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From:	Debbie Giesbrecht <Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.CHIRON.COM>
Subject:	another novice question
Date:	Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:19:28 PST

Message no. 1 Hello,

I was reading through SRII and I was a bit confused about melee
combat. Perhaps you all can shed some light on the situation.

The way that I read it was that intitiative really won't make
any difference to a melee combat between two opponants. Let
me give you an example:

Samurai 1 rolls a 30 on his initiative. Samurai 2 rolls a 12.
Samurai 1 goes before Samurai 2 on 30. If Samuria 1 puts his
dice mostly into defense resistance and Samurai 2 puts his
dice in combat attack, and Samurai 2 gets more successes than
Samurai 1, Samurai 2 hits and does damage.

On 20 Samurai 1 goes again. Theoreticly, the same thing could
happen again. On initiative 12, Samuria 2 goes and shoots
Samuria 1.

The way it is written, both parties get combat actions each time
either of them goes. I know this cannot be correct. It does
not make sense. The guy with the higher initiative should
cream the slow guy. Help me out.

Thanks,

Debbie

Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.chiron.com

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: another novice question
Date:	Wed, 6 Jul 1994 04:33:05 +0930

Message no. 2 [ Example deleted ]
> The way it is written, both parties get combat actions each time
> either of them goes. I know this cannot be correct. It does
> not make sense. The guy with the higher initiative should
> cream the slow guy. Help me out.
>
No, you've pretty much got it the way it's meant to go.
The idea is that, in melee combat, attacking leaves you vulnerable to a
counter-attack. Some of the martial-arts gurus could probably explain it
better than that, but that's the gist.
So, when your chromed street sam attacks that (oh,so innocent-looking)
janitor of Oriental descent (so it's a stereotype. Big deal), he may get 3
or four chances to _force_ an opening, but also has 3 or four chances of
making his own. A skilled (or lucky) opponent can use those opportunities.

To balance it, however, are the Combat Pool dice. Even a moderately
skilled opponent will be able to throw in more dice, thanks to Combat
Pool, than your average SR Black Belt. And, as those dice are refreshed on
your actions only, your fast guy can hit with more Combat Pool dice, and
have more for resisting damage than the slow guy.

So ka?

> Thanks,
>
> Debbie

Null persperation, Debbie.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.

From:	Chris Ryan <chrisr@****.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: another novice question
Date:	Wed, 6 Jul 1994 12:50:48 --1000

Message no. 3 > The way that I read it was that intitiative really won't make
> any difference to a melee combat between two opponants. Let
> me give you an example:
[example deleted]
> The way it is written, both parties get combat actions each time
> either of them goes. I know this cannot be correct. It does
> not make sense. The guy with the higher initiative should
> cream the slow guy. Help me out.

That's the way it stands in the rules and I don't like it either. We
added a house rule that changed things slightly:

If the initiative is greater than the defender's starting initiative,
then the defender can parry only. The extra successes do not allow the
defender to damage the attacker. An example:

Sam1 on 20 melee attacks Sam2 on 12. If Sam1 gets more successes than Sam2,
do damage as normal. If Sam2 gets more successes than Sam1, the attack was
successfully parried and no damage is done.

At initiative 10, they clash again. This time, if Sam2 gets more successes than
Sam1 then a successful counter-attack has occurred - go to damage dealing...

How's that sound?

Chris

Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
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From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: another novice question
Date:	Tue, 5 Jul 1994 21:59:18 -0700

Message no. 4 Good quesiton Debbie. Your right that a character can counterattack any melee
attack made on himslef regardless of his initiative, but you are incorrect in
initiative not mattering. The one thing you missed is the Combat Pool.

Taking two Street Samurais from the SRII rulebook, lets say that Sam A rolls
init of 13 and Sam B rolls 27.

Init 27

Sam B attacks Sam A with is hand Razors. Sam A counterattacks with his.
Sam B rolls 6 skill dice plus 6 Combat Pool Dice. Sam A does likewise.
Net results are unimportant.

Init 17
Sam B attacks again. Since his combat pool refreshed on this phase he rolls
6 skill + 6 combat pool dice. Sam A used 6 dice on init 27 and has not had
his pool refresh (this won't happen until init 13). Thus he rolls 6 skill
plus his 2 remaining Combat Pool dice. As you can see Sam A is at a 4 dice
deficit. Depending upon rolls, this could be the end of the fight.

Init 13
Assuming Sam A survived that last attack, his combat pool refreshes and he
can attack with 6 skill plus 6 combat pool dice. Sam B is left counterattacking
with his 6 skill dice and 2 remaining combat pool dice.

This continues...

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************

From:	Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: another novice question
Date:	Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:12:30 +0100

Message no. 5 > Hello,

Hi

> The way that I read it was that intitiative really won't make
> any difference to a melee combat between two opponants. Let
> me give you an example:
> Samurai 1 rolls a 30 on his initiative. Samurai 2 rolls a 12.
> Samurai 1 goes before Samurai 2 on 30. If Samuria 1 puts his
> dice mostly into defense resistance and Samurai 2 puts his
> dice in combat attack, and Samurai 2 gets more successes than
> Samurai 1, Samurai 2 hits and does damage.
> On 20 Samurai 1 goes again. Theoreticly, the same thing could
> happen again. On initiative 12, Samuria 2 goes and shoots
> Samuria 1.
> The way it is written, both parties get combat actions each time
> either of them goes. I know this cannot be correct. It does
> not make sense. The guy with the higher initiative should
> cream the slow guy. Help me out.

Ok your conclusions are correct, but you forget something, Combat Pool.
As you pointed out melee combat is practically nothing else, but a
constant struggle to get more succeses than your opponent. Combat Pool
plays a very important role there as it gives you the chance to double your
dice. In your example sammie1 attacks at 20 and allocates all his pool
the opponent manages to block and then its the other sammies turn to play.
Sammie2 has a full pool (it just got renewed) while sammie1 just wasted all
of it in an unsuccesfull attack. Sammie1 gets dusted :)
On the other hand a good attack can end the fight a lot quicker....
As you can see there is a lot more to it than just two guys taking turn
bashing each other, its almost a mind game - trying to guess what the
opponent is going to make .....

Hope this helps.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l++ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?

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