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Message no. 1
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Ammo
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 10:38:25 -0700
Flechette rounds, as I belive Quiktek is tring to present them, are thin,
needle-like flechettes that do impaling damage. I don't think they should
take "the best of Ballistic or Impact" because of the way they work and the
way I perceive armor to work.

The ballistic rating of armor is, I assume, based off of the concept of modern
ballistic armor, meaning that it is a high-strength weave of material that
spreads the energy of the round around a larger area. Impaling weapons
(needles,lasers, flechettes) will go right through the weave because they are
so thin.
That's one reason a different armor rating is used for melee weapons; swords
andknives would actually cut through ballistic easier than a bullet, provided
it
was sharp enough.
I'm not sure about Impact armor but I assume it's got something to do with
padding and plates of material, rather than a weave.

The point is (literally!) that thin, high velocity projectiles will poke
throughthe weave like needles through a knit sweater, while normal bullets
splat
against it and fail to penetrate, like a pencil or dowel being pressed against
the sweater.


J Roberson
Message no. 2
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Ammo
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:15:47 -0700
One Question: When you say that the victim of a Napalm Gel round only has
armor to resist the attack, what is your reasoning? An why did you say that?
What else would I be wearing besides my armor. Unless you mean the obvious fact
that Combat Pool can't be used.

J Roberson
Message no. 3
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Ammo
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 12:33:39 CDT
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU

> One Question: When you say that the victim of a Napalm Gel round only has
> armor to resist the attack, what is your reasoning? An why did you say that?
> What else would I be wearing besides my armor. Unless you mean the obvious
> fact that Combat Pool can't be used.
>
> J Roberson

Your right, it was late and I wasn't thinking clearly. I guess I meant no
Combat Pool. Anyway, besides that, what do you think?

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
Message no. 4
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Ammo
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 23:25:01 -0500
>I think we've been here before...
It's an update. I came across the original file and saw it didn't have
the corrections I made to it.

>Duh!
Be Nice :)

>>If you stage it to nothing using body dice, you take the external (4M)
>>explosion using body, remaining combat pool, and external bioware such as
>>dermal armor and orthoskin to. Impact armor protects.

>Wait a minute! Your saying that even if I reduce the damage to nothing that
>I still take damage. I feel that M-Word creeping up.

>And you resist the external explosion with body and remaining combat pool!
>What remaining combat pool! You just used it to resist the attack in the first
>place! And you just used your Body to reduce the damage to nothing, yet you
>have to roll again!

Not neccesarily. You still have to resist damage, but you get all of
your body dice to roll as well as remaining combat pool (not to exceed
body). Not everyone burns all their combat pool resisting damage. Few
CAN. For instance, Jaez's Combat pool is about 8 or 9; Her Body is
4. So she can roll 4 CP to resist the ballistic attack entirely;
4 more to resist ballistic damage; and all 8 to resist explosive
damage (target 4, average 4 successes, takes a Light).

So:
4 dice to completely dodge.
4 more to resist ballistic damage and take a 4M explosion.
8 dice to resist either the 4S or 4M explosion, depending
on where the bullet went.

>You can be killed by a bullet that never penetrates your armor.
True. But I needed a way to distinguish penetration vs non-penetration.
An alternative would be to replace "staged to nothing" with "staged
to
base damage".

I didn't design this as a new toy for players or to abuse them with. I designed
it to better reflect what an explosive round does. Thus the high availability
and cost. . .strictly enforced in my campaign. And I haven't had any problems
with it so far. Game Designer Excuse "Playability vs Reality". Mea Culpa.

>Put your GURPS High Tech away and come back to Shadowrun! If +1 Power is too
>little for an explosive round (actually I agree about that) why don't you just
>make it something like +1 Damage Level instead of making a overcomplicated and
>munchkin rules system?

Well, as you recall, I had some resistance to Shadowrun at first, so don't be
surprised if I prefer GURPS :). +1 wound level doesn't quite cut it; it's not
too different from the very legal Hollow Point Round, and doesn't reflect
how much more (IMO) devastating an explosive detonating in your kidney is
than an expanded piece of shrapnel; the former also induces shock reverberations
that can disrupt a lot of other body parts (or cyberware).


J Roberson
Message no. 5
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 21:13:22 -0700
>> Not neccesarily. You still have to resist damage, but you get all of
>> your body dice to roll as well as remaining combat pool (not to exceed
>> body). Not everyone burns all their combat pool resisting damage. Few
>> CAN. For instance, Jaez's Combat pool is about 8 or 9; Her Body is
>> 4. So she can roll 4 CP to resist the ballistic attack entirely;
>> 4 more to resist ballistic damage; and all 8 to resist explosive
>> damage (target 4, average 4 successes, takes a Light).

