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Message no. 1
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:07:28 -0600
Paul J. Adam wrote:

<snip> interesting but not what I want to discuss at this time.
>
> I'd call it a bigger gun :) Multiple hits from the same burst have a
> rather nasty synergy.

This I would agree with 95% of the time or more.

> >>Again: shades of the Stechkin, the VP70, the Glock 18, the Beretta
> >>93R...
> >
> >Shades of, not exact mirror replicas. I have to ask this, do you have a
> >problem with imagination? Are you so locked up in a real world
> >environment that it is becoming impossible to just sit back and dream
> >for a moment?
>
> Nope. I just like to see an evolutionary path, and some common sense. If
> you can make a .50AE pistol fire full-auto in a controllable manner, why
> can't you chamber it in a submachinegun? Given that a SMG gains in
> ballistics from the longer barrel anyway, why has nobody seized the
> opportunity to market a SMG with 10M base damage?

Sounds like a nasty toy to me, could be done but I don't think it could
be concealed very well.
The desert eagle that is chambered for .50 AE holds 6 rounds and is a
monster of a pistol.
Quite simple to figure out that this thing would have to fairly large
and not be easily hidden.

> I don't have a problem with FASA fudging their damage codes to make
> heavy pistols competitive weapons against SMGs and assault rifles (for a
> close-up fight, at least). It makes the game more cinematic, and for me
> more enjoyable. I just choose to regard it as a rules fudge, rather than
> the result of calculated thought about firearms evolution between today
> and the 2050s :)

Again I tend to share this opinion for a number of reasons. A select
fire weapons which uses
the exact same bullets as a side arm. (9 mm para, and .45acp) These
weapons which are intended
to use burst fire and have a longer barrel do a great deal more damage.
Their semi auto shorter
barrel counter parts using the same rounds are at a disadvantage.

> >As is bigger bullets. Why is the trend in law enforcement to go for
> >heavier calibre weapons?

This is my pet theory on this one, for a time everyone was jumping on
the 9 mm band wagon.
well it turns out that 9 mm para suffers from the same over penetration
problems that 38s does.
At one time many law enforcement officers where using heavy double
action revolvers mostly
the S&W J frames chambered for .357mag. The trend 15 years ago was away
from wheel guns which
is still the case. Now these same people who wanted more lighter bullets
also want more stopping
power and/or knock down power. Which is why S&W .40 is becoming popular
as a law enforcement
round for cops on the street.

> If your threat is that hard to stop, then maybe something like a shotgun
> - or a MP-5 or a M4 carbine firing softnose bullets - is a better option
> than a "bigger pistol". It'll also be more effective against body
> armour.

Now you have run into a quirk of the United States. While the citizens
of most counties have
little to no problem with the police force running around with SMG's and
rifles. This is not something that many US citizens would react well to.
When a SWAT team shows up with heavy weapons people tend get a little on
edge... Case in point in the UK and all over europe for that matter
military and police forces work very closely with each other on many
counter terrorist operations. Terrorism is just now starting to become
an issue for US law enforcement and quite frankly. US counter terrorism
tactics are years behind the rest of the world in many ways. It does not
build public confidance for the police to admit that terrorist
situations are becoming more common in the US and that a patrol officer
is not equipted to deal with it.

The rest got snipped because of a subject change and I might address
that subject as well...

Regards
Message no. 2
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:08:16 +0000
In article <34BE5060.BE3A35B7@****.com>, s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
writes
>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> If your threat is that hard to stop, then maybe something like a shotgun
>> - or a MP-5 or a M4 carbine firing softnose bullets - is a better option
>> than a "bigger pistol". It'll also be more effective against body
>> armour.
>
>Now you have run into a quirk of the United States. While the citizens
>of most counties have
>little to no problem with the police force running around with SMG's and
>rifles. This is not something that many US citizens would react well to.

That's now. NAGNA says there's an act of terrorism every twelve hours in
the UCAS. Even the worst reaches of bandit country in NI don't manage
that.

When people are scared, they get much happier to see heavily armed law
enforcement, provided they have faith that the laws are _being_
enforced. One advantage of subcontracting your policing: it's a lot
easier to sweep out _all_ of a corrupt division, just give the Seattle
franchise to Knight-Errant at the next renewal.

