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Message no. 1
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:01:02 U
I have a Question.
One of the players in my game has a HVLMG from the Fields of Fire which I
don't own so I can't examine the rules for it.
The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone explain to
me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.

thanks in advance Steve
Message no. 2
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:41:31 -0800
> I have a Question.
> One of the players in my game has a HVLMG from the Fields of Fire which I
> don't own so I can't examine the rules for it.
> The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone explain to
> me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.
>
> thanks in advance Steve

The actual, single round does a fairly low amount of damage the super-Mach SMG
only does 6L, however each weapon fires 6 round bursts...thus the damage goes up
2 levels and has a +6 to power. Hence the high damage.

~Tim (invest in FoF, the compiled tables in the back are almost worth it alone.)
Message no. 3
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:38:27 -0700
> I have a Question.
> One of the players in my game has a HVLMG from the Fields of Fire which I
> don't own so I can't examine the rules for it.
> The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone explain to
> me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.

The way that we handled the HVLMG was this: since it said that the
damage for a six-round burst was 15D, as opposed to 12D the way it would
normally be calculated, (which makes sense, otherwise there wouldn't be
any difference between the HVAR and the HVLMG in damage), we figured that
the 4th, 5th, and 6th rounds in the burst added +2 to the power instead
of +1. Any additional rounds in a burst were calculated normally, with a +1.

Sokay?

-Tom-
Message no. 4
From: Robert Simon <simon@******.COM>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:21:42 +0100
The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone explain to
>me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.
>
Uups..
Shortly: they do 6-round-bursts with all the implications and use
light-pistol-ammo with an aequivalent of 3 points recoil reduction. Singe
shot damage is 7S and they can't take barrel mounted devices (so no
gas-vent, at least in the german version..); Smartlink II build in.
Burst Damage is 15D, maximum rate is 15 rounds/round on fully auto-fire.
recoil- rules as for normal weapons (so no double uncompesnated recoil.)
Hope that helps
Guido
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:48:09 +0100
Steve Collins said on 9:01/ 4 Dec 96...

> I have a Question.

Who doesn't? :)

> One of the players in my game has a HVLMG from the Fields of Fire which I
> don't own so I can't examine the rules for it.
> The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone
> explain to me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.

They don't fire the normal ammo for their kind of weapon: both the HVAR
and HVLMG use light pistol rounds and fires at supermachinegun rates (6
rounds/burst or 15 rounds/full auto). Still that means the quoted burst
damage for the HVLMG isn't correct -- 6S for one shot, at 6 rounds makes
12D, not 15D as it says in Fields of Fire.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is weer Sinterklaas!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:03:29 -0700
> They don't fire the normal ammo for their kind of weapon: both the HVAR
> and HVLMG use light pistol rounds and fires at supermachinegun rates (6
> rounds/burst or 15 rounds/full auto). Still that means the quoted burst
> damage for the HVLMG isn't correct -- 6S for one shot, at 6 rounds makes
> 12D, not 15D as it says in Fields of Fire.

I think the reason that the HVLMG's burst damage is listed as 15D
instead of 12D like it should be figured, is that otherwise there would
be no difference between the HVLMG and the HVAR on a 6 round burst. The
way we figure HVLMG damage in my group, (house rule here), is that the
4th, 5th, and 6th round ONLY in a burst add +2 to the power instead of
just +1. So a 3 round burst would be 9D, a 5 round burst would be 13D,
and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round burst
calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.

-Tom-
Message no. 7
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:32:14 -0000
> I think the reason that the HVLMG's burst damage is listed as 15D
> instead of 12D like it should be figured, is that otherwise there would
> be no difference between the HVLMG and the HVAR on a 6 round burst. The
> way we figure HVLMG damage in my group, (house rule here), is that the
> 4th, 5th, and 6th round ONLY in a burst add +2 to the power instead of
> just +1. So a 3 round burst would be 9D, a 5 round burst would be 13D,
> and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round burst
> calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
> superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.
>
> -Tom-

So do you then handle recoil at a cumulative +6 per burst in this case as
well?

- Loki
Message no. 8
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:11:50 -0500
At 12:21 PM 12/5/96 +0100, you wrote:
>The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone explain to
>>me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.
>>
>Uups..
>Shortly: they do 6-round-bursts with all the implications and use
>light-pistol-ammo with an aequivalent of 3 points recoil reduction. Singe
>shot damage is 7S and they can't take barrel mounted devices (so no
>gas-vent, at least in the german version..); Smartlink II build in.
>Burst Damage is 15D, maximum rate is 15 rounds/round on fully auto-fire.
>recoil- rules as for normal weapons (so no double uncompesnated recoil.)
>Hope that helps
> Guido
>
Yeah, except, they fire the 6 round burst with a recoil penalty of +3 to TN
per burst. (At least, that seems to be what they mean my "as normal
weapons" because normal weapons take +3 TN per burst). This makes sense
because an extremely light round is being fired from a big gun, so, more
rounds can be shot with the same recoil as 3 larger rounds would incurr.