Error, Error! You can use as many combat pool dice as you wish to reduce
damage.

>You can be killed by a bullet that never penetrates your armor.

>> True. But I needed a way to distinguish penetration vs non-penetration.
>> An alternative would be to replace "staged to nothing" with
"staged to
>> base damage".

This still seems to be a fudge answer. One single damage modifier would be
the best way to go. With a resist damage twice thing, especially with the
ability to use combat pool twice, this is a Combat Pool Drainer, and thus a
tool for Munchkins. High availability and cost are no substitute for well
written rules.

If you like GURPS better play GURPS :) As the good Doctor about the rules he
uses.

See Ya in Shadows, "I can count the number of days I've worked
Jason J Carter since graduation on one hand." - ME!
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU
Message no. 6
From: ewok slayer <jclegg@******.FSC.MASS.EDU>
Subject: Ammo?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:44:43 EST
I have on little problem with uranium ammo. One (1) molocule
of uranium, inhaled, is fatal. Touching it will not be very nice either.
You don't want to know what it will do to youre hand before it kills you.
Would you want to fire any bullets like that?

* Darkstar
Message no. 7
From: SHADE <MFN6430@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ammo?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:50:23 -0600
> I have on little problem with uranium ammo. One (1) molocule
>of uranium, inhaled, is fatal. Touching it will not be very nice either.
>You don't want to know what it will do to youre hand before it kills you.
>Would you want to fire any bullets like that?
>
> * Darkstar

One molecule of uranium will not do squat to you. One molecule of
anything will do nothing to you. There is more uranium in the air you breath
than that. It takes a "large" concentration to do any damage to you due to
radiation, or at least long term exposure. Most shells are made of depleated
uranium anyway. Coat the bullet with a thin layer of lead, and the radiation
could not leak out. I will admit that carrying around a belt of straight
uranium ammo would not be good idea, but then neither is carrying around a
belt of explosive ammo.
SHADE
Message no. 8
From: Eric Christopher Trager <etrager@***.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ammo?
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 02:51:38 -0500
On Wed, 23 Feb 1994, ewok slayer wrote:

> I have on little problem with uranium ammo. One (1) molocule
> of uranium, inhaled, is fatal. Touching it will not be very nice either.
> You don't want to know what it will do to youre hand before it kills you.

What exactly does skin contact w/ uranium bring? Inhalation? All that
chem, and I had no idea it was so poisonous...
Message no. 9
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: AMMO
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 12:00:34 +0100
Why do SR guns have such small CLIPS?

modern guns have 15-20 rounds at least, with caseless ammo
this'll be at least 30 rounds...

And thats just with conventional CLIPS in the grip.

What about top feed for caseless like the FN P90? thats got 50
rds of rifle ammo in a clear plastic box on top.

Then there is the CALICO
world record for most bullets in a pistol? the Calico M.100p has
103 rounds of .22LR
The calico 9mm is a STATE OF THE ART handgun, and has a helix
mag as big as a beer can mounted on top. It holds 50 rounds of
9mm cased. the new version has a 100 round helix mag
The mag has to be reloaded with a hopper/crank device, but 50
rounds can be reloaded in 10 seconds flat

And the NEW calico SMG has the same mag...100 rds of 9mm in an
automatic weapon.
And before you say it'd be heavy and clumsy, they replaced all
non load bearing parts with lightweight composites....
It weighs the same as a normal SMG with a 32 rd mag

This is the future of firearms....
why isn't it in SR yet?

CHOPPER
thanks to the 'Flipper is dead' thinktank and Janes
Message no. 10
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:29:35 -0600
CHOPPER writes:
> Why do SR guns have such small CLIPS?

Enough with the "clips!" It's a <CENSORED> magazine! Besides, if you have
to spend that much ammo in combat, you're no longer a shadowrunner. You're
a fugitive from the law AND a bad tactician. You choose which is worse.

> And the NEW calico SMG has the same mag...100 rds of 9mm in an...

The M-950? It's not that new.

> This is the future of firearms....
> why isn't it in SR yet?

What, a gun camera showing targetting data directly on the retina and
influencing fine motor control to improve accuracy for a reasonable price
isn't enough for you?

