Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Elling Polden thorondor_sr@*****.com
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:25:25 -0800 (PST)
I joined the list yesterday and picked up on the APDS tread. The issue
seems to be how a smartlink knows what kind of ammo is in the chamber
so that it can calculate the ballistic path of the bullet. The answer
is in My Humble Opinion™ quite simple. It doesn't.
The SmartLink is basically a red dot sight projected to a pair of
goggles or retina, and does about the same. It indicates the point of
aim in a straight line from the barrel. The fact that it doesn't
recognize ammo is made clear by two facts. It can not calculate the
ballistic curve of a grenade launcher without a rangefinder, and thus
is unable to measure distances. If it can not find out how far away
the point of aim is it can not calculate a point of impact. Further a
external smartlink gives the same advantages as a internal one, and a
SmartLink connected to a sighting rail would have no possibility
whatsoever of knowing what is in the chamber.
Smargoggles also give the same target modifier as a laser sight, but
be preferable because the point of aim indicator(or Red Dot™) is not
affected by range or other conditions. The -2 of the smartlink inplant
is due to the fact that the Dot™ is displayed on the retina and
adjusts to the users vision at all times. You do not have to focus on
a dot or on the goggles, and the gun feels more like a part of you.
I did not read the original APDS text, but would like to say something
on this ammo. Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot ammunition is currently
used by larger caliber weapons like Tank guns or Autocannons. The
smallest Subcalliber type armor piercer I have heard of is the .50
SLAP ammo used by the US Marines. The principle is that you fire a
subcalliber round (The SLAP uses a 5,56 projectile) cased in a sabot
that is discarded once the round leaves the barrel. This allows the
projectile to gain extremely high velocities and thus penetrate
better. I realy doubt if this type of ammo would be any usefull in
smallarms as the subcaliber round would be very small. In a 5,56 AR
round it would maybe be the size of a needle or thin nail. It is
however, unlike what FASA claims in SR3, a antivehicle ammo. If it was
going to be limited in some way it should have -1 damage level against
personnel.
Further I think the SR3 Armor rules are Crap

Heyas to ya all
Thorondor




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:27:10 -0700 (MST)
Elling Polden wrote:
/
/
/ I joined the list yesterday and picked up on the APDS tread. The issue
/ seems to be how a smartlink knows what kind of ammo is in the chamber
/ so that it can calculate the ballistic path of the bullet. The answer
/ is in My Humble Opinion™ quite simple. It doesn't.

The debate isn't about how the standard smartgun link knows, but how the
Smartgun Link II from FoF knows.

/ Further I think the SR3 Armor rules are Crap

How so?

BTW, Welcome to ShadowRN! :)

Please take the time to read the FAQ at:

http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/BuildHtmlFAQ.php3?title=ShadowRN&faqlistúqsrn

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:03 +0100
According to Elling Polden, at 9:25 on 25 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> I did not read the original APDS text, but would like to say something
> on this ammo. Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot ammunition is currently
> used by larger caliber weapons like Tank guns or Autocannons.

Almost true... Since the mid-1980s or so, hardly anybody has used APDS
anymore.

> The smallest Subcalliber type armor piercer I have heard of is the .50
> SLAP ammo used by the US Marines. The principle is that you fire a
> subcalliber round (The SLAP uses a 5,56 projectile) cased in a sabot
> that is discarded once the round leaves the barrel. This allows the
> projectile to gain extremely high velocities and thus penetrate better.
> I realy doubt if this type of ammo would be any usefull in smallarms as
> the subcaliber round would be very small. In a 5,56 AR round it would
> maybe be the size of a needle or thin nail. It is however, unlike what
> FASA claims in SR3, a antivehicle ammo. If it was going to be limited in
> some way it should have -1 damage level against personnel.

Which is a kind of ammunition that exists already, and as used 10 years
ago for the Steyr and AAI entries in the Advanced Combat Rifle trials of
the American armed forces, and in the 1960s (IIRC) for other trial
weapons. Not much more than a 1.5 mm diameter needle with four fins at the
tail end (imagine a very thin throwing dart) fired from a rifle-sized
cartridge case.

However, looking at the artwork in the Street Samurai Catalog it appears
to be more like the 4.32 mm saboted bullets used in the Serial Bullet
Rifle trials held by the US Army in the 1970s. This consisted of a 4.32 mm
bullet held in a 5.56 mm sabot contained in a normal 5.56 x45 mm cartridge
case. (XM19 and adapted M16A1 rifles were used, BTW.)

