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Message no. 1
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:24:42 -0600
Ok I have had a couple players do things with their new characters that
makes me wonder if I am missing something.

They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not sure
where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these be
their own skills or would there be an active skill they would specialize under?

I understand they could have them under knowledge but then it would be more
like they have knowledge of how to do disguises or IDs but they can not do
it themselves. Or am I just lost with this Knowledge skill stuff?

Ed

- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/
Message no. 2
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:48:31 EST
In a message dated 11/8/1998 12:23:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
equine@***********.COM writes:

>
> They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not sure
> where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these be
> their own skills or would there be an active skill they would specialize
> under?

Hmmmm...you do have a sideways thinking bunch, don't you.... ;)

> I understand they could have them under knowledge but then it would be more
> like they have knowledge of how to do disguises or IDs but they can not do
> it themselves. Or am I just lost with this Knowledge skill stuff?

You have the basic idea down pretty good. In fact, IF they had the active
skills to actually do these things, they could use their knowledge skills as
complimentary (aka; potential additional successes) towards the actual making
of such.

Sadly, FASA didn't actually put Disguise Techniques down anywhere.
Personally, I would have made it a Technical Skill, along the lines of
Biotech, Demolitions (at least that suggest made it through I hope), or
Electronics. That actual "disguising" of oneself is a functional activity,
while the understanding of it's finer detailings and the like is where the
"Knowledge Skill" would step into play.

ID Manufacturing is something that has, almost always, been left into the
hands of the Social Skill -AND- Technical skill sets with the game group here.
Our reasoning for this is simply because it would take a Social Services type
to actually know and perform the functions of identification verification and
codification, while it would take the decker to actually implant that "Fake
SIN" into the system itself.

Get ready, the group here has done something along the lines of this kind of
nastiness. BTL Production (Street Knowledge), Psychotropics Programming
(Computers), and Psychology (Academic Knowledge) have all been brought into
play recently just to make -one- program.

-K
Message no. 3
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:02:36 -0600
:Ok I have had a couple players do things with their new characters that
:makes me wonder if I am missing something.
:
:They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not sure
:where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these be
:their own skills or would there be an active skill they would specialize
under?

By "They put skills in knowledge", you mean the players, not FASA,
correct? Yes, those sound like special active skills to me.
The "Stealth" skill, as described in SR3 "also covers camoflague and
diguises".
ID manufacturing is beyond any one persons means, unless you just mean
non-computer linked passes (which are almost non-existant). Such forged
papers have all the effect of Bobirino's notes from his mom.

:I understand they could have them under knowledge but then it would be
more
:like they have knowledge of how to do disguises or IDs but they can not
do
:it themselves. Or am I just lost with this Knowledge skill stuff?


No, it sounds like your players are mis-applying their knowledge
skills, or hoping for a bit much. Your impression is correct; their
knowledge would represent "background knowledge"; all active skill have a
correlating knowledge background. The "Background Knowledge" section
covers this. IMO, it lets you figure out how others would use the skill,
not do those tasks.

Mongoose
Message no. 4
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:46:34 -0600
> Ok I have had a couple players do things with their new characters that
> makes me wonder if I am missing something.

Yeah...possible muchkinism.

> They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not sure
> where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these be
> their own skills or would there be an active skill they would
> specialize under?

If they want them in knowledge, I don't see that they're going to have a lot
of information. In fact, I think that a 'disguise' skill under knowledge is
going to be better at _spotting_ disguises, rather than _using_ disguises.
I'd say that this is an _extremely_ specialized skill, and is going to be
beneficial as part of an actual Active disguise skill only as a
Complimentary skill (if that).

ID Manufacturing... If you read the various rules that have been given,
you'll understand that this is no easy task...and certainly not within the
capabilities of on 'runner team. This covers a broad base of skills and
resources, and should be the focus of someone who ONLY does this kind of
thing (or group of people). Besides, for simple game balance considerations,
I'd say this is way too powerful for players to have.

