Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Fri Apr 6 16:15:01 2001
Just an idea I had...

SR2 and SR3 intiative systems "stack" the actions either at the end or at
the beggining of the round. Neither is even remotely realistic. If we had
to fill a time window (a round) with a given number of actions, it would be
good to spread them regularly... Unfortunately the SR initiative isn't well
suited for that. I designed such a system some time ago, but it used a
table and wasn't very fluid. So the idea is to take the middle ground:
stack the actions in the middle of the round, by centering the rolled
initiative score. I don't know if this makes much sense, so let's go to rules:

Initiatice is rolled as usual, and actions are counted as usual (18 rolled,
two actions). Then, the Initiative Score is halved, rounded up, and is
considered the character's first combat phase. Then, it's the usual SR2
sequence, where the character can act every ten, err, let's say Initiative
Index. But the difference with previous systems, is that the Initiative
Index is allowed to go negative, until everybody performs the number of
actions allowed by their first roll. In case of a tie, usual rules apply.
It's probably not very clear, so let's see a few examples:

Joe, our friendly snail shaman, rolls init 6 - he will act in 6/2 = 3 and
that's all.
Helena the physad rolls 15 - she will act in 15/2 = 8 and 8-10 = -2
Sam, wired bodyguard, gets a 25 - he will act in 13, 3 (before Joe) and -7
Merou the Uber-munchkin cyberdemon gets a 41 (yucks !) - he will kick the
group's collective ass in 21, 11, 1 -9 and -19.
Acting order will be: Merou, Sam, Merou, Helena, Sam, Joe, Merou, Helena,
Sam, Merou, Merou

With this rule, fastest characters still act first, but can act several
time before slower people, unlike under the SR3 rule. However, faster
people will more often act several times /after/ the slower ones. If you
don't like this, you can change the "step" between two active Phases for a
character from 10 to a lower number - 5 will end up like SR2 standard...
With a step of 8, the above examples would be:
Joe - 3
Helena - 8, 0
Sam - 13, 5, -2
Merou - 21, 13, 5, -2, -10
Acting order will be: Merou, Merou, Sam, Helena, Merou, Sam, Joe, Helena,
Merou, Sam, Merou.

In fact, thinking about it, it's just changing the "step"... My system is
SR2 with a step of 20. Well, almost, due to rounding. SR2 with step 20 on
the above example would give:
Joe - 6
Helena - 15, -5
Sam - 25, 5 (rounding error before), -15
Merou - 41, 21, 1, -19, -39

Large steps help slower characters. With a VERY large step (e.g. 100), you
get SR3. Low steps favour fast ones. A value of 20 (or first dividing by 2,
then step 10) is easy enough to calculate, but something around 15 should
produce a more even spread... It feels weird in my example that Sam can't
act twice before Joe, despite a huge difference in Initiative Score.

The "stacking" problem is still there though, as if slow people acted in a
very short time span, whereas fast ones are more regular... Neatly solving
this would need a major rework that I don't wan't to tackle.

So... If you managed to live so far... Wad'aya'fink ? :-)

Molloy
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tobias Diekershoff)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Sat Apr 7 03:35:01 2001
On 06-Apr-01 Achille Autran wrote:
> Just an idea I had...
>
<snip the description>
>
> So... If you managed to live so far... Wad'aya'fink ? :-)

Yes I survived ... and it was not hart to survive as this could be a solution
for the dilemma I'm sittting in. :-)

I'll send this to my charakters and ask them if we would trie this system.

> Molloy

- Burning Avatar

----------------------------------
BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Sun Apr 8 15:00:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Achille Autran <aautran@****.fr>
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...


> Just an idea I had...
>
<SNIP>
> So... If you managed to live so far... Wad'aya'fink ? :-)
>
> Molloy
>

It could probably work. The solution I have used for years (and it works
beautifully I might add) is the initiative system in ShadowFAQ an Dumpshock.
Fast characters still kick ass and slower characters aren't spoot as soon.

It (very roughly) works out to changing the phases the characters act on
from 10 to a number based on the level of enhancement.

Example Bubba da troll normally has 12+4d6 initiative (wired level 3) and
Stubby the dwarf has 8+2d6 (wired level 1). Instead of Bubba going on
say...27, 17, and 7 and Stubby going on 15, and 5 . Normally they act every
10 phases but in this system that number changes.

I use variant 2 as well as setting the base initiative roll to 1d6 for
everyone.

Bubba rolls 12+1d6 and goes every 5, Stubby rolls 8+1d6 and goes every 7.
Bubba goes on 14, 9, and 4 and Stubby goes on 11, and 4.

Bubba still gets 3 actions in the round and Stubby 2, but they are spread
fairly evenly with each other.

In this system it spreads the combat more evenly through the round and it
doesn't invalidate the speed freaks. It just makes them think a little more
than shoot.

*What do you mean I can't kill 5 guards before the mage casts a spell?
That's not fair!!!*

Nor I probably butchered the description and all, but the exacts can be
found here

http://shadowfaq.dumpshock.com/Shad2FAQ.html#C1

It's SR 2nd Ed but still works beautifully for 3e.

Kudo's to whoever wrote it and thanks to Adam J for compiling. This has
saved my sanity in SR for a long while.

