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Message no. 1
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:37:38 EDT
In a message dated 9/23/98 9:46:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> This is also the source for the comment that Cor-Bons would stop a Black
> Bear. Given as how the editorial staff of this particular publication has
> over a hundred years of hunting and shooting experience amongst them,
> you'll pardon me if I take their word over yours.
I am going by the hunters that come into the store (and hearing one, I am most
likely making a runner with a bow, but that is another story :-)
I do not mind if you take their word over mine, you don't know me, so I
don't care. But remeber that publications do recieve money to review these
products, as with any media, remember where the bias lies.
I have heard of a few guys that have gone with a 357 mag, but never a 115 gr
9MM, even if you made it +P+P+P+, they would still go with a revolver or a
10MM, etc. (That is actually the reason the Glock rep said they continue
producing the 10MM, is because a lot of hunters like to carry it)
Message no. 2
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:06:24 EDT
In a message dated 9/23/98 1:39:38 PM AST, Schizi@***.COM writes:

> I have heard of a few guys that have gone with a 357 mag, but never a 115
> gr
> 9MM, even if you made it +P+P+P+, they would still go with a revolver or a
> 10MM, etc. (That is actually the reason the Glock rep said they continue
> producing the 10MM, is because a lot of hunters like to carry it)
>


I don't understand why anybody would do anything but vermin eradication with a
9MM. Rats and such are the only thing the "9" has the power to do anything
about. Much overrated and much over used caliber. I wasn't surprised at all to
see the special forces go back to the .45. Now that the large clips are no
longer available I can see it finding its way out just as fast as it arrived.
Good riddance.
Message no. 3
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:52:12 EDT
In a message dated 9/23/98 1:07:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Dhl9@***.COM
writes:

>
> I don't understand why anybody would do anything but vermin eradication
with
> a
> 9MM. Rats and such are the only thing the "9" has the power to do anything
> about. Much overrated and much over used caliber.
Depending on the actual, 9mm is very similar to other high power rounds. The
bad blood seems to exist mainly because of the use of 147 gr (and similar)
sub-sonic rounds. If you get a light round, you should have it going as fast
as you can get it, IMO. The instance I am using against the 9mm would apply
just as well to the .40 or the .45. They do not have the same kind of power vs
animals (well, the big ones anyway) I prefer .45 because I like the way it
shoots, not (wholly) because of power.
Just my opinion, but it seems that the 9MM gets maligned a lot, based on the
use of the worst ammo available for it. ("We better use the sub-sonic ones, we
don't want to hurt anyone")
Message no. 4
From: Machine-gun Kelly <mgkelly@****.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:18:07 -0500
Dhl9@***.COM wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/23/98 1:39:38 PM AST, Schizi@***.COM writes:
>
> > I have heard of a few guys that have gone with a 357 mag, but never a 115
> > gr
> > 9MM, even if you made it +P+P+P+, they would still go with a revolver or a
> > 10MM, etc.

> I don't understand why anybody would do anything but vermin eradication with a
> 9MM. Rats and such are the only thing the "9" has the power to do anything
> about. Much overrated and much over used caliber. I wasn't surprised at all to
> see the special forces go back to the .45. Now that the large clips are no
> longer available I can see it finding its way out just as fast as it arrived.
> Good riddance.

Speaking from personal experience, I used to have a 9mm. A friend of
mine loaded (and also hot-loaded) some 147 gr. Federal Law-Enforcment/
Military issue hollowpoints. We test fired it and plucked the bullets
out of the target. ONE bullet of out of 15 ALMOST mushroomed. The lip of
the hollowpoint cup was slightly deformed. I ended up selling the gun
(to our gaming groups idiot for an outrageous price) and going back to
the .357 Magnum, which I've never had any expansion problems with.
But, I'll digress, before this turns from SR to a firearms dicussion (as
if it hasn't already).
I would consider Light Pistols to be 9mm, meaning that the 6L Damage
Code is accurate.

Mgkelly
--
"The next time we go to the Tir, I'm bringing a nuke...."
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:30:04 -0400
At 04:06 PM 9/23/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> 10MM, etc. (That is actually the reason the Glock rep said they continue
>> producing the 10MM, is because a lot of hunters like to carry it)
>>
>I don't understand why anybody would do anything but vermin eradication
with a
>9MM. Rats and such are the only thing the "9" has the power to do anything
>about. Much overrated and much over used caliber. I wasn't surprised at
all to
>see the special forces go back to the .45. Now that the large clips are no
>longer available I can see it finding its way out just as fast as it arrived.
>Good riddance.

