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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:47:11 -0400
Hi again :)

I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced Senses.
Shouldn't they have some sort of enhanced sense(s) based upon the type of
animal form? Perhaps some of the enhanced senses will only be available in
animal form, etc., but they should exist, nonetheless.

Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
various animals shapeshifters can be?

Thanks,

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: john p <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:54:11 -0500
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:47:11 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
<<Hi again :)>>

Are you -still- here? :)

<<I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced
Senses. Shouldn't they have some sort of enhanced sense(s) based upon the
type of animal form? Perhaps some of the enhanced senses will only be
available in animal form, etc., but they should exist, nonetheless.>>

You're referring to how Striper's senses are sharper than a human's
(better smell, hearing, etc).

<<Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
various animals shapeshifters can be?>>

Well...

Night Vision
High-freq hearing
enhanced smell


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 3
From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:01:38 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: john p <lobo1@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Sunday, September 07, 1997 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question



>On Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:47:11 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
>writes:
><<Hi again :)>>
>
>Are you -still- here? :)
>
><<I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced
>Senses. Shouldn't they have some sort of enhanced sense(s) based upon the
>type of animal form? Perhaps some of the enhanced senses will only be
>available in animal form, etc., but they should exist, nonetheless.>>
>
>You're referring to how Striper's senses are sharper than a human's
>(better smell, hearing, etc).
>
><<Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
>various animals shapeshifters can be?>>
>
>Well...
>
>Night Vision
>High-freq hearing
>enhanced smell
>
Well, if a shapwshifter can change shape then there's nothing preventing
from say, having an eye in the back of their head?

Geoff

-'That gun ain't ya god, boy, and it sure ain't ya choir. So stop singin'
and start shootin'-
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:57:47 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 23:47/ 6 Sep 97...

> Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
> various animals shapeshifters can be?

Most would have better smell and/or hearing (depending on the animal in
quesiton), and cats something close to low-light vision, perhaps giving
them the equivalent of cybernetic low-light vision rather than the
natural low-light modifiers. After all this isn't in any way magical, but
a cat can see in the dark much better than a human can.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:55:32 -0400
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
> Date: Sunday, September 07, 1997 6:57 AM

> Justin Pinnow said on 23:47/ 6 Sep 97...

> > Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
> > various animals shapeshifters can be?

> Most would have better smell and/or hearing (depending on the animal in
> quesiton), and cats something close to low-light vision, perhaps giving
> them the equivalent of cybernetic low-light vision rather than the
> natural low-light modifiers. After all this isn't in any way magical, but
> a cat can see in the dark much better than a human can.

Hmmm. Maybe I can keep this abstract and simple, yet effective. :) (yeah,
right)

Critters have a Perception rating (the second rating under Intelligence -
the one on the right). Thus, if the creature's Intelligence was 2/4, it
has a Perception of 4. As long as the animal's strongest sense is working,
they get to roll 4 dice. Otherwise, they would roll 2 dice (the number on
the left).

Well, with shifters, I could do the same thing. Just give them an
Intelligence rating with two entries, like for critters. That way, they
roll extra dice for Perception tests, without really getting specific as to
what senses the dice are from, etc.

There are two questions now: should these senses only be available in
animal form (or in the case of my suggested in-between shifting stage,
should they also get it then as well)? And, should some animals still get
low light or thermographic vision modifiers because of their superior
sight? After all, having extra dice doesn't really account for such.
According to the canon rules, it looks like you would still apply the
vision mods, because they don't have low-lite vision, etc.

Although, my simple solution to this (which may or may not be the most
realistic in the world) would be to not apply any TN mods for darkeness to
shifters or normal critters. Why not? Well, I figure, when using
Perception, they are generally using their dominant sense. Thus, if that
sense isn't vision, then darkness wouldn't matter. If it was vision, they
probably have some superior vision to humans anyway. Thus, I could simply
not apply any TN mods for darkness to Perception tests.

Does that work?

Thanks! :)

> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Justin :)
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:58:53 -0400
> > From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.com.au>
> > Date: Sunday, September 07, 1997 3:01 AM

<Snip>

> Well, if a shapwshifter can change shape then there's nothing preventing
> from say, having an eye in the back of their head?

Yes, there is. They are either human or animal (or you may rule, they can
shift to something inbetween). Regardless, since neither the animal nor
human forms have an eye in the back of their head, you can't put one there.

