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From:	Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:01:03 -0800

Message no. 1 Heyo,

I've been skipping over a lot of the "space" posts 'cause
I have zero interest in playing Shadowrun in space (well...
maybe the character aspects, but not the tech stuff)...but
then I had another thought: Anybody have any speculations about
what might happen to a highly magical creature (like oh, say,
a dragon) in space?

If human/metahuman mages have problems with it, what about
dual-natured beings? Would they go instantly insane? Would
they shut down (for example, would a dragon go into a forced
hibernation similar to the Sleep)? Would they die? Would
the result vary by type (ghouls go insane, dragons go to sleep,
nonsentient critters die)?

If there was anything in the books about this, I either forgot
about it or didn't really care at the time and therefore
glossed over it.

--Rat

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Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
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From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:18:09 EST

Message no. 2 In a message dated 11/17/1999 1:07:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
winterhawk@*********.net writes:

> Anybody have any speculations about
> what might happen to a highly magical creature (like oh, say,
> a dragon) in space?

Its' part of the questions we are encroaching upon ourselves...

> If human/metahuman mages have problems with it, what about
> dual-natured beings? Would they go instantly insane? Would
> they shut down (for example, would a dragon go into a forced
> hibernation similar to the Sleep)? Would they die? Would
> the result vary by type (ghouls go insane, dragons go to sleep,
> nonsentient critters die)?

IF they have no kind of alternative methods, then things could get instantly
interesting to say the least. "Dual Natured" beings would be subject to all
the effects of an Astral Void, and of Level 10, according to MitS. However,
I keep thinking that with so many people trying to make Dragon Magic
"different" (I don't agree, I just believe they're more
experienced/educated), that perhaps there are alternatives.

For instance, if a dracoform's dual natured, hardened, armor protects them
from all other forms of damaging magic or magical effects, what about this?
(an example, not my belief).

>
> If there was anything in the books about this, I either forgot
> about it or didn't really care at the time and therefore
> glossed over it.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:01:50 -0600

Message no. 3 Since its (sorta) being discussed, I have a question; what happens to an
active focus in space? The descriptions of space have mentioned that foci
become inert, perhaps permentanty, if taken on a ballistic transport (can't
recall if this was only if the were active).
The quantitative values for mana warps (including space) do not (that
I've noticed) support this, unless maybe active foci take "warp damage", and
eventually get killed. If they do NOT take such damage, sustaining foci
(with certain spells) are a great thing for use in astral space- you don't
have any astral security to worry about, and all the casting / drain is
handled down in the gaiasphere!

Mongoose

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:35:46 EST

Message no. 4 In a message dated 11/17/1999 8:33:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Since its (sorta) being discussed, I have a question; what happens to an
> active focus in space? The descriptions of space have mentioned that foci
> become inert, perhaps permentanty, if taken on a ballistic transport (can't
> recall if this was only if the were active).
> The quantitative values for mana warps (including space) do not (that
> I've noticed) support this, unless maybe active foci take "warp damage",
and
> eventually get killed. If they do NOT take such damage, sustaining foci
> (with certain spells) are a great thing for use in astral space- you don't
> have any astral security to worry about, and all the casting / drain is
> handled down in the gaiasphere!

Except that as the rules stand, an *active* foci is a Dual Natured object
still, at least last I recall.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:09:01 -0600

Message no. 5 :> Since its (sorta) being discussed, I have a question; what happens to an
:> active focus in space? The descriptions of space have mentioned that
foci
:> become inert, perhaps permentanty, if taken on a ballistic transport
(can't
:> recall if this was only if the were active).
:> The quantitative values for mana warps (including space) do not
(that
:> I've noticed) support this, unless maybe active foci take "warp damage",
:and
:> eventually get killed. If they do NOT take such damage, sustaining foci
:> (with certain spells) are a great thing for use in astral space- you
don't
:> have any astral security to worry about, and all the casting / drain is
:> handled down in the gaiasphere!
:
:Except that as the rules stand, an *active* foci is a Dual Natured object
:still, at least last I recall.