Also, that 3 points of recoil mod's is some kind of integrel barrel device,
(though not necessarily a gas vent) -- hence the inability to accept barrel
mounts.
--Sanction
Message no. 9
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:16:10 -0500
At 12:48 PM 12/5/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Steve Collins said on 9:01/ 4 Dec 96...
>
>> I have a Question.
>
>Who doesn't? :)
>
>> One of the players in my game has a HVLMG from the Fields of Fire which I
>> don't own so I can't examine the rules for it.
>> The damage codes for all the HV weapons seem to be off can someone
>> explain to me exactly how to calculate the damage for one of these.
>
>They don't fire the normal ammo for their kind of weapon: both the HVAR
>and HVLMG use light pistol rounds and fires at supermachinegun rates (6
>rounds/burst or 15 rounds/full auto). Still that means the quoted burst
>damage for the HVLMG isn't correct -- 6S for one shot, at 6 rounds makes
>12D, not 15D as it says in Fields of Fire.
>
I think, as someone already said, that this is an intentional discrepancy,
because otherwise there would be no difference between the HVAR and the
HVLMG except that the HVLMG would have a shorter range. This gives the
HVLMG some advantage over the HVAR -- more damaging on burst fire as well as
when one bullet is fired at a time.

--Sanction
Message no. 10
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:39:34 -0700
<snip>
> > and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round burst
> > calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
> > superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.
> >
> > -Tom-
>
> So do you then handle recoil at a cumulative +6 per burst in this case as
> well?
> - Loki

I handle the recoil exactly as you would normally: +1 per round fired.

-Tom-
Message no. 11
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:16:53 -0500
At 12:39 PM 12/5/96 -0700, you wrote:
><snip>
>> > and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round burst
>> > calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
>> > superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.
>> >
>> > -Tom-
>>
>> So do you then handle recoil at a cumulative +6 per burst in this case as
>> well?
>> - Loki
>
>I handle the recoil exactly as you would normally: +1 per round fired.

As I posted earlier, I don't think this is how the HV weapons are supposed
to work. I believe the statement that they behave as normal weapons means
that they suffer the same recoil, which is technically +3 per burst. As I
said before, this makes sense as a much smaller round is being fired -- we
are talking in the extreme case a light pistol round being fired from a 8kg
(or so, that is just a guess, no book access) LMG. There is no way the
recoil from that would be as heavy as the same LMG firing the rounds they
normally handle, which are MUCH more massive.

It's all conservation of momentum, if you assume that light pistol rounds
are half the mass of LMG or assault rifle rounds (which isn't ludicrous)
then you'd have to fire twice as many (at the same velocity) to have the
same recoil force (in SR terms, the same +3 to TN). With a stretch, the
same argument could basically be applied to the SMG version, though, at that
point it is more a simplification to allow the exact same +3, as it would
probably be around +4 or +5 purely from the physics.

--Sanction
Message no. 12
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:38:59 -0700
> <snip>
> > > and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round burst
> > > calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
> > > superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.
> > >
> > > -Tom-
> >
> > So do you then handle recoil at a cumulative +6 per burst in this case as
> > well?
> > - Loki
>
> I handle the recoil exactly as you would normally: +1 per round fired.
> -Tom-

Whoa! I just realized (after reading an earlier post), that you could
interpret the rules for HV weapons, as only haveing +3 for bursts... as
it says in the SRII book that burst fire wepons give a +3 recoil mod.
I've always thought that it was +1 per round fired, even in burst mode.
Hmmm... I don't quite know how to handle it now. I'd still suggest
+1/round, but then the recoil gets ridiculous unless you're a buff
ork/troll with a gyro... any suggestions??

-Tom-
Message no. 13
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:39:08 -0500
Robert Pendergrast wrote:
>Whoa! I just realized (after reading an earlier post), that you could
>interpret the rules for HV weapons, as only haveing +3 for bursts... as
>it says in the SRII book that burst fire wepons give a +3 recoil mod.
>I've always thought that it was +1 per round fired, even in burst mode.
>Hmmm... I don't quite know how to handle it now. I'd still suggest
>+1/round, but then the recoil gets ridiculous unless you're a buff
>ork/troll with a gyro... any suggestions??
>
Hey, are my posts not getting to the list, I've argued for why HV weapons
should be +3 recoil per burst twice now, is anybody getting these?

--Sanction
Message no. 14
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:23:43 +0000
In message <199612051148.MAA07814@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>They don't fire the normal ammo for their kind of weapon: both the HVAR
>and HVLMG use light pistol rounds and fires at supermachinegun rates (6
>rounds/burst or 15 rounds/full auto). Still that means the quoted burst
>damage for the HVLMG isn't correct -- 6S for one shot, at 6 rounds makes
>12D, not 15D as it says in Fields of Fire.

Perhaps the Power goes up because the damage hits Deadly?

e.g. first three rounds raise the code from 6S to 9D

next three rounds raise the code to 12D and up the damage level by one,
but since it's already Deadly it raises the Power by +3 instead?

