if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?
>
> 3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class weapons can be
fired using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside, could a character, per the
rules, use a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not the short barrel of the Defiance from SR3)?
>
> If you can give me some page number references, I would love you all to death. Real
incentive, isn't it? :)

I posted this a little while back. Got a bit of a response, but not really what I was
looking for. Anybody else out there that can give a hand? If not, I'm gonna take it to
FASA this weekend and see if I can get a response. Anybody?

From:	The Dave minushuman308@*******.com
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:48:28 GMT

Message no. 4 >In a message dated Thu, 13 Apr 2000 2:58:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>BrotherJustice50 writes:

>1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to
>each gun if they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand
>gun on one turn, and two shots from the left hand gun on the next turn. And
>in this scenario, if the user has a smartlink in each hand, can the
>benefits still apply, if the guns are not being utilized at the same time.

I had a troll named 8-Ball who dualed Ingram Smartguns. He was a righty but
always shot from both hands. We assumed since he was firing at the same
target at the same time that the +2 modifier for a second gun was
irrelevant. As to smartlinks, we figured he could only interface one gun
with one smartlink, so he only got the right hand bonus. If you're not
firing at the same time, I guess you'd need two SL ports and a way to switch
between them.

>2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the off
>hand? Or even if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?

8-Ball always had a left hand +2 modifier, even if he was firing with only
the left - it just makes sense that your aiming is going to be off with a
weak hand.

>3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class
>weapons can be fired using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside,
>could a character, per the rules, use a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not
>the short barrel of the Defiance from SR3)?

No clue. It makes sense that you can't walk around with an assault rifle in
each hand, so I'd say anything you can fire with one hand would work. As to
sawed offs, it depends how short it's sawed off. IRL I have a Remington 870
with a pistol grip and an 18" barrel. It's 28" long and I still have a
tough time trying to hold it in one hand, much less fire the damn thing
(pistol grips RACK your palm). I'd say no to the sawed off and pistol for
anyone with STR under 4 or 5, and even then with a modifier, maybe +2.

The Dave

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From:	BrotherJustice50@*.com BrotherJustice50@*.com
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:55:34 EDT

Message no. 5 In a message dated Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:49:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "The
Dave" <minushuman308@*******.com> writes:

>
> >1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to
> >each gun if they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand
> >gun on one turn, and two shots from the left hand gun on the next turn. And
> >in this scenario, if the user has a smartlink in each hand, can the
> >benefits still apply, if the guns are not being utilized at the same time.
>
> I had a troll named 8-Ball who dualed Ingram Smartguns. He was a righty but
> always shot from both hands. We assumed since he was firing at the same
> target at the same time that the +2 modifier for a second gun was
> irrelevant. As to smartlinks, we figured he could only interface one gun
> with one smartlink, so he only got the right hand bonus. If you're not
> firing at the same time, I guess you'd need two SL ports and a way to switch
> between them.
>
> >2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the off
> >hand? Or even if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?
>
> 8-Ball always had a left hand +2 modifier, even if he was firing with only
> the left - it just makes sense that your aiming is going to be off with a
> weak hand.
>
> >3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class
> >weapons can be fired using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside,
> >could a character, per the rules, use a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not
> >the short barrel of the Defiance from SR3)?
>
> No clue. It makes sense that you can't walk around with an assault rifle in
> each hand, so I'd say anything you can fire with one hand would work. As to
> sawed offs, it depends how short it's sawed off. IRL I have a Remington 870
> with a pistol grip and an 18" barrel. It's 28" long and I still have a
> tough time trying to hold it in one hand, much less fire the damn thing
> (pistol grips RACK your palm). I'd say no to the sawed off and pistol for
> anyone with STR under 4 or 5, and even then with a modifier, maybe +2.
>

This is partially helpful, but I'm still trying to see if anyone can help me per the new
CC rules, not so much house rules from previously. But I guess due to the lack of
responses, that everybody else is as clueless as I am.

