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Message no. 1
From: shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:02:18 +0200
A few friends and myself recently formed a group called 'Role-players
Anonymous' to promote role-playing and try and dispel the negativity
surrounding it. This weekend I came across the first late 40 year old
example of why stupid people should not breed or have access to media of any
kind as they seem to believe the first thing they hear on a subject and then
completely close their puny little minds to anything else on the matter.

I was under the impression that people had in the last few years become more
open minded and where no longer fooled by glory-mongers like Pat Pulling and
her ilk. Anyway, a friend informs me that instead, the whole
anti-role-playing thing is taking off again. Does anyone know anything
about this and where I can find out what the idiots are doing now so that we
can be prepared next time we face Mr van der Merve and his arm waving, wide
eyed rumour-spreaders?

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Message no. 2
From: GuayII@***.com (GuayII@***.com)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 04:00:01 -0400
In a message dated Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:02:18 +0200, "Shannon Buys"
<shannon@*****.co.za> writes:

>Anyway, a friend informs me that instead, the whole
>anti-role-playing thing is taking off again.  Does anyone know anything
>about this and where I can find out what the idiots are doing now so that we
>can be prepared next time we face Mr van der Merve and his arm waving, wide
>eyed rumour-spreaders?

Roleplaying has gotten a bit of a boost from the movies that have come out recently (Well,
D&D/Fantasy settings at least).

The only anti-RPG sentiment that I can think of off hand is that some experts have claimed
that the Washington DC area sniper is "probably a loner who plays D&D."
(read that after the news about the tarot card was released... Ugh.)

Cash
Message no. 3
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:02:55 +0100
At 04:00 AM 14/10/2002 -0400, Cash wrote:
> >Anyway, a friend informs me that instead, the whole
> >anti-role-playing thing is taking off again. Does anyone know anything
> >about this and where I can find out what the idiots are doing now so that we
> >can be prepared next time we face Mr van der Merve and his arm waving, wide
> >eyed rumour-spreaders?
>
>The only anti-RPG sentiment that I can think of off hand is that some
>experts have claimed that the Washington DC area sniper is "probably a
>loner who plays D&D." (read that after the news about the tarot card was
>released... Ugh.)

All I've heard is the idea that he's had military sniper training, but I
don't buy that, he'd be easier to find if that was the case. (I'm assuming
that the american military keep records on that sort of thing (and that the
same goes for immigration))


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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"Yes Kate, I want you to become a prostitute."
Blackadder II (Bells)
Message no. 4
From: john@********.net (John Jacobsma)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:56:24 -0500
GuayII@***.com writes:
> some experts have claimed that the Washington DC area sniper is
> "probably a loner who plays D&D."

Things that make me go "hmmmm": How does a loner play a game like D&D? Is he
the GM, or the players? Hmmmm...

--
Later,
John

"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."
-- Jules de Gautier
Message no. 5
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:44:34 +0200
According to John Jacobsma, on Tue, 15 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> Things that make me go "hmmmm": How does a loner play a game like D&D?
Is
> he the GM, or the players? Hmmmm...

Ah, but they'll say he's a loner who always had imaginary friends when he
was younger...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know all this and more
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 05:29:46 -0700 (PDT)
--- John Jacobsma <john@********.net> wrote:
> GuayII@***.com writes:
> > some experts have claimed that the Washington DC
> area sniper is
> > "probably a loner who plays D&D."
>
> Things that make me go "hmmmm": How does a loner
> play a game like D&D? Is he
> the GM, or the players? Hmmmm...
>
> --
> Later,
> John

Ding ding ding ding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Give this man a prize and promote him to general in
the war against idiots! :)

"loners who play roleplaying games" must be reading a
whole lot more into solitaire than the rest of us.

It is situations like these (the whole DC sniper
problem) that get me frothing mad at the American
media. And the American government. And American law
enforcement. The moment something departs from the
accepted norm of human behavior, they are all looking
for something to blame, or someone to blame. I think
was the great philosopher, Chris Rock, who said, "Why
can't they just be f#*%ing crazy!?"