> I understand they could have them under knowledge but then it
> would be more
> like they have knowledge of how to do disguises or IDs but they can not do
> it themselves. Or am I just lost with this Knowledge skill stuff?

Yes, skills can be complicated, and up to various interpretations...but I
think your players are just trying to railroad you. In other words, I think
they're trying to use their numerous Knowledge skills in a way that they
were never intended. I'd say to advise them that if they want to use them
like this, their most likely in-game usefulness will involve them being used
as a Complimentary skill. Review with them the difference between *Active*
and *Knowledge* skills. (You may even want to go over Build/Repair skills
too).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 5
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:03:02 +0000
> Ok I have had a couple players do things with their new characters that
> makes me wonder if I am missing something.
>
> They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not sure
> where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these be
> their own skills or would there be an active skill they would specialize under?

As Keith mentioned, ID manufacturing would be a collection of skills
(computer, electronics B/R, electronics, etiquette street + corp, and
a number of required contacts, as well as an electronics facility and
a few other expensive gadgets.

> I understand they could have them under knowledge but then it would be more
> like they have knowledge of how to do disguises or IDs but they can not do
> it themselves. Or am I just lost with this Knowledge skill stuff?

Knowledge skills is fairly diverse, and not useless, but they
are seldom skills that allow you to DO something, but rather know
someone. A disguise skill, as a knowledge skill, would include the
historic perspective of disguises, different techniques used
throughout the centuries, the possible harmful skin conditions of
using creosote to color your hair, stuff like that, and (in)famous
chameleons. It's not much more useful for actually making a disguise
than car trivia is for making a car. Some are more directly helpful,
even vital - ignorance can kill. A knowledge skill of, say, yakuza
operations, would be useful in IDENTIFIYING if one was going on
somewhere (knows telltale signs, etcetera) but it would be
fairly useless for actually making such an opearation without
leadership and etiquette skill.

All these skills can HELP, but that's in background info, not
practical application of skills. Same way with a lot of other info. I
know the basic idea behind a nuke, but I can' t make one even if I
had the gear and the plutonium necessary.

The difference is, perhaps, best described with magical skills as
background skills. Anyone that can't do magic has magical skills as a
BG skill, anyone that can, has them as active skills.
(P.90, IIRC).

Does that help any?

Regards,

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:14:23 -0600
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:48:31 EST K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 11/8/1998 12:23:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>equine@***********.COM writes:

>> They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not
sure
>> where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these
be
>> their own skills or would there be an active skill they would
specialize
>> under?

>Hmmmm...you do have a sideways thinking bunch, don't you.... ;)

>> I understand they could have them under knowledge but then it would
be more
>> like they have knowledge of how to do disguises or IDs but they can
not do
>> it themselves. Or am I just lost with this Knowledge skill stuff?

>You have the basic idea down pretty good. In fact, IF they had the
active
>skills to actually do these things, they could use their knowledge
skills as
>complimentary (aka; potential additional successes) towards the actual
making
>of such.

BUT, the Physics knowledge let's you solve physics problems, right? So
at what point does the ability to use a skill to accomplish a goal (Solve
physics problem, shoot the other guy, manufacture false ID, etc) become
an active skill instead of a knowledge skill?

>Sadly, FASA didn't actually put Disguise Techniques down anywhere.

I thought someone said it was included under Stealth...?

>Personally, I would have made it a Technical Skill, along the lines of
>Biotech, Demolitions (at least that suggest made it through I hope), or
>Electronics. That actual "disguising" of oneself is a functional
activity,
>while the understanding of it's finer detailings and the like is where
the
>"Knowledge Skill" would step into play.

I would say that disuise techniques and ID Manufacturing could be
knowledge skills and that they would be complimentary to Stealth and
Computers, respectively, when attempted the appropriate tasks. ID
Manufacturing could also be complimentary to Negotiation (Fast Talking)
in certain situations.