Ahrain
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Mon Apr 9 10:35:04 2001
> Nor I probably butchered the description and all, but the exacts can be
> found here
>
> http://shadowfaq.dumpshock.com/Shad2FAQ.html#C1
>
> Kudo's to whoever wrote it and thanks to Adam J for compiling. This has
> saved my sanity in SR for a long while.

I inserted into the FAQ originally because it is the system we finally used
in our campaign (after trying a bunch of stuff) and it worked really well
for us. I'm not sure if our group thought of it or if it was on
rec.games.frp.cyber.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Mon Apr 9 12:45:01 2001
At 10:14 PM 4/6/2001 +0200, Achille Autran wrote:
>Just an idea I had...
>
>SR2 and SR3 intiative systems "stack" the actions either at the end or at
>the beggining of the round. Neither is even remotely realistic. If we had
>to fill a time window (a round) with a given number of actions, it would
>be good to spread them regularly... Unfortunately the SR initiative isn't
>well suited for that. I designed such a system some time ago, but it used
>a table and wasn't very fluid. So the idea is to take the middle ground:
>stack the actions in the middle of the round, by centering the rolled
>initiative score. I don't know if this makes much sense, so let's go to rules:

I did something similar by applying the initiative rules for Champions to
Shadowrun.

Divide the character initiative by 10 (round down) to determine their
Speed. Compare their speed to the following table to determine which
segment(s) of a combat round they get to act on.

Segment
Speed 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1 x
2 x x
3 x x x
4 x x x x
5 x x x x x
6 x x x x x x
7 x x x x x x x
8 x x x x x x x x
9 x x x x x x x x x
10 x x x x x x x x x x
11 x x x x x x x x x x x
12 x x x x x x x x x x x x

The combat round start on Segment 1 and ends on Segment 12. One Segment 1,
anyone with a speed of 12 may act. On Segment 2 anyone with a Speed of
6-12 may act. On segment 3 anyone with a speed of 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12
may act. And so on. Everyone gets an action on Segment 12.

I don't use this for my Shadowrun campaign, but it works great for Champions :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
"Anything I have ever done that ultimately was worthwhile....
initially scared me to death."
-Betty Bender
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Mon Apr 9 23:30:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Graht <davidb@***.100.100.99>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:47 AM
> At 10:14 PM 4/6/2001 +0200, Achille Autran wrote:
> >Just an idea I had...
> >
> >[snip a HERO-like system]

Talk about weird... I was just about to ask if anyone had ever tried a
conversion like this. I'm a HUGE fan of Champions and the HERO System,
so I was looking for a good conversion.

Except for an ultra-rare occurrence, the highest speed should be 4 (And
how many 40+ initiative rolls do you get outside of the Matrix?). I
guess that's cool, though. Most will be in the 1 or 2 range, and that
ends up supporting a system similar to the standard SR2 method where
fast guys (2's and 3's) will go several times before the 1's do anything
at all. Since I'm a fan of that system, it's cool by me, but it just
seems to add more math to the same solution. Granted, there will be
some differences - a 3 will go once, then a 2, then a 3 twice, then the
2 under your system - but it's still pretty close to SR2.

Maybe by dividing by 5 instead of 10, you could get a more balanced
result? I dunno... hmm. Any other thoughts on balancing this out a bit
more?

Yeegads, I can't believe I just said that. I should be saying, "Why
should anyone with a single digit initiative get to go at all?"

Heh.

| Bob Ooton <rbooton@*****.edu>
| aka TopCat, the cyberware advocate
| Member of the Black Hand Demo Team
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: A(nother) new initiative system...
Date: Wed Apr 11 10:20:01 2001
At 10:22 PM 4/9/2001 -0500, Bob Ooton wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Graht <davidb@***.100.100.99>
>Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:47 AM
> > At 10:14 PM 4/6/2001 +0200, Achille Autran wrote:
> > >Just an idea I had...
> > >
> > >[snip a HERO-like system]
>
>Talk about weird... I was just about to ask if anyone had ever tried a
>conversion like this. I'm a HUGE fan of Champions and the HERO System,
>so I was looking for a good conversion.
>
>Except for an ultra-rare occurrence, the highest speed should be 4 (And
>how many 40+ initiative rolls do you get outside of the Matrix?). I
>guess that's cool, though. Most will be in the 1 or 2 range, and that
>ends up supporting a system similar to the standard SR2 method where
>fast guys (2's and 3's) will go several times before the 1's do anything
>at all. Since I'm a fan of that system, it's cool by me, but it just
>seems to add more math to the same solution. Granted, there will be
>some differences - a 3 will go once, then a 2, then a 3 twice, then the
>2 under your system - but it's still pretty close to SR2.
>
>Maybe by dividing by 5 instead of 10, you could get a more balanced
>result? I dunno... hmm. Any other thoughts on balancing this out a bit
>more?

Hmmm... You know, when I originally did this, I think I divided by 5 for
just that reason.

In any case, the nice thing about it from a GM perspective is that you can
put the fear of god in your players when you announce that the NPC is going
on segment 1 <egmg>

>Yeegads, I can't believe I just said that. I should be saying, "Why
>should anyone with a single digit initiative get to go at all?"
>
>Heh.

:)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
"Apparently I'm insane. But I'm one of the happy kinds!"
-Wally

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about A(nother) new initiative system..., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.