The point is that shifting goes between the standard animal and (mata)human
forms. The shifter isn't creating the animal in his/her image or anything.
He/she has no say so as to what they look like, only what form they can
take.

> Geoff

Justin :)
Message no. 7
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:28:42 -0500
You wrote:
> You're referring to how Striper's senses are sharper than a human's
> (better smell, hearing, etc).

> Well...

> Night Vision
> High-freq hearing
> enhanced smell

And you can add in the fact that their color perceptions are very poor, etc. if
you're going to be accurate. Also, recall that they would be affected more by
intense light, sound, and odors.

losthalo
Message no. 8
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:18:46 +1000
> I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced Senses.
> Shouldn't they have some sort of enhanced sense(s) based upon the type of
> animal form? Perhaps some of the enhanced senses will only be available in
> animal form, etc., but they should exist, nonetheless.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
> various animals shapeshifters can be?

Well you can give them things like low-light vision, and reduce their TN's for
things like smelling and hearing. Maybe give them some form of hearing amp
depending on the animal

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:44:26 EDT
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:55:32 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:

>Hmmm. Maybe I can keep this abstract and simple, yet effective. :)
(yeah,
>right)

[snip abstact and simple rules]

Oh SURE, go and spoil the whole thing by suggesting something that
doesn't require any 'refitting', is logical, simple, concise *and*
playable... you're no fun....

:)

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:44:26 EDT
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:47:11 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>Hi again :)
>
>I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced
Senses.
> Shouldn't they have some sort of enhanced sense(s) based upon the type
of
>animal form? Perhaps some of the enhanced senses will only be available
in
>animal form, etc., but they should exist, nonetheless.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
>various animals shapeshifters can be?

Well, 'smell' could be used for just about all of them... (especially the
wolf and such)
and 'sight' would work pretty well for felines.

~Tim
Message no. 11
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:51:53 -0500
At 06-Sep-97 wrote Justin Pinnow:



>Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
>various animals shapeshifters can be?

Simple, just give the shaper the perception rating from their animal form
like its done for npc critters.

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:30:09 -0500
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:01:38 +1000 Geoffrey Giesemann
<geoffwa@***********.com.au> writes:

>Well, if a shapwshifter can change shape then there's nothing
>preventing
>from say, having an eye in the back of their head?

The shapeshifters of SR have two forms: human and animal. If you can find
an animal (with the exception of some insects) that would have an eye in
the back of its head...



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /s
Message no. 13
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:21:00 GMT
on 06.09.97 vanyel@*******.NET wrote:
v> Hi again :)

Cheerio!

v> I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced Senses.
v> Shouldn't they have some sort of enhanced sense(s) based upon the type of
v> animal form? Perhaps some of the enhanced senses will only be available in
v> animal form, etc., but they should exist, nonetheless.
v>
v> Does anyone have any suggestions for appropriate enhance senses for the
v> various animals shapeshifters can be?

Here's the stuff from back of the Charon sheet:
-Night Vision
-Improved hearing
-Improved smelling
-Improved balance
-Improved tasting

Most of this (except balance) works for most shapers.
I'd give zoom level 2 or 3 and flare comp. to eagle-shapers (my own
creation), IR to snake-shapers (Haven't thought up anything else on
these). Of course, a shaper can also have a sense that's not as good as a
human's.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 14
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:33:09 EDT
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:21:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
writes:
>
>v> I just realized that shapeshifters are missing something: Enhanced
Senses.

<snip>

>Most of this (except balance) works for most shapers.
>I'd give zoom level 2 or 3 and flare comp. to eagle-shapers (my own
>creation), IR to snake-shapers (Haven't thought up anything else on
>these). Of course, a shaper can also have a sense that's not as good
>as a human's.

Alternately, if you can get a hold of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, take
a look at the appropriate animal to see which senses they get. Actually,
I'll give a look-see at the SRComp tonight and try to work something up.
And until then, remember that bears are nearsighted. =)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

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Message no. 15
From: The Phantom phantom023@*******.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:10:39 GMT
I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was wondering
about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or could it
be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Phantom

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Phantom~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A decker with a shotgun beats four aces anyday."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow~~~~~~~~~~~~~

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 16
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 01:04:42 +0100
On 02-Nov-99, The Phantom wrote:

> I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
> shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was wondering
> about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or could
> it be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.
>
I allow metahuman forms, its just gets ugly expensive, costing the cost of
the metahuman in addition to be a shifter.