So, both types are possible for SR, and looking at the performance of APDS
in SR I would think it's the second type I described -- i.e., a true APDS
round rather than a flechette or APFSDS.

> Further I think the SR3 Armor rules are Crap

In what way?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Elling Polden thorondor_sr@*****.com
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:21:12 -0800 (PST)
---David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org> wrote:
>
> Elling Polden wrote:
> /
> /
> / I joined the list yesterday and picked up on the APDS tread. The
issue
> / seems to be how a smartlink knows what kind of ammo is in the
chamber
> / so that it can calculate the ballistic path of the bullet. The
answer
> / is in My Humble Opinion™ quite simple. It doesn't.
>
> The debate isn't about how the standard smartgun link knows, but how
the
> Smartgun Link II from FoF knows.

Well, the same prety much goes for the Smartlink II. It is still the
same in extenal and internal modes, and it needs the rangefinder. my
guess is that you have to zero it or adjust it somehow.

> / Further I think the SR3 Armor rules are Crap
>
> How so?

I would say that it is kinda crappy that you cant hurt a Bulldog
Stepvan BC with a HMG. Sure armor technology has advanced, but my
impression is that you can damage a present day APC with 7,62 ball
(That would be a MMG). IMHU it was uneccesary and bad for the game to
halve weapon power before apying to hardened armor. Now you have to
get a friggin' LAW to hurt your neighbourhood pizza delivery van.Not
to mention Steel Lynx drones or dudes with heavy armor. A light Mil
grade armor can now take non-armor piercing Assault cannon round no
sweat. Nosir, i dont like it (And im the one thats making 36D ATGMS)

>
> BTW, Welcome to ShadowRN! :)

Thanks..

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 5
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:55:22 +0100
> Elling Polden [SMTP:thorondor_sr@*****.com] wrote:
>
>---David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org> wrote:
>>
>> Elling Polden wrote:

>> / Further I think the SR3 Armor rules are Crap
>>
>> How so?

> would say that it is kinda crappy that you cant hurt a Bulldog
>Stepvan BC with a HMG. Sure armor technology has advanced, but my
>impression is that you can damage a present day APC with 7,62 ball
>(That would be a MMG). IMHU it was uneccesary and bad for the game to
>halve weapon power before apying to hardened armor. Now you have to
>get a friggin' LAW to hurt your neighbourhood pizza delivery van.Not
>to mention Steel Lynx drones or dudes with heavy armor. A light Mil
>grade armor can now take non-armor piercing Assault cannon round no
>sweat. Nosir, i dont like it (And im the one thats making 36D ATGMS)

Two issues I want to state for further consideration:

1. Since the body of the vehicles is fixed now and it cannot be
increased any further, you will just need to penetrate the armor to
crash the vehicle. Two weeks ago the team rigger took "captain's
chair". Pretty sure of himself his 2 LAVs (they both have missile pods
and HMGs mounted) entered the building first to give cover and he would
follow with his main vehicle. However the guys were triggered because
the other team members entered using the backdoor and alarmed them.
They took a shot at the LAVs, the shots penetrated the armor and the
rigger could only resist the damage with 2 body dice. Needless to say
that the LAV crashed and burned. I agree that you will need powerful
arms to penetrate the armor, but once there through... KABOOOM!!! I
hope he will be more careful next time, since he doesn't have the nuyen
to replace the drone :)

2. I think it is crap that you have to compare the UNMODIFIED power of
a weapon with the armor rating. This means that a HMG won't penetrate
the armor, but a sniper would? This sounded a bit illogical to me,
especially if you consider the caliber of the HMG or am I mistaken in
this one?

Sven ;-)
Message no. 6
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:03:49 -0600
On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:55:22 +0100 Sven De Herdt
<Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> writes:
<SNIP>
>2. I think it is crap that you have to compare the UNMODIFIED power of
>a weapon with the armor rating. This means that a HMG won't penetrate
>the armor, but a sniper would? This sounded a bit illogical to me,
>especially if you consider the caliber of the HMG or am I mistaken in
>this one?

1) If one round can't penetrate, why would half dozen be able to?
2) The increase in Power from BF or FA is partly (mostly?) in place of
rolling 2-15(+?) separate attack and damage resistance rolls.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 7
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:02:36 +0000
In article <19990225172525.5205.rocketmail@******.yahoomail.com>, Elling
Polden <thorondor_sr@*****.com> writes
>I joined the list yesterday and picked up on the APDS tread. The issue
>seems to be how a smartlink knows what kind of ammo is in the chamber
>so that it can calculate the ballistic path of the bullet. The answer
>is in My Humble Opinion™ quite simple. It doesn't.