>ID Manufacturing is something that has, almost always, been left into
the
>hands of the Social Skill -AND- Technical skill sets with the game group
here.
>Our reasoning for this is simply because it would take a Social Services
type
>to actually know and perform the functions of identification
verification and
>codification, while it would take the decker to actually implant that
"Fake
>SIN" into the system itself.

Uhm, K? Why would Social Services types only have social skills? This
seems to be the basis for your argument for putting ID Manufacturing
under Social Skills. But why? Proper ettiquette won't get you the
proper false ID but it would help you pull it off (ie, USE the false
ID.). I mean do you really think the people cranking out those false IDs
are going to be exceptionally charismatic (Remember, Charisma is the
linked attribute for Social Skills.)? In my opinion, ID manufacturing is
more akin to Tactics (Out-think those ID checks) than to Shmoozing. :)

>Get ready, the group here has done something along the lines of this
kind of
>nastiness. BTL Production (Street Knowledge), Psychotropics Programming
>(Computers), and Psychology (Academic Knowledge) have all been brought
into
>play recently just to make -one- program.

Ooo! Ooo! Share! :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 7
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:04:50 -0600
At 01:02 PM 11/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
> By "They put skills in knowledge", you mean the players, not FASA,
>correct? Yes, those sound like special active skills to me.

Yes, I meant the players.


> The "Stealth" skill, as described in SR3 "also covers camoflague
and
>diguises".

I saw that too and was wondering if one should specialize in Disguise under
stealth. Stealth just seems to broad of a skill to put disguise in there
somewhere.


> ID manufacturing is beyond any one persons means, unless you just mean
>non-computer linked passes (which are almost non-existant). Such forged
>papers have all the effect of Bobirino's notes from his mom.

The ID thing is from a decker character. Something tells me he wants it
for fake SINs and forged credsticks. I need to find out...it is starting
to worry me. :)

Thanks to everyone for the quick responses!

Ed
- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:06:09 -0600
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:04:50 -0600 Ed <equine@***********.COM> writes:
>At 01:02 PM 11/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
<SNIP>
>> ID manufacturing is beyond any one persons means, unless you just
mean
>>non-computer linked passes (which are almost non-existant). Such
forged
>>papers have all the effect of Bobirino's notes from his mom.

>The ID thing is from a decker character. Something tells me he wants it
>for fake SINs and forged credsticks. I need to find out...it is
starting
>to worry me. :)

You might want to check out the Underworld Sourcebook, then. It has a
little bit about ID forging that abounts to something like the best lone
deckers MIGHT forge a credstick good enough to spoof a rating 3 checker.

>Thanks to everyone for the quick responses!

No problem. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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Message no. 9
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:47:18 -0600
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:04:50 -0600 Ed <equine@***********.COM> writes:
> >The ID thing is from a decker character. Something tells me he wants it
> >for fake SINs and forged credsticks. I need to find out...it is
> >starting to worry me. :)
> You might want to check out the Underworld Sourcebook, then. It has a
> little bit about ID forging that abounts to something like the best lone
> deckers MIGHT forge a credstick good enough to spoof a rating 3 checker.

I havent read the Underworld Sourcebook(or the other sourcebooks that talk
about false IDs like NAGRL) recently but this is my thoughts on how to to
use the ID forging knowledge skill to do SINs and Credsticks.

1) Remember that SINs and Credsticks are cross refrenced in a LOT of
places. To make up anything but the most basic rating 1 or 2 version they
are going to start having to make entries in a lot of those different
databases. This is not something you can do with a single skill roll.

2) Keep ID forging as a knowledge skill. But you use it to roll to see
how successful the decker is at figuring out WHICH databases he needs to
put entries in, and how to keep it all concistant or in-consistent enough
to be believable. A record that is perfectly clean is just as suspicious
as a very odd one could be since everyone will probably have a mistake or
two in there records somewhere.