Unfortunately that doesn't apply anywhere else, or a HMG would do 19D
for a six-round burst...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 15
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:15:11 -0500
> Robert Pendergrast wrote:
> >Whoa! I just realized (after reading an earlier post), that you could
> >interpret the rules for HV weapons, as only haveing +3 for bursts... as
> >it says in the SRII book that burst fire wepons give a +3 recoil mod.
> >I've always thought that it was +1 per round fired, even in burst mode.
> >Hmmm... I don't quite know how to handle it now. I'd still suggest
> >+1/round, but then the recoil gets ridiculous unless you're a buff
> >ork/troll with a gyro... any suggestions??
> >
> Hey, are my posts not getting to the list, I've argued for why HV weapons
> should be +3 recoil per burst twice now, is anybody getting these?
>
I have been getting your arguments and I agree with them. I have always
thought that the recoil rules are a bit warped in shadowrun, though I can
see why they do it just for ease of play. Not trying to be hyper-critical
(despite what any of you out there think), there is a big difference
between the recoil from a three-round burst from a MP5, an FN-FNC, and a
FN-FAL. One is a submachine gun firing 9mm, one is an assault rifle
firing 5.56mm, and the last is a battle rifle firing 7.62mm. One of the
reasons the US military switched from 7.62mm to 5.56mm (besides the fact
that the rest of NATO had already) is that 5.56mm has much less recoil, so
the M16 have a faster rate of fire. Battle rifles that fire the 7.62mm,
like the FN-FNC, are much more deadly, but they are also harder to
control. How you work this into playability is hard. I do agree that a 6
round burst from HV weapons should only get a +3 modifier. You are
trading penetration power for ability to saturate the area with lead. If
you are only light armor, an HV weapon is really going to rip you appart.
If you are wearing any hardered armor, like medium sec armor with gel
packs, you are just going to shrug off the bullets.
Message no. 16
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:28:56 +0000
In message <2.2.32.19961205221653.006f59e8@********.cis.yale.edu>, David
Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU> writes
>It's all conservation of momentum, if you assume that light pistol rounds
>are half the mass of LMG or assault rifle rounds (which isn't ludicrous)

Why? Some people claim that 9mm is a light pistol round and SR "heavy
pistols" are assorted Desert Eagles, 10mm automatics et al.

In that case, in momentum terms for an LMG, you're comparing a 115-grain
bullet at 1300fps (NATO-standard 9mm) to a 55-grain bullet at 3150fps
(NATO-standard 5.56mm).

No comparison in kinetic energy terms, but not much difference in terms
of momentum and hence recoil.

SR's recoil rules are seriously cockeyed; firing a 1944-manufactured
Bren Gun I got thirty rounds' worth of four- and five-round bursts into
a six-inch group at 100 yards, with no gas vents or other aids. This is
a 7.62mm machine gun we're talking here, I should have been on +10s.

"Reason and logic" and "FASA firearm rules" do not mix :) Luckily
they're playable, at least.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: Dreamcatcher <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:00:13 +0000
[snip: various HVAR and HVLMG posts]

Just take a pencil and change the base damage code of the HVLMG from
6S to 9S.

-Dreamcatcher
Message no. 18
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:54:44 -0700
> Hey, are my posts not getting to the list, I've argued for why HV weapons
> should be +3 recoil per burst twice now, is anybody getting these?
> --Sanction

Yup. They're getting here, all right. Don't you get a copy of your own
messages? There a LISTSERV command that will change that if you don't,
but I don't happen to have it right now.
-Tom-
Message no. 19
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:56:41 -0700
> >damage for the HVLMG isn't correct -- 6S for one shot, at 6 rounds makes
> >12D, not 15D as it says in Fields of Fire.
>
> Perhaps the Power goes up because the damage hits Deadly?
> e.g. first three rounds raise the code from 6S to 9D
>
> next three rounds raise the code to 12D and up the damage level by one,
> but since it's already Deadly it raises the Power by +3 instead?
>
> Unfortunately that doesn't apply anywhere else, or a HMG would do 19D
> for a six-round burst...

The reason they did it, I think, is so that the HVLMG would have better
bursts than the HVAR. 15D as opposed to 12D for the HVAR.

-Tom-
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:05:34 +0100
Sanction said on 14:11/ 5 Dec 96...

> Yeah, except, they fire the 6 round burst with a recoil penalty of +3 to TN
> per burst. (At least, that seems to be what they mean my "as normal
> weapons" because normal weapons take +3 TN per burst).

It's another one of those vague areas: I took "as normal weapons" to mean
+1 per round fired, making a superMG burst get a +6 recoil modifier, not
+3. Still, either way is just as valid until it gets cleared up...

> Also, that 3 points of recoil mod's is some kind of integrel barrel device,
> (though not necessarily a gas vent) -- hence the inability to accept barrel
> mounts.

If it can't accept barrel-mounted accessories, the recoil comp must be a
gas vent. (I find FoF a bit patronizing in that respect -- at least the
SSC just said "Comes with a rating 3 gas vent on the barrel.")

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
This is a recording.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:05:34 +0100
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) said on 10:03/ 5 Dec 96...

> I think the reason that the HVLMG's burst damage is listed as 15D
> instead of 12D like it should be figured, is that otherwise there would
> be no difference between the HVLMG and the HVAR on a 6 round burst.

There isn't, unless you use some overdamage house rule. For example, an
HVAR firing a 6-round bursts does 12D, an HVLMG actually does 12D+1.
Assuming the firer and target roll the same number of successes, in my
game (s)he's take 10 boxes of damage from the HVAR, but 11 boxes from the
HVLMG.

> The way we figure HVLMG damage in my group, (house rule here), is that
> the 4th, 5th, and 6th round ONLY in a burst add +2 to the power instead
> of just +1. So a 3 round burst would be 9D, a 5 round burst would be
> 13D, and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round
> burst calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
> superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.

Sounds like a workable idea, if you also apply this rule to normal bursts
of more than 3 rounds, for example an AK-97 firing 10 rounds should also
do 21D (if you manage to hit with it, that is...).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
This is a recording.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:05:34 +0100
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson said on 19:15/ 5 Dec 96...

