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Message no. 1
From: allura@***********.org (Allura nee Gwendolyn nee Veren)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:39:14 -0500
I was thinking today (yeah, scary thought...) - what would be different if
Shadowrun was created today? Sure, cyber & magic, living together. Same
base concept. But what if we project the tech & society aspects from today
forward, instead?

The specific item that made me think of this is my husband's shiny new
pda/phone combination (Pocket PC). He's nicknamed it his "pocket
secretary", for obvious reasons. :) The intersting thing, though, is to
compare it to the picutre of a pocket sec from SR - this pda is only about
the size of your hand, and maybe an inch thick. I'm not sure of the specs
off the top of my head, but I know he's put a 1Gb SD storage card in it.
Ever see one of them? They're TINY. In general, electronics today are much
smaller then Shadowrun projected. I'm typing this on a laptop with a
1900x1200 resolution 17" monitor, with oodles of processing, yet it's only 2
inches thick...and it has a wireless keyboard & mouse, as well as wireless
(and wired) network. Our wireless signal isn't too strong in this room, so
sometimes I ride an unsecured neighbor's signal. That's another bit of tech
hugely missing from Shadowrun - wireless networking. I can take my computer
to all sorts of business and be on the internet from their store - for free
in a lot of cases.

On the political/social side, I was thinking of one interesting facet of
Shadowrun - contract labor. Now, I can easily see a scenerio like the
Shiawase decision, giving corps the right to use deadly force on their
property. But no labor laws? That's hard to believe in this country, even
counting current politics (something I'm going to try to avoid since that's
a flamewar waiting to happen <g>). In general, it's a safe bet that you can
walk into any company in your industry and know a handful of people from
another place that you both worked. That's what's weird about the megacorps
- the people working there don't know anyone else in their industry, really.
I've seen this myself, and I have friends who have also seen this phenomona.
The pharma industry, one of the most paranoid industries today, is one where
you constantly see this. In fact, it's said that the only way to get
promoted is to change companies then come back again, two levels higher.
Even with pharama's paranoia in drug development, they're engineers
constantly trade ideas about how they solved such-and-such a problem (so
sayeth my boss when I worked as a controls engineer at Merck). IN
Shadowrun, the only way you'd talk to someone else is after you've been
extracted. I realize that this is a primary task for a shadowrun, but is it
reasonable? Obviously, it depends on complet extra-territoriality,
something I'm not convinced would actually happen today. It might - but
what would it take?

Would the megacorps be Japanese-oriented? Would companies even want to
merge outside their industry? Yeah, we've got "giants" in each industry,
but are they likely to merge so that one company makes cars, drugs, food,
etc?

OTOH, one thing I can easily see is a contracted out police force and other
services. But man, would that be lawsuit city in the US.

Here's another one - cyberware/decking. No data crash, but we still haven't
quite accomplished them. We're getting there, though. Ok, just looked it up
- ASIST came out in 2018 - we might beat it by a few years, but not by much,
I think.

Obviously, magic showing up in 2011 would wreck havonc. Would it trigger a
complete breakdown of the US?

So, let's bring Shadowrun's tech/social base up to date. What would be
different, what's the same? Discuss amongst yourselves <g>.

Joanna
-who apparently doesn't have enough email to deal with...:)
Message no. 2
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:41:50 -0800 (PST)
Dreamseekerr,

I would suggest you try and work with shadowrun as it
is currently published and find new and interesting
ways to make it work the way you want. A discussion
about the fundamental technological conception of the
setting would probably lead to a different world
altogether, much as the additions of new and exciting
technologies and occurrences have in fact changed its
appearance. Addition of a careful kind -not total
revisionism- might be the key to garnering responses
here.

Cheers,

Jan Jaap



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
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Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:26:03 +0100
According to Allura nee Gwendolyn nee Veren, on Wednesday 19 January 2005
22:39 the word on the street was...

> he's put a 1Gb SD storage
> card in it. Ever see one of them? They're TINY.

My iPod has a 20 GB hard drive in it, and the whole thing is slightly
smaller than the box of an old cassette tape. Although I haven't got a
clue what's actually inside, I suppose it could be a lot smaller still if
it didn't need to have an LCD screen and control "wheel" on it.

> In general, electronics today are much smaller then Shadowrun projected.

Good example: the Conceal of mobile phones. Even SR3 shows the Conceal of a
handset cellphone to be 3 (as it was in SR1 and SRII), when even in 1998
when this was written/revised, cellphones were a lot smaller than
Concealability 3 would indicate.

> On the political/social side, I was thinking of one interesting facet of
> Shadowrun - contract labor. Now, I can easily see a scenerio like the
> Shiawase decision, giving corps the right to use deadly force on their
> property. But no labor laws? That's hard to believe in this country,

Not just in yours.

> even counting current politics (something I'm going to try to avoid
> since that's a flamewar waiting to happen <g>). In general, it's a safe
> bet that you can walk into any company in your industry and know a
> handful of people from another place that you both worked.

Isn't this because today, people tend to change jobs a lot in search of the
maximum they can get out of their carreers? Whereas in the past (and this
still applies to older people, at least around here) people usually worked
their whole lives for the same boss. It could well be that by SR's time,
attitudes have shifted back toward that.

> Would the megacorps be Japanese-oriented? Would companies even want to
> merge outside their industry? Yeah, we've got "giants" in each
> industry, but are they likely to merge so that one company makes cars,
> drugs, food, etc?