3) THEN make him roleplay out ALL the decking runs needed to make the
false entries that he decided on when he made his knowledge skill roll.
While some might be in fairly easy systems, the types of databases checked
by higher rating readers would be in more difficult computers to crack.
For Example, if your if your ID says your where a UCAS citizen but now
work for Fuchi you better have cracked the UCAS Census, the UCAS social
security system, the UCAS IRS, the Fuchi Corprate Payroll list, the Fuchi
Employment Records, mabey even the Fuchi Telephone/Matri address book.
If he gets caught making just one of the data entries he might have to
start ALL over again with a new ID. The system deckers might put an alert
on someone entering the personal Data he was trying to forge so when John
Smith of 1256 Westchester Dr. is ever added again the deckers go and check
it out...

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 10
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:17:17 EST
In a message dated 11/8/1998 1:56:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
xaos@*****.NET writes:

>
> ID Manufacturing... If you read the various rules that have been given,
> you'll understand that this is no easy task...and certainly not within the
> capabilities of on 'runner team. This covers a broad base of skills and
> resources, and should be the focus of someone who ONLY does this kind of
> thing (or group of people). Besides, for simple game balance
considerations,
> I'd say this is way too powerful for players to have.

Okay Goth, why don't you swing that past me again. This is way beyond the
scope of on(e) (did I get that right, you lost a letter I think) runner team?
Oh come on, technically this isn't THAT hard.

It involves pulling an ID heist of some form, reading the format of the ID,
then reinserting a new series collections of information into a Database.

AKA 1 (ONE) Decker worth his/her/its(?) salt...

-K
Message no. 11
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:40:02 -0600
At 05:06 PM 11/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>You might want to check out the Underworld Sourcebook, then. It has a
>little bit about ID forging that abounts to something like the best lone
>deckers MIGHT forge a credstick good enough to spoof a rating 3 checker.

Ahh...got that book when I ordered S3 from FASA. I have not had a chance
to go through it though. I guess I should flip through it just to see what
is in it.

Ed


- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/
Message no. 12
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:30:53 -0600
> Okay Goth, why don't you swing that past me again.

Hmm...typically only people that know me personally call me by my last name.
(Not that I particularly care...it just surprised me for some reason).

> This is way beyond the
> scope of on(e) (did I get that right, you lost a letter I think)
> runner team?
> Oh come on, technically this isn't THAT hard.

Quoth NAGRL (and others...Denver Sourcebook, and Sprawl Sites at least):
"Forging a credstick is a difficult task. Though the stick itself may be
easy enough to rig, fabricating the background identification files that
make a credstick legitimate requires considerable effort." Later...
"...instantly cross-referenced and double-verified through a dozen or more
channels". Further..."...and so falsifying an identity involves an
incredible amount of electronic manipulation." And.."Only a [well-connected]
expert [...] possesses the resources to pull off a scam of these
proportions. Entire shadowy organizations exist solely for the purpose of
creating false identities and credsticks."

> AKA 1 (ONE) Decker worth his/her/its(?) salt...

Fortunately, I do not have an overinflated view of the capabilities of an
individual Hacker/Decker. _Despite_ what Hollywood might have to say about
the matter.

I based my statements upon the rules presented in a number of SR books, and
not based upon the individual judgements of an individual GM in his
individual campaign. As always, the GM has the discretion to do as he
chooses.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

Oh, and thank you for the non-relevant typographical correction. I shall
endeavor to maintain my usual high standards for spelling and typing in the
future.
Message no. 13
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:46:07 -0600
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:47:18 -0600 The Bookworm
<Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU> writes:
>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:04:50 -0600 Ed <equine@***********.COM> writes:
>> >The ID thing is from a decker character. Something tells me he wants
it
>> >for fake SINs and forged credsticks. I need to find out...it is
>> >starting to worry me. :)
>> You might want to check out the Underworld Sourcebook, then. It has a
>> little bit about ID forging that abounts to something like the best
lone
>> deckers MIGHT forge a credstick good enough to spoof a rating 3
checker.