> One of the reasons the US military switched from 7.62mm to 5.56mm
> (besides the fact that the rest of NATO had already)

<history lesson> The US Air Force was the first to adopt a 5.56 mm rifle
in the early 1960s -- the Armalite AR-15, to be precise. The rest of the
American armed forces also took it up, as the M16, during the 1960s, first
only for airmobile units (US Marines used M14s until the 1970s, in
addition to M16s). Only around 1980 did a modified version of the 5.56 mm
round (FN's SS109) get NATO-standarized, but in the mean time several
countries had adopted the original American M193 round as well (usually
because they chose the M16 rifle for their armed forces). </history
lesson>

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
This is a recording.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 23
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:22:19 -0500
>
> > The way we figure HVLMG damage in my group, (house rule here), is that
> > the 4th, 5th, and 6th round ONLY in a burst add +2 to the power instead
> > of just +1. So a 3 round burst would be 9D, a 5 round burst would be
> > 13D, and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round
> > burst calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
> > superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.
>
> Sounds like a workable idea, if you also apply this rule to normal bursts
> of more than 3 rounds, for example an AK-97 firing 10 rounds should also
> do 21D (if you manage to hit with it, that is...).
>
This is an example of one of my pet annoyances with shadowrun's combat
system -- the long bursts, especiallly with machineguns or similiar
things. Here is my take on the situation. you have an SAW on a bipod and
you let off a 18 round burst at some target you see. You don't really
care if half of the bullets of the burst miss because you are sending
enough lead down range to make it a moot point. It's alot more like the
rules for surpressive fire, I agree. The point is...you don't care about
missing rounds with a machine gun cause you can walk the bullets right up
the guy.

Another question, has anyone figured out the difference in probable damage
between if someone fired a 15 round burst at someone or just put 15 rounds
of surpressive fire in the one meter area that they are standing?

Sorry, I'm done bitching...
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 07:27:28 -0700
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
|
|Another question, has anyone figured out the difference in probable damage
|between if someone fired a 15 round burst at someone or just put 15 rounds
|of surpressive fire in the one meter area that they are standing?

Check out the following rules that Damion came up with...

--
Damion's Shadowrun House Rules
******************************

3.5 Autofire
=============

My second greatest gripe about the Shadowrun system has always been
that autofire actually decreased your chances of doing any damage (p. 92-93
SRII). The idea of autofire is that one sprays the area, or releases a
stream of bullets at a single target, in an effort to significantly increase
the chances of doing damage, and hopefully hit with more than one would
normally hit with, thus also slightly increasing the damage done. However,
in Shadowrun, when one uses autofire, one drastically increases the damage
done, and drastically decreases the odds of doing so. I have fiddled with
many autofire systems over the ages, but the most satisfying ones were
always far too complicated, convoluted and involved too much brain strain to
be practicable (thanks Rick Bukowski anyhow). Those simpler systems I found
unsatisfying (thanks anyway Topcat). I am open to suggestions. At this
present time, I use a system based upon Igor's "Homebrew" Autofire Rules and
Brett Barksdale's Autofire rules (thanks' guys, yours are fairly easy to use
and do a good job!).

The system basically works by comparing the best roll made on the
firer's skill test to the TN required for a single shot (SS TN) to hit, and
the TN required for the automatic burst to hit (FA TN). If the best roll is
lower than the SS TN, then no rounds will hit. If the best roll is higher
than the SS TN but lower than the FA TN, then some rounds will hit. If the
best roll is higher than the FA TN, then all rounds will hit. This system
will also work for bursts (which are essentially smaller allocations of
autofire), as well as for multiple targets.

1. Determine SS TN (the TN for a single shot to hit, ie including
all modifiers except the recoil).

2. Determine FA TN. Unlike the Shadowrun rules (p. 1 Shadowrun II
Errata) I do not apply a recoil modifier for the 1st round fired in
a Combat Phase. Thus 10 rounds of uncompensated recoil from an
assault rifle would give a +9 recoil modifier.

3. Note the successes rolled for the SS TN. This is the number of
successes generated for the automatic burst. If no successes are
scored at the SS TN, then the entire automatic burst is a miss.
(Yes, this does mean that often many successes will be generated -
nobody said autofire would be friendly to the target.)

4. Note the highest number rolled for the success test. This number
determines just how many rounds in the automatic burst actually hit
the target. If the highest number rolled is higher than the FA TN,
then all rounds hit. If the highest number rolled is less than the
FA TN, then only a portion of the rounds fired actually hit. The
number of rounds that hit depends on the recoil modifier per round
of the weapon that was being fired (eg +1 for normal small arms and
firearms; +2 for heavy weapons, miniguns and Victory Rotary Assault
Cannons; +3 for Vigilant Rotary Autocannons).

4.1 For normal small arms and firearms: Subtract the
highest number rolled from the FA TN. This is the number of
rounds that /do not/ hit.

4.2 For heavy weapons, miniguns, Victory Rotary Assault
Cannons and other weapons with a +2 recoil modifier:
Subtract the highest number rolled from the FA TN. Divide
this number by 2 and /round up/. This is the number of
rounds that /do not/ hit.

4.3 For Vigilant Rotary Autocannons and any other weapon
with a +3 recoil modifier: Subtract the highest number
rolled from the FA TN. Divide this number by 3 and /round
up/. This is the number of rounds that /do not/ hit.

5. Calculate the damage code in the normal Shadowrun manner (ie add
one to the Damage Category for every full multiple of three rounds,
and add one to the Power Level for each round in the automatic
burst).