--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 17
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:00:55 -0500
At 11:10 PM 11/1/99 +0000, The Phantom wrote:
>I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
>shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was wondering
>about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or could
>it be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.

No. The shapeshifter is not half human and half animal. It is a race on
their own. Their "non-animal" form looks like a human (or so) but it's not
because they are part human, they are not human at all. I believe that
some of the descriptions have some, say like wolf, with slightly pointed ears.
In shadowrun shapeshifters are not people who can turn into animals, but
the opposite, animals that can turn into a "human-like" form.



--00DNA

"...connection terminated..."
Message no. 18
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:05:23 EST
In a message dated 11/1/1999 4:51:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mcmanus@******.albany.edu writes:

> No. The shapeshifter is not half human and half animal. It is a race on
> their own. Their "non-animal" form looks like a human (or so) but it's
not
> because they are part human, they are not human at all. I believe that
> some of the descriptions have some, say like wolf, with slightly pointed
> ears.
> In shadowrun shapeshifters are not people who can turn into animals, but
> the opposite, animals that can turn into a "human-like" form.

I have to admit that I dont understand the thinking behind your position,
DNA. If the shapeshifter is an animal that turns into a human like form, why
couldnt the shapeshifter's humanlike form look more like a Troll or dwarf
than a human? I would agree with Barbie's take on it... charge them the
points for the metahuman type as well as the shapeshifter points.

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 19
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:43:52 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Starrngr@***.com."
] I have to admit that I dont understand the thinking behind your position,
] DNA. If the shapeshifter is an animal that turns into a human like
form, why
] couldnt the shapeshifter's humanlike form look more like a Troll or dwarf
] than a human? I would agree with Barbie's take on it... charge them the
] points for the metahuman type as well as the shapeshifter points.

Here's my take on it. The Shapeshifter is a beast that has evolved
to mimic humanity, for some purpose (we'll say survivability). For a
damned long time now, Homo Sapiens Sapiens have been the only costume
in the shop, as it were. I mean, they're even now (2060s) the dominant
form of humanity on the planet, so it's _still_ to the 'shifters'
advantage to mimic them. If time goes by, and Orcs become more
numerous, and magic speeds up the evolutionary process, then maybe
'shifter Orcs will appear. For now though, it's not plausible.
Then there's game balance ("Git up, yuh dead hoss, git up!").

-Boondocker
Message no. 20
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:55:45 -0500
At 08:05 PM 11/1/99 -0500, Starrngr@***.com wrote:
>I have to admit that I dont understand the thinking behind your position,
>DNA. If the shapeshifter is an animal that turns into a human like form, why
>couldnt the shapeshifter's humanlike form look more like a Troll or dwarf
>than a human? I would agree with Barbie's take on it... charge them the
>points for the metahuman type as well as the shapeshifter points.

Well of course I'll state first that you can do whatever you want...if you
want to have shapeshifters who can look like trolls or look like dwarves go
ahead...

My thinking behind my position comes from page 42 of the Critters book or
page 230 SR2 book.
It says and yes I admit it is open to some interpretation that they "have
the innate magical ability to assume a human form, which typically retains
vestiges of the creature's bestial nature."
They didn't say metahuman form...which is a very weak point I admit. And
of course all of the FASA published artwork shows a human appearance. But
more from that, the flavor of the text, when I read it, makes me assume
that they do mean, a human like form, and not any meta-human like form.
I play that each shapeshifter's race looks different, as it describes in
the book. Bear's humanoid form is bigger hairy, big shoulder's etc, fox's
form has a tail, slender build, pointed ears, yadda yadda yadda. But I
wouldn't play that a PC could choose.

First point I wanted to express is that shapeshifters in shadowrun are not
like the were-creatures in other games. They are not a human or other
metahuman that gets turned into part human part animal. They are a
completely separate race. You agree with that?

OK, so if they are a completely separate race...that means they don't have
the same genes as humans...so why would they have some gene that would make
some of them look like a human and some of them look like a dwarf or some
of them look like a troll? If a gm said that bear's human form was more
ork or more troll like than human like...I don't think that's a
problem. Would I give them the added ork or troll bonuses...no, because
they're not part troll or part ork, they get the bonuses that it says bear
gets in human form because that's what they are...a bear in human form.