Personally, I'd like to see an RPG built around the
wholesale hunting and killing of stupid people. And
then...and then...yea!...it could be made into a
LARP...with constumes...and guns!! And
then...well...*pant pant*...We could actually issue
limited hunting licenses, you know, just as a game
prop. Oh, and real bullets...as a prop...yea, that's
the ticket. And then...and then...*wanders off
muttering insanely, gibbering slightly, with a glazed
crazy look* ;p

When they catch me, I can say the rampant stupidity in
my country among the so called journalists, profilers,
and law makers drove me right off the deep end. Not
to mention all the bigots who somehow think that
religion is a mandate for hate and prejudice. Go
America! *sigh*

Can a geat big kick up side the head be construed as
patriotism, if it is born of a desire to see your
country stop looking silly? ;)

======Korishinzo
--really fed up with the latest media
frenzy...obviously


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
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Message no. 7
From: mcuthbertson@***.co.za (malcolm)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:00:57 +0200
i think you're talking about badd , or to the non-ancient rp'er bothered
about dungeons and dragons ,

but it tends to take form in open bigotry , i think most constitutions allow
freedom of association , freedom of speech , and freedom of religeon
this both protects and damns roleplayers unfortunetly
see we are entitled to freely practice whatever you want to on your weekly
session say violent and repulsive things , even talk about gratuitous
violence slaying foes etc , but the same law allows these bigoted people to
also say whatever they think,

the problem comes where their rights infringe upon yours , or your rights
infringe upon theirs ,unfortunetly when it comes to law "money tips her
scales again" , rp'ers tend to think as individuals and bible bashers tend
to be to shit scared to deviate from gosepl so value community and will join
any "quest" to put an end to "evi" take the rock n' roll eral , so
they will
have better lawyers , how do you prosecute such libel as satanic , if you
really wanted to anyway ? route it down to it's source , hell anyone that is
already doing the satanic hobby laughs it off , anyone listening to their
local biblebasher won't even think about finding out about it , and those
with an open mind might even begin to think well lets see what it is about .
does it therefore do the hobby harm ? yes and no

we often talk of firearms in this newsgroup ,consider the nations of
australia or even UK (yes lady jestyr we know your down under ) were
firearms are restricted , now consider south africa and it's current
leanings toward a gun free south africa , this affects hobbies also such as
target shooting , now consider that 1/3 of the medals won by S.A. in the
commonwealth games came from target shooting , it is in itself a harmless
hobby and should it be restricted simply because some irresponsible elements
behave in a reprehensible manner using a similar piece of equipment (BTW i
play AD&D first shadowrun 2nd ) ?
we must simply present a better image , diversity is it's own reward .

KANNIEMEEERNIE, Korperaal
"overspecialise and you breed in weakness" the major - ghost in the shell
Message no. 8
From: shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:51:19 +0200
Malcolm wrote:
firearms are restricted , now consider south africa and it's current
leanings toward a gun free south africa ,
-------------
Huh?!? When did this happen?
Message no. 9
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:24:46 +0100
At 05:29 AM 15/10/2002 -0700, Korishinzo wrote:
> > > some experts have claimed that the Washington DC
> > area sniper is
> > > "probably a loner who plays D&D."
> >
> > Things that make me go "hmmmm": How does a loner
> > play a game like D&D? Is he
> > the GM, or the players? Hmmmm...
>
>Ding ding ding ding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Give this man a prize and promote him to general in
>the war against idiots! :)
>
>"loners who play roleplaying games" must be reading a
>whole lot more into solitaire than the rest of us.

What do you mean? Solitaire's full of depth!

>It is situations like these (the whole DC sniper
>problem) that get me frothing mad at the American
>media. And the American government. And American law
>enforcement. The moment something departs from the
>accepted norm of human behavior, they are all looking
>for something to blame, or someone to blame. I think
>was the great philosopher, Chris Rock, who said, "Why
>can't they just be f#*%ing crazy!?"

It's not a situation that's unique to the US unfortunately, it's
spreading... and so of course are stupid people.

>Can a geat big kick up side the head be construed as
>patriotism, if it is born of a desire to see your
>country stop looking silly? ;)

See the quote at the bottom of the .sig... I think that means it's okay :-)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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"Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious, according to Oscar Wilde"
The Rock
Message no. 10
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:05:33 +0100
At 08:00 AM 14/10/2002 +0200, KANNIEMEEERNIE, Korperaal wrote:
>we often talk of firearms in this newsgroup ,consider the nations of
>australia or even UK (yes lady jestyr we know your down under ) were
>firearms are restricted , now consider south africa and it's current
>leanings toward a gun free south africa , this affects hobbies also such as
>target shooting , now consider that 1/3 of the medals won by S.A. in the
>commonwealth games came from target shooting , it is in itself a harmless
>hobby and should it be restricted simply because some irresponsible elements
>behave in a reprehensible manner using a similar piece of equipment

It's seriously annoying that. I have to say first of all that about the
most important part of my political philosophy is that I'm against banning
things, now I'll admit that I'm in favour of restricting access to things
like guns and such, I'm not after a position where anyone can do exactly
what they want no matter the consequences but I do think that if a
reasonably responsible adult who has an awareness of the dangers and
responsibilities they're taking on when they do it wishes to go to a firing
range and shoot targets until he/she finds it difficult to rotate their
wrists the next morning I don't have a problem with that. If they want to
take their gun out and shoot cans and bottles in a field, fair enough if
they have permission.
I had no interest in shooting handguns until they were banned here, as soon
as I lost that element of choice I was gutted. it didn't help that it meant
we had to have the Luger my Great Grandfather captured in WWI deactivated,
it was almost sacrilegious, the action of that weapon was a gorgeous piece
of engineering, globbing it all up with weld really galled me.

