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From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	APDS and Hardened Armor
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 12:36:52 +0000

Message no. 1 Hoi!

As I discussed myself into confusion yesterday, I need to know: How
does APDS ammo work on hardened armor?

Rules I found so far:
* SRII, p. 277: "Vehicle armor reduces the the Power of APDS ammo by
one-half its rating(round down) and reduces the Damage Level by one
level."

* FIRING THROUGH: SRII, p. 98: "If, however, the Barrier Rating exceeds
the Power of the attack, the attack cannot penetrate and is stopped
cold."

* Vehicle Armor/Hard Armor: SRII, p. 108: "Weapons use the same Damage
Codes against vehicles (hard targets) as they do against other
characters (soft targets), but with some differences and restrictions."

* SRII, p. 108: "In attacks against vehicles /with/ vehicle armor, the
armor acts as a Barrier Rating. That is, if the attacking weapon does
not exceed the rating of the vehicle armor, it will not penetrate."

What I do need to know -
1) Is "hardened armor" the same as vehicle armor?

2) if so, does it still act as barrier as per p.108, when resisting
versus APDS armor SSC, SRII, p. 277)?

3) if yes, does that calculate with the reduced Power Level or the
original? If not, it would only be stopped if (0.5 * Armor) > Power,
right?

and, of course... do you have page references? *grin*

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	APDS and Hardened Armor
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 09:16:06 +0100

Message no. 2 This one went to me instead of the list. Since I guess if Sascha
wanted to know something from me (slim chance), he would ask me in
german, I'll forward it to the list....

> Hoi!
>
> As I discussed myself into confusion yesterday, I need to know: How
> does APDS ammo work on hardened armor?
>
> Rules I found so far:
> * SRII, p. 277: "Vehicle armor reduces the the Power of APDS ammo by
> one-half its rating(round down) and reduces the Damage Level by one
> level."
>
> * FIRING THROUGH: SRII, p. 98: "If, however, the Barrier Rating exceeds
> the Power of the attack, the attack cannot penetrate and is stopped
> cold."
>
> * Vehicle Armor/Hard Armor: SRII, p. 108: "Weapons use the same Damage
> Codes against vehicles (hard targets) as they do against other
> characters (soft targets), but with some differences and restrictions."
>
> * SRII, p. 108: "In attacks against vehicles /with/ vehicle armor, the
> armor acts as a Barrier Rating. That is, if the attacking weapon does
> not exceed the rating of the vehicle armor, it will not penetrate."
>
> What I do need to know -
> 1) Is "hardened armor" the same as vehicle armor?
>
> 2) if so, does it still act as barrier as per p.108, when resisting
> versus APDS armor SSC, SRII, p. 277)?
>
> 3) if yes, does that calculate with the reduced Power Level or the
> original? If not, it would only be stopped if (0.5 * Armor) > Power,
> right?
>
> and, of course... do you have page references? *grin*
>

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: APDS and Hardened Armor
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:31 +0100

Message no. 3 Sascha Pabst said on 12:36/ 6 May 97...

> As I discussed myself into confusion yesterday, I need to know: How
> does APDS ammo work on hardened armor?

That's a really confusing issue... I had a big discussion about barriers
and hardened armor through private email last summer, that got abrubtly
cut short for no apparent reason before we'd worked out all the details...
I'll see what I can remember from that.

> Rules I found so far:
> * SRII, p. 277: "Vehicle armor reduces the the Power of APDS ammo by
> one-half its rating(round down) and reduces the Damage Level by one
> level."

Check. I've always assumed "its rating" refers to the vehicle armor's
rating, not the Power Level of the APDS round -- the latter makes little
sense, because it would mean a vehicle with rating 1 armor would be
equally well protected from APDS as a vehicle with rating 20 armor.

> * FIRING THROUGH: SRII, p. 98: "If, however, the Barrier Rating exceeds
> the Power of the attack, the attack cannot penetrate and is stopped
> cold."

Check.

> * Vehicle Armor/Hard Armor: SRII, p. 108: "Weapons use the same Damage
> Codes against vehicles (hard targets) as they do against other
> characters (soft targets), but with some differences and restrictions."
>
> * SRII, p. 108: "In attacks against vehicles /with/ vehicle armor, the
> armor acts as a Barrier Rating. That is, if the attacking weapon does
> not exceed the rating of the vehicle armor, it will not penetrate."

One of the questions we came up with was whether armor is treated like a
barrier in _every_ situation, or only for determining whether the round
bounces or not. For example, do holes get blown in the armor is the round
penetrates, like for barriers?

> What I do need to know -
> 1) Is "hardened armor" the same as vehicle armor?