OK, as much as I've ranted, raved and drooled on here about ammo and
firearms/cannon in the past, I have to play devil's advocate. Shadowrun
is a fantasy game in which the DLoH has stated that it should be both played
and run like a movie. Lots of detail is left out to make the game a better
role-playing game and fun to play for most everyone. Sure, folks with
knowledge in certain areas (weapons, computers, physics, etc...) will be
unsatisfied with FASA's vague explanation of things. If you can accept
that a +3 sword in AD&D is just that, what's so hard about accepting
that one type of pistol does X damage and carries N amount of ammo in it's
X size magazine, or that a computer holds whatever amount of mega/giga-pulses.
Who knows how big a pulse is and who cares, as long as rules for it's
feasable use are given.

--
Legion, the one and many...
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurrences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --
Message no. 11
From: Matthew McCormick <mcormick@*****.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:38:41 -0700
> =chopper

> Why do SR guns have such small CLIPS?
>
> modern guns have 15-20 rounds at least, with caseless ammo
> this'll be at least 30 rounds...

Note that in Fields of Fire that they give rules for larger
Magazine sizes based on caseless ammo. Also, caseless round don't give a
nearly 100% decrease in size as in your example above. I think the stat
they use in FOF is 30%

> And thats just with conventional CLIPS in the grip

> What about top feed for caseless like the FN P90? thats got 50
> rds of rifle ammo in a clear plastic box on top.

Check out Fields of Fire, one of the Ingram SMG's and three of the
Ares weapons have top loading magazines as well as rotary bolt mechanisms like
H&K's G11.


> Then there is the CALICO
> world record for most bullets in a pistol? the Calico M.100p has
> 103 rounds of .22LR
> The calico 9mm is a STATE OF THE ART handgun, and has a helix
> mag as big as a beer can mounted on top. It holds 50 rounds of
> 9mm cased. the new version has a 100 round helix mag
> The mag has to be reloaded with a hopper/crank device, but 50
> rounds can be reloaded in 10 seconds flat.
>
The Ingram Super Mach 100 in FOF had a helical clip just like the
Calico


The Grand Poobah! Master of SWO
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurrences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 02:40:28 +0930
Legion writes:
> OK, as much as I've ranted, raved and drooled on here about ammo and
> firearms/cannon in the past, I have to play devil's advocate. Shadowrun
> is a fantasy game in which the DLoH has stated that it should be both played
> like a movie.

But if we play it like a movie, then the guns would NEVER run out of ammo
(except in certain, high-drama instances, such as the final showdowns),
and the players would never get seriously hurt! :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 13
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 13:39:10 -0600
Robert Watkins writes:
> Legion writes:
>> OK, as much as I've ranted, raved and drooled on here about ammo and
>> firearms/cannon in the past, I have to play devil's advocate. Shadowrun
>> is a fantasy game in which the DLoH has stated that it should be both played
>> like a movie.
>
> But if we play it like a movie, then the guns would NEVER run out of ammo
> (except in certain, high-drama instances, such as the final showdowns),
> and the players would never get seriously hurt! :)

I can see your point, but shadowrunners are supposed to be professionals at
what they do. Getting into a running firefight with a go-gang is not exactly
what I would call professional. Running out of ammo makes for good role-
playing and good tactics. Squatting behind a 55-gal drum trading rounds with
your adversary is suicide.

--
Legion -- the one and many...
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurrences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --
Message no. 14
From: John Stawarz aka Chaos Manager <jstawarz@******.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 17:35:01 -0400
>
> Legion writes:
>
> But if we play it like a movie, then the guns would NEVER run out of ammo
> (except in certain, high-drama instances, such as the final showdowns),
> and the players would never get seriously hurt! :)
>

Oh, you mean like they state in the Starwars Roleplaying Game? The
energy packs contain enough for far more shots than the players will
ever need, unless it's a dramatically appropriate moment, then the
players are SOL.

--
*****************************************************************
* John Stawarz aka Chaos Manager *
* jstawarz@******.gmu.edu jstawarz@***.edu *
*****************************************************************
* Dawn: The time when men of reason go to bed. *
*****************************************************************

Geek Code (1.0.1) GCS/O -d+ p c++(c---) l u+ e+ m+(*) s+/++ n---(!n) h--
f? g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
Message no. 15
From: Rob Moulton <szicepik@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 15:13:06 -0700
On Thu Jan 9, Legion wrote:
>
> What, a gun camera showing targetting data directly on the retina and
> influencing fine motor control to improve accuracy for a reasonable price
> isn't enough for you?
>
> OK, as much as I've ranted, raved and drooled on here about ammo and
> firearms/cannon in the past, I have to play devil's advocate. Shadowrun
> is a fantasy game in which the DLoH has stated that it should be both played
> and run like a movie. Lots of detail is left out to make the game a better
> role-playing game and fun to play for most everyone. Sure, folks with
> knowledge in certain areas (weapons, computers, physics, etc...) will be
> unsatisfied with FASA's vague explanation of things. If you can accept
> that a +3 sword in AD&D is just that, what's so hard about accepting
> that one type of pistol does X damage and carries N amount of ammo in it's
> X size magazine, or that a computer holds whatever amount of mega/giga-pulses.
> Who knows how big a pulse is and who cares, as long as rules for it's
> feasable use are given.
>
> Legion, the one and many...