I can see that happening: if, as happens today, a company wants to
diversify in order to get into a new market (usually one somewhat related
to the business they are already in), it can do so by buying up someone
who is already in that market; alternatively, once it has established a
foothold in a market it could buy up one or more of its competitors.

For example, Hewlett-Packard were a computer manufacturer; then they turned
into more of a computer peripherals manufacturer (face it, they're
best-known for their printers nowadays, not their computers); and started
making digital cameras because those are peripherals, too. From there,
they might buy up a traditional camera manufacturer who also has digital
cameras -- and that gets them into the chemical industry as well (because
they now own plants to make films and photographic supplies) and so on.

> OTOH, one thing I can easily see is a contracted out police force and
> other services.

The US already has company-run prisons, after all. However, in many other
countries, contracting these kinds of things out would be unthinkable --
here in the Netherlands, there are plenty of private security companies
guarding all sorts of things, but arming them is a very definite "no",
because the only security provider allowed to carry weapons is the
national police. Given the general level of paranoia concerning firearms
over here, I can't even imagine the law being changed to allow private
companies to arm their employees.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:23:54 -0200
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:41:50 -0800 (PST), Jan Jaap van Poelgeest
<jjvanp@*****.com> wrote:
> Dreamseekerr,
>
> I would suggest you try and work with shadowrun as it
> is currently published and find new and interesting
> ways to make it work the way you want.

I, on the other hand, say go ahead and mangle the published setting as
you like. And then post the results here :). Trying to stick to
published materials when you want to change the game world will result
in something that's anything but "new and interesting".


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 5
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:39:25 +0100
> According to Allura nee Gwendolyn nee Veren, on Wednesday 19 January 2005
> 22:39 the word on the street was...



>> On the political/social side, I was thinking of one interesting facet of
>> Shadowrun - contract labor. Now, I can easily see a scenerio like the
>> Shiawase decision, giving corps the right to use deadly force on their
>> property. But no labor laws? That's hard to believe in this country,

> Not just in yours.


Is it? Companys (for example Blackwater, the company whose employees
were burned in Irak :( http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ )already use deadly
weapons to not only to defend there property but also to get people
out of the way (the one (way) they are paid for).
Only because this doesn't happend in USA, Europe right now is no proof
that it can't happend in a few years.

Actually if it happends it won't be like Sr I guess, it will be more
like, armed privat air port security --> armed on site guards --->
....
International cons, already have budgets like small countries and they
have no social thinks for non-productiv members.
Where is the difference between General Electrics and Namibia, there
is one: GE is more powerfull.

mfg

X3K6A2
Message no. 6
From: failhelm@*****.com (Failhelm)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:14:16 -0800
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:39:14 -0500, Allura nee Gwendolyn nee Veren wrote:
> I was thinking today (yeah, scary thought...) - what would be different if
> Shadowrun was created today? Sure, cyber & magic, living together. Same
> base concept. But what if we project the tech & society aspects from today
> forward, instead?

I have actually strongly considered creating my own SR history. RPGs
in general that provide you with a created world are difficult for me
to use, because I'm such a detail nut. As odd as it sounds I think I
would rather create my own world, with my own history. I can also pace
technology on a level that makes more sense to me.

I know that I can do this already, but I have tried it, and I think
that re-making things in my own image is not only more in the spirit
of traditional rpgs, but would also be less work for me, in a odd
geeky kind of way.

> Would the megacorps be Japanese-oriented? Would companies even want to
> merge outside their industry? Yeah, we've got "giants" in each industry,
> but are they likely to merge so that one company makes cars, drugs, food,
> etc?

I have always felt that SR was created under an 80's attitude that all
corporations are bad and that the man is keeping us all down. Which is
fine and all, but I don't really want to maintain any political
statements in my games.

> OTOH, one thing I can easily see is a contracted out police force and other
> services. But man, would that be lawsuit city in the US.
>
> Here's another one - cyberware/decking. No data crash, but we still haven't
> quite accomplished them. We're getting there, though. Ok, just looked it up
> - ASIST came out in 2018 - we might beat it by a few years, but not by much,
> I think.

Being in the computer industry this is the part of SR I struggle with
the most. I would certainly do better to make things accordingly to my
own visage of how tech will grow and change, and to what degree,
magic, disease and war would hinder advancement.

> Obviously, magic showing up in 2011 would wreck havonc. Would it trigger a
> complete breakdown of the US?

I don't think that SR spent enough time on this, probably done on
purpose or covered in the novels. I have enough source material to
read to have to bother with novels as well, especially when people
argue over what is cannon and what is not.

> So, let's bring Shadowrun's tech/social base up to date. What would be
> different, what's the same? Discuss amongst yourselves <g>.

I would have to agree with others that brining SR up to date wouldn't
be worth the hassle. I would either make very minor adjustments or
don't bother.

> Joanna
> -who apparently doesn't have enough email to deal with...:)

doesn't count if its your hobby :)
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:32:24 +0100
According to X3K6A2, on Thursday 20 January 2005 15:39 the word on the
street was...

> Is it? Companys (for example Blackwater, the company whose employees
> were burned in Irak :( http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ )already use deadly
> weapons to not only to defend there property but also to get people
> out of the way (the one (way) they are paid for).
> Only because this doesn't happend in USA, Europe right now is no proof
> that it can't happend in a few years.