From:	Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:40:04 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 6 On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 BrotherJustice50@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated Thu, 13 Apr 2000 2:58:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
BrotherJustice50 writes:
>
> > Ok, I have CC and have read through most of it. Here are my questions.
> >
> > 1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to each
gun if they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand gun on one turn, and
two shots from the left hand gun on the next turn. And in this scenario, if the user has a
smartlink in each hand, can the benefits still apply, if the guns are not being utilized
at the same time.

I'd say no, although I would a apply a +2 modifier for the offhand,
reduced by ambidexterity as normal. I had a character who fired two
Ruger Warhawks, a single shot weapon, fireing both each phase (one per simple
action), and he just suffered the offhand penalty

> >
> > 2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the off
hand? Or even if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?

Fields of Fire had it at +2, IIRC, which is what I use. FOF also had
an interesting idea about an Ambidexterity skill, which didn't work as
it was meant IMHO, but is an interesting idea. For example, you can
teach yourself to wright with your offhand, can you not? Or shoot a
gun perhaps? I allow characters to learn an Ambidexterity (Skill)
skill, that functions as the edge (each 2 points cancelling out a point
of offhand penalty) with that skill eg Amidexterity (Pistols) or
Amidexterity (Edged Weapons). Having Ambidexterity (Pistols) at 8 would
allow someone the same benefits as the 8 point edge, but with just
pistols. Counts as active skill to learn.

> > 3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class weapons
can be fired using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside, could a character, per
the rules, use a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not the short barrel of the Defiance from
SR3)?

Fired using amidexterity? I think you mean just fired with one in each
hand. Anyone can do it, ambidexterity just makes it easier.

I would saw that each wepon should be a pair. i.e. 2 pistols, two
smg's, two sawnoff shotguns. This is because of the different weights
and recoil and fireing methods different guns have. Also bear in mind
that they must fire in the same mode (CC p94).
I would allow it to be done but with an additional +2 for each
attack, which is not reduced by ambidexterity (unless you had the 8
point edge and an 8 point skill. Hmmmmm..... munchy time!)

I also have some as yet unresolved questions regarding 2 firearm usage

1. Different targets. Locic tells me it should be more difficult to
shoot at two separate targets, but not impossible. But then I am not
ambidextrous, so maybe it's not that hard. FASA says nothing about it
that I can find. Assuming the current rules stand, maybe just the +2
modifier for multiple targets for each target? i.e. an additional +2
on both? (just cos I want to be able to do that that guy on p.101 of
SR3 with one of my characters :)

2. Targeting systems. I see why using imaging scopes would be
a problem, but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to use smartlinks
and laser sights when using a second firearm. Indeed it would make it
easier I feel. With laser sights, having a sight on each gun should
work fine, maybe different coloured lasers? Smartlinks would be more difficult
laser sights. If using the cyber version you would need a full
system, plus the following (using M&M p.33)

- an extra induction pad (or datajack)
- an extra ballistics processor (Standard or level 2)
- a second eye display(with a different coloured dot?)
- you could use the same limted simsense rig as the first system.
- rangefinders - cannot use the cybered version, must have one attached
to each gun if you want to be able to fire at separate targets.

If using smartgoggles, you would need to upgrade the goggles to accept
and procces two signals, at double the cost and weight?

out of interest the guy on P101 of SR3 (one of santa's elves i
think) I recon that he would have the following modifiers (assuming no
smartgun link)

- short range tn# = 4
- two weapons +2
- multiple targets +2 to second target (or both if using my rules)
- called shot to head +4
- attacker falling (+2?)

For a total of tn# 12 and 14, or just 14 for both. If you had
ambedexterity 8 and a double smartlink II system installed, it
would be slightly more manageable at tn# 8 (and 6).
Still not easy. But damn cool.

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...If you're robbing a bank, and your pants suddenly fall down, I think it's
okay to laugh, and to let the hostages laugh too, because life is funny.

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:05:05 -0500

Message no. 7 From: BrotherJustice50@***.com <BrotherJustice50@***.com>

:Ok, I have CC and have read through most of it. Here are my questions.
:
:1. When using two guns in each hand, are the +2 modifiers still applied to
each gun if they are fired separately. As in 2 shots from the right hand gun
on one turn, and two shots from the left hand gun on the next turn. And in
this scenario, if the user has a smartlink in each hand, can the benefits
still apply, if the guns are not being utilized at the same time.