I'm with you. What should it matter? Just find a real good gun, high in
power, with a good clip (magazine, who cares what they're called) and
then get a tactical computer. Combined with a decent firearms skill and
you will take out more than your own percentage of bad guys. Especially
if you have a few extra cyber-senses. You could track up to twenty
targets. Who could ask for more?

Rob
===========================================
= Control: It's as easy as decking in... =
= rjmoulton <szicepik@****.ucdavis.edu> =
Message no. 16
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:50:05 +0100
>
> Legion writes:
> > OK, as much as I've ranted, raved and drooled on here about ammo and
> > firearms/cannon in the past, I have to play devil's advocate. Shadowrun
> > is a fantasy game in which the DLoH has stated that it should be both played
> > like a movie.
>
> But if we play it like a movie, then the guns would NEVER run out of ammo
> (except in certain, high-drama instances, such as the final showdowns),
> and the players would never get seriously hurt! :)
>
> --
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9
am,
> it's because they were up all night.
>
I just saw John Woo's 'THE KILLER'...thats a big ammo firefight
of a film...LOts of peaple leaping around with a gun in each
hand blazing away like there was no tomorrow.

Ever run SR like this?

CHOPPER
i've seen Marcus Green , and i wasn't impressed
Message no. 17
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: AMMO
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 10:25:49 +0100
> Ever run SR like this?

Heh heh, sure, Chopper, my GM does that to me all the time ! :)

In the run my character is most (in)famous for, I had to penetrate a
pretty heavily guarded mega-corp with only a half-decent mage as back-up 'cos
the third team member (a PhysAd) got geeked by Lone Star after they caught her
trying to steal our getaway vehicle (a cab was good enough for me but oh, no,
she wanted comfort - :)).

Anyway, the corp security just kept coming - kept having to duck and
leap around, firing burst around corners and chucking grenades through doors;
expended loads of ammo ! :)

Thing about it, though, was that the most memorable bit about the run
was my having to hide under a naked fat sarrariman under the heavy sheets (on
his bed) to escape detection by watchers and elementals - <sigh> ... sammis
just aren't meant to take on that kinda magical opposition ... >:)
Message no. 18
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: AMMo
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:05:56 +0100
> >>>>> "Adi" == Adi Marcus
<s1685736@********.TECHNION.AC.IL> writes:
>
> Adi> 1-what's the game effect of mercury tiped bullets? (they exist in our
> Adi> world i.e 1994. - I've used them in my army service and let me tell U
> Adi> the effect is very impresive)
> But against living targets they're mostly useless, and dangerous to carry.
> Solid lead or steel is better overall.
<CHOP>
I don't know about mercury tipped, but sure know mercury cored.
Mercury cored rounds are nasty, as they have BIG expansion
profiles and chew big holes in people. The round is Worse
against armour (but hey, you pays your =Y= and takes your chance)
The bullet has a central well with mercury in it, sealed in.
When fired into something, the bullet slows but the heavy
mercurys inertia makes it keep going, punching open the bullets
nose.Big hollow point bullet now.
and mercury is poisonous
> Adi> 2-what's the game effect of teflon coated rounds (a cheaper , and less
> Adi> rare then APDS)
>
> None. Actually, reduced armor penetration. Teflon is used on steel or steel
> jacketed rounds (by definition light armor piercing) to reduce barrel wear.
> The teflon coating actually reduces penetration against ballistic fabrics
> like Kevlar 129 by a tiny percentage. I'm supprised that you claim to have
> had military experience, but don't know these facts.
<CHOP>Come on Rat , Give the guy a break
You know as well as i do that the term 'Teflon Coated' doesn't
mean a normal bullet coated in teflon. The rounds full official
title is a 'Solid steel teflon coated round'.Its the STEEL that
makes it light AP, and the Teflon reduces barrel wear/stops it
stripping the rifling off the barrel. KTW i think they called it.
Even the military have fallen into calling teflon/steel bullets
'teflon coated', like peaple call vacuum cleaners 'hoovers'
Ballistic armour-1, power -1 for wound/body roll only
(as the bullet doesn't expand as much)