Well, by that logic, you wouldn't have the piddly little .22 still around
anymore. Of course, to my knowledge it's really only a "learning" calibre
and not used in any real applications with any frequency, but still.

A chunk of lead penetrating a body is still going to hurt, regradless of
how big or small it is.

What will probably happen is that 9mm handguns will end up being cheaper
(an attempt to prop up demand) and will become more viable as "hold-outs,"
a bit like the mini-9's that I've seen Glock advertise, those little 9mm
pistols that aren't any bigger than a normal male hand.

That all being said, I have a strong preference for the 10mm. For my
taste, the 9mm feels like a toy gun and the .45 has too much kick. The
10mm fits right in-between them and *feels* right to me.

That's the funny thing about guns, along with cars and computers and such.
Sometimes certain models or versions just *feel* better. Macs feel better
to me than Wintel machines. The 10mm feels better than a 9mm or a .45. My
Carbine paintball gun feels better than a Spyder or an Autococker.

I think a lot of times we lose sight of this when playing a RPG; even
really good role-players sometimes just automatically get an Ares Predator
II or an Ultrapower because they do 9M, despite the fact it might not
*feel* right to the PC.

Um...I think I'm rambling now...I'll be quiet now...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 6
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:42:34 -0700
> I think a lot of times we lose sight of this when playing a RPG; even
> really good role-players sometimes just automatically get an Ares
> Predator
> II or an Ultrapower because they do 9M, despite the fact it might not
> *feel* right to the PC.
>
It would be kinda hard to know how a gun "feels" in a character's
hand...unless the player just says it's so, but then that's just a
random thing...so wouldn't it make sense to say that everyone one of my
character's use a 9M gun, because it "feels" right?

Now if there was some type of rule to say that you'd get a bonus for
using a gun that feels right vs. a gun that doesn't....kinda like the
weapons prof.'s in another gaming system...you get a penality for using
a weapon that doesn't feel right...and a bonus for one that does...then
the weapon could be random...it would kind of even out the disadvantage
that a person would get from using anything less than a 9M...if you
catch my meaning...what do you think?

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:09:01 -0700
>In a message dated 9/23/98 9:46:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:
> I do not mind if you take their word over mine, you don't know me, so I
>don't care. But remeber that publications do recieve money to review these
>products, as with any media, remember where the bias lies.

Gun Tests does not advertise, accepts no money for advertisements, buys
products just like regular consumers, does not announce their tests to
manufacturers, and in general conducts as unbiased a test as possible.

If you were talking about Guns & Ammo or some similar publication, I might
agree. These guys are also hunters, etc ...
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 8
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:36:57 +0800
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:06:24 EDT, Dhl9@***.COM wrote:

>I don't understand why anybody would do anything but vermin eradication with a
>9MM. Rats and such are the only thing the "9" has the power to do anything
>about. Much overrated and much over used caliber. I wasn't surprised at all to
>see the special forces go back to the .45. Now that the large clips are no
>longer available I can see it finding its way out just as fast as it arrived.

a 9mm with a 14 inch barrel has more stopping power than a 44 magnum. A standard 9
mm is not all that much less effective than a 45 against a human.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."
Message no. 9
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:35:14 -0400
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

->Well, by that logic, you wouldn't have the piddly little .22 still around
->anymore. Of course, to my knowledge it's really only a "learning" calibre
->and not used in any real applications with any frequency, but still.

Actually, I considered the .22 to be a hold-out.

->A chunk of lead penetrating a body is still going to hurt, regradless of
->how big or small it is.

Especially if it's going REALLY fast. ]:-)

->What will probably happen is that 9mm handguns will end up being cheaper
->(an attempt to prop up demand) and will become more viable as "hold-outs,"
->a bit like the mini-9's that I've seen Glock advertise, those little 9mm
->pistols that aren't any bigger than a normal male hand.

Have to disagree. I think 9mm would still be in the Light Pistol
range, although some of the 9mm bullets could have less powders in them
and could be loaded in a hold-out.

->That all being said, I have a strong preference for the 10mm. For my
->taste, the 9mm feels like a toy gun and the .45 has too much kick. The
->10mm fits right in-between them and *feels* right to me.

Hell, I don't eve like pistols. I'm a rifle & shotgun man myself.

->That's the funny thing about guns, along with cars and computers and such.
->Sometimes certain models or versions just *feel* better. Macs feel better
->to me than Wintel machines. The 10mm feels better than a 9mm or a .45. My
->Carbine paintball gun feels better than a Spyder or an Autococker.