But enough of that and trying desperately to fight back to topic...
I'm not sure if they're urban myths or not but I recall stories of for
example the GM who killed off his player's characters and having hidden in
the bathroom found them hacking through the door with an axe. As I say I
don't know if this is a myth or whether it actually happened but this sort
of thing, even if it's untrue, is the equivalent for us of Dunblaine or
Waco for example.
Granted if they're urban myths then noone died but...


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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"Just your standard issue "Big-Gun"..."
Ghost in the Shell
Message no. 11
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:41:21 -0500
I have been watching the news and reading the paper and am VERY concerned
about the term they have been using to describe the chicken-drek shooter in
D.C. He is NOT a sniper! He is not that good. Having only an 80% kill ratio
from 200-300 meters isn't very impressive. My units standards are higher
than that, and none of us are snipers. The term 'sniper' gives this dink an
image that is one of respect...he isn't worth that. At best, 'shooter' would
be a better description. Taker away the cool titles, and you take away some
of the notoriety that this a-hole craves. Take away the title, and you
weaken him. The media has to stop empowering the criminals, and start
relaying the facts responsibly!

Lunatec
Message no. 12
From: snake.eyes@***.net (Snake Eyes)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:39:26 -0700
At 01:41 PM 10/16/2002 -0500, Lunatec wrote:

>I have been watching the news and reading the paper and am VERY concerned
>about the term they have been using to describe the chicken-drek shooter in
>D.C. He is NOT a sniper! He is not that good. Having only an 80% kill ratio
>from 200-300 meters isn't very impressive.

[SNIP]

Although this guy certainly doesn't qualify as a "Sniper" (with a capital
"S"), my impression is that they have latched on to the term "sniper"
because he seems to follow an M.O. consistent with the lay person's
understanding of that term in the popular culture: He lies in wait
(perhaps stalking his target first), usually fires a single rifle shot from
a distant, concealed position, and then he vanishes. If he was unloading a
full SMG clip from a moving vehicle, or walking up behind folks and hitting
them point-blank with a sawed-off shotgun, they would undoubtedly be
calling him something else.

Also, from my understanding, most of his targets have been engaged from a
range of 50-150 meters (in fact, his most recent was only 30 meters away)
-- certainly not in the realm of what would be considered a long-range
"Sniper" of the military variety. We all know this really doesn't indicate
any more skill than is required to graduate most basic infantry training
programs -- but, given that most shootings are of the up-close-and-personal
variety, it does more or less satisfy the "distance" requirement of the
layman's definition outlined above.

~ Snake Eyes

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______________________________________________________________________

"Hey, at least I'm not a troll!"
-- Slogan on T-shirt worn by
my ghoul/ex-merc PC.
______________________________________________________________________
Message no. 13
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:16:34 +0200
According to Danyeal De La Luna, on Wed, 16 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> I have been watching the news and reading the paper and am VERY concerned
> about the term they have been using to describe the chicken-drek shooter
> in D.C. He is NOT a sniper! He is not that good. Having only an 80% kill
> ratio from 200-300 meters isn't very impressive. My units standards are
> higher than that, and none of us are snipers.

I think you're confusing the terms "sniper" and "sharpshooter." A
sniper is
someone who shoots from a concealed position like this guy does, while a
sharpshooter is someone who's a very good shot. That most snipers are
sharpshooters as well is simply because it's very handy for their profession to
be both :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know all this and more
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:48:20 +1000 (EST)
--- Shannon Buys <shannon@*****.co.za> wrote: > A few
>Does
> anyone know anything
> about this and where I can find out what the idiots
> are doing now so that we
> can be prepared next time we face Mr van der Merve
> and his arm waving, wide
> eyed rumour-spreaders?
>
Not that It'll help the situation.... tell them all
the rumours are true & warn them that they'll be the
next sacrifice at the feast of the "knights of the
dinner table" If they don't shut their fraggin' big
fat mouth. (GZ)