> Adi> 3-I think this has been asked before but whats the stats effect of
> Adi> combining ammo types in burst fire or full auto mode? (something like
> Adi> 1 APDS+2 mercury tipped for burst fire)
> None. The game mechanics don't deal with it.
<CHOP>
Them invent some.
personally, i'd use the best round in the batch against the
target , modified by the other rounds in the burst
AP rounds do not add power, only count towards increasing wound
level.HE/apers give power +1/round in mix
..ie 1 APDS, 2

HE. Take apds profile vs armour and add 1 power/HE. Vs soft use
HE profile, apds adds no power
> --
> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
>
Has anyone got the stats for some of the common ammo types in SR
stuff like Hollowpoints? KTW? JHP? SJHP? silver and copper
tipped? Glaser? SPLAT? Spartan?
Special bullets for special purposes
personally, i count ALL assault rifles as already using APDS, as
its 2050 and the ACR program will have been in service for years.

CHOPPER
Message no. 19
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 17:01:11 +0100
<stuff about ammo cut>

> Has anyone got the stats for some of the common ammo types in SR
> stuff like Hollowpoints? KTW? JHP? SJHP? silver and copper
> tipped? Glaser? SPLAT? Spartan?
> Special bullets for special purposes
> personally, i count ALL assault rifles as already using APDS, as
> its 2050 and the ACR program will have been in service for years.
>
> CHOPPER
>

Mmmm. Lots of character I run and know use APDS, cos there more effective
and lighter than normal rounds. They have no disadvantages, whereas
armour piercing rounds should usually inflict less tissue trauma.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the SR firearms rules suck,
the problem caused with autofiring mixed rounds being a typical
example of the way they don't reflect reality.

Still, winge over.
the other ammo types is an interesting point. I never use explosive
ammunition. Praps I'm just soft, but the idea of my gun exploding
doesn't appeal. I want frangible rounds for increased damage, (although
at reduced penetration, that's a big advantage of explosive ammo, in fact
I'm prepared to concede that's realistic, assuming the right fusing
arrangement).

Right, I feel inspired, I'm going to produce an alternative set of
ammunition types over the weekend. If it works out OK I'll post
it next week. I'll probably cover stuff like THV, Glaser, AP, etc.
and maybe a few specialist shotgun rounds if I'm really inspired.

Lessee, where'd I leave my gun books....

GLO


--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 20
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:31:25 -0500
Would anyone like to help me write an updated version of the gun rules?

(NB: this could quite possibly turn into it's own game. Be forewarned.)
Message no. 21
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 15:29:22 +1000
CHOPPER writes:

> Even the military have fallen into calling teflon/steel bullets
> 'teflon coated', like peaple call vacuum cleaners 'hoovers'
> Ballistic armour-1, power -1 for wound/body roll only
> (as the bullet doesn't expand as much)

You do realise that this would result in it being _disadvantagous_ to use AP
rounds in _any_ circumstances don't you? Say I have a heavy pistol, doing
9M. If I'm shooting a target with 5 Ballistic armour, and firing regular
rounds, then the victim needs a target number of 4. If I put in AP rounds,
my power goes down by 1, and so does their armour rating, meaning that they
again need a 4 (8-4 in stead of 9-5). Now, if they didn't have any armour
and I was firing AP rounds, then only the -1 power would apply, meaning that
I would be better off using regular rounds all the time, even against
armoured opponents.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 22
From: Daniel Williams <daniel@****.DOE.K12.MS.US>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 01:03:05 CDT
> From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
> Subject: Re: AMMo
>
> CHOPPER writes:
>
> > Even the military have fallen into calling teflon/steel bullets
> > 'teflon coated', like peaple call vacuum cleaners 'hoovers'
> > Ballistic armour-1, power -1 for wound/body roll only
> > (as the bullet doesn't expand as much)
>
> You do realise that this would result in it being _disadvantagous_ to use AP
> rounds in _any_ circumstances don't you? Say I have a heavy pistol, doing
> 9M. If I'm shooting a target with 5 Ballistic armour, and firing regular
> rounds, then the victim needs a target number of 4. If I put in AP rounds,
> my power goes down by 1, and so does their armour rating, meaning that they
> again need a 4 (8-4 in stead of 9-5). Now, if they didn't have any armour
> and I was firing AP rounds, then only the -1 power would apply, meaning that
> I would be better off using regular rounds all the time, even against
> armoured opponents.

