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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sat Apr 28 15:25:01 2001
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OK, as part of my continuing series: 'Mental Health and Joe the Disturbed
Runner' (used to be a vague idea for a sourcebook covering medicine (not just
mental health, but that's a start) in SR, then I figured it'd never fly at
FASA), a question for you all:

What the hell would replace antidepressants in SR? What's the new Prozac
(...Zoloft, Paxil, whatever). Or, God help us, what's the latest wannabe for
ritalin?

Furthermore, and this is also to see how many OTHER SR players have
experience with it, yes....What's inpaitent mental health treatment like? for
kids?

John

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>OK, as part of my
continuing series: 'Mental Health and Joe the Disturbed
<BR>Runner' (used to be a vague idea for a sourcebook covering medicine (not just
<BR>mental health, but that's a start) in SR, then I figured it'd never fly at
<BR>FASA), a question for you all:
<BR>
<BR>What the hell would replace antidepressants in SR? What's the new Prozac
<BR>(...Zoloft, Paxil, whatever). Or, God help us, what's the latest wannabe for
<BR>ritalin?
<BR>
<BR>Furthermore, and this is also to see how many OTHER SR players have
<BR>experience with it, yes....What's inpaitent mental health treatment like? for
<BR>kids?
<BR>
<BR>John</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sat Apr 28 15:50:01 2001
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:

> What the hell would replace antidepressants in SR? What's the new Prozac
> (...Zoloft, Paxil, whatever). Or, God help us, what's the latest wannabe for
> ritalin?

Make something up. I'm mostly convinced that that's what the drug
companies do now anyways. Most likely it's effect will be to actually last
24 hours like they're supposed to - and don't - now, to reduce the number
of side effects - Prozac is good at blocking depression, but it also
makes you fairly blah about EVERYTHING; Paxil occasionally makes people
feel like they haven't really slept after sleeping for as much as 16 hours
- these are some of the side effects that would be reduced or eliminated
by the 2060's.

> Furthermore, and this is also to see how many OTHER SR players have
> experience with it, yes....What's inpaitent mental health treatment like? for
> kids?

Don't know about kids, but it can be EXTREMELY traumatizing for adults.
Basic stuff, like your ability to walk outside, can be cut off and removed
from you. People fail to adequately explain things to you when you go in;
if you go in voluntarily, and they need to transfer you from point A to
point B, then there's going to be some real funky stuff that they have to
do. (They can't let you walk out, and they need to run you on a
Physician's Emergency Certificate to get you there via ambulance. If you
forget to tell them at the door to Point B that you're checking in
voluntarily, you WILL be stuck there until such time as a doctor says
you're no danger to yourself or society.)

Bedspace is an issue, and probably always will be. If you're going in
because you're thinking suicidally, and they don't have the bed space in
the normal wards, then they have to stick you somewhere. Usually that
somewhere is the Flight Restriction Ward, where they put people who A)
Have a mental condition, and B) Have a reason to run away, such as
drugs(most commonly) or outstanding warrants. You MAY, if you're on good
behavior, be allowed to leave the ward for meals; if you're on not-as-good
behavior, then you might be allowed two 15 minute trips per day to a caged
patio where you can smoke or be outside or whatever.

Next step is ward restrict. You don't leave the ward at all, and the fine
mental healthcare professionals keep an eagle eye on you. If you start
acting up, you get restrained and sent into a solitary room of sorts where
there's an airlock between you and everyone else, and the techs are the
only ones who go in there.

Mental wards can be a scary place. It's entirely possible to go into one
and not come out for several months. The restricions in a mental ward in
Shadowrun would be a lot tighter, and there would be cyberware scanners
everywhere. There would probably be at least one magically active
individual on staff every shift, and things could get really messy all
around for any individual stuck on the inside.

Given time, an experienced person could most likely escape, but it would
be far from easy, and they'd probably be pretty traumatized by it,
especially if they didn't need to be there in the first place.

A low security ward is more of a mentally monitored vacation than a
prison; this is where people end up if they're having a hard time with
life and want to find a way out of things, preferably without killing
themselves. Treatment is significantly better, there's less restrictions,
and overall there's a much nicer atmosphere. IMPO, ain't no runner that's
gonna end up there. A runner in a mental ward is either breaking someone
out or has been tricked into confinement.

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sat Apr 28 19:10:00 2001
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In a message dated 4/28/01 3:58:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:

I'm going to violate list etiquette just this once, so I can respond to this
in an organized fashion. Wolfstar, you make REALLY good points, BTW. I've had
RL experience with inpaitent mental health, and you've described it really
well. I'll add my impressions of my experiences (best I can do), and other
things such as RP notes (since I just know there'll be people who RP such
things...) as necessary, along with anecdotes and the like to maybe help with
RP and overall understanding.

> Don't know about kids, but it can be EXTREMELY traumatizing for adults.
>
Kids too. If anyone wants, I'll email a journal of my impressions of my time
in inpaitent care. (10 days on the crisis unit. SCARY.) Let me summarize by
saying that, if you're on a crisis/suicide-prevention unit, expect everything
you've known about yourself to get SHATTERED. True now, will be true in 2061.
Chances are, that experience, at least the first time, will change your life;
Me, I still remember it vividly, from those first moments in Monmouth Medical
Center's psychiatric ER, to my last minutes on the unit. I still remember
EVERY other paitent and every staff member I met there, even though it's been
nearly 2 years; With one person, I still remember their name and description,
even though we've had no contact since. (RP note: This is a brilliant way to
expose a player, or better yet, a character, to people they would NEVER meet
otherwise. Great way to introduce odd contacts, GMs; It's very, very
close-quarters in a psych unit, and it's not hard to make friends in there,
as you learn EVERYTHING about each other (long nights, group sessions filled
with stories that still make me shudder...that's about right:-).)

> asic stuff, like your ability to walk outside, can be cut off and removed
> from you.

No, IS removed. Keep in mind though, I went through a crisis unit (albeit for
kids). May be different elsewhere. But, in my experience, both in inpaitent
care and partial hospitalization (a strange anomaly used only in psychiatric
care, AFAIK), you NEVER left, even for a moment, without hospital staff
within arm's length. There was NO privacy, and both you and your room got
searched at least twice a day. Yeah, every inch of it. (To compensate, the
food is actually really good, not your normal hospital food; However, you've
never had rotisserie chicken until you've had to eat it, cut it, etc. without
a SINGLE sharp object. Cutting chicken with a spoon was decidedly an odd
experience.) Nothing, AT ALL, could be brought in without a thorough search
of said things by staff; It'd be rather impossible to sneak stuff in, for
whatever reason, even in 2060.

>People fail to adequately explain things to you when you go in;
> f you go in voluntarily, and they need to transfer you from point A to
> point B, then there's going to be some real funky stuff that they have to
> do. (They can't let you walk out, and they need to run you on a
> Physician's Emergency Certificate to get you there via ambulance. If you
> forget to tell them at the door to Point B that you're checking in
> voluntarily, you WILL be stuck there until such time as a doctor says
> you're no danger to yourself or society.)

