Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 12:52:26 +0200
Right.

I just thought I'd say hi everyone, here I am. Which I am doing
right now. Sorta.

Okay, throwing myself headlong into this Initiation business:

I hate initiation, and I think it's waaay to powerful for my
gamers (although that may be because I'm a sadistic bastard). So, I
decided long ago to use Partial Initiation (there's some article on it
down the net). The main principle is that you get to buy one Metamagic
skill for every grade of Initiation you achieve (metaplanar projection
coming as a bonus in the first Initiation). That slows down the action
somewhat.

Second, I am of the opinion that Essence *can* be regained,
albeit for high costs and with much labour. I mean, drug addicts can go
through detox, which means a revitalization of Essence, per the ST rules.
So why not burnt-out mages as well, hmm?

Hey, Jani, slow down that keyboard! It's red-hot! I must have
recieved ten messages from you while I wrote this!

Back in a jiffy.

Jonas Gabrielson (m94jga@*******.tdb.uu.se)
Message no. 2
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 14:44:30 +0200
> Hey, Jani, slow down that keyboard! It's red-hot! I must have
> recieved ten messages from you while I wrote this!

:) Arghhh I have to catch up with Rat he has some 400 messages on me :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 23:58:57 +1000
Jonas Gabrielson writes:

> I just thought I'd say hi everyone, here I am. Which I am doing
> right now. Sorta.

Hi there.

> [Gradual initiation]

Yeah, this actually makes it worthwhile to go beyond a level 0 initiate. A
number of people use this (or a very similar) rule.

> Second, I am of the opinion that Essence *can* be regained,
> albeit for high costs and with much labour. I mean, drug addicts can go
> through detox, which means a revitalization of Essence, per the ST rules.
> So why not burnt-out mages as well, hmm?

Well, in the opinion of many of us here, the Essence loss rules for drug
addiction are completely innacurate anyway. But remember, when a magician
becomes "burned out", he loses Magic, _not_ Essence (unless he gets cyber).
And if you allow a burned our magician to regain Essence, why not a sammy?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 12:36:07 +0200
>> [Gradual initiation]
>
>Yeah, this actually makes it worthwhile to go beyond a level 0 initiate. A
>number of people use this (or a very similar) rule.

I do, which yesterday (well, this morning...) lead my player to say "Karma
is for increasing your Magic attribute" when I said he could improve his
Sorcery skill to get a larger Magic Pool...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 5
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 18:10:11 +0200
On Sat, 22 Apr 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> > Second, I am of the opinion that Essence *can* be regained,
> > albeit for high costs and with much labour. I mean, drug addicts can go
> > through detox, which means a revitalization of Essence, per the ST rules.
> > So why not burnt-out mages as well, hmm?
>
> Well, in the opinion of many of us here, the Essence loss rules for drug
> addiction are completely innacurate anyway. But remember, when a magician
> becomes "burned out", he loses Magic, _not_ Essence (unless he gets cyber).
> And if you allow a burned our magician to regain Essence, why not a sammy?

[On Essence loss with drugs]: Yeah? So, you just erased them, or
what? I mean, I'm not a drug-addict myself, but it sure tears at the ole
bodily temple.

[On regaining Essence]: Certainly - all *free* Essence can be
regained, or at least a portion of them. There are quite nifty rules on
this in some web site (NERPS: Shadowlore, if my memory serves me correct)
that I use. Anyway, I don't mean that Essence spent on Cyberware can be
regained, only that if Cyberware is removed, the "hole" can be regained
to a certain degree. And, yes, burnt Magic stay burnt (you can't be too
pansy with them, after all).

-Jonas
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 00:22:19 +1000
Jonas Gabrielson writes:

> [On Essence loss with drugs]: Yeah? So, you just erased them, or
> what? I mean, I'm not a drug-addict myself, but it sure tears at the ole
> bodily temple.

Well, we more or less dropped the Essense loss bit of them, yeah. But, on
the topic of just how severly drugs affect you, I think FASA has it _badly_
wrong. Look at all the herion addicts and the like who survive more or less
normally (asuming they get their fix) for their entire lives. At 1/2 an
Essense a week (I think) that S-Tech deducts for being drug addicted, they
ain't got long to live. This is just not portrayed in RL. Morphine addicts
exhibit no such debilitating effects as suggested in S-Tech. I just think
FASA jumped on the "drugs a bad" bandwagon a little too much. Sure, drugs
affect you in adverse ways, but nowhere near as chronically as FASA
protrayed it. And by introducing such severe side-effects, they neglected a
major part of the cyberpunk atmosphere. Drugs. I feel that CP 2020's drugs
and rules on them are much superior, as the give the proper feel for drugs
in a cyberpunk setting.