The no-armor = lower-damage-to-resist seems to be about right though. An
armor-piercing around isn't designed to destory flesh per say, but rather to
penetrate armor, and so would tend to pass through regular flesh without
as much damage (well, a higher possiblty of less damage than a regular
round).
I think it should be that APDS reduces the power by one (as per
CHOPPER) and halves the armor (as per the normal rules).


--Nefarious
Message no. 23
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 17:17:50 +1000
Nefarious writes:

> The no-armor = lower-damage-to-resist seems to be about right though. An
> armor-piercing around isn't designed to destory flesh per say, but rather to
> penetrate armor, and so would tend to pass through regular flesh without
> as much damage (well, a higher possiblty of less damage than a regular
> round).
> I think it should be that APDS reduces the power by one (as per
> CHOPPER) and halves the armor (as per the normal rules).

I agree with the sentiment entirely, APDS rounds would do well to have a -1
power, but as for regular AP rounds, it sorta defeats the purpose a bit when
translated into game terms.

Pheonix writes:

[Stuff on helmets, called(?) shots and armour]

Yeah, it all makes perfect SR sense. I assume that, say for example, I was a
mage, and I just put my head round a corner so I could see my enemies, then
when they shot at me I would still get my regular armour value? The obvious
answer is no, sinse I have no head armour, but in order to keep with SR
logic, I would have to recieve my normal armour. Elsewise my sammy friend,
with the helmet, would receive his helmet armour instead of his normal
armour value in the same situation.

Now, personally, I feel this is particularily dumb, and would still like
someone to give me a suggestion as to the armour value of a helmet.

> 2) In another post, Damion asked about a suggestion by another list member
> <sorry, I deleted the mesage, so I don't know the original poster> that AP
> rounds use -1 ballistic armor, -1 power on body roll. Damion did some
> calculations showing that if you reduce the power and armor level the same
> amount, you haven't gained anything. What he failed to realize was that the
> -1 power was only suposed to apply to Body dice. Combat pool dice would be
> unnafected. I am not saying that this makes the suggested rules any better,
> I just want to make sure everyone is discussing the same suggestion.

OK, then if I have armour 5, combat pool 3 and bod four, and am being shot
with a heavy pistol doing 9M:

1) regualr ammo. I get 3 dice vs t# 4
then 4 dice vs t# 4

2) AP ammo. I get 3 dice vs t# 5
then 4 dice vs t# 4

Now, if I have no armour:

1) regular ammo. I get 3 dice vs t# 9
then 4 dice vs t# 9

2) AP ammo. I get 3 dice vs t# 9
then 4 dice vs t# 8

Hmm, from this I can conclude that if you are using AP ammo, then it is
slightly more effective against armoured targets, and slightly less effective
against unarmoured targets. OK, you win there.

This is, of course, assuming that you are using SR combat pool dice rules,
which, quite frankly, suck. As has always been my problem with them: "What
the hell does the armour value of the armour you are wearing and the power of
the weapon have to do with evading the bullet?"

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 24
From: Adi Marcus <s1685736@********.TECHNION.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:42:04 +0200
here R some new ammo rules that R designed to be more reflective of the
way "real" world ammo works:

Armour Piercing-teflon\steel -1 power , -2 rating balistic armour
(remember that the energy transfer ratio of AP rounds is worse then
normal ratio for non AP ammo , so the ammo is less damaging then normal
ammo i.e power loss) , price *1.5.
-APDS -2 power , *0.5 rating balistic armour (so if the
target has balistic armour of less then 4 , APDS actualy performs worse then
normal ammo) , price *3.5
Damage enhancements-hollow point -2 power , balistic armour*2 or impact
armour*1 which ever is higher , damage +1 category (i.e M becomes S) ,
price *1.25
-mercury -1 power , damage +1 category , price *10



I would apriciate comments additions corections etc......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cerbarus - the phantasmal hound of the wardog company
adi marcus: E-mail s1685736@********.technion.ac.il
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 10:14:42 -0400
>>>>> "Adi" == Adi Marcus
<s1685736@********.TECHNION.AC.IL> writes:

Adi> Armour Piercing-teflon\steel -1 power , -2 rating balistic armour
Adi> (remember that the energy transfer ratio of AP rounds is worse then
Adi> normal ratio for non AP ammo , so the ammo is less damaging then normal
Adi> ammo i.e power loss) , price *1.5.