SRII page 218: "Creatures with hardened armor have an exoskeleton
possessing the same qualities as vehicle armor." I say that means that the
exact same rules apply to firing at a critter with hardened armor (like a
juggernaut) as to firing at an armored vehicle -- the rounds bounce off if
their Power is less than the armor rating, and the critter gets half the
armor rating in extra dice to resist.
One thing here is that, if you rule vehicle armor can have big holes shot
into it, this shouldn't apply to critter armor -- having a 2-meter hole in
an animal's side would be a bit weird IMHO.

> 2) if so, does it still act as barrier as per p.108, when resisting
> versus APDS armor SSC, SRII, p. 277)?

Yes, IMO.

> 3) if yes, does that calculate with the reduced Power Level or the
> original? If not, it would only be stopped if (0.5 * Armor) > Power,
> right?

That's what I'd go for. With your Uzi vs. juggernaut example, it would
be stopped if the Uzi fires regular rounds, but with APDS it goes through.

> and, of course... do you have page references? *grin*

I'll have to work on that :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: APDS and Hardened Armor
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 08:05:50 -0600

Message no. 4 Gurth wrote:
|
| One of the questions we came up with was whether armor is treated like a
| barrier in _every_ situation, or only for determining whether the round
| bounces or not. For example, do holes get blown in the armor is the round
| penetrates, like for barriers?

I've always had a problem with that. I just use my best judgement (always
open to debate) when deciding how big a hole it makes. If the characters
are using something like C-12 with the purpose of blowing a hole through a
wall then I use the rules as is.

| > What I do need to know -
| > 1) Is "hardened armor" the same as vehicle armor?
|
| SRII page 218: "Creatures with hardened armor have an exoskeleton
| possessing the same qualities as vehicle armor." I say that means that the
| exact same rules apply to firing at a critter with hardened armor (like a
| juggernaut) as to firing at an armored vehicle -- the rounds bounce off if
| their Power is less than the armor rating, and the critter gets half the
| armor rating in extra dice to resist.
| One thing here is that, if you rule vehicle armor can have big holes shot
| into it, this shouldn't apply to critter armor -- having a 2-meter hole in
| an animal's side would be a bit weird IMHO.

Again, GM call. If a juggernaut is hit by an AP missile but resists
the damage I would rule that it's shell that has crater in it, but
not all the way through to soft tissue (and it's pissed). If someone
was using an Uzi with APDS and got a serious then there would be a
smattering of 1-2 inch holes with blood oozing out.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: APDS and Hardened Armor
Date:	Sat, 10 May 1997 13:19:07 +1000

Message no. 5 > | One of the questions we came up with was whether armor is treated like a
> | barrier in _every_ situation, or only for determining whether the round
> | bounces or not. For example, do holes get blown in the armor is the round
> | penetrates, like for barriers?
>
> I've always had a problem with that. I just use my best judgement (always
> open to debate) when deciding how big a hole it makes. If the characters
> are using something like C-12 with the purpose of blowing a hole through a
> wall then I use the rules as is.
>

Makes good sense, I'd assume that FASA had walls in mind, and not
vehicles etc. when they designed that rule.

I guess the big question is whether the barrier would have any underlying
support or not. A wall could conceivably collapse because it's simply
got too many holes to maintain its shape. Metal armours, on the other
hand would deform, and not simply fall off, or shatter with the impact.

As many discussions on this list have stated, most of the damage done to
armoured vehicles is caused either by a small penetrating rod or spike,
or by fragments of the armour being thrown off on the inside (scabbed) by
the impact of the round. Tanks do not generally get huge (2+ meter) holes
ripped in them.

Also, creatures which have a hardened exoskeleton, notably the
Juggernaut, support their armour with their entire subdermal layer; I'd
treat it as a harder version of orthoskin, (which does not
get damaged/reduced by weapons fire.)

Interesting question leading on from this; (In the case of a juggernaut) If
the armour gets damaged, what happens to it during the healing process?
Does it fall off, or does it scar like normal tissue? Anyone got any
experience with armadillo's to draw upon? *grin*

Marty

(At last; an on topic post worth commenting on!)

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: APDS and Hardened Armor
Date:	Sun, 11 May 1997 09:13:05 -0600

Message no. 6 MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:
|
| Interesting question leading on from this; (In the case of a juggernaut) If
| the armour gets damaged, what happens to it during the healing process?
| Does it fall off, or does it scar like normal tissue? Anyone got any
| experience with armadillo's to draw upon? *grin*

Not armadillos, but turtles. A friend had a turtle that was afflicted by a
bacteria or virus that destroyed parts of its shell. After treating it for
the infection the vet sealed up the holes with some fiberglass. The shell
grew back and pushed away the fiberglass. Except for some discoloration
its fine now.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

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