>When a SWAT team shows up with heavy weapons people tend get a little on
>edge... Case in point in the UK and all over europe for that matter
>military and police forces work very closely with each other on many
>counter terrorist operations. Terrorism is just now starting to become
>an issue for US law enforcement and quite frankly. US counter terrorism
>tactics are years behind the rest of the world in many ways. It does not
>build public confidance for the police to admit that terrorist
>situations are becoming more common in the US and that a patrol officer
>is not equipted to deal with it.

To quote Pete :) That's now, Shadowrun is sixty years hence.

North America's had to get used to terrorism in 2059.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:31:23 -0600
Paul J. Adam wrote:

> When people are scared, they get much happier to see heavily armed law
> enforcement, provided they have faith that the laws are _being_
> enforced. One advantage of subcontracting your policing: it's a lot
> easier to sweep out _all_ of a corrupt division, just give the Seattle
> franchise to Knight-Errant at the next renewal.

Well you have that fine line between law enforcement and putting people
into a police state.
I just don't see the citizens who live in the nicer parts of a major
metroplex wanting things
like the assorted Specialized units like FRT/HTR etc, showing up all the
time. I still see it
as an issue existing 60 years from now. An officer with a side arm is
reassuring an officer in
full combat gear with an assult rifle is not. It tranlates to a patrol
officer can not deal with
the threats on the street.


> To quote Pete :) That's now, Shadowrun is sixty years hence.
>
> North America's had to get used to terrorism in 2059.

Prehaps but I still see the appearance of heavy weapons/magic and heavy
duty cyberware
as being bad PR at best. That stuff belongs in the barrens or on the
trid not in my front
yard would be many peoples response.
Message no. 4
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:57:16 +0000
On 16 Jan 98, s c rose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> Well you have that fine line between law enforcement and putting
> people into a police state. I just don't see the citizens who live
> in the nicer parts of a major metroplex wanting things like the
> assorted Specialized units like FRT/HTR etc, showing up all the
> time. I still see it as an issue existing 60 years from now. An
> officer with a side arm is reassuring an officer in full combat gear
> with an assult rifle is not. It tranlates to a patrol officer can
> not deal with the threats on the street.

LONE STAR MOTTO: THERE'S NO SUCH A THING AS AN OVERKILL!

You can rest safely while our patrol officers, armored and armed with
the latest technology patrol the streets! Our equipment can deal even
with a cybered-up troll on PCP that decides to leave the Barrens for
a little stroll through corporate streets!! (However this may seem
unlikely)

<snip>
> Prehaps but I still see the appearance of heavy weapons/magic and
> heavy duty cyberware as being bad PR at best. That stuff belongs in
> the barrens or on the trid not in my front yard would be many
> peoples response.

'Wow, look at that guy move... Heh. Any criminal trying his luck here
is toast.'

;P

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU
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Error loading GOD.SYS (A)bort or (U)nzip BIGBANG.ZIP.
Message no. 5
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:10:35 GMT
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:31:23 -0600, s c rose wrote:

> Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
> > When people are scared, they get much happier to see heavily armed law
> > enforcement, provided they have faith that the laws are _being_
> > enforced. One advantage of subcontracting your policing: it's a lot
> > easier to sweep out _all_ of a corrupt division, just give the Seattle
> > franchise to Knight-Errant at the next renewal.
>
> Well you have that fine line between law enforcement and putting people
> into a police state.
> I just don't see the citizens who live in the nicer parts of a major
> metroplex wanting things
> like the assorted Specialized units like FRT/HTR etc, showing up all the
> time. I still see it
> as an issue existing 60 years from now. An officer with a side arm is
> reassuring an officer in
> full combat gear with an assult rifle is not. It tranlates to a patrol
> officer can not deal with
> the threats on the street.

It all depends on when you live and where you live. If an officer with a
sidearm generates feelings of reassurance, England's "bobbies"-- lacking a
sidearm altogether-- must generate feelings of utter euphoria :)

> > To quote Pete :) That's now, Shadowrun is sixty years hence.
> >
> > North America's had to get used to terrorism in 2059.
>
> Prehaps but I still see the appearance of heavy weapons/magic and heavy
> duty cyberware
> as being bad PR at best. That stuff belongs in the barrens or on the
> trid not in my front
> yard would be many peoples response.

