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Message no. 1
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:53:08 -0500
Just a little note...

People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns. Normal
armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon, or
possibly dikoted.
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:12:11 -0700
Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
|
| Just a little note...
|
| People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
| APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
| of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns. Normal
| armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon, or
| possibly dikoted.

Okay, quick question. What kind of effectiveness do armor piercing
rounds (those designed to be fired from small arms to defeat personal
armor) have against vehicle armor. Are they any better than standard
ammo? I thought vehicle armor would shrug off small arms AP ammo as
easily as standard ammo.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:16:03 -0500
In a message dated 97-10-27 11:12:13 EST, you write:

> Okay, quick question. What kind of effectiveness do armor piercing
> rounds (those designed to be fired from small arms to defeat personal
> armor) have against vehicle armor. Are they any better than standard
> ammo? I thought vehicle armor would shrug off small arms AP ammo as
> easily as standard ammo.

Guys, how about I settle this for everybody, the term APDS is used to
describe armor-piercing rounds, whether DPU or not, it is something to keep
game mechanics going, nothing more conspiratorial than that, nothing more
read between the lines.
Message no. 4
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:53:21 +1100
> People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
> APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
> of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns. Normal
> armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon, or
> possibly dikoted.

Pardon me for intruding (wow, I never thought I'd post a message on a
gun thread!) but I was always told that teflon-coating a bullet is not
to increase its penetration ability, but to prevent the gun barrel from
wearing out so quickly.

Or am I thoroughly wrong as usual?

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:30:50 +0000
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.971027104846.4485A-100000@*****>, Jeremiah
Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU> writes
>Just a little note...
>People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
>APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
>of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns.

Wanna bet? :) There's a SLAP (Saboted Light Armour Penetrator) round for
the M2 .50cal, and assorted saboted rounds were available down to 7.62mm
when I was still reading gun magazines.

>Normal
>armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon, or
>possibly dikoted.

Urban legend. The PTFE coating (on the Equaloy round, for instance) does
nothing for penetration, it's purely there to protect the barrel. The
Equaloy was designed for _low_ penetration...

AP rounds need a hardened penetrator, preferably tungsten or something
similar though high-carbon steel is often adequate. Sabot rounds merely
improve the energy density.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:27:49 +0000
In article <199710271612.JAA09666@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes
>Okay, quick question. What kind of effectiveness do armor piercing
>rounds (those designed to be fired from small arms to defeat personal
>armor) have against vehicle armor. Are they any better than standard
>ammo? I thought vehicle armor would shrug off small arms AP ammo as
>easily as standard ammo.

AP rounds are better against light armour (meaning APCs/IFVs). For
instance, 7.62mm ball was considered "worth a try" against BMPs and BTRs
(Soviet troop carriers). 7.62mm AP was considered effective against
both, meaning you could be confident that two shots out of three would
penetrate with enough residual energy to do significant damage.

Tanks count as "forget it" for small-arms, but many lighter-armoured
vehicles can be damaged with rifle fire. While the bullets lack the
power to destroy the vehicle, wounding or killing a couple of the troops
it carries is a useful goal.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:19:55 -0500
On Monday, October 27, 1997 16:53, Lady
Jestyr[SMTP:jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU] wrote:
> > People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing
rounds.
> > APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special
type
> > of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns. Normal
> > armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon, or
> > possibly dikoted.
>
> Pardon me for intruding (wow, I never thought I'd post a message on a
> gun thread!) but I was always told that teflon-coating a bullet is not
> to increase its penetration ability, but to prevent the gun barrel from
> wearing out so quickly.
>
> Or am I thoroughly wrong as usual?
>
> Lady Jestyr

And to add yet more furor to this, I have seen studies/surveys of police
deaths, and (at least in the US) no police officer has died due to his body
armor failing against "armor piercing" ammunition. The main effect of the
publicity surrounding "AP" ammo was to call attention to the fact that most
police officers do wear body armor, and slightly increase the number of
attempted head shots.

And as far as APDS in handgun caliber's; I don't know if there are any
today (Paul might know better than I), but discarding sabot ammo is
available today for shotguns, and in the Shadowrun universe, discarding
sabot ammunition is theoretically available for all weapons. (Personally, I
limit it to HP, SMG and up, but that is a house ruling).