> [On regaining Essence]: Certainly - all *free* Essence can be
> regained, or at least a portion of them. There are quite nifty rules on
> this in some web site (NERPS: Shadowlore, if my memory serves me correct)
> that I use. Anyway, I don't mean that Essence spent on Cyberware can be
> regained, only that if Cyberware is removed, the "hole" can be regained
> to a certain degree. And, yes, burnt Magic stay burnt (you can't be too
> pansy with them, after all).

Yeah, it is cool enough to allow essense "holes" to be regained, but I'd
make it require extensive gene cleansing and the like before it were
possible.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 7
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 09:13:24 -0700
>>Jonas Gabrielson writes:
>> [On Essence loss with drugs]: Yeah? So, you just erased
them, or
>> what? I mean, I'm not a drug-addict myself, but it sure tears at
the ole
>> bodily temple.
>
>Damion Writes:
>Well, we more or less dropped the Essense loss bit of them, yeah.
But, on
>the topic of just how severly drugs affect you, I think FASA has
it _badly_
>wrong. Look at all the herion addicts and the like who survive
more or less
>normally (asuming they get their fix) for their entire lives. At 1/2 an
>Essense a week (I think) that S-Tech deducts for being drug
addicted, they
>ain't got long to live. This is just not portrayed in RL.

I play it that your willpower/essence (which ever is higher) drops at 1/2
a point a week until it reaches 0 (only as a reference) - once
that number
reaches 0 you lose 1 essence and you are completely hooked. From then
on you do not want to quit. Only on a near death occurance will I
allow them to quit raising the number back to it's original
willpower/essence.
Then once a week from then on then roll their karma dice to get a
success to
stay off the drugs. (number of weeks - GM discression)

Just a suggestion.
Thanks
Gary
Message no. 8
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 19:18:35 +0200
> > [On regaining Essence]: Certainly - all *free* Essence can be
> > regained, or at least a portion of them. There are quite nifty rules on
> > this in some web site (NERPS: Shadowlore, if my memory serves me correct)
> > that I use. Anyway, I don't mean that Essence spent on Cyberware can be
> > regained, only that if Cyberware is removed, the "hole" can be
regained
> > to a certain degree. And, yes, burnt Magic stay burnt (you can't be too
> > pansy with them, after all).
>
> Yeah, it is cool enough to allow essense "holes" to be regained, but I'd
> make it require extensive gene cleansing and the like before it were
> possible.

If allow essence regeneration if the character clones the missing
limb/organ from his own DNA and "implants" it. Essence loss that
comes from other sources (Deadly wounds, drugs etc.) is regained
very *hard* if at all.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 13:52:49 +1000
Gary Carroll writes:

> I play it that your willpower/essence (which ever is higher) drops at 1/2
> a point a week until it reaches 0 (only as a reference) - once that number
> reaches 0 you lose 1 essence and you are completely hooked. From then on
> you do not want to quit. Only on a near death occurance will I allow them
> to quit raising the number back to it's original willpower/essence. Then
> once a week from then on then roll their karma dice to get a success to stay
> off the drugs. (number of weeks - GM discression)

What happens to the Essense 0 sammy when he gets addicted? Does he go to
Essense -1, or does he die?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 11:11:19 BST
I always wondered why people stated that essence was lost when
an arm or leg was shot off.

Is it something to do with the 'simple replacement' listed
under cyberlimbs, IMHO that's just a simple prosthetic cyber-
limb that can;t accept any of the feautres a true, chrome limb
can.

Phil (Renegade, who has a 90% compatible limb for 0 essence,
cos it's human)
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:31:59 +0200
>What happens to the Essense 0 sammy when he gets addicted? Does he go to
>Essense -1, or does he die?

He'd die, I guess. I believe FASA states somewhere that you can't have less
that 0 Essence, no matter what caused it, so the drugs would kill him.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Beware of unfamiliar chickens
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 12
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 08:53:29 -0400
>>>>> "P" == P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK> writes:

P> I always wondered why people stated that essence was lost when
P> an arm or leg was shot off.

It is not. You only lose essence when you graft cyber to the body.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 00:35:23 +3400
Stainless Steel Rat writes:

> P> I always wondered why people stated that essence was lost when
> P> an arm or leg was shot off.
>
> It is not. You only lose essence when you graft cyber to the body.

There is always that line on page 42 of SRII which can further cloud the
issue:

"All characters have a starting Essence Rating of 6. Cyberware implants and
improperly healed damage reduce this rating."

But there is no explanation anywhere else in the book.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 11:43:47 +0200
>P> I always wondered why people stated that essence was lost when
>P> an arm or leg was shot off.
>
>It is not. You only lose essence when you graft cyber to the body.