Ah, just for the record, these should be identical to steel rounds w/o
teflon. Shadowrun's damage curve isn't fine enough to factor in the
relatively microscopic reduction in penetration that results from the
teflon jacket. Steel and full steel jacketed lead are rated as either
"light armor piercing" or "semi-armor piercing," though they don't
have as
high a penetration factor as APDS & APFSDS.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|returned to its special container and kept
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |under refrigeration.
Message no. 26
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: AMMo
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:15:40 +0100
Oh boy, looks like I may not have to get round to rewriting the
ammo rules.

> here R some new ammo rules that R designed to be more reflective of the
> way "real" world ammo works:
>
> Armour Piercing-teflon\steel -1 power , -2 rating balistic armour
> (remember that the energy transfer ratio of AP rounds is worse then
> normal ratio for non AP ammo , so the ammo is less damaging then normal
> ammo i.e power loss) , price *1.5.

What's the weight of these rounds?

> -APDS -2 power , *0.5 rating balistic armour (so if the
> target has balistic armour of less then 4 , APDS actualy performs worse then
> normal ammo) , price *3.5

Again, is the weight still half normal?

> Damage enhancements-hollow point -2 power , balistic armour*2 or impact
> armour*1 which ever is higher , damage +1 category (i.e M becomes S) ,
> price *1.25

I'd guess the above stats are closer to what a frangible round would do.
(i.e. glaser, spartan or splat)
hollow point ammo would have better penetration, at a guess, don't
quote me on that though.

> -mercury -1 power , damage +1 category , price *10
>
> I would apriciate comments additions corections etc......
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cerbarus - the phantasmal hound of the wardog company
> adi marcus: E-mail s1685736@********.technion.ac.il
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 27
From: Lady Jestyr <nholmes@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ammo
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 11:28:52 -1000
>> The only weapons that tend to run out of ammo in our firefights are the
>> CMDTs being fired in burst mode. They take about 2/3rds of a turn to get
>> empty, and get reloaded in the last action... Anything with more ammo than
>> that usually lasts for at least two firefights _without_ reloading, for
>> some reason.

>A SMG or assult rifle used for full auto supresive fire can empty pretty
>fast. But the all time short clip award, in my expierience, goes to either of
>the Net Guns from SSC. Very effective, armor is irrelevant, doesn't do any
>harm, but anybody with hyped speed runs it out FAST. Then bieng a break
>loader, it takes TWO complex actions to fully reload (quickness is irrelevant,
>which seems silly). Of course, after youve immobalized four targets, its
>usually time to do something else, like run, interogate, or get a real weapon.

Modern interpretation of lead hose: our sammie, hosing down a dragon with a
minigun. Now THAT's going through the ammo - by the end of the fight we had to dig
him out of the empties.
Message no. 28
From: westec@******.COM (Neon Sihn)
Subject: Re: ammo
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 23:57:07 -0600
>
>Modern interpretation of lead hose: our sammie, hosing down a dragon with a
>minigun. Now THAT's going through the ammo - by the end of the fight we had
to dig
>him out of the empties.



and he wondered why he attracts attention??





---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------
Message no. 29
From: nholmes@***.edu.au (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: Re: ammo
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:56:07 +1000
>>
>>Modern interpretation of lead hose: our sammie, hosing down a dragon with a
>>minigun. Now THAT's going through the ammo - by the end of the fight we had
>to dig
>>him out of the empties.
>
> and he wondered why he attracts attention??
>

No... he was an attention freak, and roleplayed right over the top of the
rest of us. He eventually retired, rich, after earning several hundred
thousand nuyen 'acting' in a porn simsense (7 Charisma can be a good
earner...)

----
Lady J
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/ The Crypt!
Message no. 30
From: NITSTLKR00@***.com
Subject: Re: ammo
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 13:54:42 -0500
Tell him to use caseless ammo, less metal to be wasting.
Message no. 31
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:35:01 -0600
Paul J. Adam wrote:

> After all, the US Army spent many millions a decade ago proving that the
> M-16 shoots better than the soldiers holding it can use, and that an
> assortment of replacements (from Steyr, AAI, H&K and one I can't
> remember) all cost more for little provable performance improvement.
> Changing calibres costs a lot of money, and there's no perceptible
> benefit.

If it works don't fix it, I was issued one of steyr rifles for
evaluation.
IMO they pretty much no improvement and they are not worth the extra
wieght
They use the same 5.56 (223) round and have the same magizine compasity
as the M16
family of rifles. Really cool optical sights but the composite they are
made from
is heavier than the M16A2. You start to notice that extra wieght after
humping
it for 20 or 25 Km for a day or three... Being in a Ranger unit you get
to play with
all the next new stuff, before everyone else some it even made it into
other units, like the
M2 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) (I can't recall it's orginal name made
in beligum)
It's primary ammo is 200 round belts of 5.56 in little plastic boxes.
You are supposed
to be able to put M16 magizines in it but they don't really work that
well.