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:10:10 +0100
Jeremiah Stevens said on 10:53/27 Oct 97...

> People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
> APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
> of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns.

Well... there is the .50 SLAP round which is APDS in SR terms, and
somebody built a 12.7x99 mm pistol IRL... ;)

> Normal armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon,
> or possibly dikoted.

Nope. Normal AP rounds have a hard (usually steel) core in the bullet, or
form nearly the entire projectile from steel rather than a softer metal.
The only real difference between AP and APDS is that the latter is of
smaller caliber than the barrel and has lightweight packing around it to
make up the difference.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ten shades of beautiful for every disorder.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:10:10 +0100
David Buehrer said on 9:12/27 Oct 97...

> Okay, quick question. What kind of effectiveness do armor piercing
> rounds (those designed to be fired from small arms to defeat personal
> armor) have against vehicle armor. Are they any better than standard
> ammo? I thought vehicle armor would shrug off small arms AP ammo as
> easily as standard ammo.

AFAIK, AP rounds were developed to deal with tanks -- the big World War I
machines that had 13 mm of armor steel bolted to a frame. AP rounds were
intended to allow riflemen and machinegunners to penetrate the tanks'
armor, which ball ammo couldn't.

Modern-day AP ammo for rifles and general purpose machineguns can also
penetrate light vehicle armor, but most modern light- and medium-weight
AFVs are armored to withstand 7.62x51 mm AP rounds at point-blank range on
the sides and rear (the front is usually proof against at least 14.5x114
mm AP ammo, and very often against larger calibers as well).

AP rounds do have better penetration against armor plating than standard
ammo, but armored vehicle designers have taken that into account so
usually the effects of the two ammo types against a vehicle will be about
the same -- not much, unless the vehicle doesn't have spall liners.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ten shades of beautiful for every disorder.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:45:08 GMT
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:10:10 +0100, Gurth wrote:

> Jeremiah Stevens said on 10:53/27 Oct 97...
>
> > People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
> > APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
> > of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns.
>
> Well... there is the .50 SLAP round which is APDS in SR terms, and
> somebody built a 12.7x99 mm pistol IRL... ;)

It's called "The Beast" and can be viewed on a friend's web page at:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/tw.gif



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 11
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:24:00 GMT
on 27.10.97 jeremiah@********.EDU wrote:

j> People seem to be confusing APDS rounds with normal armor piercing rounds.
j> APDS stands for Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, which is a special type
j> of AP round used by large caliber weapons (20mm+), not handguns. Normal
j> armor piercing rounds would be standard bullets coated in teflon, or
j> possibly dikoted.

Sorry, but the teflon-thing is bogus. As someone on this list pointed out
some time ago, it's like covering a knife in vaseline to make it sharper.
IIRC normal AP works by putting a tungstee or DU penetrator into some
"soft" coating. The coating transferres its kinetic energy into the armor
and thus makes it weaker. The penetrator then punches through the now
weakend barrier (or maybe this wasn't another AP method...)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:49:42 -0500
Jonathan Hurley once dared to write,

>And to add yet more furor to this, I have seen studies/surveys of police
>deaths, and (at least in the US) no police officer has died due to his body
>armor failing against "armor piercing" ammunition. The main effect of the
>publicity surrounding "AP" ammo was to call attention to the fact that most
>police officers do wear body armor, and slightly increase the number of
>attempted head shots.

Most police officers wear body armor? That's news to me. First most
of them have to buy the armor themselves. Second they are only going to
wear it when they are expected to be fired upon. It's not that easy to
forget you are wearing body armor.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:52:43 -0500
On Wednesday, October 29, 1997 08:49, MC23[SMTP:mc23@**********.COM] wrote:
> Jonathan Hurley once dared to write,
>
> >And to add yet more furor to this, I have seen studies/surveys of police
> >deaths, and (at least in the US) no police officer has died due to his
body
> >armor failing against "armor piercing" ammunition. The main effect of
the
> >publicity surrounding "AP" ammo was to call attention to the fact that
most
> >police officers do wear body armor, and slightly increase the number of
> >attempted head shots.
>
> Most police officers wear body armor? That's news to me. First most
> of them have to buy the armor themselves. Second they are only going to
> wear it when they are expected to be fired upon. It's not that easy to
> forget you are wearing body armor.
>

A lot of "big-city" police departments encourage it; as a business-related
expense, it is usually tax-deductible. At any rate, I'd guess that the
author of the book from which I plucked this gem of whatever it is picked
his data carefully.