>I havent read the Underworld Sourcebook(or the other sourcebooks that
talk
>about false IDs like NAGRL) recently but this is my thoughts on how to
to
>use the ID forging knowledge skill to do SINs and Credsticks.
>
>1) Remember that SINs and Credsticks are cross refrenced in a LOT of
>places. To make up anything but the most basic rating 1 or 2 version
they
>are going to start having to make entries in a lot of those different
>databases. This is not something you can do with a single skill roll.

According to NAGtRL (Which you haven't read. :), Credstick checks don't
crossreference databases and what not until level 4.
Rating 1 asks for a passcode and that's it but only handles up to $5,000.
Ratings 2 & 3 can accept passcodes & fingerprints and handles up to $20k.
Ratings 1-3 are meant for instaneous verification.
Ratings 4&5 also accept voiceprint identification, takes 1D6 minutes, and
requires grid access (ie, they cross-reference dtatabases looking for
inconsistencies) but can handle up to $200k.
Rating 6 and up just get worse/better (depending on your POV)

Note for the nitpickers: by $ I mean nuyen, but the nuyen ASCII charcter
(#157) can sometimes screw up the display of the message. :P

Also, this is the system for certified credsticks. However, I think the
same can be used for any kind of ID (For example, there are ways to test
a Fake Driver's License, and a good forgery will stand up until someone
checks records. So consider a Fake ID as [up to] rating 3 forgery.).

>2) Keep ID forging as a knowledge skill. But you use it to roll to see
>how successful the decker is at figuring out WHICH databases he needs to
>put entries in, and how to keep it all concistant or in-consistent
enough
>to be believable. A record that is perfectly clean is just as
suspicious
>as a very odd one could be since everyone will probably have a mistake
or
>two in there records somewhere.

That's why (according to the Underworld Sourcebook) an ORGANIZATION is
required for good (ie, rating 4+) forgeries.

<SNIP>

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 14
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:52:26 -0600
On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:29:35 EST K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>To be honest, this is a VERY long story. I'll try and get the gist of
it down
>here though. The party has been hired by someone looking to require
their
>assets (stolen right out from underneath their snouts no less). Many of
these
>people we have figured are under the influence of some kind of
>Psychotropics/BTL programming setup. As in, "here, play this, it's a
good
>buzz.....<plays chip>....good, now then, do what I say."
>
>What we are -trying- to do is come up with a "Reverse-BTL" or
"Neutralize-
>BTL". Something that will at the very least cause a pandemia or
euphoric
>state in a given subject. We're cooking the program into chips, and
then
>using them in Dedicated chipsets/simplayers that are sticky, so as to be
>quick-slapped onto a subject's forehead, let the program run (hopefully
doing
>-something- useful) while we continue on the restraining/reclaiming
mission.
<SNIP>
>-K (who as 'Padre' watched as we floated freebie for 72+ hours until
help
>arrived)

I can just see that ... Padre slaps hand to subject's forehead, "You are
healed!", and walks off to someone else while reaching for another
slappatch ...
:)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 15
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:12:43 -0600
:BUT, the Physics knowledge let's you solve physics problems, right? So
:at what point does the ability to use a skill to accomplish a goal (Solve
:physics problem, shoot the other guy, manufacture false ID, etc) become
:an active skill instead of a knowledge skill?

I'd say knowledge skills tell you HOW to do something, but doing it
takes an active skill, UNLESS knowing how is the same as doing (reading,
math, etc).


:>Sadly, FASA didn't actually put Disguise Techniques down anywhere.
:
:I thought someone said it was included under Stealth...?

I did, and yes, it is explicitely "included" in stealth, in SR3.
What that means is unclear, since no rules for use of disguises is given.