Depends... :)

>The SmartLink is basically a red dot sight projected to a pair of
>goggles or retina, and does about the same. It indicates the point of
>aim in a straight line from the barrel.

>The fact that it doesn't
>recognize ammo is made clear by two facts. It can not calculate the
>ballistic curve of a grenade launcher without a rangefinder, and thus
>is unable to measure distances.

But _with_ a rangefinder it can... so it can handle ballistic
calculation given adequate data.

>If it can not find out how far away
>the point of aim is it can not calculate a point of impact.

Sure it can, at battlesight range.

>Further a
>external smartlink gives the same advantages as a internal one, and a
>SmartLink connected to a sighting rail would have no possibility
>whatsoever of knowing what is in the chamber.

Unless you tell it, of course...


>Smargoggles also give the same target modifier as a laser sight, but
>be preferable because the point of aim indicator(or Red Dot™) is not
>affected by range or other conditions.

I also added Aimpoint scopes to my game, and figure weapons like the
HK227 and FN-HAR that come with 'laser sights' actually have Aimpoints.

>I did not read the original APDS text, but would like to say something
>on this ammo. Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot ammunition is currently
>used by larger caliber weapons like Tank guns or Autocannons. The
>smallest Subcalliber type armor piercer I have heard of is the .50
>SLAP ammo used by the US Marines.

They also evaluated a 7.62mm version.

>I realy doubt if this type of ammo would be any usefull in
>smallarms as the subcaliber round would be very small. In a 5,56 AR
>round it would maybe be the size of a needle or thin nail.

Like the ammunition used in the AAI and Steyr contenders for the
Advanced Combat Rifle competition, for instance, a saboted 1.5mm
flechette in a 5.56mm casing (AAI) or a plastic telescoped case (Steyr)?

>It is
>however, unlike what FASA claims in SR3, a antivehicle ammo.

I give it armour-piercing effect against vehicles for just that reason.

>If it was
>going to be limited in some way it should have -1 damage level against
>personnel.

I prefer just to limit it by its scarcity and extreme distinctiveness.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 8
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:35:44 +0000
In article <19990226.120812.-880927.0.dghost@****.com>, dghost@****.com
writes
>On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:55:22 +0100 Sven De Herdt
><Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> writes:
><SNIP>
>>2. I think it is crap that you have to compare the UNMODIFIED power of
>>a weapon with the armor rating. This means that a HMG won't penetrate
>>the armor, but a sniper would? This sounded a bit illogical to me,
>>especially if you consider the caliber of the HMG or am I mistaken in
>>this one?
>
>1) If one round can't penetrate, why would half dozen be able to?

Look at (for instance) the side of a tank. It's mostly slabs of armour
that will deflect most man-portable threats: there's the turret ring,
which is an unavoidable weak spot: there's the tracks and running gear,
which is very hard to armour.

One shot from a Fairly Big Gun that can pierce 50mm of armour, will
mostly bounce off or hang up in the armour. A dozen rounds from
something that can pierce 20mm of armour will mostly bounce, but one or
two are likely to find soft spots and get through.

>2) The increase in Power from BF or FA is partly (mostly?) in place of
>rolling 2-15(+?) separate attack and damage resistance rolls.

And IMHO that should apply to firing at armoured targets too. The more
darts you throw, the greater the chance of finding one of the
unavoidable weak spots.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 9
From: Damian Robinson max.robinson@**.net.au
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:40:43 +1100
Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
<snip>

> I also added Aimpoint scopes to my game, and figure weapons like the
> HK227 and FN-HAR that come with 'laser sights' actually have Aimpoints.

Now that makes sense!
Laser sight also means red dot sight!

> >I did not read the original APDS text, but would like to say something
> >on this ammo. Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot ammunition is currently
> >used by larger caliber weapons like Tank guns or Autocannons. The
> >smallest Subcalliber type armor piercer I have heard of is the .50
> >SLAP ammo used by the US Marines.
>
> They also evaluated a 7.62mm version.

