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Message no. 1
From: TopCat <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: A note on speed...
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 11:05:43 -0500
I find it greatly disheartening that many players feel that a 3D6 initiative
on a samurai is nothing short of blasphemous while a mage can have all the
quickened and locked initiative and reaction bonuses in the world and be
called a role-player for it.

Role-playing can happen despite speed *gasp*. Fast chars can often be
extremely good CHARACTERS and not just monsters. Just because you're slow
doesn't mean you're all of a sudden a roleplayer, either. Sure, with the
new systems a samurai can be TONS faster than anything else out there (I
speak of the move-by-wire system). But he has to sacrifice his life to get
it. Oh, and become dual-natured without any of the benefits. Did I mention
he'll need the influence and resources of a corporation to get that? Or the
fact that his body will be in constant seisure state?

Now a wiz can sit by and nab +3D6 to initiative and +3 reaction with a
thought and an advil. He doesn't go off like a beacon on any detectors (he
can "power down" so astral stuff doesn't see him). No roleplaying going on
there except "I'm a magician, isn't that cool?" Whereas if the samurai
sporting the multi-million nuyen cyberware suite even thinks of going
anywhere, he has to worry that someone's going to realize that he's got what
he has. Whether it be a gang of trolls who work for a body-shop or a
LoneStar officer with a scanner and a radio nearby. You have to roleplay
that... you can't just say "I'm a samurai, I make my cyberware disappear."

Very few mages that I know of would dare run around without their increased
reflexes locks. In fact, not a single one of the players in my group have
ever made a mage who didn't have that spell. If they didn't get it in
creation, they got it one session later with their karma and training from
team members. And here's the worst part... roleplayers they are not. One,
yes. He's good, but he still had the spell (which is kinda hard to fit to
the char because of his type, but he had it anyway...). But the rest are
little combat munchers. Our shaman doesn't have the spell *gasp* but gets
around it in other ways to be mentioned at a far later date...

Anyway, here's the gist of my rant... Speed doesn't mean bad roleplayer.
Slow doesn't mean good roleplayer. Mage doesn't mean good roleplayer.
Samurai doesn't mean bad roleplayer. Starting to see something there? In
fact, it's a rare day when I see true roleplaying out of mages. But I don't
consider "I cast this spell and this happens" roleplaying. Mages are
god-king munchkin rollplayer characters. The only thing that can change
that is the player (and it's not as easy as it looks). GM's at least can
influence cybered folk.


-- TopCat
Who thinks that mage = shaman and mage, so don't bother with that old reply...
Message no. 2
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A note on speed...
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 23:54:27 GMT
> I find it greatly disheartening that many players feel that a 3D6 initiative
> on a samurai is nothing short of blasphemous while a mage can have all the
> quickened and locked initiative and reaction bonuses in the world and be
> called a role-player for it.

Preaching to the converted, Bob... but then we Mohicans have to stick
together :)

> Anyway, here's the gist of my rant... Speed doesn't mean bad roleplayer.
> Slow doesn't mean good roleplayer. Mage doesn't mean good roleplayer.
> Samurai doesn't mean bad roleplayer. Starting to see something there? In
> fact, it's a rare day when I see true roleplaying out of mages. But I don't
> consider "I cast this spell and this happens" roleplaying. Mages are
> god-king munchkin rollplayer characters. The only thing that can change
> that is the player (and it's not as easy as it looks). GM's at least can
> influence cybered folk.

Well, my only magical character at the moment is an initiate Wolf Shaman...
with delta-grade Wired-II. (Jani knows *all* about this guy... :) he was
severely modified to be wound back to become a starting PC, but to my
surprise it was still possible to capture the essence of the character
at that level.)

Why? Because he *has* to be fast. He's a fighter. But if he uses magical means
it can be detected and destroyed... nobody can take out his wires from astral.
And once, someone grounded a spell into a lock he was carrying and badly hurt
his sister in the area-effect. This, to a Wolf shaman, was rather traumatic.
Hence he never used a spell lock again... His magic is barely to the standard
of non-initiates on account of 3 Essence lost to cyberware and bioware. But
then this is a PC who increases his Firearms and Armed Combat in preference to
learning more spells...

(And he does *that* because his current spells toast mundanes nicely, while
enemy magicians respond better to knives through the head than to spells)

Personally I still like a friend (*slow* detective PC)'s approach to combat.
1 - "All right, has everyone got a silenced weapon? I have my sniper rifle..."
2 - "Yes, my bow."
3 - "Yes, my silenced pistol."
M - "Yes."
1 - "Marlow? What are you using that's silent?"
M - "The most silent weapon of all. I don't have a weapon. I don't like them."