http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
Message no. 15
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:51:22 +1000 (EST)
--- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote: > According to
John Jacobsma, on Tue, 15 Oct 2002 the
> word on the street was...
>
> > Things that make me go "hmmmm": How does a loner
> play a game like D&D? Is
> > he the GM, or the players? Hmmmm...
>
> Ah, but they'll say he's a loner who always had
> imaginary friends when he
> was younger...
>
You mean my imaginary/real life friend "drop dead
fred" isn't real? (GZ)

http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
Message no. 16
From: mcuthbertson@***.co.za (malcolm)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:47:49 +0200
not yet shannon but give em half a inch , someone else commented on
restricted access to firearms . in S.A. it is a grueling 6 week wait while
both firearm and applicants current id doc are tracked down (this assumes
smooth running) anything longer is expected , if the weapon is viewed as
more dangerous than the public should possess(semi auto rifles etc) forget
it without a sportsmans ,traders or collectors licence (which aren't that
easy to come by either)

"the metroplex where life is cheap ,time is money ,and death is available at
negotiable hourly rates " sinister dexter - 2000AD



> Malcolm wrote:
> firearms are restricted , now consider south africa and it's current
> leanings toward a gun free south africa ,
> -------------
> Huh?!? When did this happen?
Message no. 17
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:51:18 +0100
At 01:41 PM 16/10/2002 -0500, Lunatec wrote:
>I have been watching the news and reading the paper and am VERY concerned
>about the term they have been using to describe the chicken-drek shooter in
>D.C. He is NOT a sniper! He is not that good. Having only an 80% kill ratio
>from 200-300 meters isn't very impressive. My units standards are higher
>than that, and none of us are snipers. The term 'sniper' gives this dink an
>image that is one of respect...he isn't worth that. At best, 'shooter' would
>be a better description. Taker away the cool titles, and you take away some
>of the notoriety that this a-hole craves. Take away the title, and you
>weaken him. The media has to stop empowering the criminals, and start
>relaying the facts responsibly!

It's true that he doesn't make the grade in the military if he is trying to
kill and that range is accurate, I haven't seen enough info on it. But is
"Sniper" a measure of skill? or is it a descriptor of tactics?
I would suggest that a sniper is not someone who puts ten consecutive
rounds into a half inch diameter circle at 500 yards, I would term those
people as marksmen.
I would suggest that a sniper is someone who makes attacks from concealment
against opponents who are unaware of his/her presence. and does so (almost)
exclusively.
(How accurate either of those definitions are I can't be sure, I haven't
checked. But you get the idea.)
By these definitions he(she?) is a sniper.

However I do agree that the publicity given to a lot of criminals "feeds" them.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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"Wierd, I always feel more comfy in a dress! I've got a plan - and its as
hot as my pants!"
Blackadder II (Bells)
Message no. 18
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:11:42 -0500
> It's true that he doesn't make the grade in the military if he is
> trying to
> kill and that range is accurate, I haven't seen enough info on it. But is
> "Sniper" a measure of skill? or is it a descriptor of tactics?
> I would suggest that a sniper is not someone who puts ten consecutive
> rounds into a half inch diameter circle at 500 yards, I would term those
> people as marksmen.
> I would suggest that a sniper is someone who makes attacks from
> concealment
> against opponents who are unaware of his/her presence. and does
> so (almost)
> exclusively.
> (How accurate either of those definitions are I can't be sure, I haven't
> checked. But you get the idea.)
> By these definitions he(she?) is a sniper.
>
> However I do agree that the publicity given to a lot of criminals
> "feeds" them.
>
>
> --
> Lone Eagle
> "Hold up lads, I got an idea."

Lone Eagle,
Unfortunately, I have to concede to your logic...but thank you for the
empathy on the media issue. I only hope that when they catch this freak of
nature, that they unceremoniously shoot him/her in the back of the head like
a rabid dog, and not give them any more media coverage. I would hate for
this person to get caught, get convicted for a life term, write a book, then
make a ton of cash and get their name in the history books. Immortality
should only be for the honorable (or Honourable, just to appease the Brits
here :)). I* am tired of mass murderers, serial killers and other sundry
sphincters of the shallow end of the gene pool getting the notoriety, and
not the true Hero's of our time.

