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Message no. 1
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:24:02 -0800
One of my players brought up something the other night. He wanted to know
if there were androids in SR.. or anything close..like replicants from BR.

I did notice some things that could be in the same family while flipping
through RA:S but I don't know if they are considered androids.

I almost think it would be cool to have someone play a character that is
like DATA from ST:TNG who is a decker.

Ed



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Ed Mayhall "Killing is my business
Dallas, Tx and business is GOOD!"

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Message no. 2
From: Rick j Federle griffinhq@****.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:54:14 -0500
You might try an amorphform drone with a semiautonomous knowbot for
programming.
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Message no. 3
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:52:27 +1000
>One of my players brought up something the other night. He wanted to know
>if there were androids in SR.. or anything close..like replicants from BR.
>
>I did notice some things that could be in the same family while flipping
>through RA:S but I don't know if they are considered androids.
>
>I almost think it would be cool to have someone play a character that is
>like DATA from ST:TNG who is a decker.


Definition time; Android as in human-like synthetic creation of man,
intelligent, capable of learning, independent etc...

To my knowledge, there are none. The closest are either the cybermancy
created people (though they're closer to cyborg) or the (rumoured) super AIs
in the matrix. The AIs sort of count, as if they found a cybernetic body
out of the matrix, they could control it, but would not be independent, as
they wouldn't be able to download their intelligence to it and leave the
matrix.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:19:31 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Ed wrote:

> One of my players brought up something the other night. He wanted to know
> if there were androids in SR.. or anything close..like replicants from BR.

Well, aside from the terminology issue, this sort of thing is
possible in the rules as written - sort of. Consdier the following
example:

You have an anthroform drone, whose form is as close to human
proportions as possible (there may be some difficulty here considering you
need to cram in a powerplant and scads of electronics and gyros, but if
cyberlimbs can be done, I'm sure you could swing it). Give it an
excessively high robotics rating. Cover it with synthetic skin (as
described in Cybertechnology). Voila! You have yourself an "android" of
sorts.
Granted, it probably won't be able to pass for human, as it won't
have human mannerisms, etc. Then there's the weight issue. Also,
synthetic skin doesn't really look all that natural, so someone could tell
that it was mechanical fairly easily. But could they tell from across the
street? What if the anthroform was wearing a trenchcoat and hat?
Something like this probably isn't feasible in the "Hahahahaa, you
have fallen for the seduction of my waiflike android spymistress!" sense.
But it just might work in the "Hey, there's some guy hanging out by the
loading dock, go check it out" kind of sense, which would make a pretty
great distraction. If security's rousting your vagrant-posing anthroform
droid, they're not paying attention to you. Further, using an anthroform
is better than using a team member, because the anthroform isn't a real
person, and thus won't be identified in a lineup or leave fingerprints
or DNA on the scene.
Just a thought...

Marc
Message no. 5
From: Jill jmenning@*****.edu
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:26:37 -0700
Ed wrote:

> One of my players brought up something the other night. He wanted to know
> if there were androids in SR.. or anything close..like replicants from BR.

We just finished a campaign where a group had created life-like people by
using a computer to mimic the signals the brain sends to cyberware. Human
controllers defined the goal and an approach, and the AI dealt with minor
adjustments to the plan. Anything major threw them for a loop, though, and
they just ran off. Supposedly a "secret research department" in Ares was
developing them.

Jill
Message no. 6
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:21:26 -0600
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:54:14 -0500 Rick j Federle <griffinhq@****.com>
writes:
> You might try an amorphform drone with a semiautonomous
>knowbot for programming.