Fortunately, transfers are rare as hell; They pretty easily destroy
whatever progress has been made. Agreed on the involuntary commitments,
though...Those are..not fun.

> Bedspace is an issue, and probably always will be. If you're going in
> because you're thinking suicidally, and they don't have the bed space in
> the normal wards, then they have to stick you somewhere.

Echo the bedspace issue. CCIS (My local hospital's child/adolescent
crisis unit) had *19* beds. That, as far as I know, is big. Thus...Flight
Restriction units, as such, are rare except for *big* hospitals, since psych
is usually one of the smaller departments; They also provide much worse care
as such, and the HMO backlash (present in SR as well, I'd suspect) has any
hospital with two brain cells focusing on just that, by and large (an amazing
number of *hospitals* are non-profits. Most are, actually, AFAIK. Even
for-profits (around here, at least) have learned that high quality of care =
good PR, and, actually, lower costs, to a point.). Paitents with warrants?
That's why psych wards have cameras in a lot of places, locked doors (REALLY
locked. SR times, assume a minimum of a rating 5 maglock, with alarms of all
sorts set to go at the MINIMUM of tampering. Did I mention that psych staff
are usually VERY well trained in unarmed combat and the like (if someone can
make a CC-compatible martial art based off the common hospital holds, I'd be
grateful. You learn a lot by watching em.)

Usually that
> somewhere is the Flight Restriction Ward, where they put people who A)
> Have a mental condition, and B) Have a reason to run away, such as
> drugs(most commonly) or outstanding warrants. You MAY, if you're on good
> behavior, be allowed to leave the ward for meals; if you're on not-as-good
> behavior, then you might be allowed two 15 minute trips per day to a caged
> patio where you can smoke or be outside or whatever.

Probably cuz I was in a kids' unit, but according to a friend who
worked on the adult units in the same hospital and was able to confirm most
of this, more likely the usual standard is thus, which my own experience,
such as it is, confirms: Generally, paitents eat together. If they're on
restriction to their rooms, they eat alone. (I did it by choice my second
night there; I was NOT in a good mood. First night, well...I entered the
unit, went to sleep. Had had dinner in the ER. Odd experience; Your fate
being utterly uncertain gives a bigger appetite than you'd expect, even while
depressed.)

> Next step is ward restrict. You don't leave the ward at all, and the fine
> mental healthcare professionals keep an eagle eye on you. If you start
> acting up, you get restrained and sent into a solitary room of sorts where
> there's an airlock between you and everyone else, and the techs are the
> only ones who go in there.

Ward restrict was basically assumed, though I was on a short-term unit
(14 days or less. More time, in mental health units of any sort, REQUIRES a
meeting with a judge, every 14 days.) and you only got 4 or 8-hour passes
off-unit, under strict conditions (could not be left alone at all, etc).

BTW...I don't remember it being an *airlock* into seclusion. More like a
REALLY heavy door, with LOTS of locks (from the outside, controlled remotely
IIRC). And, yeah. NOBODY goes into the seclusion area except techs and the
one being secluded. Restraints are used as a last resort. Discipline, on
unit, goes as thus, from my memories (vivid still): Room restriction for
lightly bad cases, then seclusion (for limited periods), with the doors being
locked if you're really losing it. Finally, for people totally freaking out,
4-point restraints (a gurney with leather straps at wrists and ankles) were
used, with an application of a tranquilizer (thorazine IRL) via liquid
(purply, looks like some sort of poison at first glance, tastes horrible..had
it, I still get the aftertaste in my mouth when I think of it) or injection
(not exactly painless, let's say that.) while restrained, after that.

> Mental wards can be a scary place. It's entirely possible to go into one
> and not come out for several months. The restricions in a mental ward in
> Shadowrun would be a lot tighter, and there would be cyberware scanners
> everywhere.

The unit I was in had one, and ONLY one, entrance and exit, right by
the nurse's station, in full view of the duty nurse. A cyberware scanner
would be there. Also, it'd be locked at ALL times.

There would probably be at least one magically active
> individual on staff every shift, and things could get really messy all
> around for any individual stuck on the inside.

What do you mean by that last sentence?
Additional sec measures, by my guess: Magemasks would NOT be used.
They're TOO confining, and, believe it or not, paitents have rights. Expect
all cyber to be disabled except stuff like basic senseware (cybereyes, etc.).
Every, and I mean EVERY staff member would be combat-trained; Weapons are a
nono for all sides (Tasers included. Anything remotely LIKE a weapon tends to
make things...bad), so expect a decent amount of skill in specialized forms
of unarmed combat. Oh yeah, typical procedure is to have at least 2 personnel
detain paitents that are acting out, so they got the advantage all around.:-)

> Given time, an experienced person could most likely escape, but it would
> be far from easy, and they'd probably be pretty traumatized by it,
> especially if they didn't need to be there in the first place.

Doesn't happen much, actually. Bedspace is too damn limited for MH
sections to waste time with someone kept there so they can't talk. Echo,
again, on traumatized. The first day is ALWAYS scary, no matter WHO you are.
And, yeah, you could escape...But it's simpler all around to just make
progress in your treatment and be released with the many cheers, tears, and
hugs that accompany such an occasion. It's actually a DAMN good feeling to
get discharged successfully, and is one hell of a high, in an odd way. You
realize that, oh, the 2nd day in.:-)

> A low security ward is more of a mentally monitored vacation than a
> prison; this is where people end up if they're having a hard time with
> life and want to find a way out of things, preferably without killing
> themselves. Treatment is significantly better, there's less restrictions,
> and overall there's a much nicer atmosphere.

Again, maybe cuz it was a kids unit, but I'd say the atmosphere was
pretty good even in the highsec units. Very, very relaxed. So long as you
didn't freak out, it was occasionally actually sort of fun to be there.:-)
Although, whoever picked the color scheme of hot pink and "gas chamber green"
that prevailed in the unit I was on had problems.:-)

IMPO, ain't no runner that's
> gonna end up there. A runner in a mental ward is either breaking someone
> .

Or, they may be there legitimately, as a paitent. Which would be a
HELL of an adventure...getting mental treatment. Not normal, but definitely
cool.