"Long Live the Fighters!", Muad'Dib


Lunatec
Message no. 19
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:01:27 +1000 (EST)
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> wrote:

> At 05:29 AM 15/10/2002 -0700, Korishinzo wrote:
> > > > some experts have claimed that the Washington
> DC
> > > area sniper is
> > > > "probably a loner who plays D&D."
> > >
> > > Things that make me go "hmmmm": How does a loner
> > > play a game like D&D? Is he
> > > the GM, or the players? Hmmmm...
> >
> >Ding ding ding ding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Give this man a prize and promote him to general in
> >the war against idiots! :)
> >
> >"loners who play roleplaying games" must be reading
> a
> >whole lot more into solitaire than the rest of us.
>
> What do you mean? Solitaire's full of depth!
>
> >It is situations like these (the whole DC sniper
> >problem) that get me frothing mad at the American
> >media. And the American government. And American
> law
> >enforcement. The moment something departs from the
> >accepted norm of human behavior, they are all
> looking
> >for something to blame, or someone to blame. I
> think
> >was the great philosopher, Chris Rock, who said,
> "Why
> >can't they just be f#*%ing crazy!?"
>
> It's not a situation that's unique to the US
> unfortunately, it's
> spreading... and so of course are stupid people.

Too right, Australia has now borne the brunt of the
Bali bombing, & just yesterday 2 people were
killed/shot by a disgruntled person at a
university,for no apparent reason, all in space of
aabout a week or so.I sincerely hope you find &
prosecute this sniper (to all the Yanks out there), as
there is no rime or reason as to why innocents should
be slain by someone so perverse & brutal in nature.

>
> >Can a geat big kick up side the head be construed
> as
> >patriotism, if it is born of a desire to see your
> >country stop looking silly? ;)
>
> See the quote at the bottom of the .sig... I think
> that means it's okay :-)
>
>
> --
> Lone Eagle
> "Hold up lads, I got an idea."
>
> www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is
> under construction
>
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>
> "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious, according
> to Oscar Wilde"
>
> The Rock
>

I'm sorry as I'm uneducated in regards to Oscar Wild
( but I do know the Rock is an extemely intelligent
man, especilly for a wrestler), so I must be a viscous
person in regards to Patriotism. (GZ)

http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
Message no. 20
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:21:42 +1000 (EST)
--- Danyeal De La Luna <lunatec@*****.com> wrote: > I
have been watching the news and reading the paper
> and am VERY concerned
> about the term they have been using to describe the
> chicken-drek shooter in
> D.C. He is NOT a sniper! He is not that good.
> Having only an 80% kill ratio
> from 200-300 meters isn't very impressive. My units
> standards are higher
> than that, and none of us are snipers. The term
> 'sniper' gives this dink an
> image that is one of respect...he isn't worth that.
> At best, 'shooter' would
> be a better description. Taker away the cool titles,
> and you take away some
> of the notoriety that this a-hole craves. Take away
> the title, and you
> weaken him. The media has to stop empowering the
> criminals, and start
> relaying the facts responsibly!
>
> Lunatec
>
>

I do not wish to offend anyone on such a sensitive
issue, your point about his title as a "shooter" is
dually noted & I agree up to a point, He is engaging
in sniping though whether he is 1 km or even 10 mtrs
(yes I consider you sniping If you aim to shoot
someone in heart,head,etc even with a pistol), he is
still lining up/sighting his target for a kill
shot,intent, not the usual discharging a firearm into
someones general area of affect (such as torso) in the
hope that the wound is mortal IMO signature of a
shooter. Humble sympathys, (GZ)

http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
Message no. 21
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:49:50 +0100
At 08:47 AM 17/10/2002 +0200, Malcolm wrote:
>not yet shannon but give em half a inch , someone else commented on
>restricted access to firearms . in S.A. it is a grueling 6 week wait while
>both firearm and applicants current id doc are tracked down (this assumes
>smooth running) anything longer is expected , if the weapon is viewed as
>more dangerous than the public should possess(semi auto rifles etc) forget
>it without a sportsmans ,traders or collectors licence (which aren't that
>easy to come by either)

This doesn't seem that grueling to me, compare that to what's available
over here; Shotguns limited to a three round capacity, (2 in the belly, one
in the pipe). Handguns, forget it pal. Rifles I'm not sure about but...
But hey, Gun laws are better than the law of the gun.

>"the metroplex where life is cheap ,time is money ,and death is available at
>negotiable hourly rates " sinister dexter - 2000AD

But ammunition still costs the beans :-)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+

"Oh shut up Bernard."
Blackadder II (Bells)
Message no. 22
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:38:32 -0500
> At 08:47 AM 17/10/2002 +0200, Malcolm wrote:
> >not yet shannon but give em half a inch , someone else commented on
> >restricted access to firearms . in S.A. it is a grueling 6 week
> wait while
> >both firearm and applicants current id doc are tracked down (this assumes
> >smooth running) anything longer is expected , if the weapon is viewed as
> >more dangerous than the public should possess(semi auto rifles
> etc) forget
> >it without a sportsmans ,traders or collectors licence (which aren't that
> >easy to come by either)
>
> This doesn't seem that grueling to me, compare that to what's available
> over here; Shotguns limited to a three round capacity, (2 in the
> belly, one
> in the pipe). Handguns, forget it pal. Rifles I'm not sure about but...
> But hey, Gun laws are better than the law of the gun.
>
> >"the metroplex where life is cheap ,time is money ,and death is
> available at
> >negotiable hourly rates " sinister dexter - 2000AD
>
> But ammunition still costs the beans :-)
>
>
> --
> Lone Eagle