We were talking/thinking (or at least, I was) about North America and
Europe. In other parts of the world the situation may be different, but
can you really see a Europe in the near future without labor laws and
corporations having the right to use deadly force?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:23:08 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest

> I would suggest you try and work with shadowrun as it is
> currently published and find new and interesting ways to make
> it work the way you want. A discussion about the fundamental
> technological conception of the setting would probably lead
> to a different world altogether, much as the additions of new
> and exciting technologies and occurrences have in fact
> changed its appearance. Addition of a careful kind -not total
> revisionism- might be the key to garnering responses here.

I guess I'm looking at this from two points of view. One is "let's talk
about this just to talk about it" - we all love the world or system or we
wouldn't be on the list. The other PoV is "how do we fit things that have
changed since the game was created into it?" I don't want to go too far
from "canon", b/c I really like the world. It's an exercise for discussion,
as well as maybe some rules changes, particularly in gear costs/concealment.


Joanna
Message no. 9
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:54:02 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Gurth

> > In general, electronics today are much smaller then
> Shadowrun projected.
>
> Good example: the Conceal of mobile phones. Even SR3 shows
> the Conceal of a handset cellphone to be 3 (as it was in SR1
> and SRII), when even in 1998 when this was written/revised,
> cellphones were a lot smaller than Concealability 3 would indicate.

See, that's completely ridiculous. My primary character has a KATANA and
that's conceal 3! And she's not exactly the Highlander *wry*. Obviously,
it's a simple thing to change it. I'd call it more like 10 or 12 these
days. Maybe a bit lower if you have a bulky headset on. But, I can see
headsets going wireless - actually, I think there are already bluetooth
wireless headsets out there for certain phone models. A small piece hanging
over one ear, no wire, and a phone in your pocket - ok, I'll see you talking
to thin air and figure it out, but otherwise...I'm not so sure.


> > But no labor laws? That's hard to believe in this
> > country,
>
> Not just in yours.

Yeah, I was thinking that, particularly in the area of maximum hours allowed
to work, and time off, most European countries beat us. Although, one catch
in the US anyway, is that each state makes their own laws; the federal laws
are a bare minimum. I could see a corporation making a case for restraint
of trade due to varying laws.


> Isn't this because today, people tend to change jobs a lot in
> search of the maximum they can get out of their carreers?
> Whereas in the past (and this still applies to older people,
> at least around here) people usually worked their whole lives
> for the same boss. It could well be that by SR's time,
> attitudes have shifted back toward that.

Hmm...I'd hope to see that! There's a bad case of "younger employees are
cheaper," leaving older but more experienced employees out. I suppose that
loss of experience could begin to really hurt companies. There's been some
surveys lately that say that customers are more interested in customer
service then in price (for those who can afford to do so). That might be
something that would cause a shift back to staying with the same company.

>
> > Would the megacorps be Japanese-oriented? Would companies
> even want
> > to merge outside their industry?
> For example, Hewlett-Packard were a computer manufacturer;
> then they turned into more of a computer peripherals
> manufacturer (face it, they're best-known for their printers
> nowadays, not their computers); and started making digital
> cameras because those are peripherals, too. From there, they
> might buy up a traditional camera manufacturer who also has
> digital cameras -- and that gets them into the chemical
> industry as well (because they now own plants to make films
> and photographic supplies) and so on.

Ok, that makes sense.


> The US already has company-run prisons, after all. However,
> in many other countries, contracting these kinds of things
> out would be unthinkable -- here in the Netherlands, there
> are plenty of private security companies guarding all sorts
> of things, but arming them is a very definite "no", because
> the only security provider allowed to carry weapons is the
> national police. Given the general level of paranoia
> concerning firearms over here, I can't even imagine the law
> being changed to allow private companies to arm their employees.

Yes, we do have some company-run prisons. Also some states have private
motor vehicle services (both inspection and licensing and such), as well as
most of our utilities. I was about to say that the latter are services you
pay for, not ones provided by the government, but that's not always true, I
suppose. For instance, some towns provide garbage pickup, and some you have
to find your own contractor. Same for sewer. How do utilities such as
electric, gas, water, sewer, etc work in other countries? Is it part of
your taxes, or do you pay a separate fee, possibly based on usage?

As for arming private security, that's definitely more likely to happen
here, simply because we have plenty of private citizens who carry firearms.
Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about it. I went to
Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school. Admittedly, we did have some
cops at the school, but they all carried guns, iirc. I haven't actually
gone into a bank in awhile (online banking is the best!), but I'm pretty
sure bank guards carry. And, while I don't normally pay too much attention
to actors & the like, I'm pretty sure I've heard instances of their
bodyguards

So it could happen in the US, but Europe? I guess economic pressure could
do the trick, but I don't know.

Joanna
Message no. 10
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:06:45 -0700
On 20-Jan-05, at 3:26 AM, Gurth wrote:

> Good example: the Conceal of mobile phones. Even SR3 shows the Conceal
> of a
> handset cellphone to be 3 (as it was in SR1 and SRII), when even in
> 1998
> when this was written/revised, cellphones were a lot smaller than
> Concealability 3 would indicate.

Concealability for a lot of electronics gear was retooled in one of the
recent FanPro printings ... most of the cel phones and related gadgets
are in the 8-12 range, now.

Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 11
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:10:31 +0000
On Jan 21, 2005, at 00:54, Joanna Hurley wrote:

>> Good example: the Conceal of mobile phones. Even SR3 shows
>> the Conceal of a handset cellphone to be 3 (as it was in SR1
>> and SRII), when even in 1998 when this was written/revised,
>> cellphones were a lot smaller than Concealability 3 would indicate.
>
> See, that's completely ridiculous. My primary character has a KATANA
> and
> that's conceal 3! And she's not exactly the Highlander *wry*.
> Obviously,
> it's a simple thing to change it. I'd call it more like 10 or 12 these
> days. Maybe a bit lower if you have a bulky headset on. But, I can
> see
> headsets going wireless - actually, I think there are already bluetooth
> wireless headsets out there for certain phone models. A small piece
> hanging
> over one ear, no wire, and a phone in your pocket - ok, I'll see you
> talking
> to thin air and figure it out, but otherwise...I'm not so sure.