Mongoose
Message no. 16
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:28:11 -0600
:> The "Stealth" skill, as described in SR3 "also covers camoflague
and
:>diguises".
:
:I saw that too and was wondering if one should specialize in Disguise
under
:stealth. Stealth just seems to broad of a skill to put disguise in there
:somewhere.

Siealth; the new "firearms." :-)
Yes, stealth seems broad. You would not have to specialize, as having
the general skill covers all specializations.
You can run it any way you want since, as i mentioned in my previous
post, there are zilch rules as to the use of disguises (aside from a
"mask" spell). Why it would be linked to quickness also boggles me,
unless you are imitating another's movements.
I'd have really liked some rules for "Mission Impossible" type
disguise equipment; face molding kits, ruthenium wigs, etc. (and yes, Iv'e
seen that on the web).
Assume that the most basic aspect of stealth (disguise) covers is the
abilty to blend into a crowd and not look out of place.


:> ID manufacturing is beyond any one persons means, unless you just
mean
:>non-computer linked passes (which are almost non-existant). Such forged
:>papers have all the effect of Bobirino's notes from his mom.
:
:The ID thing is from a decker character. Something tells me he wants it
:for fake SINs and forged credsticks. I need to find out...it is starting
:to worry me. :)

Since those are the only really useful ID's in SR, that seems likely.
SR3 has rules for buying fake ID, and explains why it is beyond any
character's means to make one.
What MIGHT be possible (and nearly as useful, if not more so) is to
pass yourself off as the valid owner of a "found" credstic; that would
require getting the proper info (usually a passcode, voice sample, retinal
scan, and / or thumbprint- DNA scans for ultrasecure transactions). SR3
DOES have gear and rules for faking most of those things.


Mongoose
Message no. 17
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:29:28 -0600
> Since those are the only really useful ID's in SR, that seems likely.
> SR3 has rules for buying fake ID, and explains why it is beyond any
> character's means to make one.

Whoah... and here I wasted all that time finding quotes for K. SR3 p239.

Sorry K, you're going to need to come up with a MUCH better explanation for
how ONE decker can start forging credsticks.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 18
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:26:23 GMT
D.Ghost wrote:
>According to NAGtRL (Which you haven't read. :), Credstick checks don't
>crossreference databases and what not until level 4.
>Rating 1 asks for a passcode and that's it but only handles up to $5,000.
>Ratings 2 & 3 can accept passcodes & fingerprints and handles up to $20k.
>Ratings 1-3 are meant for instaneous verification.
>Ratings 4&5 also accept voiceprint identification, takes 1D6 minutes, and
>requires grid access (ie, they cross-reference dtatabases looking for
>inconsistencies) but can handle up to $200k.
>Rating 6 and up just get worse/better (depending on your POV)

I seem to recall remember something like this.

Anyone else that thinks this looks like the credstick verifyer rather than
the forged credstick's rating?

(Unless this also is the rating of check the credstick CAN fool, but then
that would be a test more like 'if forgery's rating is less than verifyer,
it is recognized as fake' rather than an opposed test.).

>That's why (according to the Underworld Sourcebook) an ORGANIZATION is
>required for good (ie, rating 4+) forgeries.

>Also, this is the system for certified credsticks. However, I think the
>same can be used for any kind of ID (For example, there are ways to test
>a Fake Driver's License, and a good forgery will stand up until someone
>checks records. So consider a Fake ID as [up to] rating 3 forgery.).

Hm... both is implied here, apparently. But from that logic, it would be a
test more like 'if forgery's rating is less than verifyer, it is recognized as
fake' rather than an opposed test.

I think they've clarified it a bit in SR3 (there's a lot more info on
credsticks there, IIRC) but without the book here I'm not quoting it,
and I don't remember what it says.. anyone do a check if there's something of
interest?

Incidentally, DNB (Norwegian Bank) is planning to start using retinal scans
for automated bank terminals next year or so. Personally I'd prefer that the
thieves do not require body parts from me to use my bank card, but okay...
(Apparently, this is not unique for that bank, but a common upgrading
all over the world. WHEN it will be finalized is unknown, but fairly soon seems
reasonable.).