John


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/28/01 3:58:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>I'm going to violate list etiquette just this once, so I can respond to this
<BR>in an organized fashion. Wolfstar, you make REALLY good points, BTW. I've had
<BR>RL experience with inpaitent mental health, and you've described it really
<BR>well. I'll add my impressions of my experiences (best I can do), and other
<BR>things such as RP notes (since I just know there'll be people who RP such
<BR>things...) as necessary, along with anecdotes and the like to maybe help with
<BR>RP and overall understanding.
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Don't know about kids, but
it can be EXTREMELY traumatizing for adults.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>Kids too. If anyone wants, I'll email a journal of my impressions of my time
<BR>in inpaitent care. (10 days on the crisis unit. SCARY.) Let me summarize by
<BR>saying that, if you're on a crisis/suicide-prevention unit, expect everything
<BR>you've known about yourself to get SHATTERED. True now, will be true in 2061.
<BR>Chances are, that experience, at least the first time, will change your life;
<BR>Me, I still remember it vividly, from those first moments in Monmouth Medical
<BR>Center's psychiatric ER, to my last minutes on the unit. I still remember
<BR>EVERY other paitent and every staff member I met there, even though it's been
<BR>nearly 2 years; With one person, I still remember their name and description,
<BR>even though we've had no contact since. (RP note: This is a brilliant way to
<BR>expose a player, or better yet, a character, to people they would NEVER meet
<BR>otherwise. Great way to introduce odd contacts, GMs; It's very, very
<BR>close-quarters in a psych unit, and it's not hard to make friends in there,
<BR>as you learn EVERYTHING about each other (long nights, group sessions filled
<BR>with stories that still make me shudder...that's about right:-).)
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">B<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">asic stuff, like your ability to walk outside, can be cut off
and removed
<BR>from you. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>No, IS removed. Keep in mind though, I went through a crisis unit (albeit for
<BR>kids). May be different elsewhere. But, in my experience, both in inpaitent
<BR>care and partial hospitalization (a strange anomaly used only in psychiatric
<BR>care, AFAIK), you NEVER left, even for a moment, without hospital staff
<BR>within arm's length. There was NO privacy, and both you and your room got
<BR>searched at least twice a day. Yeah, every inch of it. (To compensate, the
<BR>food is actually really good, not your normal hospital food; However, you've
<BR>never had rotisserie chicken until you've had to eat it, cut it, etc. without
<BR>a SINGLE sharp object. Cutting chicken with a spoon was decidedly an odd
<BR>experience.) Nothing, AT ALL, could be brought in without a thorough search
<BR>of said things by staff; It'd be rather impossible to sneak stuff in, for
<BR>whatever reason, even in 2060.
<BR>
<BR>&gt;</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">People fail to
adequately explain things to you when you go in;</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">i<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">f you go in voluntarily, and they need to transfer you from
point A to
<BR>point B, then there's going to be some real funky stuff that they have to
<BR>do. (They can't let you walk out, and they need to run you on a
<BR>Physician's Emergency Certificate to get you there via ambulance. If you
<BR>forget to tell them at the door to Point B that you're checking in
<BR>voluntarily, you WILL be stuck there until such time as a doctor says
<BR>you're no danger to yourself or society.)</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Fortunately, transfers are
rare as hell; They pretty easily destroy
<BR>whatever progress has been made.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> Agreed
on the involuntary commitments,
<BR>though...Those are..not fun.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Bedspace is an issue, and probably always will be. If you're
going in
<BR>because you're thinking suicidally, and they don't have the bed space in
<BR>the normal wards, then they have to stick you somewhere.</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Echo the bedspace
issue. CCIS (My local hospital's child/adolescent
<BR>crisis unit) had *19* beds. That, as far as I know, is big. Thus...Flight
<BR>Restriction units, as such, are rare except for *big* hospitals, since psych
<BR>is usually one of the smaller departments; They also provide much worse care
<BR>as such, and the HMO backlash (present in SR as well, I'd suspect) has any
<BR>hospital with two brain cells focusing on just that, by and large (an amazing
<BR>number of *hospitals* are non-profits. Most are, actually, AFAIK. Even
<BR>for-profits (around here, at least) have learned that high quality of care =
<BR>good PR, and, actually, lower costs, to a point.). Paitents with warrants?
<BR>That's why psych wards have cameras in a lot of places, locked doors (REALLY
<BR>locked. SR times, assume a minimum of a rating 5 maglock, with alarms of all
<BR>sorts set to go at the MINIMUM of tampering. Did I mention that psych staff
<BR>are usually VERY well trained in unarmed combat and the like (if someone can
<BR>make a CC-compatible martial art based off the common hospital holds, I'd be
<BR>grateful. You learn a lot by watching em.)
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> Usually
that</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">somewhere is the Flight Restriction Ward, where they put people
who A)
<BR>Have a mental condition, and B) Have a reason to run away, such as
<BR>drugs(most commonly) or outstanding warrants. You MAY, if you're on good
<BR>behavior, be allowed to leave the ward for meals; if you're on not-as-good
<BR>behavior, then you might be allowed two 15 minute trips per day to a caged
<BR>patio where you can smoke or be outside or whatever.</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Probably cuz I was in a kids'
unit, but according to a friend who
<BR>worked on the adult units in the same hospital and was able to confirm most
<BR>of this, more likely the usual standard is thus, which my own experience,
<BR>such as it is, confirms: Generally, paitents eat together. If they're on
<BR>restriction to their rooms, they eat alone. (I did it by choice my second
<BR>night there; I was NOT in a good mood. First night, well...I entered the
<BR>unit, went to sleep. Had had dinner in the ER. Odd experience; Your fate
<BR>being utterly uncertain gives a bigger appetite than you'd expect, even while
<BR>depressed.)
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Next step is ward restrict. You don't leave the ward at all,
and the fine
<BR>mental healthcare professionals keep an eagle eye on you. If you start
<BR>acting up, you get restrained and sent into a solitary room of sorts where
<BR>there's an airlock between you and everyone else, and the techs are the
<BR>only ones who go in there.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ward restrict was
basically assumed, though I was on a short-term unit
<BR>(14 days or less. More time, in mental health units of any sort, REQUIRES a
<BR>meeting with a judge, every 14 days.) and you only got 4 or 8-hour passes
<BR>off-unit, under strict conditions (could not be left alone at all, etc).
<BR>
<BR>BTW...I don't remember it being an *airlock* into seclusion. More like a
<BR>REALLY heavy door, with LOTS of locks (from the outside, controlled remotely
<BR>IIRC). And, yeah. NOBODY goes into the seclusion area except techs and the
<BR>one being secluded. Restraints are used as a last resort. Discipline, on
<BR>unit, goes as thus, from my memories (vivid still): </FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0">Room restriction for
<BR>lightly bad cases, then seclusion (for limited periods), with the doors being
<BR>locked if you're really losing it. Finally, for people totally freaking out,
<BR>4-point restraints (a gurney with leather straps at wrists and ankles) were
<BR>used, with an application of a tranquilizer (thorazine IRL) via liquid
<BR>(purply, looks like some sort of poison at first glance, tastes horrible..had
<BR>it, I still get the aftertaste in my mouth when I think of it) or injection
<BR>(not exactly painless, let's say that.) while restrained, after that.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Mental wards can be a scary place. It's entirely possible to go
into one
<BR>and not come out for several months. The restricions in a mental ward in
<BR>Shadowrun would be a lot tighter, and there would be cyberware scanners
<BR>everywhere.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The unit I was in
had one, and ONLY one, entrance and exit, right by
<BR>the nurse's station, in full view of the duty nurse. A cyberware scanner
<BR>would be there. Also, it'd be locked at ALL times.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> There would
probably be at least one magically active</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">individual on staff every shift, and things could get really
messy all
<BR>around for any individual stuck on the inside.</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What do you mean by
that last sentence?
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Additional sec measures, by my
guess: Magemasks would NOT be used.
<BR>They're TOO confining, and, believe it or not, paitents have rights. Expect
<BR>all cyber to be disabled except stuff like basic senseware (cybereyes, etc.).
<BR>Every, and I mean EVERY staff member would be combat-trained; Weapons are a
<BR>nono for all sides (Tasers included. Anything remotely LIKE a weapon tends to
<BR>make things...bad), so expect a decent amount of skill in specialized forms
<BR>of unarmed combat. Oh yeah, typical procedure is to have at least 2 personnel
<BR>detain paitents that are acting out, so they got the advantage all around.:-)
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Given time, an experienced person could most likely escape, but
it would
<BR>be far from easy, and they'd probably be pretty traumatized by it,
<BR>especially if they didn't need to be there in the first
place.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Doesn't happen much, actually.
Bedspace is too damn limited for MH
<BR>sections to waste time with someone kept there so they can't talk. Echo,
<BR>again, on traumatized. The first day is ALWAYS scary, no matter WHO you are.
<BR>And, yeah, you could escape...But it's simpler all around to just make
<BR>progress in your treatment and be released with the many cheers, tears, and
<BR>hugs that accompany such an occasion. It's actually a DAMN good feeling to
<BR>get discharged successfully, and is one hell of a high, in an odd way. You
<BR>realize that, oh, the 2nd day in.:-)
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">A low security ward is more of a mentally monitored vacation
than a
<BR>prison; this is where people end up if they're having a hard time with
<BR>life and want to find a way out of things, preferably without killing
<BR>themselves. Treatment is significantly better, there's less restrictions,
<BR>and overall there's a much nicer atmosphere.</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Again, maybe cuz it
was a kids unit, but I'd say the atmosphere was
<BR>pretty good even in the highsec units. Very, very relaxed. So long as you
<BR>didn't freak out, it was occasionally actually sort of fun to be there.:-)
<BR>Although, whoever picked the color scheme of hot pink and "gas chamber
green"
<BR>that prevailed in the unit I was on had problems.:-)
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;IMPO, ain't no runner that's</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">gonna end up there. A runner in a mental ward is either
breaking someone
<BR>out or has been tricked into
confinement</BLOCKQUOTE>.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Or, they may be
there legitimately, as a paitent. Which would be a
<BR>HELL of an adventure...getting mental treatment. Not normal, but definitely
<BR>cool.
<BR>
<BR>John
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sat Apr 28 22:35:01 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: DemonPenta@***.com <DemonPenta@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, April 29, 2001 5:30 AM
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....