So yes, the form can look a little different...I personally wouldn't just
say he/she looks just like a troll or just like an elf or anything. My
shapeshifters all look different...most can pass as human with no problems,
but if you look closely, the ears and other things, eyes for the tiger
shapeshifter etc...point that the person is not just some human or metahuman.

But of course...it's your game...and if you want to play it different go
ahead. (:
But that's my thinking on my position though, hope it's clearer.
(:


--00DNA

"...connection terminated..."
Message no. 21
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:25:46 -0500
00DNA writeth:
> Well of course I'll state first that you can do whatever you
> want...if you
> want to have shapeshifters who can look like trolls or look like
> dwarves go
> ahead..

To me it comes down to one issue. Do they get the attribute bonuses or not?
If not, then there is no additional character development cost and the looks
are a matter of storyline and feel. If they get attribute changes based on
race then they have to pay for them like any other metahuman. A tiger
shifter with a trolls innate strength would be powerful indeed, so there
should be an increase of cost. But if the strength bonus only bases itself
of the standard human strength and the person just looks more troll like in
human form then there is no cost. It's really about the numbers in this
instance.

Plus I like the proposed idea that standard human is the most common visage,
so thus like many creatures in nature they mimic more (or most) common forms
of the creatures they hunt. Plus 5000+ years of only having humans around
prior to the 6th world could definitely have some justifiable effect.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:07:09 EST
In a message dated 11/1/1999 6:12:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
phantom023@*******.com writes:

> I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
> shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was wondering
> about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or could
it
> be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all help.

By the book, it doesn't say this is possible. However, it could be possible
I suppose. If the points were spent (OUCH on the skill points later on down
the road), sure, why not (shrug).

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 23
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:23:25 -0600
:I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
:shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was wondering
:about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or could it
:be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.

It has to be human. Don't ask me why, but that's what Rob said when I
asked the same question. It makes some sense that shapeshifters would shift
to the "base stock", and not into the form of another awakend creature, I
guess.
Myself, I think it would be cool if they could be metas, but it would be
kinda maunchy to just stack up the modifiers. I don't think a bear / troll
should get +7 body in "human" form, for example! Plus, would the mental
modifiers of the metatype apply while in animal form? If not, would your
mental stats change when you shifted?

Mongoose
Message no. 24
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:40:32 -0600
:I have to admit that I dont understand the thinking behind your position,
:DNA. If the shapeshifter is an animal that turns into a human like form,
why
:couldnt the shapeshifter's humanlike form look more like a Troll or dwarf
:than a human? I would agree with Barbie's take on it... charge them the
:points for the metahuman type as well as the shapeshifter points.


Yea, but there is still the fact that shapeshifter human forms have
thier OWN set of racial modifiers. That does make them thier own race, neh?

Mongoose
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:38:15 +0100
According to The Phantom, at 23:10 on 1 Nov 99, the word on the street
was...

> I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
> shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was wondering
> about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or could it
> be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.

Shapeshifters change into _humans_ from their animal form, not into any
other species of metahuman.

Don't ask me why this is the case, since I didn't make it up :)

If you want shapeshifters that change into another kind of metahuman, I
don't think there's much to stop you from adding them to your campaign,
though if I were you I'd make clear that they're even rarer than normal
shapeshifters, not to mention I'd charge the player heavily for such a
character.

This would work best with the points-based system, BTW, since you have to
assign a Race priority for shapeshifters, therefore a second Race priority
is not really an option. It could be done by adding some priority levels
to the Race column, for instance like this:

Race
A: Elf/Troll shapeshifter
B: Dwarf/Ork shapeshifter
C: Human shapeshifter, Elf/Troll
D: Dwarf/Ork
E: Human

However, this does get in the way of the required Resource priority, and
you'll never find an elf/troll shapeshifter who's also a full magician or
an adept/aspected magician dwarf/ork shapeshifter...