Alright, here's my American take on this subject. The public doesn't need
weaponry. Period! That need is taken care of by local, state, national, and
federal law enforcement/military. It is a stupid argument that the public
needs to be armed to protect itself. In the US Constitution it states "The
right to bear arms", but that is meant for militia's...i.e. National Guard,
not the common man/woman/other. That being said, a federal id needs to be
established that tracks all citizens and their criminal records. On top of
that, ALL weapons (firearms) need to be registered, like a car, and tracked
so that the Police and Emergency teams know what they are dealing with at
all times. It will also help with the gang problems etc by being able to cut
off supplies to the undesirables. You should need a permit to buy ammo and
receive a limit to the amount that you can possess. These permits would be
good for only 1 purchase, and a waiting period needs to be enforced...if you
need a weapon in a hurry, then the question is Why? The only people that
need weapons in a hurry are those that should not have them. Home
protection? Bulldrek! I have 2 very large dogs and a baseball bat. I can get
to anyone that tried to get in before they have a chance to hurt me or my
family. I also have 911. "An armed public is a polite public" is bulldrek
too. An armed public is a violent public. If you are carrying a weapon, you
are more likely to use it than if you do not. That is simple logic. Who
cares if the other person has one, if you know that they do, they already
have it out and aimed at you, if you don't then you have yours out aimed at
them. Doesn't solve the problem. As it stands, right now I can go to
Wal-Mart and buy a shotgun cash, there is nothing I have to show except that
I have proof of age, ammo, and a hacksaw...I can then go to the offending
persons house, blow their head off and ditch the gun in any of Minnesota's
10,000 lakes and never get caught. That is what the media's "Sniper" is
proving. The laws are wrong and need to be adjusted to meet the demands of
the year 2002.

Lunatec
Message no. 23
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:42:00 -0500
> > "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious, according
> > to Oscar Wilde"
> >
> > The Rock
> >
>
> I'm sorry as I'm uneducated in regards to Oscar Wild
> ( but I do know the Rock is an extemely intelligent
> man, especilly for a wrestler), so I must be a viscous
> person in regards to Patriotism. (GZ)

He was referring to the movie "The Rock" starring Sean Connery

Lunatec
Message no. 24
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
While this is rapidly entering the world of offtopic debates I had to drop
a few comments in.

FYI for what it's worth I'm Canadian, we have lots of gun laws that really
don't change anything which are similar to what you're suggesting.

>
> Alright, here's my American take on this subject. The public doesn't need
> weaponry. Period! That need is taken care of by local, state, national, and
> federal law enforcement/military. It is a stupid argument that the public
> needs to be armed to protect itself. In the US Constitution it states "The
> right to bear arms", but that is meant for militia's...i.e. National Guard,
> not the common man/woman/other.

Actually it would be redundant to put in the right to bear arms for a
military - which is what you're interpreting it to mean. The people who
wrote the constitution were probably more than a little paranoid about
getting taken back over and wanted to ensure that it would be hard for
some sneaky person to take away their defense before betraying them to the
British.


> That being said, a federal id needs to be
> established that tracks all citizens and their criminal records. On top of
> that, ALL weapons (firearms) need to be registered, like a car, and tracked
> so that the Police and Emergency teams know what they are dealing with at
> all times. It will also help with the gang problems etc by being able to cut
> off supplies to the undesirables.

This would be really helpful when raiding drug houses and such...oh
wait...isn't it illegal to have drugs in the US? How ever do they get
drugs if they're illegal.....

> You should need a permit to buy ammo and
> receive a limit to the amount that you can possess. These permits would
be

*bunch of stuff about ammo permits snipped*
I don't necessarily disagree that you should show id to purchase
ammunition, I'm not so sure it will make a large difference with illegal
guns though.


> them. Doesn't solve the problem. As it stands, right now I can go to
> Wal-Mart and buy a shotgun cash, there is nothing I have to show except that
> I have proof of age, ammo, and a hacksaw...I can then go to the offending
> persons house, blow their head off and ditch the gun in any of Minnesota's
> 10,000 lakes and never get caught. That is what the media's "Sniper" is
> proving. The laws are wrong and need to be adjusted to meet the demands of
> the year 2002.