>OK, as part of my continuing series: 'Mental Health and Joe the Disturbed
>Runner' (used to be a vague idea for a sourcebook covering medicine (not
just
>mental health, but that's a start) in SR, then I figured it'd never fly at
>FASA), a question for you all:
>
>What the hell would replace antidepressants in SR? What's the new Prozac
>(...Zoloft, Paxil, whatever). Or, God help us, what's the latest wannabe
for
>ritalin?
>
>Furthermore, and this is also to see how many OTHER SR players have
>experience with it, yes....What's inpaitent mental health treatment like?
for
>kids?
>

ASSIST would have to play a big part. A modified BTL that pumps an analogue
of Happiness into your brain would go a long way toward fighting the black
dog. More long-term effects that modify your brain patterns would also be
available I'm sure.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sat Apr 28 23:05:00 2001
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In a message dated 4/28/01 10:43:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sfuller@******.com.au writes:


> ASSIST would have to play a big part. A modified BTL that pumps an analogue
> of Happiness into your brain would go a long way toward fighting the black
> dog. More long-term effects that modify your brain patterns would also be
> available I'm sure.

The black dog. Simon, you remember WHERE that term for depression came from?

On another note...I DOUBT they'd touch ASIST. Keep in mind, someone with a
mental illness usually has a huge, huge chemical imbalance in the brain.
ASIST might cause waayy more problems, especially at BTL levels. At best, I
would think ASIST would have the place ECT (Electrocortical stimulation, AKA
shock therapy) has today: The utter Last Resort in treatment, done only on a
Very Inpaitent basis.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/28/01 10:43:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>sfuller@******.com.au writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">ASSIST would have to play
a big part. A modified BTL that pumps an analogue
<BR>of Happiness into your brain would go a long way toward fighting the black
<BR>dog. More long-term effects &nbsp;that modify your brain patterns would also
be
<BR>available I'm sure.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>The black dog. Simon, you remember WHERE that term for depression came from?
<BR>
<BR>On another note...I DOUBT they'd touch ASIST. Keep in mind, someone with a
<BR>mental illness usually has a huge, huge chemical imbalance in the brain.
<BR>ASIST might cause waayy more problems, especially at BTL levels. At best, I
<BR>would think ASIST would have the place ECT (Electrocortical stimulation, AKA
<BR>shock therapy) has today: The utter Last Resort in treatment, done only on a
<BR>Very Inpaitent basis.</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 01:15:01 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: DemonPenta@***.com <DemonPenta@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, April 29, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....


>The black dog. Simon, you remember WHERE that term for depression came
from?
>
Wasn't it Churchill? I'm not sure what you mean.

>On another note...I DOUBT they'd touch ASIST. Keep in mind, someone with a
>mental illness usually has a huge, huge chemical imbalance in the brain.
>ASIST might cause waayy more problems, especially at BTL levels. At best, I
>would think ASIST would have the place ECT (Electrocortical stimulation,
AKA
>shock therapy) has today: The utter Last Resort in treatment, done only on
a
>Very Inpaitent basis.
>

I don't know all the ins and outs (nobody does, that's most of the problem),
but the way I see it, BTLs modify your brain patterns to make you feel the
required emotions. Surely by using ASIST you sidestep the chemical
imbalances entirely, instead of trying to compensate with drugs. Not a real
cure obviously, but a lot of procedures aren't, and at least the person can
function normally.
Anyway, this isn't a subject I enjoy much, I might leave the thread at that,
please don't think I'm rude if I don't reply any more, though I will follow
the thread.
-Simon
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 04:30:01 2001
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/28/01 3:58:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:
>
> I'm going to violate list etiquette just this once, so I can respond to this
> in an organized fashion. Wolfstar, you make REALLY good points, BTW. I've had

I should hope so. More than a few people around here have probably
realized by now that this was a description of my own brief stay at Yale
Psychiatric Unit back in '98, The Year Everything Went Wrong.

I'll take things in points.

> > Don't know about kids, but it can be EXTREMELY traumatizing for adults.
> >
> Kids too. If anyone wants, I'll email a journal of my impressions of my time
> in inpaitent care. (10 days on the crisis unit. SCARY.) Let me summarize by

I figured as much, but since I didn't know first hand, I wouldn't want to
say.

> > Basic stuff, like your ability to walk outside, can be cut off and
> > removed from you.
>
> No, IS removed. Keep in mind though, I went through a crisis unit (albeit for
> kids). May be different elsewhere. But, in my experience, both in inpaitent

By can be, I meant that you can be about to walk outside after
dinner(assume you earned the right to), and if you were snippy or rude or
generally misbehaved, you would have that right revoked. Usually between
steps towards the door.