A detective with a phobia of guns and knives. I thought *that* was roleplaying.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A note on speed...
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 10:55:43 +0100
TopCat <SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl> said on 30 Sep 95...

> Anyway, here's the gist of my rant... Speed doesn't mean bad roleplayer.
> Slow doesn't mean good roleplayer. Mage doesn't mean good roleplayer.
> Samurai doesn't mean bad roleplayer. Starting to see something there?

Nothing I hadn't noticed before, but IMHO it's good you point this bit
out... It seems to me a lot of people immediately shout "MUNCHKIN" when
you have a character with anything more than *exaggeration mode on* cotton
underwear for armor and a peashooter for a weapon :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...in somebody else's sky...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 4
From: Jason Earl <SirPuck@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A note on speed...
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 20:49:19 -0400
In a message dated 95-09-30 12:09:09 EDT, you write:

>Anyway, here's the gist of my rant... Speed doesn't mean bad roleplayer.
>Slow doesn't mean good roleplayer. Mage doesn't mean good roleplayer.
>Samurai doesn't mean bad roleplayer. Starting to see something there? In
>fact, it's a rare day when I see true roleplaying out of mages. But I don't
>consider "I cast this spell and this happens" roleplaying. Mages are
>god-king munchkin rollplayer characters. The only thing that can change
>that is the player (and it's not as easy as it looks). GM's at least can
>influence cybered folk.
>
>
>-- TopCat
>Who thinks that mage = shaman and mage, so don't bother with that old
>reply...

Amen hallelujah. Magic is an important part of the world of 2050, but it is
not all powerful. If you want to play in a world where the ONLY path is
magic, feel free to play Earthdawn. Shadowrun is as much about chrome as it
is about orichalcum. Magicians (and that includes Physical Adepts), just
need to get it through their collective heads that they will NEVER have
faster reflexes than the fastest of the cyberboys, that is the chromeboy's
edge. Magicians make intimidating characters, of that there is no doubt, but
your average mage would be ill-advised in upsetting a Samurai at close
quarters because the Street Sam should almost always get first shot; an Ares
Predator II can make some big holes.

Of course there continue to be some GM's who don't count Bioware as
"Cyberware" or who bend the rules in some other manner (allowing for crazy
fast Phys. Ads. and Magicians), but such is life.

By the way TopCat are you by any chance THE TopCat the Elf Street Sam? If
you are interesting story about your first run; although I must admit I heard
that you got some help geeking the Troll.

No offense intended, of course. After all I am just a lowly decker, what do
I know about wetwork.

Sir Puck
Message no. 5
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: A note on speed...
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:49:30 +0100
Topcat wrote:
[good stuff about roleplaying and speed]

Yes, I have to agree in all points but there comes another problem:

If you got a mixed group of combat-people like sams, physAds, etc. and
'role-playing'-people like detectives, fixers, info-mongers etc. (I'm
not saying that combat-people don't do roleplaying 8) and the size of
the group is big, let's say 5-7 people, it's just hard to keep them all
occupied. The easy way for that is normally to throw in a fight, so
everybody can get out his GUN and shot something, even if (s)he hasn't a
clue who this goons are. With a mixed group you got the problem that you're
doing one thing or the other, but never something with the whole group.
*sigh* I don't think this is getting clear, sorry. I don't have any solutions
for this mess, either.
bye,
Stefan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but there's nothing like having your friends show up with lots of guns.
-Frank Miller, The Big Fat Kill
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Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: A note on speed...
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:23:14 +0100
TopCat said:
> Anyway, here's the gist of my rant... Speed doesn't mean bad roleplayer.
> Slow doesn't mean good roleplayer. Mage doesn't mean good roleplayer.
> Samurai doesn't mean bad roleplayer. Starting to see something there? In
> fact, it's a rare day when I see true roleplaying out of mages. But I don't
> consider "I cast this spell and this happens" roleplaying. Mages are
> god-king munchkin rollplayer characters. The only thing that can change
> that is the player (and it's not as easy as it looks). GM's at least can
> influence cybered folk.

C'mon Bob, we all know that this is your pet grudge and that you dont
exactly like full magicians, but no one said that speed makes for bad
roleplaying or that samurai are destined to be illogical characters from
the beginning. All I and the others said was that slow characters can
be dangerous and interesting to play and that speed (no matter witch kind)
is not the only way to go. Everybody simply refers to samies as the
stereotypical speed freaks because their cyberware is by far superior to any
other reflex enhancement.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."

Further Reading

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