Stop feeling up your gun and PC, man, your SO will get jealous.
]:-) (That was a joke for those that don't know what an emoticon is for.)

->I think a lot of times we lose sight of this when playing a RPG; even
->really good role-players sometimes just automatically get an Ares Predator
->II or an Ultrapower because they do 9M, despite the fact it might not
->*feel* right to the PC.

Actually, I fall towards the Slivergun myself. It's quiet,
dangerous, capable of burst fire and, my real reason why I like it,
because it holds a LOT of bullets for a heavy pistol. Put an Improved Gas
vent IV on it and you're ready to raise some hell. ]:-)
What does a Gas Vent look like, anyway?
Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:46:10 -0400
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Davidson, Chris wrote:

->It would be kinda hard to know how a gun "feels" in a character's
->hand...unless the player just says it's so, but then that's just a
->random thing...so wouldn't it make sense to say that everyone one of my
->character's use a 9M gun, because it "feels" right?
->
->Now if there was some type of rule to say that you'd get a bonus for
->using a gun that feels right vs. a gun that doesn't....kinda like the
->weapons prof.'s in another gaming system...you get a penality for using
->a weapon that doesn't feel right...and a bonus for one that does...then
->the weapon could be random...it would kind of even out the disadvantage
->that a person would get from using anything less than a 9M...if you
->catch my meaning...what do you think?

One of my chars has a customized slivergun and a customized Ares
Predator. I think I can honestly say the guns "feel right" to him. It's
a matter of personal player preference (or, in this case, paying the extra
Nuyen).
This reminds me of the scene in Quigly Down Under where Tom
Selleck said he didn't have much use for a pistol. When it came right
down to it, he could use the pistol pretty well, but he just didn't 'like'
using it.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: The Stalker's Apprentice <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:49:54 GMT
>
> ->Now if there was some type of rule to say that you'd get a bonus for
> ->using a gun that feels right vs. a gun that doesn't....kinda like the
> ->weapons prof.'s in another gaming system...you get a penality for using
> ->a weapon that doesn't feel right...and a bonus for one that does...then
> ->the weapon could be random...it would kind of even out the disadvantage
> ->that a person would get from using anything less than a 9M...if you
> ->catch my meaning...what do you think?

My character has a customised Predator 2 and no-one can use it
without modifiers. No-ones ever tried so i have no idea what they are
but I'll try to find out what they are and where it comes from.
__________________________________________________
All year round Email address: Dallandra@******.net
Website http://come.to/Dallandra

"No no no, you loopy Brothel Inmate!!"
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:15:51 -0700
My character has a customised Predator 2 and no-one can use it
without modifiers. No-ones ever tried so i have no idea what they are
but I'll try to find out what they are and where it comes from.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Customized weapons are described in FoF; the person whom the weapon is
customized for gets an extra die when using it. Anybody else rolls one
less die if they use that weapon. One gun (a target pistol) comes with a
customizing kit (an adjustable grip)- most weapons must be customized by a
weaponsmith, which costs as much as the weapon (for parts), plus whatever
the GM feels like charging for the labor (to stop twinks from buying a
crate of customized throwing knives- or grenades).

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:17:22 -0700
> One of my chars has a customized slivergun and a customized
> Ares
> Predator. I think I can honestly say the guns "feel right" to him.
> It's
> a matter of personal player preference (or, in this case, paying the
> extra
> Nuyen).
> This reminds me of the scene in Quigly Down Under where Tom
> Selleck said he didn't have much use for a pistol. When it came right
> down to it, he could use the pistol pretty well, but he just didn't
> 'like'
> using it.
>
I was actually thinking about this more last night. So...say your new
character wants to be different and takes a heavy pistol with a damage
code of 7M...with a weapon prof. idea in place...he/she would get a +1
bonus to the damge code (or an extra die for the skill...you
decide)...but if he/she were to pick up a differnt heavy pistol, say a
9M damage code....since he/she isn't proficient in it, there would be a
-1 penalty to the damage code (one less die). The bonus/penalty amount
would depend on the weapon.

With this kind of idea in place...it would even out the power of all the
weapons in a similar class. Then you can use the nuyen to karma, to pay
for higher skill rating in that weapon to make it even better, so it
would be like paying for a higher quality weapon. This is just
preliminary thoughts as I sit in VB class. :) pro's - con's?