> 5.56mm rifles kill. They don't wound, they aren't designed to
> incapacitate, they are extremely efficient killers.



<snip> to save bandwidth
>
> Irrelevant. 5.56mm is not a "wounding" bullet. Remind me to bring you my
> copy of "Wounding patterns of military rifle bullets" by Dr Martin
> Fackler and you'll see what I mean; 5.56mm and 5.45mm are among the most
> damaging and lethal rounds studied.

You have seen what those rounds do to nice soft flesh once they hit.
They bounce around and make big nasty holes that are often lethal.
Nuff said on that note, thanks for metioning that excelent piece of
source
material this dicussion.
Message no. 32
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:05:54 +0000
And verily, did s c rose hastily scribble thusly...
|> 5.56mm rifles kill. They don't wound, they aren't designed to
|> incapacitate, they are extremely efficient killers.

This, in the point of view of military use, should be considered to be a bad
thing.

Wounding on the battlefield is much, MUCH more effecient than killing.
If you kill a man, you remove that one man from the battle.
If you wound a man, you remove several. (The wounded man, and a couple of
men who have to treat the injury and arrange evac.)


Standard tactics, that is...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 33
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:20:16 +0000
In article <21820.199801131205@*****.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> writes
>And verily, did s c rose hastily scribble thusly...
>|> 5.56mm rifles kill. They don't wound, they aren't designed to
>|> incapacitate, they are extremely efficient killers.
>
>This, in the point of view of military use, should be considered to be a bad
>thing.

No, it shouldn't.
>
>Wounding on the battlefield is much, MUCH more effecient than killing.

Nope.

I'll hark back to the Colt vs. Adams revolver squabble: the issue was
decided in the Crimea and the Sepoy Mutiny, where the .36 Colt proved
inadequate (an unfortunate officer emptying one into a charging
mutineer, who clove the officer to the teeth before deciding to die of
his wounds) while the .44 Adams proved to be an efficient manstopper.

A wounded enemy may decide to keep shooting. A dead enemy won't.

>If you kill a man, you remove that one man from the battle.
>If you wound a man, you remove several. (The wounded man, and a couple of
>men who have to treat the injury and arrange evac.)

The problem is, Spike, that the men spent to remove that wounded enemy
may be _yours_, if you're left in possession of the battlefield. Can't
leave wounded PoWs to die, it's bad PR and they make a lot of noise. If
the enemy withdraws, _you_ have to deal with their wounded.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 34
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:32:38 +0000
Spike wrote:
> And verily, did s c rose hastily scribble thusly...
> |> 5.56mm rifles kill. They don't wound, they aren't designed to
> |> incapacitate, they are extremely efficient killers.
>
> This, in the point of view of military use, should be considered to be a bad
> thing.
>
> Wounding on the battlefield is much, MUCH more effecient than killing.
> If you kill a man, you remove that one man from the battle.
> If you wound a man, you remove several. (The wounded man, and a couple of
> men who have to treat the injury and arrange evac.)
>
> Standard tactics, that is...

Not if you end up in control of the battlefield it isn't. Because
then it is you who has to deal with the wounded, not the enemy. And a
wounded enemy with a gun can still shoot you. And a few other
reasons why a dead enemy is better than a wounded one.. still the
point is valid, but as an *infantry* weapon I'd go for kill, not
wound. You cannot always afford to play fancy games out there. (If
we're talking extremes here, which we aren't - I assume the
difference is a slightly higher ratio of kill vs. wounding
with the 5.56 than 7.62 NATO.).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 35
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:18:11 +0000
And verily, did Fade hastily scribble thusly...
|Not if you end up in control of the battlefield it isn't. Because
|then it is you who has to deal with the wounded, not the enemy. And a
|wounded enemy with a gun can still shoot you. And a few other
|reasons why a dead enemy is better than a wounded one.. still the
|point is valid, but as an *infantry* weapon I'd go for kill, not
|wound. You cannot always afford to play fancy games out there. (If
|we're talking extremes here, which we aren't - I assume the
|difference is a slightly higher ratio of kill vs. wounding
|with the 5.56 than 7.62 NATO.).

*sigh*
This thread died out AGES ago, and all the above points were raised.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 36
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:03:45 +0000
> *sigh*
> This thread died out AGES ago, and all the above points were raised.
Well, I did say the posts were a 'bit' dated, didn't I?
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Further Reading

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