Regards,
Fade

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 19
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:47:58 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 09 November 1998 03:21
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question


>D.Ghost wrote:
>>According to NAGtRL (Which you haven't read. :), Credstick checks
don't
>>crossreference databases and what not until level 4.
>>Rating 1 asks for a passcode and that's it but only handles up to
$5,000.
>>Ratings 2 & 3 can accept passcodes & fingerprints and handles up to
$20k.
>>Ratings 1-3 are meant for instaneous verification.
>>Ratings 4&5 also accept voiceprint identification, takes 1D6
minutes, and
>>requires grid access (ie, they cross-reference dtatabases looking
for
>>inconsistencies) but can handle up to $200k.
>>Rating 6 and up just get worse/better (depending on your POV)
>
>I seem to recall remember something like this.
>
>Anyone else that thinks this looks like the credstick verifyer rather
than
>the forged credstick's rating?
>
>(Unless this also is the rating of check the credstick CAN fool, but
then
>that would be a test more like 'if forgery's rating is less than
verifyer,
>it is recognized as fake' rather than an opposed test.).
>
>>That's why (according to the Underworld Sourcebook) an ORGANIZATION
is
>>required for good (ie, rating 4+) forgeries.


Agree that the quoted table looks like the one for verifiers. "require
grid access"
seems to give it away. Not many sticks can plug straight into the grid
:)

So lets compromise and say that a single indvidual can probably do all
the work it requires
to make a reasoanble fake ID or 'stick, but that it requires alot
more work and the talents
of several people with different skills and resources to make very
good to airtight fakes.

I wouldnt discount the individuals ability to make a good (rating 4+)
ID though. The problem is that
it would require a massive investment in thime and resources, making
economically unviable.
Inversely, an organsation may also churn out low rating "cheapies" to
keep the cash flowing.

¥0.02 from me
BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e
Message no. 20
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:02:02 EST
In a message dated 11/9/1998 2:59:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

>
> I can just see that ... Padre slaps hand to subject's forehead, "You are
> healed!", and walks off to someone else while reaching for another
> slappatch ...
> :)
>
Well, that was kind of the image work we were hoping for. Sadly, we were
getting our hoops kicked far too heavily to really enjoy -that- little tidbit
of comedy for long :)

-K
Message no. 21
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:20:05 EST
In a message dated 11/9/1998 4:04:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
xaos@*****.NET writes:

>
> Whoah... and here I wasted all that time finding quotes for K. SR3 p239.
>
> Sorry K, you're going to need to come up with a MUCH better explanation for
> how ONE decker can start forging credsticks.
>
Will read, and we'll see. Please note, I know I was unclear on this topic,
but in our games, the Decker is responsible for all of that information and/or
details. I did like the mentioning that sticks up to rating 3 (IIRC) could
probably be pulled off relatively quickly, as they don't require as much
detail.

-K
Message no. 22
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Skill Question
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:57:33 EST
In a message dated 11/8/98 12:24:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
equine@***********.COM writes:

> Ok I have had a couple players do things with their new characters that
> makes me wonder if I am missing something.
>
> They put skills in knowledge that should be in active but I am not sure
> where. Like disguise techniques...or ID Manufacturing. Should these be
> their own skills or would there be an active skill they would specialize
> under?

Okay, for Disguise and Fake-ID Manufacturing, I would leave them both as
Knowledge skills. Sure in a way having a Disguise is somewhat physical in
nature, but I would have the physical nature of a Disguise as being Acting,
which I would lob into the Active skills category.

As for Fake-ID Manufacturing, I would see this skill acting as a Complimentary
skill rather well. Why? I see most fake id's as being an over-powered-
information-overdosed Validate program which is sitting inside a dumb frame
trying to fake out the system, which means that Computers would be the primary
skill for making fake id's of this type.

-Herc

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