Actually this isn't true, what you're suggesting is you go kill someone
who has 'pissed you off'. By that fact there will be a trail back to you,
as you would have had to have contact with the person to get 'pissed off'
at them, this is where police work comes in, they start going around
asking sales associates if someone looking like you purchased a shotgun in
the last while etc.

The sniper on the other hand is indiscriminately killing people, this is
much harder to catch because there is no connection between him and them,
much like The Son of Sam killings.

--
Just a different viewpoint.

../Martin
Message no. 25
From: christian@********.org (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:06:53 +0100
<censorship>

This is all getting too political for me.

Can we kill this thread? If I want to read about this, I'll pick up
copies of NRA newsletter or browse CNN. More Shadowrun, less gun
control debate.

</censorship>
Message no. 26
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:54:03 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danyeal De La Luna" <lunatec@*****.com>

[snip: Anti-gun, pro-government position.]

I just want to simply state that I am an American, and I disagree with
you on almost every point you make. Not based purely on safety
issues, but more on personal freedom issues. [I tend to disagree with
any "pre-emptive" law, despite knowing that "an once of prevention is
worth a pound of cure".] However, I won't go into it, because it is
OT and flame-bait.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 27
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:05:51 -0500
> Actually it would be redundant to put in the right to bear arms for a
> military ->

A militia, by legal definitions is the state run National Guard.

>
> > That being said, a federal id needs to be
> > established that tracks all citizens and their criminal
> records. On top of
> > that, ALL weapons (firearms) need to be registered, like a car,
> and tracked
> > so that the Police and Emergency teams know what they are
> dealing with at
> > all times. It will also help with the gang problems etc by
> being able to cut
> > off supplies to the undesirables.
>
> This would be really helpful when raiding drug houses and such...oh
> wait...isn't it illegal to have drugs in the US? How ever do they get
> drugs if they're illegal.....

The illegal guns are bought LEGALLY inside the united states, THEN sold or
stolen. They are not tracked in any way after the initial sale.

>
> > You should need a permit to buy ammo and
> > receive a limit to the amount that you can possess. These permits would
> be
>
> *bunch of stuff about ammo permits snipped*
> I don't necessarily disagree that you should show id to purchase
> ammunition, I'm not so sure it will make a large difference with illegal
> guns though.
>

No ammo, no shooting


>
> > them. Doesn't solve the problem. As it stands, right now I can go to
> > Wal-Mart and buy a shotgun cash, there is nothing I have to
> show except that
> > I have proof of age, ammo, and a hacksaw...I can then go to the
> offending
> > persons house, blow their head off and ditch the gun in any of
> Minnesota's
> > 10,000 lakes and never get caught. That is what the media's "Sniper"
is
> > proving. The laws are wrong and need to be adjusted to meet the
> demands of
> > the year 2002.
>
> Actually this isn't true, what you're suggesting is you go kill someone
> who has 'pissed you off'. By that fact there will be a trail
> back to you,
> as you would have had to have contact with the person to get 'pissed off'
> at them, this is where police work comes in, they start going around
> asking sales associates if someone looking like you purchased a
> shotgun in
> the last while etc.

Still, why do I need a gun "Right Now!"??
>
> The sniper on the other hand is indiscriminately killing people, this is
> much harder to catch because there is no connection between him and them,
> much like The Son of Sam killings.
>
He is going to run out of ammo soon, and then he can go to any store and buy
more..without any questions being asked.
Message no. 28
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:07:59 -0500
> [snip: Anti-gun, pro-government position.]
>
> I just want to simply state that I am an American, and I disagree with
> you on almost every point you make. Not based purely on safety
> issues, but more on personal freedom issues. [I tend to disagree with
> any "pre-emptive" law, despite knowing that "an once of prevention is
> worth a pound of cure".] However, I won't go into it, because it is
> OT and flame-bait.
>
> Da Twink Daddy
> datwinkdaddy@*******.com
> ICQ# 514984
>

I want to be free to let my kids grow up without worrying about them getting
shot at school, in the playground, at the gas station, or ever!

Luantec
Message no. 29
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:31:55 -0700 (PDT)
> Alright, here's my American take on this subject.

[SNIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

DO...

NOT...

START...

THIS...

...

...

PLEASE!!

======Korishinzo
--there is not enough flame retardent in the world for
a debate about interpretations of America's Bill of Rights

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
Message no. 30
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:31:19 -0500
---Thread Terminated---


Lunatec
Message no. 31
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:16:22 +0200
According to Christian Casavant, on Tue, 22 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> Can we kill this thread? If I want to read about this, I'll pick up
> copies of NRA newsletter or browse CNN. More Shadowrun, less gun
> control debate.