So, hide it. (I wonder if those people that live in the US in LOS of a
nuclear missile silo felt the same way during the cold war...)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 6
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:46:51 +0000
On 15 Jan 98 at 12:07, s c rose wrote:


> > Nope. I just like to see an evolutionary path, and some common sense. If
> > you can make a .50AE pistol fire full-auto in a controllable manner, why
> > can't you chamber it in a submachinegun? Given that a SMG gains in
> > ballistics from the longer barrel anyway, why has nobody seized the
> > opportunity to market a SMG with 10M base damage?
>
> Sounds like a nasty toy to me, could be done but I don't think it could
> be concealed very well.
> The desert eagle that is chambered for .50 AE holds 6 rounds and is a
> monster of a pistol.
> Quite simple to figure out that this thing would have to fairly large
> and not be easily hidden.

So what? An HK MP-5SD3 can't be easily hidden. Why should it? Weapons are
not designed for Shadowrunners. Especially SMGs and other milspec-guns
(everything without the "P" int the legality-code) are made for military
and law-enforcment use and they give shit about concealability ("Hey, wait
a sec! If we give the Marines assault-rifles, they can't hide them! Bad
Thing! Let's give them Derringers!"). That's why I actually consider the
stuff about the Ingram 20t in the SSC dumb as hell: You don't SELL to
runners, 'cause the stuff on the streets was stolen somewhere.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 7
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:58:34 -0600
Zixx wrote:

> So what? An HK MP-5SD3 can't be easily hidden. Why should it? Weapons are
> not designed for Shadowrunners. Especially SMGs and other milspec-guns
> (everything without the "P" int the legality-code) are made for military
> and law-enforcment use and they give shit about concealability ("Hey, wait
> a sec! If we give the Marines assault-rifles, they can't hide them! Bad
> Thing! Let's give them Derringers!"). That's why I actually consider the
> stuff about the Ingram 20t in the SSC dumb as hell: You don't SELL to
> runners, 'cause the stuff on the streets was stolen somewhere.

The point was not that it couldn't be done that would be rather
impractical to a runner
mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want. Running the
shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
disadvanages than advantages.
Message no. 8
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:24:31 +0000
On 18 Jan 98 at 8:58, s c rose wrote:

> Zixx wrote:
>
> > So what? An HK MP-5SD3 can't be easily hidden. Why should it? Weapons are
> > not designed for Shadowrunners. Especially SMGs and other milspec-guns
> > (everything without the "P" int the legality-code) are made for
military
> > and law-enforcment use and they give shit about concealability ("Hey, wait
> > a sec! If we give the Marines assault-rifles, they can't hide them! Bad
> > Thing! Let's give them Derringers!"). That's why I actually consider the
> > stuff about the Ingram 20t in the SSC dumb as hell: You don't SELL to
> > runners, 'cause the stuff on the streets was stolen somewhere.
>
> The point was not that it couldn't be done that would be rather
> impractical to a runner

What? Selling to runners or concealing big guns?

> mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want. Running the
> shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
> disadvanages than advantages.

So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 9
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:51:00 PST
>> mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want. Running
the
>> shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
>> disadvanages than advantages.
>
>So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?


I think he forgot about mercs and runs that take place outside the
city- or under corp 'funding'. However, your traditional run is about
stealth... but if you are never seen, your weapon is never seen, neh?
:)

-Vagabond (nomad74@*******.com)
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 10
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:15:03 -0600
Damon Harper wrote:
>
> >> mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want. Running
> the
> >> shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
> >> disadvanages than advantages.
> >
> >So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?

Not even sport rifles all that often in the city.

> I think he forgot about mercs and runs that take place outside the
> city- or under corp 'funding'. However, your traditional run is about
> stealth... but if you are never seen, your weapon is never seen, neh?
> :)

I have not forgotten about them but the folks who own that stuff are
going to want it back.
Even a merc outfit is not going to want to attract unwanted attention to
itself in the city.
Stealth in not being seen with all those wiz toys is a definate
advantage.
--

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough
to make you make your second shot perfect.
Message no. 11
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:17:53 -0600
Zixx wrote:
>
> On 18 Jan 98 at 8:58, s c rose wrote:
>
> > Zixx wrote:
> >
> > > So what? An HK MP-5SD3 can't be easily hidden. Why should it? Weapons are
> > > not designed for Shadowrunners. Especially SMGs and other milspec-guns
> > > (everything without the "P" int the legality-code) are made for
military
> > > and law-enforcment use and they give shit about concealability ("Hey,
wait
> > > a sec! If we give the Marines assault-rifles, they can't hide them! Bad
> > > Thing! Let's give them Derringers!"). That's why I actually consider
the
> > > stuff about the Ingram 20t in the SSC dumb as hell: You don't SELL to
> > > runners, 'cause the stuff on the streets was stolen somewhere.
> >
> > The point was not that it couldn't be done that would be rather
> > impractical to a runner
>
> What? Selling to runners or concealing big guns?