6. Whack target.

Time for a few examples:

Ex. Andre is wielding an AK-97 SMG Carbine. He has a Firearms skill of 6,
but is wussing out and saving his Combat Pool for later. He has the weapon
loaded up with a Gas Vent III and a Laser Sight. Andre is a strong fragger
(Strength 9), and so from FoF (p. 83) he gets 3 extra recoil compensation
points. The lucky target of Andre's 10 round FA burst is a quickly running
(+1 TN) and very frightened ganger. It is fairly dim so a lighting modifier
of +2 applies, and the range is Short. Thus Andre's SS TN is 4 + 1 + 2 - 1 =
6. His FA TN is 6 + 9 - 3 - 3 = 9. Rolling his dice, Andre gets
1,2,3,5,5,8. This is 1 success at the SS TN. Andr missed the FA TN by 1,
so 1 round does not hit. The final damage code that the poor ganger suffers
is 15D.

Ex. Venus is wielding her trusty M22-A2, all fitted out with Gas Vent 2 and
a Smartgun link. She's feeling happy and decides to lay into the Jolly
Roger security guard with a 10 round burst. Unfortunately for the guard,
he's not running, and lighting conditions are good. Venus has average
Strength, so she gains no extra recoil compensation from this source. Her SS
TN is thus 4 - 2 = 2, and her FA TN is thus 2 + 9 - 2 = 9. She rolls her
Firearms of 5 plus 2 from her Combat Pool and gets: 1,3,4,4,4,5,8. This is
7 successes at the SS TN (remembering that the 8 counts as 2 successes due to
the modified "Rule of 6"). She hits with 10 - (9 - 8) = 9 of the 10 rounds.
The final damage suffered by the now Swiss cheese impersonating guard is 17D
with 7 successes.

Ex. Pyro the Fire Elemental Adept is in a bad way. He's copped a Serious
Stun from his last spell, the bad dudes are closing in and all he's got left
is his (ex)friends FN-HAR assault rifle that has no useful additions (except
the Smartlink that Pyro can't use). Pyro decides to lay in, and fires a 10
round spray in the general direction of the nearest wannabe Pyro
executioner. Fortunately for Pyro (or perhaps not) the lighting conditions
are good and the range is Short. Pyro's SS TN is thus 4 + 3 = 7. His FA TN
is 7 + 9 = 16. Rolling his dice, all 4 of them, Pyro rolls 4,4,7,11 - not
bad. This gives him 2 successes at the SS TN, and allows him to hit with 10
- (16 - 11) = 5 rounds. This generates a 13S damage code with 2 successes
for the bad guy to resist.

Ex. Bubba the troll has a gyromounted Vindicator minigun and a bad
attitude. He decides to let loose at that pesky Lone Star Yellowjacket
that's annoyingly launching rockets in his direction. 15 rounds leave the
weapon in the general direction of the chopper. Bubba has 5 points of
recoil compensation from the Gyromount, and 4 from his high Strength. The
chopper is at Medium range, but Bubba has a Smartlink attached to the gun.
His SS TN is thus 5 - 2 = 3. His FA TN is 3 + (15 - 5 - 4 - 1)x2 = 13
(remembering that miniguns have a +2 recoil modifier and that the first
round does not require recoil compensation). Bubba has a Firearms skill of
5, and decides the chopper worthy of 5 more dice from his Combat Pool (he
ain't 'fraid o' no rockets!). Bubba rolls 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. A Straight
- pity he's not playing Poker. Bubba thus has 10 successes for his burst
(the 9 and 10 count as 2 each). The number of rounds that miss is (13 -
10)/2 = 2 (rounding up). Thus Bubba hits with 13 rounds, for a damage code
of 20D backed up by 10 successes. Even with the reductions for the vehicular
nature of the target and it's armour, that helo is in a bad way.

If multiple targets are being engaged with the one burst, then the
procedure is pretty much the same, but with a recalculation of the SS TN and
FA TN for each target, based upon what has occurred before the attack on
that target.

Ex. Trev Caligula is out of his element with an automatic weapon, but no
matter, he's going to hose as many of those Humanis gumbies as he can. Trev
has an AK-97 with a Gas Vent II and a Laser Sight on it, and is strong
enough to obtain 2 points of recoil reduction. He decides to open up on the
Humanis scum when they're a fair distance away (after all, discretion is the
better part of valour and all that), at Long range. No other modifiers
apply. Trev decides that Humanis scuzzbucket 1 deserves a 3 round burst, as
does his buddy 2. Since Trev's going for the maximum damage he can, Humanis
scuzzbuckets 3 and 4 will each get 2 rounds sent their way.

Trev's SS TN is thus 6 - 1 = 5 for the 1st Humanis dropkick. His FA TN for
the 1st target is also 5 (the Gas Vent compensates for rounds 2 and 3 and
round 1 doesn't need recoil compensation). For the 2nd target, the SS TN is
5 + 2 = 7 (additional target), and the FA TN is 8 (Trev's Strength can
handle rounds 4 and 5 but not 6). For target numero 3, the SS TN is 8 + 2 +
1 = 11 (this would be round 7, which is not the first round of the Combat
Phase, and thus requires compensation - something that Trev does not have
left). Lucky number 3's FA TN is 12 (there's only 1 round after the first).
The final Humanis slitch will have a SS TN of 12 + 2 + 1 = 15, and a FA TN
of 16.