The Swedish army has a 7.62N round with a AP sub cal in service right
now with their snipers, for use against targets with light armor.
IIRC, its got a 4.8? mm tungsten Sub Cal. Accuracy

> >I realy doubt if this type of ammo would be any usefull in
> >smallarms as the subcaliber round would be very small. In a 5,56 AR
> >round it would maybe be the size of a needle or thin nail.
>
> Like the ammunition used in the AAI and Steyr contenders for the
> Advanced Combat Rifle competition, for instance, a saboted 1.5mm
> flechette in a 5.56mm casing (AAI) or a plastic telescoped case (Steyr)?
>
> >It is
> >however, unlike what FASA claims in SR3, a antivehicle ammo.
>
> I give it armour-piercing effect against vehicles for just that reason.

It would really depend on what level of armour you're shooting it at,
and what the flechette is made of. Most flechettes are designed so
that the tip hooks over so as to increase terminal effects in soft
tissue. This means the tip is softer than the body of the flechette,
and its effectiveness Vs hard armour is likely to suffer. But soft
body armor? What armor? That's just a suit of softly woven holes for
me to slip through!

Also, against a vehicle with real armor, not many pistol launched
rounds are likely to penetrate armor designed to stop assault rifles
and MMG's. The .224 BOZ is an exemption to this rule however! (for
those who don't know, this round penetrates the armor plate from a
bradley AIFV at 50m (IIRC))

> >If it was
> >going to be limited in some way it should have -1 damage level against
> >personnel.
>
> I prefer just to limit it by its scarcity and extreme distinctiveness.

Perhaps a half way house?
Two different types of APDS ammo, one for APers purposes, and another
for AVeh. The APers version is ineffective Vs Hardened armor in the
normal way, and the other is great against hardened armor, but tends
to go straight through people (-1 damage level Vs Non hardened
targets, the reverse of normal APDS).
Call it say, Security Grade for APers, and Mil Grade for AVeh.
Keep roughly the same sort of avail and costs for each (or not, up to
you and your GM), and sort it out from there! But all APDS types are
going to be verrrryyy distinctive!

"look sir, these rounds are the same type and batch as that last hit,
up in renton!"

Comments?
(i.e. has this been done already too?)
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:11:02 +0100
According to Sven De Herdt, at 12:55 on 26 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> 2. I think it is crap that you have to compare the UNMODIFIED power of
> a weapon with the armor rating. This means that a HMG won't penetrate
> the armor, but a sniper would? This sounded a bit illogical to me,
> especially if you consider the caliber of the HMG or am I mistaken in
> this one?

This is a problem with SR's weapon damages, which make reasonable sense
except for a few weapons -- heavy pistols, sniper rifles, and machine guns
being the main offenders. In my game the damages are somewhat changed:

Heavy Pistol: subtract 3 from the listed Power Level
Sniper Rifle: subtract 4
HMG: add 2

That means most sniper rifles end up at 10S, heavy pistols at 6M (7M for
the Super Warhawk), and so on.

This solution might not alter your real problem with SR's armor rules
(which appears to be that firing a lot of rounds won't have more effect
than firing a single one) but it does at least solve the problem that a
weapon which IRL penetrates armor better doesn't do so in SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:59:31 EST
In a message dated 2/27/99 3:42:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

>
> This is a problem with SR's weapon damages, which make reasonable sense
> except for a few weapons -- heavy pistols, sniper rifles, and machine guns
> being the main offenders. In my game the damages are somewhat changed:
>
> Heavy Pistol: subtract 3 from the listed Power Level
> Sniper Rifle: subtract 4
> HMG: add 2
>
> That means most sniper rifles end up at 10S, heavy pistols at 6M (7M for
> the Super Warhawk), and so on.

IMC I actually think firearms should be more dangerous in some circumstances.
I bump the stage up 1 vs. unarmored targets for most rounds. This has little
effect on SRers since they almost always where armor, but makes civilians that
much more in danger from all that flying lead.
Also, I have changed the rifle system, to light/magnum/ super catagories,
the range and damage based on the class. Why a sniper rifle is more powerful
than a hunting rifle does not make sense to me. When I get aroudn to doing a
"security catalog" for my site, I will do assault rifle and machine guns the
same way.
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:42:46 +0100
According to Schizi@***.com, at 18:59 on 27 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> IMC I actually think firearms should be more dangerous in some circumstances.
> I bump the stage up 1

I suppose you mean the Damage Level? (Damage Level is the L, M, S, or D;
the Staging is how many successes you need to in- or decrease the Damage
Level by one -- i.e., always 2 in SRII/3.)