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 14
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:22:39 -0700
> My character has a customised Predator 2 and no-one can use it
> without modifiers. No-ones ever tried so i have no idea what they are
> but I'll try to find out what they are and where it comes from.
>
Cool...let me know.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 15
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:27:56 -0400
At 08:35 AM 9/24/98 -0400, you wrote:

>->What will probably happen is that 9mm handguns will end up being cheaper
>->(an attempt to prop up demand) and will become more viable as
"hold-outs,"
>->a bit like the mini-9's that I've seen Glock advertise, those little 9mm
>->pistols that aren't any bigger than a normal male hand.
>
> Have to disagree. I think 9mm would still be in the Light Pistol
>range, although some of the 9mm bullets could have less powders in them
>and could be loaded in a hold-out.

Maybe in the SR classes. I'm just thinking that the most recent copy of
Soldier of Fortune that I bought a few months back (it's interesting to
read those and Guns&Ammo and the like every now and again; don't have a
subscription, but it's an insight into a whole other world) has a couple of
"mini" Glocks on the back cover I think and they are friggin' tiny. I
don't have large hands (can't quite palm a basketball and hold it) and they
look tiny enough that I could cover one up with a single hand. Probably a
misperception, but they do seem rather small.

> Stop feeling up your gun and PC, man, your SO will get jealous.
>]:-) (That was a joke for those that don't know what an emoticon is for.)

I was going to say something witty here, but that would mean admitting
various things, and well, while you can probably guess them, I'd rather not
get *too* obvious...

> Actually, I fall towards the Slivergun myself. It's quiet,
>dangerous, capable of burst fire and, my real reason why I like it,

Hey Smilin' Ted, what is the gun that Alec uses? The Ares Viper. It seems
to fit the character and it isn't just some big massive pistol, like a
Predator II or the Savalette (my personal fave in SR). My main PC has the
Guardian, but keeps it polished mirror bright and has custom grips and
whatnot.

> What does a Gas Vent look like, anyway?

All a Gas Vent does is direct escaping gases in a direction such as to
modify recoil. So the simplest gas vent would merely be cuts in a barrel,
a *little* bit like a muzzle brake that would direct the gas, typically
upwards (pushing down) to help combat upwards recoil.

I'd think that a modern 2060 Gas Vent-4 might be something similar but
could be "smart" and might be able to modify in which direction it vents
the gas, dependent on how the user is moving (swing the gun around or
something odd) and windage (thought it's probably not sensitive in this
regard). Might look like an oversized barrel sleeve maybe, or one of those
weights that are sometimes added to competition pistols to also combat recoil.

But, honestly, it's been a long time since I've seen my Uncle's competition
handguns, so I'm very probably a more than a bit fuzzy here.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 16
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:32:35 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Davidson, Chris wrote:

<snip me>
->I was actually thinking about this more last night. So...say your new
->character wants to be different and takes a heavy pistol with a damage
->code of 7M...with a weapon prof. idea in place...he/she would get a +1
->bonus to the damge code (or an extra die for the skill...you
->decide)...but if he/she were to pick up a differnt heavy pistol, say a
->9M damage code....since he/she isn't proficient in it, there would be a
->-1 penalty to the damage code (one less die). The bonus/penalty amount
->would depend on the weapon.

The Power of a weapon's Damage Code is the result of the actual,
well, POWER of the weapon. The more "oomph" the round/arrow/club/whatever
has behind it, the greater it's power. Only thing skill can do with it is
make it closer to where you want the round/(see above) to go. In melee,
additional skill may increase the power of the attack, but not in ranged
attacks.

->With this kind of idea in place...it would even out the power of all the
->weapons in a similar class. Then you can use the nuyen to karma, to pay
->for higher skill rating in that weapon to make it even better, so it
->would be like paying for a higher quality weapon. This is just
->preliminary thoughts as I sit in VB class. :) pro's - con's?

I'm not saying you can't do it that way, but it doesn't seem to
make any sense, IMO.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 17
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:55:47 -0700
> The Power of a weapon's Damage Code is the result of the
> actual,
> well, POWER of the weapon. The more "oomph" the
> round/arrow/club/whatever
> has behind it, the greater it's power. Only thing skill can do with
> it is
> make it closer to where you want the round/(see above) to go. In
> melee,
> additional skill may increase the power of the attack, but not in
> ranged
> attacks.
>
That's a good point, but you aren't getting the bonus/penalty, because
the weapon is more/less powerful, you are getting because you are more
familiar (sp?) with that gun than anything else thus...I don't know all
the specifics, just a general idea...aim better because of
comfort...know the limitations of the weapon...or penalty because you
aren't used to having the pull the trigger harder so it pulls your shot
up, ever so slightly...etc etc etc....