Trev opens up, he has a Firearms of 4, and 6 Combat Pool dice to throw
around. He allocates none to the first 2 rolls, and 3 each to the second
2. For his 1st target, he has a SS TN of 5, and a FA TN of 5. He rolls his
4 dice and comes up with 3,3,5,5, which is 2 successes. Target 1 has an 11S
burst with 2 successes to weather. For the 2nd target, Trev needs 7's for
the SS TN, and 8's for the FA TN. He generates 1,2,5,7, which is one
success, and which misses out on the FA TN by 1. Thus target 2 cops a 2
round burst with 1 success, which comes to 10M. Target 3 is lucky, as Trev
needs 11 for the SS TN and 12 for the FA TN. Trev only comes up with
2,3,4,4,7,8,10. Damn, oh well, perhaps the stray shots will hit another
Humanis target. For the last target, Trev needs 15 for the SS TN and 16 for
the FA TN. He rolls 1,1,3,5,8,9,15, which gets him 1 success for the SS TN
and misses the FA TN by 1. Thus target 4 only takes a single round with 1
success, ie 8M.

Ex. Caligula is going to fire two bursts from his HK-227S at the corp
types' bodyguards. The lighting is good, Caligula has the weapon
smartlinked, and the men in shades and long coats aren't moving very fast.
Since the range is Short, Caligula has a SS TN for the 1st bodyguard of 4 -
2 = 2. Caligula, not being terribly strong, has no recoil bonuses. Thus his
FA TN for the 1st bodyguard is 2 + 2 = 4. For the 2nd burst, at the 2nd
bodyguard, Caligula's SS TN is 4 + 2 + 1 = 7 (due to the recoil and the
additional target). The FA TN for this second bodyguard is 7 + 2 = 9.
Rolling his Firearms of 3, and adding no Combat Pool dice, Caligula rolls
1,3,4, which is 2 successes, and all rounds hitting the first bodyguard, for
a Damage Code of 10S. For the second bodyguard, Caligula adds 3 dice from
his Combat Pool, and generates 2,3,4,4,5,8. This is 1 success, and Caligula
missed the FA TN by 1, so 1 round misses. The 2nd bodyguard thus suffers a
9M attack with 1 success.

The only comments I have to make on these autofire rules is that
they require a bit more mental gymnastics than the Shadowrun vanilla rules,
and they make autofire quite a dangerous thing to contend with. As it should
be.

--
-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 07:44:05 -0700
Gurth wrote:
|
|Sanction said on 14:11/ 5 Dec 96...
|
|> Yeah, except, they fire the 6 round burst with a recoil penalty of +3 to TN
|> per burst. (At least, that seems to be what they mean my "as normal
|> weapons" because normal weapons take +3 TN per burst).
|
|It's another one of those vague areas: I took "as normal weapons" to mean
|+1 per round fired, making a superMG burst get a +6 recoil modifier, not
|+3. Still, either way is just as valid until it gets cleared up...
|
|> Also, that 3 points of recoil mod's is some kind of integrel barrel device,
|> (though not necessarily a gas vent) -- hence the inability to accept barrel
|> mounts.
|
|If it can't accept barrel-mounted accessories, the recoil comp must be a
|gas vent. (I find FoF a bit patronizing in that respect -- at least the
|SSC just said "Comes with a rating 3 gas vent on the barrel.")

I thought the recoil comp came from the fact that it has a rotating barrel.
But then if you follow this logic then miniguns would get 6 points of
recoil comp (6 barrels). Which I don't mind.

The whole problem with the HVs is that no explanation whatsoever is given,
or it's misleading (like the HVAR saying that the Smartlink II provides 3
points of recoil comp, yet no mention of recoil comp is listed in the
Smartlink II rules).

<house rule> Rotating barrel weapons (miniguns and HVs) gain one point of
recoil compensation per barrel. </house rule>

This solves the recoil problem and doesn't conflict with the rules saying
that miniguns can't take barrel mounts.

<house fix> The base damage for a HVLMG is 9S instead of 6S. </house fix>

And this fixes the staging problem of the HVLMG.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 26
From: Silvio Sampietro <cyric@*****.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:50:00 MET
At 19:54 05.12.1996 -0700, you wrote:
>> Hey, are my posts not getting to the list, I've argued for why HV weapons
>> should be +3 recoil per burst twice now, is anybody getting these?
>> --Sanction
>
>Yup. They're getting here, all right. Don't you get a copy of your own
>messages? There a LISTSERV command that will change that if you don't,
>but I don't happen to have it right now.
>-Tom-
>
The commands are:
SET SHADOWRN REPRO (U´ll get a copy of ur mail delivered to the list)
SET SHADOWRN ACK (U´ll be notified each time listserv got a mail from u)
Message no. 27
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:46:15 -0700
> There isn't, unless you use some overdamage house rule. For example, an
> HVAR firing a 6-round bursts does 12D, an HVLMG actually does 12D+1.
> Assuming the firer and target roll the same number of successes, in my
> game (s)he's take 10 boxes of damage from the HVAR, but 11 boxes from the
> HVLMG.

Hmm... interesting idea...

> > The way we figure HVLMG damage in my group, (house rule here), is that
> > the 4th, 5th, and 6th round ONLY in a burst add +2 to the power instead
> > of just +1. So a 3 round burst would be 9D, a 5 round burst would be
> > 13D, and a 15 round burst would be 24D. And of course, the six-round
> > burst calcs out to 15D; as it is listed. <grin>. This way, the HVLMG is
> > superior to the HVAR on 6+ round bursts.
>
> Sounds like a workable idea, if you also apply this rule to normal bursts
> of more than 3 rounds, for example an AK-97 firing 10 rounds should also
> do 21D (if you manage to hit with it, that is...).