Actually, it *has* been corrected in the latest errata. Mobile phones
and pocket secretaries now have concealabilities of 8 (actually, they
even have in-ear cellphones with a concealability of 12).

Now I'm left wondering how the heck they can fit six 12-gauge
cartridges (not to mention a whole gun around them!) in a
concealability of 6, which is roughly the size of a big paperback book.
Yes, Roomsweeper, I'm looking at you.

> As for arming private security, that's definitely more likely to happen
> here, simply because we have plenty of private citizens who carry
> firearms.
> Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about it. I
> went to
> Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school. Admittedly, we did have
> some
> cops at the school, but they all carried guns, iirc. I haven't
> actually
> gone into a bank in awhile (online banking is the best!), but I'm
> pretty
> sure bank guards carry. And, while I don't normally pay too much
> attention
> to actors & the like, I'm pretty sure I've heard instances of their
> bodyguards
>
> So it could happen in the US, but Europe? I guess economic pressure
> could
> do the trick, but I don't know.

I don't think so... We've had strict gun control laws for as long as I
can remember (in France, you're not allowed to own a weapon that has a
magazine capable of holding more than 1 shot, a hunting license allows
you to own up to a double-barrelled shotgun, and no matter what, the
use of any weapon on actual people is highly frowned upon), and the
people strongly approve of them (especially in regard to what happens
in the USA -- no offense). Any change to these laws that would lower
restrictions would be very bad publicity for both the government that
makes them and the corporation(s) that pressure said government into
changing the laws.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 12
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:29:41 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Adam Jury

> Concealability for a lot of electronics gear was retooled in
> one of the recent FanPro printings ... most of the cel phones
> and related gadgets are in the 8-12 range, now.

Oh, geez, I was looking at the 5th printing one I have. I just pulled out
the 13th one, and I see the differences. I forgot we had that one (giving
us a grand total of THREE, including the spiffy hardcover 1st printing). We
picked it up to keep from trashing the hardcover one, but still allow two
copies at the table. Ok, I'll have to remember to keep an eye out.

I see that there's an errata on the website for the 13th printing. Is there
anything that has a comprehensive list of changes (I'm guessing that's a lot
of work...)?

Thanks!
Joanna
Message no. 13
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:32:46 +0000
On Jan 21, 2005, at 01:29, Joanna Hurley wrote:

> I see that there's an errata on the website for the 13th printing. Is
> there
> anything that has a comprehensive list of changes (I'm guessing that's
> a lot
> of work...)?

Everything that's highlighted in red. The single most important change
is that now, gel ammo is affected by impact armor, not ballistic.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 14
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:42:32 -0700
On 20-Jan-05, at 6:29 PM, Joanna Hurley wrote:

> Oh, geez, I was looking at the 5th printing one I have. I just pulled
> out
> the 13th one, and I see the differences. I forgot we had that one
> (giving
> us a grand total of THREE, including the spiffy hardcover 1st
> printing). We
> picked it up to keep from trashing the hardcover one, but still allow
> two
> copies at the table. Ok, I'll have to remember to keep an eye out.

I get confused, too, especially as I have an older FanPro printing
spiral bound, which is the most convenient to use ... but not the most
up to date.

> I see that there's an errata on the website for the 13th printing. Is
> there
> anything that has a comprehensive list of changes (I'm guessing that's
> a lot
> of work...)?

I actually have a newer copy of the errata here, for the 14th printing,
which is shipping to stores now. The errata will be online, uhh..
"soon", I think is the word I like to use ... there are a few other
higher priority projects on my plate right now, like getting the first
batch of Shadowrun books up on drivethrurpg.com

The errata is a list of comprehensive changes that affect rules or game
mechanics - there are a bunch of other changes, but they're boring,
like "this colon was changed to a semicolon."

Word,
Adam
Message no. 15
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:11:08 -0500
At 01:32 AM 1/21/2005 +0000, you wrote:

> Everything that's highlighted in red. The single most important change
>is that now, gel ammo is affected by impact armor, not ballistic.

Huh? It's always been affected by impact armor.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:06:13 +0100
According to Joanna Hurley, on Friday 21 January 2005 01:54 the word on the
street was...

> > Good example: the Conceal of mobile phones.
>
> See, that's completely ridiculous. My primary character has a KATANA
> and that's conceal 3!

That's also unchanged from SR1. So what the writers were saying is that
they felt a mobile phone was as difficult to hide as a sword -- which
makes sense given the mid-1980s battery-pack-with-phone-attachment, but
not for even early-1990s mobiles, which already were more the size of a
regular telephone receiver.

> Obviously, it's a simple thing to change it. I'd call it more like 10
> or 12 these days.

This reminds me of the episode of Coupling (not the US version) where
they're discussing Patrick's new mobile :) I get the impression, from
doing no research at all, that phones are getting _bigger_ again, because
they had gotten just a little too small a few years ago.

> Yeah, I was thinking that, particularly in the area of maximum hours
> allowed to work, and time off, most European countries beat us.

Normal working weeks here in the Netherlands are 38 hours.