> within arm's length. There was NO privacy, and both you and your room got
> searched at least twice a day. Yeah, every inch of it. (To compensate, the

That's PROBABLY a function of the hospital and age-group you were in. That
wasn't my experience personally.

> Fortunately, transfers are rare as hell; They pretty easily destroy
> whatever progress has been made. Agreed on the involuntary commitments,
> though...Those are..not fun.

Transfers once you're in, yes. But Yale/New Haven Hospital's Crisis
Intervention Unit is at the hospital itself, and Yale Psychiatric
Institute is a few blocks off. The PEC came in between getting from CIU to
the Psych Institute.

Ah well, at least the paras let me have a couple of smokes first.

> > Bedspace is an issue, and probably always will be. If you're going in
> > because you're thinking suicidally, and they don't have the bed space in
> > the normal wards, then they have to stick you somewhere.
>
> Echo the bedspace issue. CCIS (My local hospital's child/adolescent
> crisis unit) had *19* beds. That, as far as I know, is big. Thus...Flight
> Restriction units, as such, are rare except for *big* hospitals, since psych

Yale qualifies as a big hospital. =) However, I'm more referring to Mental
Health Institutes, rather than a Psych Ward in a hospital. Flight Restrict
Units are NASTY; if you're lucky you get three outings per day; meanwhile
the other levels get as much as 6, and Partial Inpatient plays all by
themselves in another world.

> That's why psych wards have cameras in a lot of places, locked doors (REALLY
> locked. SR times, assume a minimum of a rating 5 maglock, with alarms of all
> sorts set to go at the MINIMUM of tampering. Did I mention that psych staff
> are usually VERY well trained in unarmed combat and the like (if someone can
> make a CC-compatible martial art based off the common hospital holds, I'd be
> grateful. You learn a lot by watching em.)

The doors to the Flight Restrict section were 2-inch thick - I think -
Lexan, and the same was used for the control center fishbowl. There was
only one easy entrance to the facility, and it was through a locked
firedoor. You had to be buzzed in and out of the door.

> such as it is, confirms: Generally, paitents eat together. If they're on

True. You eat in the ward unless you're on very good behavior, in which
case you get to eat in the cafeteria with patients from the other wards.
That's Flight Restrict. I don't even think we had room restrictions,
mostly because each room was shared. They check in once an hour like
clockwork, at least at YPI.

> > Next step is ward restrict. You don't leave the ward at all, and the fine
>
> Ward restrict was basically assumed, though I was on a short-term unit
> (14 days or less. More time, in mental health units of any sort, REQUIRES a
> meeting with a judge, every 14 days.) and you only got 4 or 8-hour passes
> off-unit, under strict conditions (could not be left alone at all, etc).

Flight Restrict ward operates a little different, but basically the same.
It can be overlooked with kids because of age reasons, but you REALLY
don't want someone in for drugs and psychiatric issues going off the deep
end because they can't have a smoke. You have to really torque someone off
in FRW to get yer smoking privs pulled, or be on a PEC just arrived.
(Yeah. They wouldn't let me smoke. I almost got really unpleasant when I
found out that I wasn't in there voluntarily.

> BTW...I don't remember it being an *airlock* into seclusion. More like a

Probably differences depend on hospital.

> The unit I was in had one, and ONLY one, entrance and exit, right by
> the nurse's station, in full view of the duty nurse. A cyberware scanner
> would be there. Also, it'd be locked at ALL times.

Yep. With something like a FRW, they'd probably have one at the ward door,
one at the elevator - usually the FRW is on it's own floor - and one at
the nurse's station downstairs.

> There would probably be at least one magically active
> > individual on staff every shift, and things could get really messy all
> > around for any individual stuck on the inside.
>
> What do you mean by that last sentence?

Shadowrunners are used to having a significant measure of control over
their immediate surroundings, so the restrictions of a ward are going to
drive them nuts. Magically active types would be around to prevent
magically active patients from doing some very nasty stuff to their
surroundings.

> Additional sec measures, by my guess: Magemasks would NOT be used.

Except in confinement cases, yes.

> Doesn't happen much, actually. Bedspace is too damn limited for MH
> sections to waste time with someone kept there so they can't talk. Echo,

True. Then again, I really didn't need to spend three days there, either,
but I did.

> And, yeah, you could escape...But it's simpler all around to just make
> progress in your treatment and be released with the many cheers, tears, and
> hugs that accompany such an occasion. It's actually a DAMN good feeling to
> get discharged successfully, and is one hell of a high, in an odd way. You
> realize that, oh, the 2nd day in.:-)

Count yourself lucky. I was just glad to be gone. =/

> Again, maybe cuz it was a kids unit, but I'd say the atmosphere was
> pretty good even in the highsec units. Very, very relaxed. So long as you
> didn't freak out, it was occasionally actually sort of fun to be there.:-)

FRW is structured. You have very little time to yourself. (This became a
problem because the root cause of my personal trip was the fact that I had
no privacy; at the time my bedroom was marked off by two walls and a
couch. The best part of the whole experience was having a door for two
nights.) If you're not in group, then you're elsewhere doing something.
They try to keep that upbeat thing going on, and it worked well enough.
What I didn't like - and refused to play - were the psychological
manipulation games by the staff. Staffers in an FRW are VERY good at
pitting one against another. They're also very professional about it;
it has to do more with finding out who did what than cruelty. (One of the
guys there was cool. Assloads of tattoos, rode a Harley, and taught me how
to take Blood Pressure readings.)

> Or, they may be there legitimately, as a paitent. Which would be a
> HELL of an adventure...getting mental treatment. Not normal, but definitely
> cool.

Without a SIN? Not too likely...

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 11:00:00 2001
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In a message dated 4/29/01 4:36:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:


> What I didn't like - and refused to play - were the psychological
> manipulation games by the staff. Staffers in an FRW are VERY good at
> pitting one against another. They're also very professional about it;
> it has to do more with finding out who did what than cruelty.

Let me echo that sentiment for every psych unit. The mindgames are
intense, during groups at least. By the time you're in bed, you can assume
they've done their best to make very sure everything you know, you doubt.
EVERYTHING, from religion on down.

(One of the
> guys there was cool. Assloads of tattoos, rode a Harley, and taught me how
> to take Blood Pressure readings.)

Hehe. Yeah, I know the type well; Ya learn a lot about weird things
from the staffer. Like how I learned how to take a pulse, identify gunshot
wounds, and other fun things, like doing my whole day, from the moment I woke
up til I fell asleep, BLIND! (A fun experience, yeah.)

> > Or, they may be there legitimately, as a paitent. Which would be a
> > HELL of an adventure...getting mental treatment. Not normal, but
> definitely
> > cool.
>
> Without a SIN? Not too likely...