That's not really using 2 firearms- that is using one gun while holding
something (which happens to be a gun) in the other hand. I think if you
were holding a toy bunny in one hand and shooting with the other, there
would be no special modifier, and laser sites and smartlinks would work as
normal. I don't see why replacing that cute fluffy toy bunny with another
gun changes things.
You can get a smartlink induction pad in either or both hands, using
M&M's smartlink rules, and this seems exactly what it is intended for.

:2. Using the above example, is there some penalty to using a gun in the off
hand? Or even if only one gun is being used, but used in the off hand?

At the openting of the CC section on ambidexterity and 2 weapon combat
(p. 94), it mentions that (normally) each character has a superior hand, and
tasks using the inferior hand would have a +1 to +4 penalty, "depending on
situation". That would apply when shooting with your "off hand" alone, I'd
think, regardles of what you were holding in the other hand. If you
actually want to DO something with the other hand, that requires various
special rules (ambidexterity, off hand wepons skills, 2 handed ranged
attacks).

:3. Finally, I believe the rules stated that only SMG and pistol class
weapons can be fired using ambidexterity. Is this correct? Realism aside,
could a character, per the rules, use a pistol and sawed off shotgun (not
the short barrel of the Defiance from SR3)?

That's what the rules say in the case of 2 wepon ranged attacks, yes.
Shotguns are intended for 2 handed use. Sawing the barrel down short
doesn't change that fact. But yes, you COULD fire it one handed, and hold
(but not use) something else (a pistol, or even another shotgun) in the
other hand.
You could not use that combination (pistol / shotgun) simultaniously,
but you could fire them seperately, each from one hand, each as a simple
action. You would suffer the CC rules on Holding Weapons (p.99), which
gives a +2 penalty when a firearm intended for two handed use is used one
handed.
And yes, "Trolls are not subject to this modifier", but I don't
think
that means they could use two shotguns (or assault rifles, etc) at the same
time per the ambidexterity rules. Then again, I just got done reading the
"Feng Shui" rules, and watching "Hardboiled", so if any of my new
players
(wohoo, I think I found some) want to try this, I think I'd let them. I'd
still hit them with the "carrying heavy weapons" rule if they fired both at
once, though. ;-)

Mongoose

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From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:59:05 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 8 "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
> And yes, "Trolls are not subject to this modifier", but I don't
> think
> that means they could use two shotguns (or assault rifles, etc) at the same
> time per the ambidexterity rules. Then again, I just got done reading the
> "Feng Shui" rules, and watching "Hardboiled", so if any of my new
players
> (wohoo, I think I found some) want to try this, I think I'd let them. I'd
> still hit them with the "carrying heavy weapons" rule if they fired both at
> once, though. ;-)

Hard Boiled is the best plotless action movie ever made, IMHO.
:)
Feng Shui is disturbing brainstorming material. The first SR
character I put together after reading the Feng Shui and Hong Kong
Action Theater rules was a washed up actor/action star physical
magicion recovering from various addictions, with a couple of spells
like levitate (for wuxia films), personal bullet barrier, detect
cameras, and detect guns, and powers like leaping and an Aptitude in
Athletics. The reason I considered him washed up was an unwillingness
to get a Simrig installed. A lot of fun to play, though I really
wished I could have gotten the concept to work as just a magician or
just a physad.

Mark

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Ambidexterity Question
Date:	Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:47:41 -0500

Message no. 9 From: Sebastian Wiers
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 12:05 AM

> I think if you were holding a toy bunny in one hand and shooting
> with the other, there would be no special modifier, and laser sites
> and smartlinks would work as normal. I don't see why replacing
> that cute fluffy toy bunny with another gun changes things.

"Put the bunny back in the box."

> You can get a smartlink induction pad in either or both hands,
> using M&M's smartlink rules, and this seems exactly what it is
> intended for.

Bingo. That's it exactly, as I read it. (Of course, that extra
induction pad also comes in handy when you've got a smartlinked
bow...which I think of as kinda twink, but that could just be me.)

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

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