Quote what you are replying to! :)

I would also increase the cost +5% for a semi-natural covering (See page
30 of Cybertechnology. Cost is +10% divided by 2 as per cyberarm mods
for mechanical limbs.). This is based on the assumption that an
anthroform chassis is the equivalent to a full cybernetic body
replacement. You may wish to exclude some options from the cost increase
(such as RC and Rigger Adaptation or electronic systems) if they (In your
opinion don't really add to the bulk of the bot significantly.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 7
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 03:59:15 -0500
Slipspeed wrote:
>
> >One of my players brought up something the other night. He wanted to know
> >if there were androids in SR.. or anything close..like replicants from BR.
> >
> >I did notice some things that could be in the same family while flipping
> >through RA:S but I don't know if they are considered androids.
> >
> >I almost think it would be cool to have someone play a character that is
> >like DATA from ST:TNG who is a decker.
>
> Definition time; Android as in human-like synthetic creation of man,
> intelligent, capable of learning, independent etc...
>
> To my knowledge, there are none. The closest are either the cybermancy
> created people (though they're closer to cyborg) or the (rumoured) super AIs
> in the matrix. The AIs sort of count, as if they found a cybernetic body
> out of the matrix, they could control it, but would not be independent, as
> they wouldn't be able to download their intelligence to it and leave the
> matrix.
>
> Slipspeed
<sniped sig>

Ok, to expand on that a little, what if an AI got trapped in a drone or
something. Basing it on the rules for SKs in VR 2.0 what if the AI were
on a closed system, and it's only node were the remote control interface
for an anthropod? It sounds a tad corny, and the AI eould probly
eventually figure out some way to get into the rest of the matrix, but
it just could work.

If it were just an AI controling an anthro;pod, I wouldn't really see it
as an AI (myself, probly under definition it would fit but...) unless it
were confined to existance as one form. Doesn't really count if you can
switch bodys ever few nanoseconds...
Message no. 8
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:29:03 +1000
>Ok, to expand on that a little, what if an AI got trapped in a drone or
>something. Basing it on the rules for SKs in VR 2.0 what if the AI were
>on a closed system, and it's only node were the remote control interface
>for an anthropod? It sounds a tad corny, and the AI eould probly
>eventually figure out some way to get into the rest of the matrix, but
>it just could work.


If it were an AI, not an SK, then it'd die. VR2.0 hints that AIs require
massive amounts of computing power. Fit that much in anything less than a
large room? I think not... As it is, they are supposed to run off several
servers at once, at least - more if it's trying to hide it's processor
usage. If it's an SK, then it's an SK in a robotic shell, not an android.
Androids are supposed to be fully intelligent, learning from and reacting to
all aspects of their environment. SKs don't.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
can be counted" - Albert Einstein
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:36:45 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, grahamdrew wrote:

> Ok, to expand on that a little, what if an AI got trapped in a drone or
> something...

OK, I'm gonna have to nip this in the bud. The whole concept of
an AI is that it is a computer program that has enough computing
resources complexity to become self-aware, or nearly so. It's the kind of
thing one would expect to see in a massively networked system or a huge
computing infrastructure (a la an arcology's computer core, something that
must necessarily have a lot of computational juice).
The computational requirement necessary for an AI to exist and
function is massive. We're talking many, many CPU cycles here, as an AI
is essentially an *extremely* complicated, self-adapting program.

Just how is all this computational power going to fit in a drone?

This is the equivalent of trying to cram a human brain into an
ant's body. It's just not gonna work.
Now, having said that, I do think that there's merit to the idea
of an AI directing or controlling anthroform drones through normal
remote-control circuitry. But the AI isn't "trapped" in the drone, and if
the drone gets whacked the AI could care less (although this brings up the
interesting possibility of "dump shock" to the AI, though this seems
unlikely).
Further, the AI could probably make crude, primitive copies of
itself and put that into a drone, control programming which would function
as the drone's dog brain. But again, this isn't actually the AI itself.
What might be cool is to have an AI seeding pieces of itself in
the control programming of numerous drones, giving each the ability to
find others should that become necessary. Thus, when the government, the
military, the international communist conspiracy, or the immortal elven
magic cartel finally succeeds in destroying the AI, the tools are there
for the AI to essentially "rebuild" itself. Sowing the seeds of a future
generation, if you will. Thus, like the Phoenix (or a bad penny), the AI
is able to return once again.
Just a thought.