Well actually both if the truth be told, The people who make the mil
spec stuff are not going to want it in the hands of runners most of the
time and concealing big guns is difficult at best.

> > mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want. Running the
> > shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
> > disadvanages than advantages.
>
> So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?
>
> Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.
>
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--

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough
to make you make your second shot perfect.
Message no. 12
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:41:58 PST
>I have not forgotten about them but the folks who own that stuff are
>going to want it back.
>Even a merc outfit is not going to want to attract unwanted attention
to
>itself in the city.
>Stealth in not being seen with all those wiz toys is a definate
>advantage.
>--

I see your point.


-Vagabond (nomad74@*******.com)
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:57:33 +0000
On 19 Jan 98 at 11:15, s c rose wrote:

> Damon Harper wrote:
> >
> > >> mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want. Running
> > the
> > >> shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
> > >> disadvanages than advantages.
> > >
> > >So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?
>
> Not even sport rifles all that often in the city.

Makes me wonder: Do you use the normal SR damage system? I mean only
pistols. That's not really much firepower in normal SR....



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 14
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:57:33 +0000
On 19 Jan 98 at 7:51, Damon Harper wrote:

> >So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?
>
>
> I think he forgot about mercs and runs that take place outside the
> city- or under corp 'funding'. However, your traditional run is about
> stealth... but if you are never seen, your weapon is never seen, neh?

Try not to be seen with an AK-98 over your shoulder...:)


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 15
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:51:09 +0000
In article <199801192054.VAA11420@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>On 19 Jan 98 at 11:15, s c rose wrote:
>> Not even sport rifles all that often in the city.
>
>Makes me wonder: Do you use the normal SR damage system? I mean only
>pistols. That's not really much firepower in normal SR....

9M pistols, or Guardians and Thunderbolts giving you 12S. Sounds plenty
to me, with skill and care, if you're avoiding major firefights.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 16
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:10:42 +0000
On 19 Jan 98 at 11:17, s c rose wrote:


> > > The point was not that it couldn't be done that would be rather
> > > impractical to a runner
> >
> > What? Selling to runners or concealing big guns?
>
> Well actually both if the truth be told, The people who make the mil
> spec stuff are not going to want it in the hands of runners most of
> the time and concealing big guns is difficult at best.

Gun Manufacturers make guns to sell. And the wholesale
distributors deffinantly buy thier stock to sell. That is how the
make thier money. While a few of the big name manufacturing
firms may have suffient market share to be selective. That is when
you can easly sell your entire annual production in the legal market
you can be picky about who you sell to. On the other hand the
struggling distributor with cash flow problems can not afford to be
as picky. If runners and want-to-be runners make up a sizable market,
people will cater to that market. Given the dog eat dog aspects of
the SR universe this IMHO would be particularly common. An arms race
between the runners and security forces can not help but be good for
the bottom line. Now for legal and PR reasons they may not admit it
and will have good cover stories for weapons that "accedently" find
thier way into the hands of runners.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 17
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:28:50 -0600
Zixx wrote:
>
> On 19 Jan 98 at 11:15, s c rose wrote:
>
> > Damon Harper wrote:
> > >
> > > >> mil spec weapons get the kinds of attention you don't want.
Running
> > > the
> > > >> shadows is about streath and mil spec weapons often have more
> > > >> disadvanages than advantages.
> > > >
> > > >So all you use is pistols and sport rifles?
> >
> > Not even sport rifles all that often in the city.
>
> Makes me wonder: Do you use the normal SR damage system? I mean only
> pistols. That's not really much firepower in normal SR....