Fakes are your friend...:-) Besides, how many runners d'ya think have
a psychologist?:-)

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/29/01 4:36:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What I didn't like - and
refused to play - were the psychological
<BR>manipulation games by the staff. Staffers in an FRW are VERY good at
<BR>pitting one against another. They're also very professional about it;
<BR>it has to do more with finding out who did what than
cruelty.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Let me echo that
sentiment for every psych unit. The mindgames are
<BR>intense, during groups at least. By the time you're in bed, you can assume
<BR>they've done their best to make very sure everything you know, you doubt.
<BR>EVERYTHING, from religion on down.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> (One of
the</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">guys there was cool. Assloads of tattoos, rode a Harley, and
taught me how
<BR>to take Blood Pressure readings.)</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hehe. Yeah, I know the type
well; Ya learn a lot about weird things
<BR>from the staffer. Like how I learned how to take a pulse, identify gunshot
<BR>wounds, and other fun things, like doing my whole day, from the moment I woke
<BR>up til I fell asleep, BLIND! (A fun experience, yeah.)
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Or, they may be
there legitimately, as a paitent. Which would be a
<BR>&gt; HELL of an adventure...getting mental treatment. Not normal, but
<BR>definitely
<BR>&gt; cool.
<BR>
<BR>Without a SIN? Not too likely...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Fakes are your
friend...:-) Besides, how many runners d'ya think have
<BR>a psychologist?:-)</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 11:30:01 2001
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:

<snippage>
> Besides, how many runners d'ya think have a psychologist?:-)

Not as many as need one. *shudder*

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 13:15:01 2001
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:04:21 EDT DemonPenta@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
> Fakes are your friend...:-) Besides, how many runners d'ya think
have
>a psychologist?:-)

Wasn't that a Billy Crystal movie? :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 14:40:25 2001
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In a message dated 4/29/01 1:20:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
writes:


> Wasn't that a Billy Crystal movie? :)

Hehe. Yeah, "Analyze This" gave me a few ideas.:-)

John

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/29/01 1:20:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
<BR>writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Wasn't that a Billy
Crystal movie? :)</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Hehe. Yeah, "Analyze This" gave me a few ideas.:-)
<BR>
<BR>John</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 19:05:01 2001
> OK, as part of my continuing series: 'Mental Health and Joe the
Disturbed
> Runner' (used to be a vague idea for a sourcebook covering medicine
(not just
> mental health, but that's a start) in SR, then I figured it'd never
fly at
> FASA), a question for you all:
Probably would not fly, seeing as a lot of medical information is
covered in Man and Machine (I find the vague references to the
Valkyrie remote surgery drone and quantum resonance imagine very
interesting). I could see the need for a Doc Wagon sourcebook, but I
don't think it would sell well. Then again, most of the SR players I
know are also rabid sourcebook collectors, myself included.

> What the hell would replace antidepressants in SR? What's the new
Prozac
> (...Zoloft, Paxil, whatever). Or, God help us, what's the latest
wannabe for
> ritalin?
IRL, there are 4 classes of antidepressants: Tricyclics, selective
serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), "atypical" antidepressants, and
MAO inhibitors. Without going too much into detail, they act on the
central nervous system by affecting either the reuptake or the release
of serotonin and norepinephrine. Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil are all
SSRIs, and are used because of the small amount of side effects (most
significant is headaches). Imipramine is an example of a tricyclic,
and they have more sedation and peripheral effects (Imipramine is also
used to treat bedwetting). "Atypical" antidepressants work by an
unknown mechanism (oh joy), and MAO inhibitors inhibit MAO (that was
redundant), which oxidizes most neurotransmitters. Some doctors also
prescribe benzodiazepines for depression (like Xanax or Valium), but I
don't see a logical reasoning behind it, and it probably does more
harm than good.

By the time 2050 rolls around, we will probably have drugs that are
more selective for serotonin, as well as a better understanding of
depression and the interactions in the brain. However, with the advent
of simsense and BTL, I could also see many people who can't or won't
get treatment, and instead start "self-medicating", much like the
cocaine addicts today. In fact, with BTL, there could be those who
have BTL-induced depression (similar to cocaine-induced depression). I
see depression to be a major problem in the Sixth World, and one that
we will be hard-pressed to cure, at least medically. Therapy groups
probably will take a MAJOR hit because of the UB fiasco, thus
compounding the problem. Maybe there will be a magical therapy regimen
to help a depressed person holistically. ASIST/simsense therapy could
work, but it would be highly experimental. Finally, I also see a
cyberware-induced depression (a sort of detachment effect).

Ritalin is basically an amphetamine (methylphenidate). I have major
problems with ADHD and Ritalin, but I have a couple of friends whose
quality of life has drastically improved using Ritalin, so I'm not one
to judge. Perhaps, in a more multimedia/eye candy world, ADHD would
actually be seen as an advantage, especially when interacting with the
Matrix. Then again maybe not.

> Furthermore, and this is also to see how many OTHER SR players have
> experience with it, yes....What's inpaitent mental health treatment
like? for
> kids?
This is out of my league, but I'm enjoying the discussion.

Hahns Shin, MS I
Budding cybersurgeon
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 19:25:01 2001
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In a message dated 4/29/01 7:13:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hahns_Shin@*******.com writes:


> Perhaps, in a more multimedia/eye candy world, ADHD would
> actually be seen as an advantage, especially when interacting with the
> Matrix. Then again maybe not.

Probably not. ADD (or ADHD) is a bitch and a half....concentration on
anything is a challenge. It's a disease even advertisers hate.:-)

John

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/29/01 7:13:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>Hahns_Shin@*******.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> Perhaps, in a more
multimedia/eye candy world, ADHD would
<BR>actually be seen as an advantage, especially when interacting with the
<BR>Matrix. Then again maybe not.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Probably not. ADD (or ADHD) is a bitch and a half....concentration on
<BR>anything is a challenge. It's a disease even advertisers hate.:-)
<BR>
<BR>John</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Sun Apr 29 19:25:06 2001
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In a message dated 4/29/01 7:13:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hahns_Shin@*******.com writes:


> This is out of my league, but I'm enjoying the discussion.
[on Mental Health]
I am to please.:-)

Now, for TOTAL geekdom, somebody translate your favorite psychmed
(Ritalin, Prozac, Zoloft, whatever) to Cannon Companion. How addictive is
Ritalin, anyway?:-)

John

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/29/01 7:13:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>Hahns_Shin@*******.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This is out of my league,
but I'm enjoying the discussion.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">[on Mental
Health]
<BR>I am to please.:-)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Now, for TOTAL
geekdom, somebody translate your favorite psychmed
<BR>(Ritalin, Prozac, Zoloft, whatever) to Cannon Companion. How addictive is
<BR>Ritalin, anyway?:-)
<BR>
<BR>John</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Mon Apr 30 15:00:01 2001
> Now, for TOTAL geekdom, somebody translate your favorite
psychmed
> (Ritalin, Prozac, Zoloft, whatever) to Cannon Companion. How
addictive is
> Ritalin, anyway?:-)
>
> John

Hmm. I think I can take a gander at this, though you must realize that
except in cases of abuse, medications are designed to bring a person
in an abnormal state (whether it is from a mental or physical illness)
to something approaching "normal" living, as dictated by society. When
a reasonably normal person (healthwise, anyway... shadowrunners are
not normal) takes medications that he/she shouldn't, a whole bunch of
strange side effects can and usually do occur. That being said...