Or bring it to an SR-related side of the debate: what is gun control like in
the 2060s? (And don't say "It means you use both hands" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know all this and more
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:15:30 +0200
At 11:16 23.10.2002 +0200, Gurth wrote:

>According to Christian Casavant, on Tue, 22 Oct 2002 the word on the
>street was...
>
> > Can we kill this thread? If I want to read about this, I'll pick up
> > copies of NRA newsletter or browse CNN. More Shadowrun, less gun
> > control debate.
>
>Or bring it to an SR-related side of the debate: what is gun control like in
>the 2060s? (And don't say "It means you use both hands" :)

"That's what the Smartgun's for, dude" ;)

Arclight
Message no. 33
From: ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 05:52:16 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Arclight [mailto:arclight@*********.de]
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:16 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Anti-roleplaying sentiments


At 11:16 23.10.2002 +0200, Gurth wrote:

>According to Christian Casavant, on Tue, 22 Oct 2002 the word on the
>street was...
>
> > Can we kill this thread? If I want to read about this, I'll pick up
> > copies of NRA newsletter or browse CNN. More Shadowrun, less gun
> > control debate.
>
>Or bring it to an SR-related side of the debate: what is gun control like
in
>the 2060s? (And don't say "It means you use both hands" :)

"That's what the Smartgun's for, dude" ;)

Arclight
Message no. 34
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Anti-roleplaying sentiments
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:28:28 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>

> Or bring it to an SR-related side of the debate: what is gun control
like in
> the 2060s? (And don't say "It means you use both hands" :)

Going from the legality ratings, I'd say that the UCAS probably has
similar laws to current day, with a few more restrictions. Every gun
(or part) legally imported or made inside will have it's signature (I
can't remember what this is actually called) registered, and probably
have serial numbers embossed on them. Also gunsmithing tools will be
regulated, and licensees will have to register any gun (or part) they
manufacture, under threat of permanently losing the license and
possibly paying a stiff fine or serving time. That said, it probably
isn't that hard to get a hold of a gun in "the ghetto" that isn't
registered, as long as you know the right people.

In corp. enclaves, they probably have a permit system for all weapons
and never issue them, except to security personnel. Anyone caught
with an unregistered/licensed weapon will be severely punished, in
addition to having their home and/or persons violated and having the
weapon(s) confiscated. Gunsmithing will not be allowed.

I'm from the an area that will become the CAS, and I believe that, if
we get enough backbone to succeed, popular opinion will lead us to
relax the restrictions on guns that exist right now. Some areas may
even require all able-bodied citizens to own (and know how to properly
use and are for) a gun. [NB: I believe there is currently one or more
townships in the US that do have this as a requirement for
citizenship.] Rudimentary gunsmithing will be a common skill, and
each county [Smaller than state, larger than township] will have one
or more experienced gunsmiths.

I'm not sure about other countries, but I'm wagering the Asian
countries will have draconian gun control.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 35
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Anti-role-playing sentiments
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:03:36 +0100
At 01:11 PM 19/10/2002 -0500, Lunatec wrote:
>Lone Eagle,
> Unfortunately, I have to concede to your logic...but thank you
> for the
>empathy on the media issue. I only hope that when they catch this freak of
>nature, that they unceremoniously shoot him/her in the back of the head like
>a rabid dog, and not give them any more media coverage. I would hate for
>this person to get caught, get convicted for a life term, write a book, then
>make a ton of cash and get their name in the history books. Immortality
>should only be for the honorable (or Honourable, just to appease the Brits
>here :)). I* am tired of mass murderers, serial killers and other sundry
>sphincters of the shallow end of the gene pool getting the notoriety, and
>not the true Hero's of our time.

If he were shot during capture that might work, if he were taken out in a
more vigilante fashion it might be counter productive, from a media point
of view.

It would be better from the media point of view if he/she were caught,
sentenced, imprisoned and ambushed with a shiv in the shower block.

>"Long Live the Fighters!", Muad'Dib

And everyone else preferably, especially me :-)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Version: 0.22
SR1+ SR2+ SR3++ h++ b++(+++) B? UB+ !IE(+) RN++>++++ STK+ LST+ NERPS+>+++
W- dk+(+++) sa-- ma- jat++++ m+(-) gm+(++) M-- P(+++)
-----END SR GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--) m- w
s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+

"She's got a tongue like an electric eel and she likes the taste of a
_man's_ tonsils."
Blackadder II (Bells)

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!