Yes we use the regular damage system. It has to do with the threats you
face on the runs you do
the toys you need to have. Also called shots to the head are a wonderful
tool for a street sam.
Regular security guards in the nite on the town type runs are not using
mil spec gear and the folks running against them don't need it either.
We use heavier weapons if we need them but that is not often. If the run
requires more fire power than pistols our sponsor had better provide it
or find another team.

--

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough
to make you make your second shot perfect.
Message no. 18
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:35:33 +0000
On 19 Jan 98 at 22:51, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In article <199801192054.VAA11420@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
> f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
> >On 19 Jan 98 at 11:15, s c rose wrote:
> >> Not even sport rifles all that often in the city.
> >
> >Makes me wonder: Do you use the normal SR damage system? I mean only
> >pistols. That's not really much firepower in normal SR....
>
> 9M pistols, or Guardians and Thunderbolts giving you 12S. Sounds plenty
> to me, with skill and care, if you're avoiding major firefights.

OK. The Thundeerbolt hs always been cop-only in our game and the Savalette
was considered too milspec. That changed sine we use another system (the
Guardian-part, at least), but anyway, he said legel stuff only, so MPs
don't qualify. :)
Besides, your 9M-pistol is 4M against your normal runner/guard, thanks to
the armour-jacket. Not very effective.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 19
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:44:36 -0600
David Hinkley wrote:
>
> On 19 Jan 98 at 11:17, s c rose wrote:
>
> > > > The point was not that it couldn't be done that would be rather
> > > > impractical to a runner
> > >
> > > What? Selling to runners or concealing big guns?
> >
> > Well actually both if the truth be told, The people who make the mil
> > spec stuff are not going to want it in the hands of runners most of
> > the time and concealing big guns is difficult at best.
>
> Gun Manufacturers make guns to sell. And the wholesale
> distributors deffinantly buy thier stock to sell. That is how the
> make thier money. While a few of the big name manufacturing
> firms may have suffient market share to be selective. That is when
> you can easly sell your entire annual production in the legal market
> you can be picky about who you sell to.

That pretty much covers mil spec stuff in the games I run in. A Panter
cannon is a really wiz toy
but that doesn't mean every sammie on the street has one. In the games
I'm in heavy duty mil spec
gear is rather hard to come by, with good reason IMO. How many machines
guns M60 and larger do you
see in the here and now not in the hands of military forces or taken
from the same. It has a great deal to
do with the power level of the game in question, In a game where assult
rifles and SMG's are not all
common an panther cannon would be almost unheard of outside of corp
strike team or a military unit.
Doesn't make them any less cool just not something the runners are going
to have access to very often.

--

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough
to make you make your second shot perfect.
Message no. 20
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:33:14 +0000
On 20 Jan 98 at 2:10, David Hinkley wrote:

> Gun Manufacturers make guns to sell. And the wholesale
> distributors deffinantly buy thier stock to sell. That is how the
> make thier money. While a few of the big name manufacturing
> firms may have suffient market share to be selective. That is when
> you can easly sell your entire annual production in the legal market
> you can be picky about who you sell to. On the other hand the
> struggling distributor with cash flow problems can not afford to be
> as picky. If runners and want-to-be runners make up a sizable market,
> people will cater to that market. Given the dog eat dog aspects of
> the SR universe this IMHO would be particularly common. An arms race
> between the runners and security forces can not help but be good for
> the bottom line. Now for legal and PR reasons they may not admit it
> and will have good cover stories for weapons that "accedently" find
> thier way into the hands of runners.

Well, how many runners do you know, that buy thier guns from the corp that
made them. Most (if not all) of the stuff is stolen, you know, "stuff
fallen of a truck. Shortly after the LAW erased it's engine."
See Cyberpirates for nice stuff about this. You don't make money with guns
on the street....



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 21
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:02:34 +0000
In article <199801201732.SAA00723@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>On 19 Jan 98 at 22:51, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> 9M pistols, or Guardians and Thunderbolts giving you 12S. Sounds plenty
>> to me, with skill and care, if you're avoiding major firefights.
>
>OK. The Thundeerbolt hs always been cop-only in our game and the Savalette
>was considered too milspec. That changed sine we use another system (the
>Guardian-part, at least), but anyway, he said legel stuff only, so MPs
>don't qualify. :)

>Besides, your 9M-pistol is 4M against your normal runner/guard, thanks to
>the armour-jacket. Not very effective.