> vs. unarmored targets for most rounds. This has little effect on SRers
> since they almost always where armor, but makes civilians that much more
> in danger from all that flying lead.

In my experiences, this is a rather unnecessary modification. Characters
with average Body ratings (3 or 4) and no armor take quite a bit of damage
from most weapons anyway. Even higher-Body folks without armor shouldn't
think too lightly of being shot at with a 6M round. YMMV, of course, but
in my campaign this is pretty much the case.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:58:08 +0100
> dghost@****.com [SMTP:dghost@****.com] wrote:
>
><Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> writes:
><SNIP>
>>2. I think it is crap that you have to compare the UNMODIFIED power
of
>>a weapon with the armor rating. This means that a HMG won't penetrate
>>the armor, but a sniper would? This sounded a bit illogical to me,
>>especially if you consider the caliber of the HMG or am I mistaken in
>>this one?

>1) If one round can't penetrate, why would half dozen be able to?

Because I thought that using new technologies: smartlink, gyro
stabilization, recoil compensators,... it should be possible to have
half a dozen bullets hit the target on exactly the same spot, which
would have much more chance to penetrate than only 1 bullet.

Sven ;-)
Message no. 14
From: Scott Peterson herne454@*******.net
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:55:37 -0700
fact of the matter is fasa has NEVER accurately portrayed ammunition
developments and advances as it is in rl....hell the rules from 1st 2nd and
even 3rd ed dont truely reflect the way rl ammunition works versus
armor...after 8 years of wondring have deiced they HAD to make allowanaces
for thier comabt system and tweakjed it to make it work......you want real
rules for amm find the tarot firearms ammunstion supplmant ont he web ring
thats hows you rl ammo NOW in 1987 when I wrote the damn doc and how it
SHOULD work with in the sytem and accurately portray the way it happens.

Sorry get on ammo and I get a rise:)

Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Sven De Herdt <Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be>
To: 'shadowrn@*********.org' <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 2:02 AM
Subject: RE: APDS and Smartlinks


>> dghost@****.com [SMTP:dghost@****.com] wrote:
>>
>><Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> writes:
>><SNIP>
>>>2. I think it is crap that you have to compare the UNMODIFIED power
>of
>>>a weapon with the armor rating. This means that a HMG won't penetrate
>>>the armor, but a sniper would? This sounded a bit illogical to me,
>>>especially if you consider the caliber of the HMG or am I mistaken in
>>>this one?
>
>>1) If one round can't penetrate, why would half dozen be able to?
>
>Because I thought that using new technologies: smartlink, gyro
>stabilization, recoil compensators,... it should be possible to have
>half a dozen bullets hit the target on exactly the same spot, which
>would have much more chance to penetrate than only 1 bullet.
>
>Sven ;-)
>
>
Message no. 15
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:22:10 -0600
On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:58:08 +0100 Sven De Herdt
<Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> writes:
>> dghost@****.com [SMTP:dghost@****.com] wrote:
<SNIP>
>>1) If one round can't penetrate, why would half dozen be able to?

>Because I thought that using new technologies: smartlink, gyro
>stabilization, recoil compensators,... it should be possible to have
>half a dozen bullets hit the target on exactly the same spot, which
>would have much more chance to penetrate than only 1 bullet.

If the bugger is so armored that the first bullet only scratches the
paint and richochets, the result the above would bring is that they'd all
richochet at similar angles ... :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 16
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:19:35 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:58 AM 3/1/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
>>1) If one round can't penetrate, why would half dozen be able to?
>
>Because I thought that using new technologies: smartlink, gyro
>stabilization, recoil compensators,... it should be possible to have
>half a dozen bullets hit the target on exactly the same spot, which
>would have much more chance to penetrate than only 1 bullet.

So, instead of having to penetrate just the thickness of the armor,
bullet #2 hits the exact same spot, having to not only go through the
armor but the added thickness of the deformed lump of lead that was
bullet #1? :)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0.2

iQCVAwUBNtqv76PbvUVI86rNAQFwQAP/d7QHh40PFY8vTkVqlQYcTL0fHeOOywJD
ggRFsjwRRYEOoomSGJTFzr/Uvsj5V7Zf2FBqD0GMPG42OR02QhwnN/Xc3Vg4orSL
DfFJ9rEsPtpoLQnX/s0XrjbiLJnim8b0RW/ncdgDCHD6lBlQ0+0RGQTu35j8f6NW
7/w2gf7n+w4=kouE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about APDS and Smartlinks, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!