Marc
Message no. 10
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:17:11 -0800
Well I must say I have done it again...always asking the right questions to
get things going. :) Most of you have brought up the same thing I was
thinking...using Cybertechnology to create the "android" the only problem I
had was that is not the type of creation I wanted. Would it be bad to just
create an archetype and say it is an android? Would I have to actually
give it special abilities...besides a high intelligence.

One of the things I saw in the RA:S was the Medusa. Isn't this a type of
android? It sure sounded like one. Looked pretty real...well as real as a
freaky dog like think with tentacles could get.

Ed



- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "Killing is my business
Dallas, Tx and business is GOOD!"

The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
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Message no. 11
From: Steven McCormick stardust@***.net
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:13:55 -0600
At 03:59 AM 2/9/99 -0500, grahamdrew wrote:
>Ok, to expand on that a little, what if an AI got trapped in a drone or
>something. Basing it on the rules for SKs in VR 2.0 what if the AI were
>on a closed system, and it's only node were the remote control interface
>for an anthropod? It sounds a tad corny, and the AI eould probly
>eventually figure out some way to get into the rest of the matrix, but
>it just could work.
>
>If it were just an AI controling an anthro;pod, I wouldn't really see it
>as an AI (myself, probly under definition it would fit but...) unless it
>were confined to existance as one form. Doesn't really count if you can
>switch bodys ever few nanoseconds...
>

Just what in the woodchuck is an anthropod! That's anthroFORM, guy. :)

Back on topic. Here's my definition of what we're talking about.

Anthroform-- A human shaped drone. Can be quite sophisticated given a high
enough pilot program.
Robot-- Basically an anthroform with extremely complex learning alogrythms
(sp?).
Android-- Self aware robot. He's sentient. He can say the words "I am"
and mean it. IMO, an android doesn't necessarily have to look so much like
a human that he could be mistaken for one. Also, IMO, androids are not
possible in the Shadowrun universe... Well, maybe K and Herc's Shadowrun
universe. :)

BlueMule
Message no. 12
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@**********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:22:11 -0600
Ed wrote:

> Well I must say I have done it again...always asking the right questions to
> get things going. :) Most of you have brought up the same thing I was
> thinking...using Cybertechnology to create the "android" the only problem I
> had was that is not the type of creation I wanted. Would it be bad to just
> create an archetype and say it is an android? Would I have to actually
> give it special abilities...besides a high intelligence.
>
> One of the things I saw in the RA:S was the Medusa. Isn't this a type of
> android? It sure sounded like one. Looked pretty real...well as real as a
> freaky dog like think with tentacles could get.

Hummm maby we should all collaberate to write a story huh ed?

>
>
> Ed

Grimlakin
Message no. 13
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:57:07 -0600
At 06:22 PM 2/9/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Hummm maby we should all collaberate to write a story huh ed?

heh..I don't think the list was meant for continuous stories. :)

Ed
- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 14
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:31:04 -0600
:One of the things I saw in the RA:S was the Medusa. Isn't this a type of
:android? It sure sounded like one. Looked pretty real...well as real as
a
:freaky dog like think with tentacles could get.

No, The R:AS medusa is basically a crawler drone built pretty much as
a standard (but top of the line) robot per R2's robot rules. They are not
self aware (Deus wouldn't like that, even if he could do it), but are
(very) capable of autonomous function. They can still be controlled as
drones (but might be programmed to turn radio control off if they detect a
MIJI attack).

Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:41:29 +1100
>If it were an AI, not an SK, then it'd die. VR2.0 hints that AIs require
>massive amounts of computing power. Fit that much in anything less than a
>large room? I think not... As it is, they are supposed to run off several
>servers at once, at least - more if it's trying to hide it's processor
>usage. If it's an SK, then it's an SK in a robotic shell, not an android.
>Androids are supposed to be fully intelligent, learning from and reacting to
>all aspects of their environment. SKs don't.


Quantum Processing - afaik doesn't require that much room (in theory).
Anyway, I've been working on rules for 'Androids', and I'll post them up
when I've finished them.