That is a bit strange then, come to think of it... if I lose my arm, I'm
still at 6 Essence. But if I go to a hospital and say "bolt a cyberarm to
what's left of my real arm," and I've got only 5 Essence left...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Too many problems... Why am I here?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 19:22:55 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> >It is not. You only lose essence when you graft cyber to the body.
>
> That is a bit strange then, come to think of it... if I lose my arm, I'm
> still at 6 Essence. But if I go to a hospital and say "bolt a cyberarm to
> what's left of my real arm," and I've got only 5 Essence left...

Well, you'd expect to lose some essence in both case... After all, you've
got an arm missing, and they do have to implant more stuff than just the
arm.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 16
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 11:22:10 -0400
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

Gurth> That is a bit strange then, come to think of it... if I lose my arm,
Gurth> I'm still at 6 Essence. But if I go to a hospital and say "bolt a
Gurth> cyberarm to what's left of my real arm," and I've got only 5 Essence
Gurth> left...

That's it exactly. What causes the Essence loss isn't the replacement, it's
the grafting of non-living stuff to your nervous system. Cut off your hand;
you don't lose Essence. Bolt on a hook; you don't lose Essence. Graft a
cybernetic hand to your nervous system; you lose Essence. That's why,
generally, the more invasive it is, the closer it is or the tighter it's
linked to your central nervous system, the more Essence it costs you.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Message no. 17
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 17:42:00 +0200
> >P> I always wondered why people stated that essence was lost when
> >P> an arm or leg was shot off.
> >
> >It is not. You only lose essence when you graft cyber to the body.

It actually goes like this, you cant loose a limb - you have to
take a pretty bad wound (that might result in loss of essence). Then you
have to roll yourself a lost limb. So you get to loose a limb (and the
essence that goes with it).

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 18
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 07:55:08 -0700
>>Gary Carroll writes:
>> I play it that your willpower/essence (which ever is higher)
drops at 1/2
>> a point a week until it reaches 0 (only as a reference) - once
that number
>> reaches 0 you lose 1 essence and you are completely hooked.
From then on
>> you do not want to quit. Only on a near death occurrence will I
allow them
>> to quit raising the number back to it's original
willpower/essence. Then
>> once a week from then on then roll their karma dice to get a
success to stay
>> off the drugs. (number of weeks - GM discretion)
>
>Damion writes:
>What happens to the Essence 0 sammy when he gets addicted? Does he go to
>Essence -1, or does he die?

Well I would have him roll his luck if he fails he slips into
unconsciousness or death depending on the strength of the drug. If
he makes it he is then completely hooked. Have you ever thought to
yourself, now that would be one very scary drug addict.

Yehaaa
Thanks
Gary.
Message no. 19
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:39:29 +0200
On Mon, 1 May 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >P> I always wondered why people stated that essence was lost when
> >P> an arm or leg was shot off.
> >
> >It is not. You only lose essence when you graft cyber to the body.
>
> That is a bit strange then, come to think of it... if I lose my arm, I'm
> still at 6 Essence. But if I go to a hospital and say "bolt a cyberarm to
> what's left of my real arm," and I've got only 5 Essence left...

Well, people that have had some part of themselves amputated
often get sensory impressions from those places, even though they are cut
off. This is explained with errant neural signals routed the wrong way,
like the "deja vu" phenomenon is explained as when an impression gets
routed into long-term memory by mistake (you see it, it routs to memory,
and suddenly you think you've seen it long ago, but you cant place the
time), but maybe it can be explained in a more mystical (Shadowrun) way.
Like, perhaps your aura is still whole and causing these impressions.
Only when a technological replacement is fitted, this part of the aura /
Essence is obliterated (two things can't exist at the same time in the
same place). A cloned part, however, has the ability of integrating the
old aura with itself (like Bioware), and thus does not cause Essence loss.

-Jonas
Message no. 20
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re[2]: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation (fwd)
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 15:12:19 +0200
I got this message as exclusive mail. I think it never got posted
to the list, so I'm forwarding it now. I guess the author pushed the
wrong button somewhere along the line. Thank me, Gregory! :)

-Jonas

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:31:01 -0700
From: readeg@***.GOV
To: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject: Re[2]: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation

Subject: Re: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation
Author: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE> at unix-mail

>often get sensory impressions from those places(limbs), even though they
>are cut off. This is explained with errant neural signals routed the wrong
>way, like the "deja vu" phenomenon is explained as when an impression gets
>routed into long-term memory by mistake (you see it, it routs to memory,
>-Jonas

Actually I think it makes alot of sense that you don't lose essence until you
add the cyber-limb to the body. Perhaps if the character were to go Astral his
limb would be there, until replaced by cyber...


Gregory Reade
Message no. 21
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation (fwd)
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:27:28 BST
This is very strange, I'm sure I've seen arguments on this list
where people advocated losing a point of essence when a limb
was blown off.

Still, that appears not to have been the case, so I'd ignore
the question ('less of course, it really does interest you).

Phil (Renegade)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Another Newbie bites the dust + Re:Initiation, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!