I wouldn't think so... I would just apply the extra +1s for the HVLMG...
to differentiate between it and the HVAR...

-Tom-
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:54:02 +0100
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) said on 10:46/ 6 Dec 96...

> > There isn't, unless you use some overdamage house rule. For example, an
> > HVAR firing a 6-round bursts does 12D, an HVLMG actually does 12D+1.
> > Assuming the firer and target roll the same number of successes, in my
> > game (s)he's take 10 boxes of damage from the HVAR, but 11 boxes from the
> > HVLMG.
>
> Hmm... interesting idea...

I've used this house rule for quite some time, and I'm much happier with
it than the over-damage rules from Fields of Fire and the SR Companion.
In comes down to letting over-damage start at Light, and every damage
level increase works as normal -- so if you shoot 9 rounds with a weapon
doing 8M damage (your target rolls against 17 here), and you get 2
successes, the target takes 16 boxes damage: 10 for the normal Deadly
wound, and then there is enough left to stage it up 3 times, to Serious
again.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Laat het los.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:54:01 +0100
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson said on 8:22/ 6 Dec 96...

> This is an example of one of my pet annoyances with shadowrun's combat
> system -- the long bursts, especiallly with machineguns or similiar
> things. Here is my take on the situation. you have an SAW on a bipod and
> you let off a 18 round burst at some target you see. You don't really
> care if half of the bullets of the burst miss because you are sending
> enough lead down range to make it a moot point. It's alot more like the
> rules for surpressive fire, I agree. The point is...you don't care about
> missing rounds with a machine gun cause you can walk the bullets right up
> the guy.

Ah yes, another one of the immortal debates :) There have been several
sets of house rules posted on the list to make full-auto fire less of an
all-or-nothing affair, but I would have to search hard on my HD to find a
set... Damion probably has several of them, though.

> Another question, has anyone figured out the difference in probable damage
> between if someone fired a 15 round burst at someone or just put 15 rounds
> of surpressive fire in the one meter area that they are standing?

Quite a lot, IMHO. I;m not much good at calculating probabilities, but I
don know that 10 rolls with up to 15 dice against a TN 4 or so are better
than one roll with 10 dice (skill + pool) against a 20. Unfortunately,
suppression fire causes very little damage unless you're using at least a
LMG, so most targets will be able to stage it down far enough not to
suffer from the individual attacks too much.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Laat het los.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 30
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:58:24 -0800
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:54:44 -0700, Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:

>Yup. They're getting here, all right. Don't you get a copy of your own
>messages? There a LISTSERV command that will change that if you don't,
>but I don't happen to have it right now.
>-Tom-

I just had to do that. It is SET SHADOWRN REPRO.
Send it to listserv@********.itribe.net.
Another one that is nice is SET SHADOWRN ACK.
This will send you a brief acknowledgement that your message made it
to the list.


=====================|===========================================
DREKHEAD | --- www.aol.users.com\drekhead\home.html ---
drekhead@***.net | "Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
=====================|===========================================
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Message no. 31
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 10:21:29 -0700
>>> There isn't, unless you use some overdamage house rule. For example, an
>>> HVAR firing a 6-round bursts does 12D, an HVLMG actually does 12D+1.
>>> Assuming the firer and target roll the same number of successes, in my
>>> game (s)he's take 10 boxes of damage from the HVAR, but 11 boxes from the
>>> HVLMG.

> I've used this house rule for quite some time, and I'm much happier with
> it than the over-damage rules from Fields of Fire and the SR Companion.
> In comes down to letting over-damage start at Light, and every damage
> level increase works as normal -- so if you shoot 9 rounds with a weapon
> doing 8M damage (your target rolls against 17 here), and you get 2
> successes, the target takes 16 boxes damage: 10 for the normal Deadly
> wound, and then there is enough left to stage it up 3 times, to Serious
> again.

That is REALLY fraggin lethal! *OUCH*

-Tom-
Message no. 32
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 10:35:22 -0700
> Quite a lot, IMHO. I;m not much good at calculating probabilities, but I
> don know that 10 rolls with up to 15 dice against a TN 4 or so are better
> than one roll with 10 dice (skill + pool) against a 20. Unfortunately,
> suppression fire causes very little damage unless you're using at least a
> LMG, so most targets will be able to stage it down far enough not to
> suffer from the individual attacks too much.

The HV weapons work wonders for suppression fire. <grin>.

-Tom-
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:42:15 +0100
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) said on 10:21/ 7 Dec 96...

[snip my overdamage house rule]
>
> That is REALLY fraggin lethal! *OUCH*

It is, though perhaps I should mention the campaign I ran for about 3
years (it seems to have come to an end because I haven't seen the main
player in over a month) had a street sam with a Body of 12 in it, so you
have to think of something to keep him scared :)

Anyway IMHO it only stands to reason that firearms attacks should be
lethal, and not allowing the players to count on "I'm uninjured right
now, so whatever happens I've got plenty of time left if I take a Deadly
wound" makes it much more so. A few more house rules for a deadlier game
that I tend to use:

* adjust the 10 minutes per extra box overflow to an open-ended 1D6; roll
every time a box is taken to see how long you have until th next box.
This stops the "I've got 2 boxes overflow, so get me to a hospital in 30
minutes!!" syndrome.
* if the target's armor rating is greater than the attacker's Power Level,
every 2 excess points give an extra die to roll to resist the damage.
This not so much makes the game more lethal, but gives powerful NPCs
(bugs, dragons, etc.) a higher chance to survive FA shotgun fire, making
them more dangerouns to the PCs.
* allow grenade launchers to be fired against point targets like normal
firearms, and stage the damage for the successes rolled (I've done away
with staging grenades up in any other way, though I think I'll use the
new rules from the Companion here).
* fire 6-round FA bursts in a turn, instead of two, 3-round BF ones. Okay,
not every NPC will do this, but highly trained ones would, IMO (see the
Senior Technicians from Ivy & Chrome for an example).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Laat het los.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: Graht <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:28:29 -0700
I wrote about "Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post":

> <house rule> Rotating barrel weapons (miniguns and HVs) gain one point of
> recoil compensation per barrel. </house rule>

I've been thinking about this and found that it really doesn't work.
The HV weapons probably have a gas vent incorporated into each
barrel, like Gurth said.