And no, you can't play them as PCs... it'd be no fun.

:-)

---
"Wait a sec," Case said. "Are you sentient, or not?"
"Well, if feels like I am, kid..."
- William Gibson, Neuromancer.

hi tech. no life.

egoshrine: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/8905/
ICQ: 4340513
Dangermedia Guild Assassin: http://dangermedia.com
---
Message no. 16
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:38:31 -0700 (MST)
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Ed wrote:
/
/ Would it be bad to just
/ create an archetype and say it is an android?

That depends entirely on your game :) Try it out and see what happens.

/ Would I have to actually
/ give it special abilities...besides a high intelligence.

That's up to you and how you view androids. I think that Blade Runner
replicants would have a high intelligence, low charisma, and almost no
social skills. And their skill sets would be very specialized (no
hobbies).

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 17
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:45:07 EST
In a message dated 2/9/1999 1:21:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, renouf@*****
int.com writes:

> Further, using an anthroform
> is better than using a team member, because the anthroform isn't a real
> person, and thus won't be identified in a lineup or leave fingerprints
> or DNA on the scene.
> Just a thought...

I'll won't tell Kenny about your opinion of "real people" ... ;-P

-K (if you go to the site and dig around for a while, you *might* figure it
out)
Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:54:45 EST
In a message dated 2/9/1999 4:08:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
grahamdrew@*********.com writes:

>
> Ok, to expand on that a little, what if an AI got trapped in a drone or
> something. Basing it on the rules for SKs in VR 2.0 what if the AI were
> on a closed system, and it's only node were the remote control interface
> for an anthropod? It sounds a tad corny, and the AI eould probly
> eventually figure out some way to get into the rest of the matrix, but
> it just could work.
>
> If it were just an AI controling an anthro;pod, I wouldn't really see it
> as an AI (myself, probly under definition it would fit but...) unless it
> were confined to existance as one form. Doesn't really count if you can
> switch bodys ever few nanoseconds...

Uh, erm, hold on a second. What does switching bodies/shells have to do with
it being an AI or not? Take a good look at Deus from RA:S. *THAT* is what I
call drastic multi-personae....

-K
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:06:43 EST
In a message dated 2/9/1999 8:04:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Grimlakin@**********.com writes:

>
> > One of the things I saw in the RA:S was the Medusa. Isn't this a type of
> > android? It sure sounded like one. Looked pretty real...well as real as
> a
> > freaky dog like think with tentacles could get.
>
> Hummm maby we should all collaberate to write a story huh ed?

Actually, the Medusa seemed more like a cybernetically controlled mutant rat
to me, right down to the tail.

-K
Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Androids
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:01:04 EST
In a message dated 2/9/1999 5:23:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
stardust@***.net writes:

> Just what in the woodchuck is an anthropod! That's anthroFORM, guy. :)

Anthropod ... a human shaped pea-shell ???

> Back on topic. Here's my definition of what we're talking about.
>
> Anthroform-- A human shaped drone. Can be quite sophisticated given a high
> enough pilot program.

true

> Robot-- Basically an anthroform with extremely complex learning alogrythms
> (sp?).

It's actually a LOT more than this, but by remaining OnT to this, then your
definitions fits well enough.

> Android-- Self aware robot. He's sentient. He can say the words "I am"
> and mean it. IMO, an android doesn't necessarily have to look so much like
> a human that he could be mistaken for one. Also, IMO, androids are not
> possible in the Shadowrun universe... Well, maybe K and Herc's Shadowrun
> universe. :)

Possible, and given certain things in the SR Universe (Canon things no less),
it might even be possible. Does everyone have rules to make a character of
this type or nature. No, and neither do characters of this kind fit in every
game.

We've adventured using RA:S, and in one form or another, we've used material
equal to what's found within that book for years. So yes, I can honestly say
that "Androids" (as this topic is perusing) are not for everyone.

-K (and besides, "HAL 90K" isn't just a single unit)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Androids, you may also be interested in:

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