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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:35:19 EST
In a message dated 97-12-31 16:56:06 EST, mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM writes:

> > Matt, you need help.
>
> I wonder about you and all these personal attacks: are you having a good
> day?

I am sorry to get so sardonic on ya guy...but there is a severe point of
inflexibility that is being approached upon. The principle reason that I am
putting forth ALL of this energy on the subject is because of the development
of SR3. I guess you could say I am "arguing on behalf of the flexible
view"...

I -DO- apologize for making things so personal....and actually, things are not
so bad at work, they are just -there-.....(shrug)

> > What I am effectively asking about is what happens when
> > the Physical Adept attacks the Barrier put forward by the individual in
> > question. In normal circumstances, I know what happens were it a normal
> > spell. In this case, it is not. It's a Magical Edge.
>
> > And besides, "Psychokinesis" in this case is a variation on the words
"
> Magic
> > Fingers" (geesh, that was a no brainer....).
>
> So? There are Edges that come very close to duplicating mage spells,
> and Edges that only resemble them by way of intended function and not
> the mechanics; presumably, you'd though of this before incorporating a
> homebrew Edge of your own. Without giving the rules for using the Edge,
> you can't really expect a response. It sounds as if you were just
> looking for people to come forward and say, "Treat it like a spell!" for
> you. Why, I do not know.

In a way, I was looking for that. I am the kind of person that like's to test
how people respond, to get a feel for things and see what is out there...by
leaving the "idea door" wide open as I did, even if it meant "baiting"
people
into a heated discussion, I was also trying to find the limits of the negative
as well as the positive. I do this inately now...it's an OLD habit...

As for the Edge "Psychokinesis", it is principly Magic Fingers, but treated
more like the "paranormal power" instead of the spell. Made it a "5
point"
Edge, instead of 4. Took a bit to earn it here (we still would like some FASA
rulings on how you actually "buy" or "develop" edges after character
creation
btw). Looked for some flexibility and yet kept the drain and sustaining
tests/modifiers in order to retain the balance as well.

It's also a leftover from the "anchored magic fingers" that Binder once had...

> You apparently want to treat it as a Barrier, so (d'oh) it gets treated
> like a barrier. That being said, the only thing lacking is the basis
> for the Force of
> the Barrier; I see it as a toss-up between the user's Magic attribute or
> Essence (if you allow magical edges to edges -- FASA Companion rules
> rather than the original Steve Kenson rules) and the user's Willpower.

From the beginning of game mechanics, I agree with you here...the "Willpower"
I am not certain of where you are coming from though...are you referring to
the "Willpower" mentioning in "Clout" for Telekinetic Manipulations?

> So, the physad attacks, and either breaks the Barrier or he doesn't;
> using normal Magic Barrier rules, the barrier would spring back to full
> strength at Initiative Phase 0.. one of the reasons I wouldn't allow
> this Edge, or this usage of Magic Fingers.
> -Mb

It would do so -if- it wasn't constantly antagonized by an outside force of
some type, yes. What I am still looking for the connection between the "edge"
(an inherent type of magic instead of a spell) and the "subconscious
relationship with magic". Steve K. has, IMHO, stepped back into this arena.
-K
Message no. 2
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:11:28 -0500
At 09:35 PM 12/31/97 EST, you wrote:
>I am sorry to get so sardonic on ya guy...but there is a severe point of
>inflexibility that is being approached upon. The principle reason that I am
>putting forth ALL of this energy on the subject is because of the development
>of SR3. I guess you could say I am "arguing on behalf of the flexible
>view"...

>In a way, I was looking for that. I am the kind of person that like's to
test
>how people respond, to get a feel for things and see what is out there...by
>leaving the "idea door" wide open as I did, even if it meant
"baiting" people
>into a heated discussion, I was also trying to find the limits of the
negative
>as well as the positive. I do this inately now...it's an OLD habit...

Getting baited gets a mite annoying after a while. I find it far more
pleasant for people to get at what they're getting at and get on with it
than for them to make cute illustrative 'points' by stirring up controversy.