> There's been some surveys lately that say that customers are more
> interested in customer service then in price (for those who can afford
> to do so).

That is not something many European companies have figured out...

> How do utilities such as electric, gas, water, sewer, etc work in other
> countries? Is it part of your taxes, or do you pay a separate fee,
> possibly based on usage?

It's kind of a combination: in this country you pay what are called
"sanitation rights" to your local government, who use that money to
contract out garbage collection, sewer works, etc. to companies. This is a
fixed fee, so even if you never throw anything away you still pay the same
as your neighbor who puts heaps of trash onto the sidewalk every
collection day.

Utilities are also provided by private companies (though the dfference is
that these all were once government-owned and were privatized over the
past 15-20 years or so) but in this case you pay the companies directly.
Since this year you can choose which company to do business with, whereas
before that you were forced to deal with the one (not "ones") that
operated in your area. The way they work is kind of odd, though: you pay
them in advance based on an estimate of your annual usage, and then get an
additional bill if you used more (or a return if you used less).

> As for arming private security, that's definitely more likely to happen
> here, simply because we have plenty of private citizens who carry
> firearms.

Which, too, is unheard-of here. The only armed people around will be either
police, or criminals (they're criminals by definition because carrying a
firearm around is a crime, except under very particular circumstances --
such as when you're on your way to an authorized shooting event).

> Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about
> it. I went to Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school. Admittedly,
> we did have some cops at the school

You say that as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:07:11 +0100
According to Adam Jury, on Friday 21 January 2005 02:06 the word on the
street was...

> Concealability for a lot of electronics gear was retooled in one of the
> recent FanPro printings ... most of the cel phones and related gadgets
> are in the 8-12 range, now.

I need to get me a new copy of the main rules sometime, I'm still using a
second printing I bought in '98 :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: allen.versfeld@*****.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:18:04 +0200
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:06:13 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Joanna Hurley, on Friday 21 January 2005 01:54 the word on the
> street was...
>

[snip]

> > As for arming private security, that's definitely more likely to happen
> > here, simply because we have plenty of private citizens who carry
> > firearms.
>
> Which, too, is unheard-of here. The only armed people around will be either
> police, or criminals (they're criminals by definition because carrying a
> firearm around is a crime, except under very particular circumstances --
> such as when you're on your way to an authorized shooting event).
>
> > Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about
> > it. I went to Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school. Admittedly,
> > we did have some cops at the school
>
> You say that as if it's the most normal thing in the world.
>

Wow, I'm starting to feel positively paranoid... It's not uncommon in
South Africa these days to have the rent-a-cops in some of the
classier shopping malls dressed in a distinctly military fashion,
toting R4 assault rifles...
Message no. 19
From: pentaj2@********.edu (John C. Penta)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:13:37 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Versfeld <allen.versfeld@*****.com>
Date: Friday, January 21, 2005 7:18 am
Subject: Re: And So It Came To Pass...

> Wow, I'm starting to feel positively paranoid... It's not uncommon in
> South Africa these days to have the rent-a-cops in some of the
> classier shopping malls dressed in a distinctly military fashion,
> toting R4 assault rifles...

Yes, but ZA has a nearly war-like crime rate, doesn't it?

It's the place that invented the flamethrowing anti-car-theft system.
Message no. 20
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:38:02 -0800
> Concealability for a lot of electronics gear was retooled in one of the
> recent FanPro printings ... most of the cel phones and related gadgets
> are in the 8-12 range, now.
>
> Adam

Are these recorded in an errata list?
--Anders
Message no. 21
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:47:11 +0000
On Jan 21, 2005, at 16:38, Anders Swenson wrote:

> Are these recorded in an errata list?
> --Anders

Yup, in the latest SR3 errata at http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 22
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:20:16 -0800 (PST)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to X3K6A2, on Thursday 20 January 2005 15:39 the word on
> the
> street was...
>
> > Is it? Companys (for example Blackwater, the company whose
> employees
> > were burned in Irak :( http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ )already use
> deadly
> > weapons to not only to defend there property but also to get
> people
> > out of the way (the one (way) they are paid for).
> > Only because this doesn't happend in USA, Europe right now is no
> proof
> > that it can't happend in a few years.
>
> We were talking/thinking (or at least, I was) about North America
> and
> Europe. In other parts of the world the situation may be different,
> but
> can you really see a Europe in the near future without labor laws
> and
> corporations having the right to use deadly force?

Not without an almost complete social breakdown. I mean, it would
take disease, war, mass panic, social unrest at all levels
(neighboring houses to neighboring nations). It would take a
collapse of currency systems, loss of proprietary records, failure of
all existing judicial and muninciple systems to bring any respite for
a protracted period of time. It would take...

oh, I don't know...

a global computer crash, people suddenly casting spells and turning
into alien humanoids, a few passes of an immuno-defficiency pandemic,
dizzying changes in the balance of politics and wealth on a global
scale, riots that spanned entire cities for days on end, the sudden
appearance of mythical monsters on international television...

wait. I think I read all this somewhere. ;)

======Korishinzo
--...and so it came to pass.



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Message no. 23
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:37:46 -0800 (PST)
--- Joanna Hurley <allura@***********.org> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> > [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
> > Jan Jaap van Poelgeest
>
> > I would suggest you try and work with shadowrun as it is
> > currently published and find new and interesting ways to make
> > it work the way you want. A discussion about the fundamental
> > technological conception of the setting would probably lead
> > to a different world altogether, much as the additions of new
> > and exciting technologies and occurrences have in fact
> > changed its appearance. Addition of a careful kind -not total
> > revisionism- might be the key to garnering responses here.
>
> I guess I'm looking at this from two points of view. One is "let's
> talk
> about this just to talk about it" - we all love the world or system
> or we
> wouldn't be on the list. The other PoV is "how do we fit things
> that have
> changed since the game was created into it?" I don't want to go
> too far
> from "canon", b/c I really like the world. It's an exercise for
> discussion,
> as well as maybe some rules changes, particularly in gear
> costs/concealment.