Yep, that's Right.
Does that mean it takes damage from a warp? It is only specified
that dual beings (and spirits and astrally active characters) take damage,
not dual objects. What would happen to a barrier, if one could be created
(either by warding or otherwise)?
It almost makes more sense that the objects force would be temporarily
(and maybe permanently) reduced. {Causing a focus damage will do basically
that, of course... I'm just checking to be sure.}

Mongoose

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:45:57 EST

Message no. 6 In a message dated 11/17/1999 10:51:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> :Except that as the rules stand, an *active* foci is a Dual Natured object
> :still, at least last I recall.
>
> Yep, that's Right.
> Does that mean it takes damage from a warp? It is only specified
> that dual beings (and spirits and astrally active characters) take damage,
> not dual objects. What would happen to a barrier, if one could be created
> (either by warding or otherwise)?
> It almost makes more sense that the objects force would be temporarily
> (and maybe permanently) reduced. {Causing a focus damage will do basically
> that, of course... I'm just checking to be sure.}

To be honest, I would have the item make a resistance roll based upon the
damage per the level of the Warp/Void in question. Use it's rating, or
alternatively, it's "Enchantment Difficulty Target Number" as the resistance
dice. This would reflect how more powerful items (that would usually cost
more karma for instance) might be resistance to the damage.

Of course, when the damage is measured/checked per turn (3 seconds...), it
had better be a quick trip.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:08:02 -0600

Message no. 7 :> Does that mean it takes damage from a warp? It is only specified
:> that dual beings (and spirits and astrally active characters) take
damage,
:> not dual objects. What would happen to a barrier, if one could be
created
:> (either by warding or otherwise)?
:> It almost makes more sense that the objects force would be
temporarily
:> (and maybe permanently) reduced. {Causing a focus damage will do
basically
:> that, of course... I'm just checking to be sure.}
:
:To be honest, I would have the item make a resistance roll based upon the
:damage per the level of the Warp/Void in question. Use it's rating, or
:alternatively, it's "Enchantment Difficulty Target Number" as the
resistance
:dice. This would reflect how more powerful items (that would usually cost
:more karma for instance) might be resistance to the damage.

I'd expect foci would use force to resist damage if needed, as it does
for astral attacks. The karma spent on an items bonding (or making a ward
permanent) now counts as a karma pool for that item, meaning more powerful
/ "expensive" foci have a bigger karma pool (possibly very big). You can
use that for extra dice and re-rolls (until it runs out), making the "big"
foci pretty tough.

:Of course, when the damage is measured/checked per turn (3 seconds...), it
:had better be a quick trip.

Yeah, that would pretty much require only turning it on when needed, not
bringing active Foci up the well, making sustaining and anchoring foci hard
to use effectively.
Interesting side question on anchoring foci and space- if the anchor is
triggered in space, but the mage is on the ground, is the drain increased
for the mage? What about the opposite case (mage in space, spell triggered
on ground)?
Can a mage just sustain a spell on somebody (from the ground)
while that person goes into space? Hell, what's to stop a mage from
sustaining a spell while HE goes into space? What effect does space have on
Quickened spells- form what I can tell, they might still work just FINE in
space!
But again, I'm not sure a mana warp does do damage to enchanted objects;
it fits past descriptions (NAGRL, I think), but is there anything more
"current" that refers to the danger of taking foci into space? What about
any reference to the effects of warps on already cast spells that are being
sustained (by various means)?

Mongoose

From:	Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:09:00 +0200

Message no. 8 > Yeah, that would pretty much require only turning it on when
needed, not
>bringing active Foci up the well, making sustaining and anchoring
foci hard
>to use effectively.
> Interesting side question on anchoring foci and space- if the
anchor is
>triggered in space, but the mage is on the ground, is the drain
increased
>for the mage? What about the opposite case (mage in space, spell
triggered
>on ground)?
> Can a mage just sustain a spell on somebody (from the ground)
>while that person goes into space? Hell, what's to stop a mage from
>sustaining a spell while HE goes into space? What effect does space
have on
>Quickened spells- form what I can tell, they might still work just
FINE in
>space!
> But again, I'm not sure a mana warp does do damage to enchanted
objects;
>it fits past descriptions (NAGRL, I think), but is there anything
more
>"current" that refers to the danger of taking foci into space? What
about
>any reference to the effects of warps on already cast spells that are
being
>sustained (by various means)?
>
>Mongoose

Also, what happens to Adepts physical abilities while in the Void?