--
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"Remember that all the items in the equipment lists are obviously
not available anywhere." --Gemini RPG, p. 100
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Message no. 26
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:20:34 +0100
On 02-Nov-99, Scott W wrote:

> Here's my take on it. The Shapeshifter is a beast that has evolved
> to mimic humanity, for some purpose (we'll say survivability). For a
> damned long time now, Homo Sapiens Sapiens have been the only costume
> in the shop, as it were. I mean, they're even now (2060s) the dominant
> form of humanity on the planet, so it's _still_ to the 'shifters'
> advantage to mimic them.

The same reasoning could be used in favor of metahuman shifters, because, a
shifter is a magical creature which can only exists as shifter during high
mana times ... the last mana time was a bit, but it had elfs, trolls and so
on, in the time between them, no elfs, no trools, but no shifters ..
The argument can be used both ways.

--
Barbie

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Message no. 27
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:57:40 -0800
On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:10:39 GMT "The Phantom" <phantom023@*******.com>
writes:
> I am starting a new SR campaign, and one player would like to be a
> shapeshifter. I have no problems with that, but the player was
wondering
> about whether the human form of a shapeshifter had to be human, or
could it
> be a metahuman. LIke say a bear/troll.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all help.

I think it's <animal>/Human. Generally, in SR, when references are made
to "human" it means human as opposed to metahuman. In the Critters book,
it does refer to humanoid forms, but I think that is just a reference to
the fact that the shapeshifters retain bestial aspects in their _human_
form. However, I would allow the PC to LOOK like any metahuman race, if
appropriate (ie, a Troll/Bear, but not a Troll/Fox).

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 28
From: Daniel Brace dbrace@**********.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:29:07 -0500
Phantom,
Considering the wonderful discussion your player has brought to list, my
professional opinion is that you should let this joyful and enlightened soul
play whatever wanted and reward said player with an extra...say 100
character points. That sounds just skippy to me...in my professional
opinion that is. :)

BlackWidow-
"There's no business, like Shadow business,
it's the only business we know."
-For Phantom
Message no. 29
From: Daniel Brace dbrace@**********.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:38:42 -0500
>However, I would allow the PC to LOOK like any metahuman race, if
>appropriate (ie, a Troll/Bear, but not a Troll/Fox).
>D. Ghost

So what you're saying is, trying to make Bun Bun is out of the question?
No, Troll/Rabbit? Imagine the lucky rabbit's foot on that one.

BlackWidow-
"There's no business, like Shadow business,
it's the only business we know."
-For Phantom
Message no. 30
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:01:22 -0500
Daniel Brace wrote:

> >However, I would allow the PC to LOOK like any metahuman race, if
> >appropriate (ie, a Troll/Bear, but not a Troll/Fox).
> >D. Ghost
>
> So what you're saying is, trying to make Bun Bun is out of the question?
> No, Troll/Rabbit? Imagine the lucky rabbit's foot on that one.
>

Hah! Bun-bun the shapeshifter! That's a very scary thought. Of course, in
troll form, he'd need a bigger switchblade...

Wildfire
Message no. 31
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Another Shapeshifter Question
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:19:37 EST
In a message dated 11/2/1999 4:22:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> It has to be human. Don't ask me why, but that's what Rob said when I
> asked the same question. It makes some sense that shapeshifters would
shift
> to the "base stock", and not into the form of another awakend creature, I
> guess.

Well I'm gonna ask you why anyway. WHY?!? If you really want to go into the
"theory" that has been presented as to why shapeshifters have taken
"human"
as their primary guise, you could easily argue that a shapeshifter could
develop a "metahuman" form as well (what an interesting idea for a metatalent
for shaper magical types).

No offense, but the reason that you've give, IMO, is simply not enough.

> Myself, I think it would be cool if they could be metas, but it would
be
> kinda maunchy to just stack up the modifiers. I don't think a bear / troll
> should get +7 body in "human" form, for example! Plus, would the mental
> modifiers of the metatype apply while in animal form? If not, would your
> mental stats change when you shifted?

Personally, the "Mental Stats" would be whatever the "Mental
Attributes"
would be. If that means that a shaper/troll (following on your example) has
his/her "troll form" mentals modified, then the *mind*, is the *mind*.

However, the flipside of the argument is that if the form that is be presumed
is merely "mimicry" of the individual/metatypes, then the mind of the shaper
is whatever those are. In order to stipulate to various levels of game
balance, unless it was some new metatalent along the lines of the Free Spirit
power "Human Form", I'd make the character modify his/her mentals as well as
the physicals.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

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