IMO, the biggest area where SR breaks down is in terms of the
size/weight/etc of tools, electronics, and the like. This is easy to
change. Simply adjust the concealability ratings, weight, etc of
things that don't make sense. The social (politics, economics,
etc)structure of SR is part of its core genre. It would be
problematic to change it radically. Nor is there any reason to. The
near collapse of all global infrastructure, over the course of three
decades, by successive degrees, is a powerful caveat to explain why
things don't progress logically along social development norms from
2005 to 2060. It would be stranger, in fact, if the world had
progressed normally under the pressures it endured. I make
electronics smaller and nighter than the book usually indicates. I
make memory capacity rather independant of device size. I run
networking and coding a bit more loosely than the book, and adapt my
rulings to what I know of how such things work. I adjust politcal
and economic situations as needed to seem more plausible. All
without rewriting anything, or changing the core world. However, it
sounds like you would actually enjoy the tedium of a new simulation
using 2005 as a starting point instead of the mid-80s, mapping from
current geo-political, economic, and technological norms. I just
think that most of us would be less enthusiastic. By the time a week
of school, work, and everything else is behind me, I hit my Saturday
gaming table with maybe an hour of prep time, max. I prefer to do
any world-editing on the fly. :)

======Korishinzo
--I'll read anything posted though. *grin*



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Message no. 24
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:13:54 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Gurth

> This reminds me of the episode of Coupling (not the US
> version) where they're discussing Patrick's new mobile :) I
> get the impression, from doing no research at all, that
> phones are getting _bigger_ again, because they had gotten
> just a little too small a few years ago.

I'd believe that. My mother's 2 year old (or so) phone is actually smaller
then my 6mth old one. Also, now that they can make a plain phone really
small, people want fancy features that make them larger, such as cameras,
bright screens with shiny graphics, good speaker phones, etc.


> Normal working weeks here in the Netherlands are 38 hours.

It's 40hrs in the US, but there's nothing really stopping you from working
longer. Most employees have to be compensated if you work more then 40
hours, either in pay or time off, but there's a lot of categories of
employee that don't have to be...or just aren't. Look at Electronic Arts
(EA) for an example of that.


> > There's been some surveys lately that say that customers are more
> > interested in customer service then in price (for those who
> can afford
> > to do so).
>
> That is not something many European companies have figured out...

Neither have a lot of US companies. But there's some that are making it the
cornerstone of their business. "Fancy" grocery stores are popping up, for
instance. They're bright, clean, have a lot of good quality store made hot
food, fancy bakeries, etc. Or Target vs Walmart is another example.
Walmart is CHEAP, but usually within 6 mths of opening they're pretty scary
looking. Target is slightly more expensive, but the store's are a more
pleasant environment, imho.



> > How do utilities such as electric, gas, water, sewer, etc work in
> > other countries? Is it part of your taxes, or do you pay a
> separate
> > fee, possibly based on usage?
>
> It's kind of a combination: in this country you pay what are
> called "sanitation rights" to your local government, who use
> that money to contract out garbage collection, sewer works,
> etc. to companies. This is a fixed fee, so even if you never
> throw anything away you still pay the same as your neighbor
> who puts heaps of trash onto the sidewalk every collection day.
>
> Utilities are also provided by private companies (though the
> dfference is that these all were once government-owned and
> were privatized over the past 15-20 years or so) but in this
> case you pay the companies directly.
> Since this year you can choose which company to do business
> with, whereas before that you were forced to deal with the
> one (not "ones") that operated in your area. The way they
> work is kind of odd, though: you pay them in advance based on
> an estimate of your annual usage, and then get an additional
> bill if you used more (or a return if you used less).

Yeah, that sounds like the progression we've had for utilities, too. I can
pick my phone company and electric producer but not provider, for instance.
But there's only one natural gas company.

The payment style you're talking about is one that's optional for some of
our utilities. It's a way to keep your bill from spiking during a high
usage period. I guess they decided it was easier to just put everyone on
one plan then to have two different types.


> > As for arming private security, that's definitely more likely to
> > happen here, simply because we have plenty of private citizens who
> > carry firearms.
>
> Which, too, is unheard-of here. The only armed people around
> will be either police, or criminals (they're criminals by
> definition because carrying a firearm around is a crime,
> except under very particular circumstances -- such as when
> you're on your way to an authorized shooting event).

Again, it's a state-by-state issue. Some states you can randomly carry a
gun around, some you have to have a reason (like hunting). OTOH, it's not
like even within a "concealed carry" state EVERYONE carries a gun. My
family thinks it's horrid that my husband's family thinks it's normal. :)
We don't own one, but that's mostly due to finances, etc. It's fairly low
priority, since it would mostly just be for target shooting. And, I'd have
to learn to shoot first; personal preference, but I won't have one in the
house if I don't know how to use it. Which is probably why SR is one of the
few games I PREFER magical characters - I don't know what I'm doing with a
gun, so I feel stupid describing it in game! :) OTOH, I do know how to
shoot a bow & use a sword (fencing in college), so I'm set for fantasy
games.


> > Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about it. I
> > went to Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school.
> Admittedly, we
> > did have some cops at the school
>
> You say that as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

Well, it's routine that security on public college campuses is performed by
state police (we have local, county, and state police, although no real
federal unless you count DC park police). It is a bit unusual for a private
college; I think we got the overflow from the city the school was in. The
school & city worked pretty closely together.

And yet, I think seeing police with anything larger then a pistol (like in a
lot of overseas airports...and ours, now), is still weird. That's a HUGE
change (since 9/11) in this country, to regularly see cops patrolling
carrying SMGs and such.

Joanna
Message no. 25
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:19:02 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
> Allen Versfeld

> Wow, I'm starting to feel positively paranoid... It's not
> uncommon in South Africa these days to have the rent-a-cops
> in some of the classier shopping malls dressed in a
> distinctly military fashion, toting R4 assault rifles...

See, that would bug me. I'm used to seeing pistols, but assault rifles
feels like a whole different category.

Ok, so they are in SR, but you know what I mean! :)

Joanna
Message no. 26
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:49:54 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Ice Heart

> It would take...
>
> oh, I don't know...
>
> a global computer crash, people suddenly casting spells and
> turning into alien humanoids, a few passes of an
> immuno-defficiency pandemic, dizzying changes in the balance
> of politics and wealth on a global scale, riots that spanned
> entire cities for days on end, the sudden appearance of
> mythical monsters on international television...
>
> wait. I think I read all this somewhere. ;)

Oh, meh! :) Yeah, I guess you're right. Enough drek happens to really
mess up life.

You know, I always think that while this is a great world to game in, I
don't think I'd like to live in it. Well, not as ME anyway. MAYBE as one
of my characters...the luckier ones. :)

Joanna
Message no. 27
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:35:44 -0500
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:49:54 -0500, Joanna Hurley
<allura@***********.org> wrote:
>
> Oh, meh! :) Yeah, I guess you're right. Enough drek happens to really
> mess up life.
>
> You know, I always think that while this is a great world to game in, I
> don't think I'd like to live in it. Well, not as ME anyway. MAYBE as one
> of my characters...the luckier ones. :)

Heh. When I was in college, we decided to do a 'low-powered' campaign
in Chicago, around the same time the Bugs came out... and we decided
to use ourselves (or ourselves as we figured we might be with magic
and cyberware - one was an elf, another a physad, some of us had
datajacks and such, etc).

... I think we lasted about 40 minutes lol

... Well, that's when the last one died, at least. Chris lasted about
40 *seconds* LOL (He was speeding while delivering a pizza, and when
a giant bug jumped on his car's hood, he ended up going through a
brick wall and failed his crash test, badly...)

I think I'd like to live in the decade between the return of magic,
and goblinization. That could be fun. The two-three years
immediately before it, however, I could happily skip LOL

Kevin
Message no. 28
From: allen.versfeld@*****.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 03:45:13 +0200
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:13:37 -0500, John C. Penta <pentaj2@********.edu> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Allen Versfeld <allen.versfeld@*****.com>
> Date: Friday, January 21, 2005 7:18 am
> Subject: Re: And So It Came To Pass...
>
> > Wow, I'm starting to feel positively paranoid... It's not uncommon in
> > South Africa these days to have the rent-a-cops in some of the
> > classier shopping malls dressed in a distinctly military fashion,
> > toting R4 assault rifles...
>
> Yes, but ZA has a nearly war-like crime rate, doesn't it?
>
> It's the place that invented the flamethrowing anti-car-theft system.
>
>

The very same :) (National pride requires me to argue that it's not
THAT bad) Horribly illegal, of course, one of many systems that never
made it to market because the insurance companies weren't interested
in paying for injured innocent bystanders.

So there's a thought... Would a big corp instruct it's security to
open fire on ordinary citizens , or would it do a cost benefit
analysis paying special consideration to the lawsuits from surviving
family members and PR damage?
Message no. 29
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:52:08 +0000
On Jan 22, 2005, at 01:45, Allen Versfeld wrote:

> So there's a thought... Would a big corp instruct it's security to
> open fire on ordinary citizens , or would it do a cost benefit
> analysis paying special consideration to the lawsuits from surviving
> family members and PR damage?

If it's a dumb corp, option #1. If it's a smart corp, option #2 (this
sounds like the Narrator's company in "Fight Club" :D ). If it's an AAA
corp, the analysis has been done a looooong time ago.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 30
From: jcotton1@*********.net (jcotton1@*********.net)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 0:26:50 -0500
>
> From: "Joanna Hurley" <allura@***********.org>
> Date: 2005/01/21 Fri PM 04:13:54 EST
>
> Again, it's a state-by-state issue. Some states you can randomly carry a
> gun around, some you have to have a reason (like hunting). OTOH, it's not
> like even within a "concealed carry" state EVERYONE carries a gun.

Just to give an idea of how it is in one state, here in North Carolina we have a
population of approximately 8.5 million. I don't have an actual count of the number of
concealed pistol permits we have issued, but based on the size of the list I print out
once a month, I'd guess it's at least 10,000 but no more than 20,000. (100 counties, an
average of 2 or 3 pages per county, about 40 names per page...) I'd like to give you guys
a more precise number than that, but I can't find that particular stat anywhere handy just
now.

> > You say that as if it's the most normal thing in the world.
>
> Well, it's routine that security on public college campuses is performed by
> state police (we have local, county, and state police, although no real
> federal unless you count DC park police).