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe

From:	Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Sat, 20 Nov 1999 01:02:35 +1100

Message no. 9 At 11:09 19/11/99 +0200, Bruce wrote:
>Also, what happens to Adepts physical abilities while in the Void?

For me, I find that applying the MITS Warp Effects are a good start and
usually sufficient. Magic loss makes any physad cry, and in deep space they
lose 12 magic points. This should reduce nearly all physads to zero magic -
mundanes. For the physads that have any magic left, or for lower Warp
levels, I apply the Warp Effects modifiers wherever I deem it appropriate
e.g. target number modifiers to tests in Attribute Boost and Distance
Strike, drain modifiers to Attribute Boost, target number modifiers to
Reaction tests using the extra dice from Sixth Sense, target modifiers to
Empathic Sense tests, and so on.

For those permanently bought physad powers that have no relevant tests to
modify, I usually allow them to stand unmodified since the physad has been
severely penalized by the hit to magic rating.

Perhaps the level/rating/bonus dice of a physad's power should be reduced
by the Drain Level modifier or the Drain Power modifier in the MITS Warp
Effects table?

Perhaps the force rating of foci should be appropriately reduced the same
way (with the consequent results)? Same for the force rating of quickened
or sustained spells.

Chris

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:25:16 -0500

Message no. 10 > >Also, what happens to Adepts physical abilities while in the Void?
>
> For me, I find that applying the MITS Warp Effects are a good start and
> usually sufficient. Magic loss makes any physad cry, and in deep space
they
> lose 12 magic points. This should reduce nearly all physads to zero
magic -
> mundanes.

Thank you for mentioning this.

If an adept goes into space and loses his abilities, ROLEPLAY IT OUT. Keep
in mind he has suddenly, say, gone blind, deaf, and is simultaneously
stricken with weakness and slow reactions. Imagine rocketing into space--a
traumatic enough event in itself--and suddenly going blind and deaf and
getting Multiple Sclerosis, all at the same time. This should not be
something that bothers you, but that you overcome when it's convenient. This
should be a fundemental change, that continues to effect you for days, even
when you get your powers back. You will never have the faith you once had.
No mechanic should be necessary for this, but I suppose most people would
want one; it would certainly be similar to "dump shock," but last much
longer, and be much more permanentely effecting.

The entire foundation or your life has just been stripped away. Everything
you believed in and relied on is gone. No one knows if you'll get it back.
Your ears feel like someone stuffed cotten in them, and there are thick,
distorting lenses in front of your eyes. You feel like you're moving through
a thick fluid, but you're not; it's just the air, the air you can no longer
smell.

I suppose I would recommend reading "I, Jedi," a Star Wars book by Michael
A. Stackpole. Not only is the book rather good, if not as good as many
others he's done, but it contains an excellent description of what one feels
when the foundation of one's life is stripped away, in that case, Jedi
powers, in this case, Adept powers.

Obviously, the effects will vary, based on what abilities you have; losing
the ability to hibernate isn't going to freak you out *that* much. But
adepts, by nature, have a more intimate, more immediate connection to magic
than mages; mages use magic, adepts *are* magic.

Just thought I'd call for a little roleplaying; as per usual, I suppose.

___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:10:19 +0100

Message no. 11 Chris Maxfield writes:
>
>At 11:09 19/11/99 +0200, Bruce wrote:
>>Also, what happens to Adepts physical abilities while in the Void?
>
>For me, I find that applying the MITS Warp Effects are a good
>start and
>usually sufficient. Magic loss makes any physad cry, and in
>deep space they
>lose 12 magic points. This should reduce nearly all physads to
>zero magic - mundanes.
>
>Chris

I would agree on this when the adept is using his powers (has "activated"
them).