>As for the Edge "Psychokinesis", it is principly Magic Fingers, but treated
>more like the "paranormal power" instead of the spell. Made it a "5
point"
>Edge, instead of 4. Took a bit to earn it here (we still would like some
FASA
>rulings on how you actually "buy" or "develop" edges after
character creation
>btw).

Yeah, this should've been explained a bit if they were going to introduce
them, but onfortunately that section of the Companion was not very
complete. GMs are left to their own devices in deciding what they really are.

Looked for some flexibility and yet kept the drain and sustaining
>tests/modifiers in order to retain the balance as well.
>
>It's also a leftover from the "anchored magic fingers" that Binder once
had...

I see those edges as basically a very slimmed-down sort of Sorcery ability,
perhaps what people develop on their way to being able to cast other
spells. I don't really see it characterized as a 'natural power' along the
lines of awakened critters, since this makes them start to sound like
mutant powers out of Marvel comics, and that doesn't fit in with SR to me.

>It would do so -if- it wasn't constantly antagonized by an outside force of
>some type, yes. What I am still looking for the connection between the
"edge"
>(an inherent type of magic instead of a spell) and the "subconscious
>relationship with magic". Steve K. has, IMHO, stepped back into this arena.

Hm. Why do you see magical 'edge' abilities as more of an inherent type of
magic? Just wondering.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:16:44 EST
In a message dated 97-12-31 23:15:45 EST, losthalo@********.COM writes:

> Hm. Why do you see magical 'edge' abilities as more of an inherent type of
> magic? Just wondering.
>
Because as per the SRComp, they do not require training, study, development or
even contact with a Totemi-type force to suddenly "exist." They simply are
there, at least from the point of view of game mechanics (shrug). At least
those that are "there" at the time of character creation anyway. I think it
would be a good way of describing "Wild Talents" in the SR POV.

They are closely associated with the individual's own Essence (Magic)
attribute, and their function is directly associated with that attribute.
Their "Force" is derived from such directly, instead of the expenditure of
karma in a direct manner (as in spells).

To me at least, this is "inherent", or "raw" talent, more or less.
Message no. 4
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 06:20:03 EST
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 06:20:03 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-31 23:15:50 EST, you write:

> >It would do so -if- it wasn't constantly antagonized by an outside force of
> >some type, yes. What I am still looking for the connection between the
> "edge"
> >(an inherent type of magic instead of a spell) and the "subconscious
> >relationship with magic". Steve K. has, IMHO, stepped back into this
arena.
>
>
> Hm. Why do you see magical 'edge' abilities as more of an inherent type of
> magic? Just wondering.

Because the Magical Edge magic is based off of the person's Magic Attribute
plus foci minus -1 ... not
Message no. 5
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:46:59 -0800
Bull wrote:

> >> Could make for an interesting "Cult of the Comet" magical
group...:]
> >
> >Or a Comet Totem.

> Hehe...:]

Lessee (gotta make it munchkin as all get-out)

+1d to all spells cast at night or around an observatory. An
*additional* +4d to all magic tests every 76 years...

Actually, it reminds me of a line in the Grimoire (I think) about
certain ultrapowerful magic items or spell formulae only working when
the stars are in a particular configuration and so on.

Here's an interesting scenario:

A horkin' huge comet is heading straight toward the Earth! Big thing,
several dozen kilometers in diameter, looks to be the next dinosaur
extincter. Scientists are all abuzz with the opportunity to study it
(and suggest means of deflecting it), doomsday cults are in full
flourish, planetwide panic, the works. Within days of discovering it,
the United Nations (or the joint Tirs!) send up a rocket with a probe
and several nuclear warheads on it.

The probe meets the comet half a solar system out and matches its
inbound course. The plan is that while computations are made to shift
its course, it can be studied a little. Preliminary data sent back to
Earth suggests that the "dirty snowball" is actually infested with
microbes, apparently from Way Out There.

More excitement! Suddenly it's not a good idea to blow it up; rather,
if we could just tap it a little, park it in orbit...