Besides, body armor isn't that expensive (just a underclothing vest; for
the stuff SWAT wears, it is quite a bit more).

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 14
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:24:49 GMT
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:52:43 -0500, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 29, 1997 08:49, MC23[SMTP:mc23@**********.COM] wrote:
>
> > Most police officers wear body armor? That's news to me. First most
> > of them have to buy the armor themselves. Second they are only going to
> > wear it when they are expected to be fired upon. It's not that easy to
> > forget you are wearing body armor.
> >
>
> A lot of "big-city" police departments encourage it; as a business-related
> expense, it is usually tax-deductible.

Even here in humble Vancouver, Canada, our ambulance crews are wearing body
armour. Cops, not so much, but our ambulance crews have orders not to move
into an area where they are needed until the police arrive, for things like
public brawls, etc.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 15
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:39:26 -0700
> From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 7:52 AM
>
> A lot of "big-city" police departments encourage it; as a
business-related
> expense, it is usually tax-deductible. At any rate, I'd guess that
the
> author of the book from which I plucked this gem of whatever it is
picked
> his data carefully.
>
> Besides, body armor isn't that expensive (just a underclothing
vest; for
> the stuff SWAT wears, it is quite a bit more).

Huh? Not that expensive? Though I was issued a vest for the Agency I
work for, I looked into buying my own. Assuming I go with something
that will at least stop the caliber of my sidearm, (most law
enforcement people are shot with their own handguns), puts the price
at about $1,000.00 (US).

And that is for the one without any of the neat stuff like puncture
resistance and Gore-Tex weave to help dissipate heat. So no, I
wouldn't catargorize that as "isn't too expensive". Sorry.


MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365

May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 16
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:24:54 -0700
At 08:49 10/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

> Most police officers wear body armor? That's news to me. First most
>of them have to buy the armor themselves. Second they are only going to
>wear it when they are expected to be fired upon. It's not that easy to
>forget you are wearing body armor.

Here in *wonderful* Taber, Population just about 7000 now, both the local
police and RCMP have the option of wearing bullet proof vests if they want.
No charge, as far as I know. One of my friends is training with the RCMP,
and says most of them don't wear them unless they are going to a domestic
violence call, or any call they think might get violent.
Of course, in a bigger place, more cops would probably wear 'em..

-Aj

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/jurybench
Message no. 17
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:04:00 GMT
on 28.10.97 jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU wrote:

j> Pardon me for intruding (wow, I never thought I'd post a message on a
j> gun thread!) but I was always told that teflon-coating a bullet is not
j> to increase its penetration ability, but to prevent the gun barrel from
j> wearing out so quickly.

Yup.

j> Or am I thoroughly wrong as usual?

Nope.

I always love people falling for urban legends. Let's me know I'm not the
only one. :)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 18
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: APDS and Armor Piercing Rounds (Was Caseless vs. Case)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:05:00 GMT
on 30.10.97 fro@***.AB.CA wrote:

f> > Most police officers wear body armor? That's news to me. First most
f> >of them have to buy the armor themselves. Second they are only going to
f> >wear it when they are expected to be fired upon. It's not that easy to
f> >forget you are wearing body armor.
f>
f> Here in *wonderful* Taber, Population just about 7000 now, both the local
f> police and RCMP have the option of wearing bullet proof vests if they want.
f> No charge, as far as I know. One of my friends is training with the RCMP,
f> and says most of them don't wear them unless they are going to a domestic
f> violence call, or any call they think might get violent.
f> Of course, in a bigger place, more cops would probably wear 'em..

Well, here in not so wonderful Bielefeld (about 400k people, ATM), no cop
wears armor. And I don't remember anything about someone shooting at the
police here....oh well, this is Germany.....;)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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