> I'm not saying you can't do it that way, but it doesn't seem
> to
> make any sense, IMO.
>
Are you saying that it would make more sense to get an extra die, rather
than modify the power of the weapon? BTW, I'm talking SR2 rules.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 18
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:21:09 EDT
In a message dated 9/24/98 9:31:48 AM, you wrote:

>> Actually, I fall towards the Slivergun myself. It's quiet,
>>dangerous, capable of burst fire and, my real reason why I like it,
>
>Hey Smilin' Ted, what is the gun that Alec uses? The Ares Viper. It seems
>to fit the character and it isn't just some big massive pistol, like a
>Predator II or the Savalette (my personal fave in SR). My main PC has the
>Guardian, but keeps it polished mirror bright and has custom grips and
>whatnot.
Message no. 19
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:23:46 EDT
In a message dated 9/24/98 9:31:48 AM, you wrote:

>> Actually, I fall towards the Slivergun myself. It's quiet,
>>dangerous, capable of burst fire and, my real reason why I like it,
>
>Hey Smilin' Ted, what is the gun that Alec uses? The Ares Viper. It seems
>to fit the character and it isn't just some big massive pistol, like a
>Predator II or the Savalette (my personal fave in SR). My main PC has the
>Guardian, but keeps it polished mirror bright and has custom grips and
>whatnot.

Em...apologies for the inadvertent post without my reply. Here it is.

The Viper and the Slivergun are the same thing...the Ares Viper Slivergun. And
my character likes it. High damage, integral silencer, and pretty concealable.
The only drawback is its showing against armor, and even that is less than
what's implied in the text description (as opposed to the results when you
check the actual game mechanics).

ST
Message no. 20
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:55:23 EDT
In a message dated 9/23/98 7:08:44 PM AST, oliver@*********.com writes:

> a 9mm with a 14 inch barrel has more stopping power than a 44 magnum. A
> standard 9
> mm is not all that much less effective than a 45 against a human.
>

A 14 inch barrel? I hope it would be more effective but who carries any
sidearm with a 14 inch barrel? Standard pistol barrels it is no match for the
.45 much less the .357. Evan Marshalls statistics on actual street shootings
show clearly that both the .45 and the .357 are far superior calibers.
Message no. 21
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:30:01 EDT
In a message dated 9/23/98 4:53:12 PM AST, Schizi@***.COM writes:

> Depending on the actual, 9mm is very similar to other high power rounds. The
> bad blood seems to exist mainly because of the use of 147 gr (and similar)
> sub-sonic rounds. If you get a light round, you should have it going as
fast
> as you can get it, IMO. The instance I am using against the 9mm would apply
> just as well to the .40 or the .45. They do not have the same kind of power
> vs
> animals (well, the big ones anyway) I prefer .45 because I like the way it
> shoots, not (wholly) because of power.
> Just my opinion, but it seems that the 9MM gets maligned a lot, based on
> the
> use of the worst ammo available for it. ("We better use the sub-sonic ones,
> we
> don't want to hurt anyone")
>

I read in Guns and Amm that the favorable comparisons of the 9mm vs. the .45
are misleading because the best ammo for the 9mm is only avilable to law
enforcement personel. If the average citizen thinks he can go in his local
gunshop and buy the ammo with the 90% one shot stop numbers he/she is in for a
rude awakening.

Have you ever shot the Remington 185-gr. +P for the .45? 90% one shot stops
according to Evan Marshall. I was amazed at how little recoil they offer.
Message no. 22
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:34:26 EDT
In a message dated 9/23/98 6:07:47 PM AST, acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> Gun Tests does not advertise, accepts no money for advertisements, buys
> products just like regular consumers, does not announce their tests to
> manufacturers, and in general conducts as unbiased a test as possible.
>

Of all the gun mags out there Gun Test is the best. I used to subscribe to a
number of gum mags. If I were to start again Gun Test would be the only one I
would need.
Message no. 23
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: An Interesting question.....black bear
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:06:08 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Smilin' Ted wrote:

<snip>
->The Viper and the Slivergun are the same thing...the Ares Viper Slivergun. And
->my character likes it. High damage, integral silencer, and pretty concealable.
->The only drawback is its showing against armor, and even that is less than
->what's implied in the text description (as opposed to the results when you
->check the actual game mechanics).

Do like they say, "Aim High". I don't encounter too many people
with helments. The ones I do encounter with helments I use the Predator
on.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

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Thwap!