Forgive my ignorance, but I always presumed that adepts kind a like to
"activate" (read: use) there powers in able get them powered by mana from
astral space.
The reason why I always thought this is because adepts can take the
"exclusive" geasa which means that they cannot use these powers
simultaneously. Thus meaning that the powers are not by default "active".

Penalties and effects of space would therefore only affect them once they
actually try to use one of there powers. Which would still leave the adept
freaked out (fealing mundane "again?"), especially in deep space.

Please correct me if I am wrong, because this was a discussion I had with
one of the players last session, but we sort a figured it out as stated
above.

Just my thoughts,

-Sven :)

--
"Every word is part of a picture, every sentence IS a picture, all you do is
let your imagination connect them together...

if you have an imagination that is."
-Freak The Mighty

From:	Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:03:27 -0200

Message no. 12 On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:18:09 EST
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/17/1999 1:07:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> winterhawk@*********.net writes:
>
> IF they have no kind of alternative methods, then things could get instantly
> interesting to say the least. "Dual Natured" beings would be subject to
all
> the effects of an Astral Void, and of Level 10, according to MitS. However,
> I keep thinking that with so many people trying to make Dragon Magic
> "different" (I don't agree, I just believe they're more
> experienced/educated), that perhaps there are alternatives.
>
> For instance, if a dracoform's dual natured, hardened, armor protects them
> from all other forms of damaging magic or magical effects, what about this?
> (an example, not my belief).
>
> -K

You can always place a "Greenhouse habitat" up the well, where
there's enough life (maybe a small ecosystem) to provide some sort of
Gaiasphere. Magic would be possible in such a place, but it would
probably have some background count, though nowhere as much as a level
10 Mana Warp. Maybe two or three points.
The reasons for such a venture might range from simply making
jobs easier to a moon colony effort to the famous "dark conspiracy".

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455

From:	Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:45:19 -0200

Message no. 13 On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:09:01 -0600
"Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:

>
> Yep, that's Right.
> Does that mean it takes damage from a warp? It is only specified
> that dual beings (and spirits and astrally active characters) take damage,
> not dual objects. What would happen to a barrier, if one could be created
> (either by warding or otherwise)?
> It almost makes more sense that the objects force would be temporarily
> (and maybe permanently) reduced. {Causing a focus damage will do basically
> that, of course... I'm just checking to be sure.}
>
> Mongoose
>

You can say that things such as foci are alive to some extent,
because they are astrally active. Not that they have personalities and
such, but much work (and perhaps love?) from the magician is "woven" in
the object, and SR magic is largely about life and emotions...

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455

From:	Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject:	Another space question
Date:	Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:54:07 +1100

Message no. 14 At 17:10 19/11/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
>I would agree on this when the adept is using his powers (has "activated"
>them).

Yep. That's the only time it would be relevant.

> Forgive my ignorance, but I always presumed that adepts kind a like to
>"activate" (read: use) there powers in able get them powered by mana from
>astral space.
>The reason why I always thought this is because adepts can take the
>"exclusive" geasa which means that they cannot use these powers
>simultaneously. Thus meaning that the powers are not by default "active".

I play the physad powers as active until deactivated and inactive until
activated. That is, the default is both active and inactive and the physad
can switch between them - and because the powers are so innate, I play this
switching as costing no actions or time.

> Penalties and effects of space would therefore only affect them once they
>actually try to use one of there powers. Which would still leave the adept

I agree with this and it's what I thought I said. :-)

>freaked out (fealing mundane "again?"), especially in deep space.
>Please correct me if I am wrong, because this was a discussion I had with
>one of the players last session, but we sort a figured it out as stated
>above.

As it's such an intimate part of his being I think the physad would be very
aware of the draining of his magic and the loss of his powers; whether he
had them active at the time or not. In deep space he would feel himself
lose everything (possibly).

Chris

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