Benzodiazepines (Valium/diazepam, Versed/midazolam,
Ativan/lorazepam) - This muscle relaxant class is normally used in
treating anxiety disorders, muscular disorders, sleep disorders, and
physical seizures. These drugs have been largely replaced by other
therapies, but still exist as an alternative treatment for anxiety and
sleep disorders. They are also the first line drug for status
epilepticus seizures and can be used to ease dump shock and simsense
seizures (it won't help any underlying mental attacks, but it will
calm the muscles). They have a slight amnesia effect, affecting short
term memory, and can cause confusion. Valium lasts for about 2 days,
while other benzodiazepines have a shorter duration. Effects: Unless
the character makes a Willpower (6) roll, +2 target number for each
time the character attempts a Knowledge, Technical, Magical, Language
and B/R tasks. -2 Reaction. It takes a Willpower (4) test to remember
any details during the period of the dose. However, the relaxed
muscles give a -1 bonus to ranged combat skills, but only when using
Take Aim or Called Shot. When used in Dump Shock, benzodiazepines
offer a +2 dice bonus to resist (reroll the dump shock damage test
using the +2 bonus). It may (GM discretion) be used to combat the
Phobia and Flashback flaws.
Addiction: 3 Mental
Edge: 10
Tolerance: None
Speed: 20 minutes (varies, but this is a good estimate)
Fix: varies with drug (4 days for Valium, less for other drugs)

Barbiturates (thiopental, phenobarbital, pentobarbital) - These are
hypnotic/sedative drugs that cause sedation, CNS depression, and
muscle relaxation. The general effect is sedation and respiratory
depression. Barbiturates are HIGHLY addictive and withdrawal symptoms
are more painful than even opiod addiction. Death due to overdose is
common with barbiturates due to its effect on respiration (OD users
stop breathing and go into a coma). Phenobarbital lasts for 2 days,
while pentobarbital lasts from 3 to 8 hours, and thiopental has an
extremely short (30 minute) duration.
Effects: +2 to all target numbers in addition to damage
Damage: 5D Stun
Addiction: 5 Mental
Edge: 2/10
Tolerance: 2
Speed: Immediate for thiopental, 10 minutes for others
Fix: 2 days

Prozac/fluoxetine (and other SSRIs Paxil/paroxetine and
Zoloft/sertraline) - Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are
commonly used in depression, in the theory that serotonin is the main
neurotransmitter that mediates "mood". Prozac is the most commonly
prescribed of this class (the others have varying doses and side
effects, but work the same way). It works in over half the population
in controlling morbid depression, and has very few side effects
compared to other antidepressants, thus contributing to its
popularity. Side effects may include nausea, headaches, and weight
loss. Although Prozac has a long half life (3 to 30 days!), the
patient must take it for several days in order to achieve a regular
steady state.
Effects: The damage is from the nausea and headaches that commonly
occur after administration. Provides +1 Willpower to resist Illusion
spells only. The patient must take the medication for a week before
feeling any effects.
Damage: 4M Stun (beginning of the day)
Addiction: 3 Mental
Edge: 50/50
Tolerance: 3
Speed: 1 day ingested
Fix: none

Ritalin (methylphenidate and other ADHD amphetamine derivatives:
Cylert/pemoline, Adipex-P/phentermine ) - In an ADHD patient, Ritalin
and other common amphetamines actually relax the hyperkinesia and
attenuate the short attention span associated with ADHD. However, in
normal patients, amphetamines stimulates the nervous system by
increasing the amount of presynaptic amines, such as dopamine and
norepinephrine. They cause increased sensory stimulation, increased
awareness, and feelings of self-confidence and euphoria. However, they
are highly addictive, and tolerance can easily build up. Amphetamines
can last for days in the system, but usually the users "crash" after a
period of hours.
Effects: For 1d6 hours, the character has +1 Quickness, +1 Willpower,
and +1d6 initiative. This is followed by a 1d6 "crash" time in which
the user has -1 to all mental skills and +1 to all target numbers.
Note, that if the character has the Oblivious flaw, under GM
discretion, the character may take Ritalin to temporarily remove the
flaw (in which case, the bonuses do not apply, but the crash period
still does). More "powerful" amphetamines include Kamikaze and Jazz.
Addiction: 4 Mental, 3 Physical
Edge: 2/10
Tolerance: 3
Speed: Immediate if inhaled, 10 minutes if ingested
Fix: 4 days

I am NOT responsible for any "real life" usage of this information.
This is for recreational purposes only, specifically, only for the
game of Shadowrun. In real life, see your doctor before starting or
discontinuing any medication. That being said, I can convert more
drugs into SR equivalents if you are curious. This is only a small
fraction of the US Pharmacoepia.

On another note: Fun with Atropine! Atropine is commonly used in cases
of neurotoxin poisoning, whether from insecticides, nerve gas, or
mushrooms. That's right, it can be used to combat Green Ring and some
other nerve gases. Basically, it does the exact opposite effect on the
muscarinic receptors in your body that neurotoxins stimulate. So, I
propose a "therapeutic" dosage of atropine to combat Green Ring 3/8.
It does 3S Stun damage, but it reduces target number penalties against
the character due to nerve gas/neurotoxins to +1. It must be injected
within (Body) minutes in order to take effect.

Note that the Street Drugs on p.121 of Man and Machine are prototypes
for drugs in common use today. Bliss is basically heroin or morphine,
Burn is alcohol (though I would probably reduce the damage for lesser
"dosages"), Cram is amphetamine/methamphetamine (though truly, the
effects can last for days), Novacoke is cocaine/crack, and Zen is
probably LSD, THC, or a similar hallucinogen.

Hahns Shin, MS I
Budding cybersurgeon
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Mon Apr 30 19:25:02 2001
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In a message dated 4/30/01 3:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hahns_Shin@*******.com writes:

I agree with just about EVERY stat, cept this one.

> Effects: The damage is from the nausea and headaches that commonly
> occur after administration. Provides +1 Willpower to resist Illusion
> spells only. The patient must take the medication for a week before
> feeling any effects.

Nahh...Not +1 Willpower to resist illusion. +1 willpower vs. torture
is more like it.

> Damage: 4M Stun (beginning of the day)

This is with Paxil, but end of day is more like it.

> ddiction: 3 Mental
> Edge: 50/50
> Tolerance: 3
> Speed: 1 day ingested
> e

Good....Mostly.:-) 1 day doesn't sound right though; Paxil, Zoloft,
etc...Once you've started, you can skip a day (or, least, I can), with no
problems....Not fun for more time, but them's the breaks. I would say....3
hour speed.