5M if you load explosive rounds, 6M with EX. Suddenly becomes
uncomfortable...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:40:40 +1000
Paul writes:
>>Besides, your 9M-pistol is 4M against your normal runner/guard, thanks to
>>the armour-jacket. Not very effective.
>
>5M if you load explosive rounds, 6M with EX. Suddenly becomes
>uncomfortable...

One of the silliest things I ever saw in a game was a character who had a
silenced pistol (so that it wouldn't be noisy, making the run "stealthier"),
loaded with explosive rounds...

This same guy asked if he could get a silencer adaptor for his underbarrel
grenade launcher...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.
Message no. 23
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 01:25:46 +0000
In article <01bd25fc$d1051740$05b937c0@********.mincom.oz.au>, Robert
Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM> writes
>One of the silliest things I ever saw in a game was a character who had a
>silenced pistol (so that it wouldn't be noisy, making the run "stealthier"),
>loaded with explosive rounds...

A friend played a PI, who took part in the following discussion...

Dr Jones: "Okay. Have we all got a silent weapom? I've got a silenced
pistol."

Hogan: "I've got my crossbow".

Silver; "I've got a pistol and a silencer."

Marlowe; "Yes."

Dr Jones: "Yes? What's your silenced weapon?"

Marlowe: "I don't carry a weapon. So it's quiet."


I stole a few elements of the character to portray it on ShadowTK...
adaptation rather than plagiarism, Alan, honest.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 24
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:08:38 +0000
On 20 Jan 98 at 22:33, Zixx wrote:

> On 20 Jan 98 at 2:10, David Hinkley wrote:
>
> > Gun Manufacturers make guns to sell. And the wholesale
> > distributors deffinantly buy thier stock to sell. That is how the
> > make thier money. While a few of the big name manufacturing
> > firms may have suffient market share to be selective. That is when
> > you can easly sell your entire annual production in the legal market
> > you can be picky about who you sell to. On the other hand the
> > struggling distributor with cash flow problems can not afford to be
> > as picky. If runners and want-to-be runners make up a sizable market,
> > people will cater to that market. Given the dog eat dog aspects of
> > the SR universe this IMHO would be particularly common. An arms race
> > between the runners and security forces can not help but be good for
> > the bottom line. Now for legal and PR reasons they may not admit it
> > and will have good cover stories for weapons that "accedently" find
> > thier way into the hands of runners.
>
> Well, how many runners do you know, that buy thier guns from the
> corp that made them. Most (if not all) of the stuff is stolen, you
> know, "stuff fallen of a truck. Shortly after the LAW erased it's
> engine." See Cyberpirates for nice stuff about this. You don't make
> money with guns on the street....

If the runners do buy direct it is likely that they are not aware of
it. One thing to remember, runners pay cash, and you do not pay
taxes on money from "stolen" guns. Some things are "helped" when they
"fall off a truck". Besides the corp often does not care who buys
thier product or who they re-sell it to they just want it sold.
Given the street index for some of the guns you could make money,
especially if you truely got them at cost.



David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 25
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ammo and law enforcement
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:08:38 +0000
On 20 Jan 98 at 11:44, s c rose wrote:

> David Hinkley wrote:
> >
> > On 19 Jan 98 at 11:17, s c rose wrote:
> >
> > > > > The point was not that it couldn't be done that would be rather
> > > > > impractical to a runner
> > > >
> > > > What? Selling to runners or concealing big guns?
> > >
> > > Well actually both if the truth be told, The people who make the mil
> > > spec stuff are not going to want it in the hands of runners most of
> > > the time and concealing big guns is difficult at best.
> >
> > Gun Manufacturers make guns to sell. And the wholesale
> > distributors deffinantly buy thier stock to sell. That is how the
> > make thier money. While a few of the big name manufacturing
> > firms may have suffient market share to be selective. That is when
> > you can easly sell your entire annual production in the legal market
> > you can be picky about who you sell to.
>
> That pretty much covers mil spec stuff in the games I run in. A
> Panter cannon is a really wiz toy but that doesn't mean every sammie
> on the street has one. In the games I'm in heavy duty mil spec gear
> is rather hard to come by, with good reason IMO. How many machines
> guns M60 and larger do you see in the here and now not in the hands
> of military forces or taken from the same.

The last gun show I attended had an MG-42 and a M1919 for sale. But I
get your point.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

Further Reading

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