Hmmm... Most of the larger schools here (NC) have their own campus police force, separate
from the city/county police and with their own jurisdictions. The smaller schools either
make use of off-duty county sheriff's deputies or local PD; or hire private security
firms.

Joe Cotton

Joseph M. Cotton jcotton1@*********.net

Random novel quote #63
"IS THERE ONE HUMAN ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO KNOWS WHAT DUTY
<i>MEANS</i>?"
Correctly identify the quote and win a US 50-cent piece!
Only $4.99 shipping and handling to claim your prize.
Hail Eris!
Message no. 31
From: silvercat@***********.org (Ian Argent)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:11:35 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Sent: 1/21/05 5:09:21 AM
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Subject: Re: And So It Came To Pass...

According to Joanna Hurley, on Friday 21 January 2005 01:54 the word
on the
street was...
> Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about
> it. I went to Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school.
Admittedly,
> we did have some cops at the school

You say that as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

----- Reply Separator -----

Speaks the husband via his "pocket secretary"...

Well, at the time we started college, security was mostly rent-a-cops,
and they didn't carry. As time went on, more of security personnel ended
up being "real" police (mostly from Hoboken PD), though the XO was a
state trooper. I suspect this had to do with legalities; a cop has the
full panoply of legal powers,
while private security has a smaller set, even on private property. At
the same time, the campus became more accessible to the public. Also,
Hoboken might not be Newark, but it is still an urban area.

Ian Argent
Message no. 32
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:30:33 +0100
According to Joanna Hurley, on Friday 21 January 2005 22:13 the word on the
street was...

> Well, it's routine that security on public college campuses is performed
> by state police

Even the idea of police/other security people on school grounds sounds odd
to me... There's simply no need for it here.

> And yet, I think seeing police with anything larger then a pistol (like
> in a lot of overseas airports...and ours, now), is still weird.

You only see them with heavier weapons if something is up, although I do
remember seeing a Dutch military policeman carrying an MP-5 SMG on an
apparently regular patrol in an airport in '98 or '99.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 08:01:37 -0800 (PST)
> remember seeing a Dutch military policeman carrying
> an MP-5 SMG on an
> apparently regular patrol in an airport in '98 or
> '99.

I had a similar experience when catching a flight the
other day. Thought it was overkill, not to mention
stupid: if (suicidal) terrorists gang up on a heavily
armed policeman they could take his weapon & render
him harmless, thus saving them the trouble of
transporting the arms to the location & being
unincriminable until the very last moment.

Incidentally, has anyone ever had this happen in their
SR campaigns? The runners going in more or less
unarmed with the intent of procuring their weapons
once on the inside, as they're bound to be there.

Cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 34
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:10:05 +0100
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on Saturday 22 January 2005 17:01 the
word on the street was...

> I had a similar experience when catching a flight the
> other day. Thought it was overkill, not to mention
> stupid: if (suicidal) terrorists gang up on a heavily
> armed policeman they could take his weapon & render
> him harmless, thus saving them the trouble of
> transporting the arms to the location & being
> unincriminable until the very last moment.

Possibly, but I don't see this as being a very likely thing -- they might
as well drive a car into a crowd, I think, which is less likely to go
wrong than getting a weapon from a police officer is.

> Incidentally, has anyone ever had this happen in their
> SR campaigns? The runners going in more or less
> unarmed with the intent of procuring their weapons
> once on the inside, as they're bound to be there.

Not in my campaign; I think my players prefer to have these sorts of things
sorted out beforehand, rather than relying on things that may go wrong.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:09:56 -0500
On Jan 20, 2005, at 19:54, Joanna Hurley wrote:
>
> Yes, we do have some company-run prisons. Also some states have
> private
> motor vehicle services (both inspection and licensing and such), as
> well as
> most of our utilities. I was about to say that the latter are
> services you
> pay for, not ones provided by the government, but that's not always
> true, I
> suppose. For instance, some towns provide garbage pickup, and some
> you have
> to find your own contractor. Same for sewer. How do utilities such as
> electric, gas, water, sewer, etc work in other countries? Is it part
> of
> your taxes, or do you pay a separate fee, possibly based on usage?
>
I pay for electricity based on usage. However, there is a base fee
for having electricity installed -- even if you use none. Water based
on volume. This is just like the U.S. However, my garbage is part of
my parish's taxes. It does not matter if I put out nothing or tons, it
is based on the fact that I live in the parish.

> As for arming private security, that's definitely more likely to happen
> here, simply because we have plenty of private citizens who carry
> firearms.
> Actually, I think it already has now that I'm thinking about it. I
> went to
> Stevens Inst of Technology, a private school.

Woohoo! Hoboken!

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 36
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: And So It Came To Pass...
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:10:03 -0500
On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:13, John C. Penta wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Allen Versfeld <allen.versfeld@*****.com>
> Date: Friday, January 21, 2005 7:18 am
> Subject: Re: And So It Came To Pass...
>
>> Wow, I'm starting to feel positively paranoid... It's not uncommon in
>> South Africa these days to have the rent-a-cops in some of the
>> classier shopping malls dressed in a distinctly military fashion,
>> toting R4 assault rifles...
>
> Yes, but ZA has a nearly war-like crime rate, doesn't it?
>
> It's the place that invented the flamethrowing anti-car-theft system.
>
>
I noticed that there were a large number of signs posted on places in
South Africa that indicated the security company would provide an armed
response. This is a picture I took a little south of Cape Town in Feb
2002:

http://www.mithrandir.com/SouthAfrica/Pages/Image218.html?

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

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