John


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/30/01 3:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>Hahns_Shin@*******.com writes:
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree with just
about EVERY stat, cept this one.
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Effects: The damage is
from the nausea and headaches that commonly
<BR>occur after administration. Provides +1 Willpower to resist Illusion
<BR>spells only. The patient must take the medication for a week before
<BR>feeling any effects.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Nahh...Not +1 Willpower to
resist illusion. +1 willpower vs. torture
<BR>is more like it.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Damage: 4M Stun (beginning of the day)</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is with Paxil,
but end of day is more like it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">A<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">ddiction: 3 Mental
<BR>Edge: 50/50
<BR>Tolerance: 3
<BR>Speed: 1 day ingested
<BR>Fix: non</BLOCKQUOTE>e</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"
SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>Good....Mostly.:-) 1 day doesn't sound right though; Paxil, Zoloft,
<BR>etc...Once you've started, you can skip a day (or, least, I can), with no
<BR>problems....Not fun for more time, but them's the breaks. I would say....3
<BR>hour speed.
<BR>
<BR>John
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 04:00:01 2001
From: "Hahns Shin" <Hahns_Shin@*******.com>
> I could see the need for a Doc Wagon sourcebook, but I
> don't think it would sell well. Then again, most of the SR players I
> know are also rabid sourcebook collectors, myself included.

A Doc Wagon sourcebook would proberly sell as well as the Lone Star
sourcebook (or maybe it had something to do with the author). If
handeled the right way it could be a very good idea.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inte.tele.dk/l-hansen
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 04:20:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> A Doc Wagon sourcebook would proberly sell as well
as the Lone Star sourcebook (or maybe it had something
to do with the author). If handeled the right way it
could be a very good idea.
> Lars

Hey, man, a book about me would see like wildfire,
don'cha know.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @*****.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 05:10:01 2001
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
> Hey, man, a book about me would see like wildfire,
> don'cha know.

But how about a book about your Wagon, would that seel just as well?

New from Wizkids: The Doc and his Wagon sourcebook, and invaluable
sourcebook for Shadowrun!

Lars (no smiley, I'm dead serious)
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inte.tele.dk/l-hansen
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 05:20:01 2001
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Hahns Shin wrote:

<Snip a good overview of antidepressants>

> Ritalin is basically an amphetamine (methylphenidate). I have major
> problems with ADHD and Ritalin, but I have a couple of friends whose
> quality of life has drastically improved using Ritalin, so I'm not one
> to judge. Perhaps, in a more multimedia/eye candy world, ADHD would
> actually be seen as an advantage, especially when interacting with the
> Matrix. Then again maybe not.

Ritalin is also far from the only option. Cylert is another, and there are
(I think) one or two others. The biggest drawback to Ritalin is it's
dosage period; take it every 4 hours or so. The problem is, one of the
common symptoms of ADD and ADHD are absentmindedness. So you have to
remember to take the drug that helps you remember, when you're least
capable of remembering to take it.

Cylert can be taken once per day, making it a little easier to handle all
around.

As for an advantage in the Matrix, it depends on how much of ADHD is
chemically affecting other than the brain. If it keeps certain chemicals
flowing, anyone with ADHD will have a hard time jacking in for any length
of time. ADD Inattentive Type, on the other hand, would work quite well.
It's one of the reasons I'm online 16 of 24 hours in a day. =)

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 05:25:01 2001
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:

> Probably not. ADD (or ADHD) is a bitch and a half....concentration on
> anything is a challenge. It's a disease even advertisers hate.:-)

Not necessarily. There's been studies that have hinted at a possible
connection between ADD and high-form Autism, mostly due to some similarity
of symptoms and effects. Most people with ADD have serious issues
concentrating all day long, unless it's something they're interested in.

Example: When I lived with my parents, we were living in my Grandmother's
basement due to a stroke she had a few years back. I'd be sitting watching
TV on the couch with headphones late at night, and my parents would every
once in a while get up to get some water or go to the bathroom or
whatever. The bathroom was to my right, their bedroom was to my left, and
they would have to walk in front of me, between myself and the television,
in order to get to the bathroom. There was no other way to do it.

Usually, I'd be watching something worth watching, and wouldn't even
notice they were up until they came out of the bathroom. EVEN THOUGH THEY
WALKED RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.

This wasn't an isolated occurence either, it happened on average once per
week, sometimes more. After a while, I just gave up trying to figure out
how I could miss someone walking in front of me.

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 06:15:10 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Tue, 01 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> > A Doc Wagon sourcebook would proberly sell as well
> as the Lone Star sourcebook
>
> Hey, man, a book about me would see like wildfire,
> don'cha know.

It'd only appeal to two kinds of people: those who are cold but can afford
US$20 firelighters that have "DocWagon" on the cover; and those who believe
in voodoo and think that such a firelighter might make a good substitute
for a doll.

;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 07:05:02 2001
On Tue, 1 May 2001, Gurth wrote:

> It'd only appeal to two kinds of people: those who are cold but can afford
> US$20 firelighters that have "DocWagon" on the cover; and those who believe
> in voodoo and think that such a firelighter might make a good substitute
> for a doll.

You're forgetting one thing. If it's made of soft paper, there'd be a
third group of people who'd buy it...

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 07:45:01 2001
> Hey, man, a book about me would see like wildfire,
don'cha know.

*Doc' thumps his head against his desk...*

Can't type, can't spell. Maybe I'M on those funky antidepressants...:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @*****.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 07:45:03 2001
> But how about a book about your Wagon, would that
seel just as well?
>
> New from Wizkids: The Doc and his Wagon sourcebook,
and invaluable sourcebook for Shadowrun!
> Lars (no smiley, I'm dead serious)

*lol*

Suppose it depends on just what kind of wagon I have.

Hmmm...anyone wanna lend me a Ferrari modded up with
armour, nitro injectors and an assault cannon or two? :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 07:50:01 2001
> > Hey, man, a book about me would see like wildfire,
don'cha know.
>
> It'd only appeal to two kinds of people: those who
are cold but can afford US$20 firelighters that have
"DocWagon" on the cover; and those who believe in
voodoo and think that such a firelighter might make a
good substitute for a doll.

*Doc' falls down, howling with laughter...*

Man, why don't I get this kinda respect on the other
lists I'm on? They're always getting PO'ed with me -
think I'm being SERIOUS, if you can believe it. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 07:50:04 2001
> > It'd only appeal to two kinds of people: those who
are cold but can afford US$20 firelighters that have
"DocWagon" on the cover; and those who believe in
voodoo and think that such a firelighter might make a
good substitute for a doll.
>
> You're forgetting one thing. If it's made of soft
paper, there'd be a third group of people who'd buy
it...

*lol*

I hope it's a three-ply sourcebook, Keith. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 13:35:01 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Tue, 01 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> Man, why don't I get this kinda respect on the other
> lists I'm on? They're always getting PO'ed with me -
> think I'm being SERIOUS, if you can believe it. ;)

Rest assured we never take you seriously :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....
Date: Tue May 1 20:10:01 2001
> > Man, why don't I get this kinda respect on the
other lists I'm on? They're always getting PO'ed with
me - think I'm being SERIOUS, if you can believe it.
;)
>
> Rest assured we never take you seriously :)
> Gurth@******.nl -

And I appreciate it.

Really, I do.

:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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