> <house fix> The base damage for a HVLMG is 9S instead of 6S. </house fix>

And after consideration this isn't the best way to take care of it.
Could the person who posted about adding +2 to the power of the 4th,
5th and 6th rounds of the HVLMG send that to me again (personally
please)?

-Graht

"Pick up the door."
"...Hey, Kunds!"
Message no. 35
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 13:49:30 -0700
> Anyway IMHO it only stands to reason that firearms attacks should be
> lethal, and not allowing the players to count on "I'm uninjured right
> now, so whatever happens I've got plenty of time left if I take a Deadly
> wound" makes it much more so. A few more house rules for a deadlier game
> that I tend to use:
>
> * adjust the 10 minutes per extra box overflow to an open-ended 1D6; roll
> every time a box is taken to see how long you have until th next box.
> This stops the "I've got 2 boxes overflow, so get me to a hospital in 30
> minutes!!" syndrome.

Yup. That's what we do.

> * if the target's armor rating is greater than the attacker's Power Level,
> every 2 excess points give an extra die to roll to resist the damage.
> This not so much makes the game more lethal, but gives powerful NPCs
> (bugs, dragons, etc.) a higher chance to survive FA shotgun fire, making
> them more dangerouns to the PCs.

Good idea. Never thought about that. It does seem kinda silly that
having the same armor rating (as the power) or a much higher armor rating
(than the power) does nothing for the defender.

> * allow grenade launchers to be fired against point targets like normal
> firearms, and stage the damage for the successes rolled (I've done away
> with staging grenades up in any other way, though I think I'll use the
> new rules from the Companion here).

That EXACTLY how we handle in (in my group). You can only stage damage
if you fire it directly, to hit an individual. You ahve to subtract
successes to reduce scatter first, then remaining successes stage
damage. The targets in the vicinity only suffer normal damage tho. (No
staging, as they weren't the intended target.)

> * fire 6-round FA bursts in a turn, instead of two, 3-round BF ones. Okay,
> not every NPC will do this, but highly trained ones would, IMO (see the
> Senior Technicians from Ivy & Chrome for an example).

My favorite gun in the game, the Ares Alpha, with G4, and shock
pad... 7-round bursts with *no* recoil mods, oh yeah... EX-explosives in
it. 17D is pretty nasty!

-Tom-
Message no. 36
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:25:55 -0000
> > * adjust the 10 minutes per extra box overflow to an open-ended 1D6;
roll
> > every time a box is taken to see how long you have until th next box.
> > This stops the "I've got 2 boxes overflow, so get me to a hospital in
30
> > minutes!!" syndrome.
>
> Yup. That's what we do.

Interesting idea. I may have to look into using this. Leaves it a little
more up in the air as to how long your downed buddy will last.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

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Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
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Message no. 37
From: Graht <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:51:16 -0700
Gurth wrote about "Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post":

> * adjust the 10 minutes per extra box overflow to an open-ended
> 1D6; roll every time a box is taken to see how long you have until
> the next box. This stops the "I've got 2 boxes overflow, so get
> me to a hospital in 30 minuts!!" syndrome.

How about adding the character's Body to the 1d6 roll? Just a
thought.

-Graht

"Pick up the door."
"...Hey, Kunds!"
Message no. 38
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:55:19 -0800
From: Graht <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
> Gurth wrote about "Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post":
>
> > * adjust the 10 minutes per extra box overflow to an open-ended
> > 1D6; roll every time a box is taken to see how long you have until
> > the next box. This stops the "I've got 2 boxes overflow, so get
> > me to a hospital in 30 minuts!!" syndrome.
>
> How about adding the character's Body to the 1d6 roll? Just a
> thought.
>
The character's Body is already taken into account since it is the
number of boxes of overflow the character can withstand before
dying. Adding it into the formula would effectively count it twice.

Mike
Message no. 39
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: An Actual Shadowrun Post
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:48:32 -0000
> > > * adjust the 10 minutes per extra box overflow to an open-ended
> > > 1D6; roll every time a box is taken to see how long you have until
> > > the next box. This stops the "I've got 2 boxes overflow, so get
> > > me to a hospital in 30 minuts!!" syndrome.
> >
> > How about adding the character's Body to the 1d6 roll? Just a
> > thought.
> >
> The character's Body is already taken into account since it is the
> number of boxes of overflow the character can withstand before
> dying. Adding it into the formula would effectively count it twice.
>
> Mike

Agreed. I don't see that it should be added to the die roll, since it is
already setting the threshold. Besides adding it in takes away the mystery
of how long they can lie their bleeding. If you add the body in, say they
have a body of four, then they can count each box being at least five
minutes which puts you back with what we're trying to avoid here.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

***********************************************************************
Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
***********************************************************************

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--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---

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Thwap!