The decision is made to have the probe examine the comet a second time,
to make certain the microbes are actually present. Only on it's
approach vector it gets tagged by a jet stream of evaporating gases and
suddenly it's not a well satellite; it's main satdish is fried, it's not
certain the backup works.

The comet continues to race inward toward Earth.

Finally, contact is made with the probe again. It's within the orbit of
the moon now. The signal is sent to detonate the nukes. (Kerplooie!)

The comet grazes the atmosphere of the Earth.

1) Are there enough microbes present to constitute a biosphere? (That
is, is the comet magically active?)

2) Is the "graze" close enough or long enough to let a mage project
from the Earth to the comet?

3) Is is long enough for something to hop *off* the comet? :)


-Mb
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:46:59 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Response)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ereskanti wrote:

> I am sorry to get so sardonic on ya guy...but there is a severe point of
> inflexibility that is being approached upon. The principle reason that I am
> putting forth ALL of this energy on the subject is because of the development
> of SR3. I guess you could say I am "arguing on behalf of the flexible
> view"...

Some inflexibilities are inherent to any internally consistent system.
You can't, for example, be both an Elf and an Ork; you can't be both
mundane and magically active, and so on. As I've expressed elsewhere, I
find the effort to overcome an obstacle and remain within boundaries a
more praiseworthy effort than deciding to rewrite rules that get in the
way. Once you decide what an aura is (and I feel it's pretty clear what
it is in SR), there are going to be limits that accompany it. That's
not a flaw of the system, simply a parameter. (Neither, to act
defensive, is it being negative to say that something doesn't work
within the system if it can't work that way.)

Designing a system to remain ultimately flexible generally tends to
create more flaws than strong points.

> > > And besides, "Psychokinesis" in this case is a variation on the
words "
> > > Magic Fingers" (geesh, that was a no brainer....).

> > So? There are Edges that come very close to duplicating mage spells,
> > and Edges that only resemble them by way of intended function and not
> > the mechanics; presumably, you'd thought of this before incorporating a
> > homebrew Edge of your own. Without giving the rules for using the Edge,
> > you can't really expect a response. It sounds as if you were just
> > looking for people to come forward and say, "Treat it like a spell!"
for
> > you. Why, I do not know.

> In a way, I was looking for that. I am the kind of person that like's to test
> how people respond, to get a feel for things and see what is out there...by
> leaving the "idea door" wide open as I did, even if it meant
"baiting" people
> into a heated discussion, I was also trying to find the limits of the negative
> as well as the positive. I do this inately now...it's an OLD habit...

Great. You wanted a heated argument. This sounds rather like an elfman
trick.

> As for the Edge "Psychokinesis", it is principly Magic Fingers, but treated
> more like the "paranormal power" instead of the spell. Made it a "5
point"
> Edge, instead of 4. Took a bit to earn it here (we still would like some FASA
> rulings on how you actually "buy" or "develop" edges after
character creation
> btw). Looked for some flexibility and yet kept the drain and sustaining
> tests/modifiers in order to retain the balance as well.

Uh-huh. Any/all of this information would've helped vastly in answering
your question, and yet.. where was it?

Instead of designing a new edge, it would've been easier to simply use
the magical "single-spell casting" edge (force = Magic attribute -1,
etc). The Spellcasting edge is probably the most flexible edge, and
should handle most of the special cases.

Some minimal rules appear in the Companion (p. 22). I really can't
imagine anything more coherent being produced, as edges/flaws are going
to range considerably in intent. As far as purchasing them after
character creation, it seems
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:22:35 EST
It is a solution but you'll have to know how many dices where used for each
action... :(
I allow the pool to refresh at each scene. When the characters aren't in a
run, the scene lasts the entire time between the runs. If it is during a
run, the scene stops at the end of each fight (approximatelly :). If the
mage casts the spell in a lock during a down time, the pool won't refresh
before the end of the scene. And there's a good chance that this end is the
end of a fight. My players know that fights can be very deadly and prefer
to keep their karma pool... :P


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:11:40 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: Bull - in - the - box
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> By now, I'm sure most of you know about the curse of Wendigoism that I have
> placed on our good friend Bull.
> After months of research, Bull has finally embarked upon a cure.

Hehehe. It took Odysseus ten years to finally make it back home after
the Trojan War...

> I'll spare the details, but it basically comes down to this.
> Bull wants to upload his brain to online storage - essentially place his
> mind inside a computer.

There're some really good science fiction novels on how to make a
computer personality 'work'. I'd probably recommend ME by Thomas T.
Thomas (no problem remembering *that* name) as the pick of the litter.
I'll leave the details to you, but consider -- does a 'true digerati'
have an aura?

> Now being the fun-loving, good-natured GM that I am (Stop snickering!) I
> have generously allowed this action.
> My question now is this ... how many MP's is a metahuman brain gonna need
> for storage space?

Umm, heckuva lot. Gurth gave the figure for a full-x sampled
experience, which I think should be larger (since there's more to the
personality than just memories -- gotta make those emotions roll!) You
might have too-industrious scientists willing to cut out, say, some of
the automatic functions of the brain -- no need to send signals out to
the spleen when it no longer exists, right? And, hey, if/when the Ork
gets a new body, we can whip up the new code.. really, we can! (We
can build him better.. faster.. :)

That being said, I think a real-life figure was once given for something
in the order of petabytes (lots more than lots more than gigabytes), but
obviously there's no sure figure.

> I'm at a complete loss for just how much room Bull's gonna need to store
> himself in an ACTIVE state.
> Also, in your collective opinions, could you "zip" a brain?

Well, yeah.. the brain would be effectively suspended, since zips re
archive files, but sure.

> Would it be easier/safer for Bull to simply place his meat brain on life
> support and the do a direct transfer?

SR tech seems able to handle brain connections pretty well -- if you can
build an entire new synapse network correctly, or squeeze in Wired-2 and
make all the connections work, you should be able to do a brain
transplant. Just find a suitable body, er, victim.

Now about that aura.. won't it get really phracked up in the process,
too?



-Mb
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:22:35 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-01 23:20:18 EST, mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM writes:

> Some inflexibilities are inherent to any internally consistent system.
> You can't, for example, be both an Elf and an Ork; you can't be both
> mundane and magically active, and so on. As I've expressed elsewhere, I
> find the effort to overcome an obstacle and remain within boundaries a
> more praiseworthy effort than deciding to rewrite rules that get in the
> way. Once you decide what an aura is (and I feel it's pretty clear what
> it is in SR), there

Then you stand in a very small group Matt. Even Steve agreed in barely a week
ago's time, that aura is one of the most controversial topics in SR's magic
system. I get the feeling that -you- never knew what Aura is, and therefore
any definition makes something clearer than it is.

> are going to be limits that accompany it. That's
> not a flaw of the system, simply a parameter. (Neither, to act
> defensive, is it being negative to say that something doesn't work
> within the system if it can't work that way.)
>
> Designing a system to remain ultimately flexible generally tends to
> create more flaws than strong points.

This is definitely not so. It may open the doors for more abuse than having a
system that isn't inherently flexible. Flexibility usually means more of a
challenge for the GM, while Inflexibility usually means more of a challenge
for the Player. Somewhere between the two is the game balance as it really
should be. Now is where someone might believe you are a "rules lawyer", and I
know we both know what those terms are. I wasn't afraid of taking
Message no. 7
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:50:32 -0500
And verily, did Wyrmy hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> Or a Comet Totem.
|
|You read my mind.BTW visit my new webpage. The url is in my sig.
|

All very well, but you don't have a .sig.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition.
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:58:16 EST
Yes, but most trolls CAN'T take several Manabolts. OTOH, what about the
dwarf with the pain editor and active adrenal pump- his 10 willpower
should let him take manabolts all day, despite his 4 body. Not by your
rules. By yours he uses... Armor?!?

By magics description, armor has NO effect on combat magic- the damage
is pumped through the aura! Thats both a useful game effect, and an
important shadowrun "fact" of magic.

>> Also, no resisting attribute means no real use for sheilding...
>
>Hmmm...resist with you shielding dice....

Yes, but the effect of sheilding is to "add to the resisting attribute"-
you can of course change that to "add t

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