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Message no. 1
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 01:25:27 -0500
Hello guys and girls!

I know that the following question could have been answered before, but
since I'm new to this great list, I'd like to take advantage of your knowlegde.

So here it is:

How do you resolve combat when using APDS ammo against hardened armor?
I'm gonna shout: COULD YOU ANSWER THIS BEFORE SUNDAY 03/09, so we (our
gamming group can have a very bullet-ed and hardened session?
Rules are a bit confusing when referring to apds and to hardened armor.

Thanks for all your patience.

The elven mage
Message no. 2
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:57:53 +0000
On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Angel Ramos y David Fayes wrote:

> How do you resolve combat when using APDS ammo against hardened armor?
> I'm gonna shout: COULD YOU ANSWER THIS BEFORE SUNDAY 03/09, so we (our
> gamming group can have a very bullet-ed and hardened session?
> Rules are a bit confusing when referring to apds and to hardened armor.

Well here is how I run it - the rating of teh hardened armour is halved
paer normal APDS rules, however for purposes of determining armour value
of the Body rating of the car the rating is _not_ halved.

E.g. A car with body 4 and armour 3 versus a 9M pistol
With normal rounds this would be rolling 5 dice (Body plus half armour
rd?) versus 2L damage (power is reduced by armour and body ratings, damage
level is reduced by one for attacking a car).

With APDS the car would resist with 5 dice as above versus 4L damage
(power is reduced by half armour and _full_ body rating).

If the car didn't have armour but was hit with APDS it would resist with 4
dice (body only) a damage code of 7L (power is reduced by _half_ Body).

This gives armour a better advantage than simply extra Body when facing
APDS especially in the light that Armour only adds half as many dice to
the resistance roll than extra body would.

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 3
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:38:33 -0500
At 01:25 AM 3/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Hello guys and girls!
>
>I know that the following question could have been answered before, but
>since I'm new to this great list, I'd like to take advantage of your knowlegde.
>
>So here it is:
>
>How do you resolve combat when using APDS ammo against hardened armor?
>I'm gonna shout: COULD YOU ANSWER THIS BEFORE SUNDAY 03/09, so we (our
>gamming group can have a very bullet-ed and hardened session?
>Rules are a bit confusing when referring to apds and to hardened armor.
>
>Thanks for all your patience.
>
>The elven mage

I don't know about any list consensus, but the way we handle it in my game
is you halve the armor value vs. APDS before seeing if the round penetrates
or not.

So, a hold-out pistol with APDS will still bounce off of heavy military
grade armor, but a heavy pistol with APDS will go right through.

--DT
Message no. 4
From: Toaster <Toaster@************.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:26:52 -0800
> How do you resolve combat when using APDS ammo against hardened armor?
> I'm gonna shout: COULD YOU ANSWER THIS BEFORE SUNDAY 03/09, so we (our
> gamming group can have a very bullet-ed and hardened session?
> Rules are a bit confusing when referring to apds and to hardened armor.
>
> Thanks for all your patience.
>
> The elven magepersonal hardened armour hasn't been hit yet, so I'll put that in:
in my game....
APDS doesn't go through hardened as effectively..
we halve the armour's rating and the weapon's power for damage resistance.
i dont remember at what point we said it bounces, though. i think it's at the
normal point, the weapon's base power vs. the hardened armour's full value.
cyberspunk
Message no. 5
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:38:05 +0000
> Well here is how I run it - the rating of teh hardened armour is halved
> paer normal APDS rules, however for purposes of determining armour value
> of the Body rating of the car the rating is _not_ halved.

You assume its a car... could be someone is using Paranormal Guide To
North America and wants to go Behemoth hunting? :)

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:48:28 +0000
In message <1.5.4.16.19970302062527.3b37da38@***.true.net>, Angel Ramos
y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET> writes
> Hello guys and girls!
>I know that the following question could have been answered before, but
>since I'm new to this great list, I'd like to take advantage of your knowlegde.
>
>So here it is:
>
>How do you resolve combat when using APDS ammo against hardened armor?
>I'm gonna shout: COULD YOU ANSWER THIS BEFORE SUNDAY 03/09, so we (our
>gamming group can have a very bullet-ed and hardened session?
>Rules are a bit confusing when referring to apds and to hardened armor.

Halve the rating of the hardened armour and work from there, just like
any other armour. APDS was designed to defeat this stuff.

So, if you're in a military battlesuit with fifteen points of armour, a
HK227 firing APDS bounces off (fifteen halved = 7, same as the SMG's
base power).

An assault rifle would just penetrate, with a power of 8 vs. the
armour's modified 7. Burst fire could get more painful, but single shots
won't do much (target no. 2 to resist, and anyone able to get this sort
of milspec should have a scary Threat Rating too).

For enemies not blessed with APDS, they'd better either have missiles or
assault cannon...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:22:12 -0800
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> For enemies not blessed with APDS, they'd better either have missiles or
> assault cannon...
>

See!! there really IS a use for Assualt Cannons!!
(and of course the mini-gun sporting APDS).

~Tim
Message no. 8
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:34:17 -0500
At 06:22 PM 3/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
>> For enemies not blessed with APDS, they'd better either have missiles or
>> assault cannon...
>>
>
>See!! there really IS a use for Assualt Cannons!!
>(and of course the mini-gun sporting APDS).
>
>~Tim

Just remember that when calculating whether a round penetrates hardened
armor or not, you ignore modifiers to power for burst or FA (because the
rounds don't all hit in the exact same spot -- each has to be able to make
its own individual hole).

--DT
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:41:15 -0800
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, David Thompson wrote:

> At 06:22 PM 3/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Paul J. Adam wrote:
> >
> >> For enemies not blessed with APDS, they'd better either have missiles or
> >> assault cannon...
> >>
> >
> >See!! there really IS a use for Assualt Cannons!!
> >(and of course the mini-gun sporting APDS).
> >
> >~Tim
>
> Just remember that when calculating whether a round penetrates hardened
> armor or not, you ignore modifiers to power for burst or FA (because the
> rounds don't all hit in the exact same spot -- each has to be able to make
> its own individual hole).
>

Well, yes, but the post I was quoting (the part that I snipped) was
mentioning a situation where the weapons power only just barely exceeded
the armor rating, so the wearer had t#'s of like 2 or something.

In this case, since the round managed to penetrate, you can then add all
the burst mods (which in the case of a mini-gun are quite significant: +15
power and +5 levels of damage...).

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:22:37 EST
On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:38:05 +0000 Shane Courtrille
<hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA> writes:
>> Well here is how I run it - the rating of teh hardened armour is
>halved
>> paer normal APDS rules, however for purposes of determining armour
>value
>> of the Body rating of the car the rating is _not_ halved.
>
>You assume its a car... could be someone is using Paranormal Guide To
>North America and wants to go Behemoth hunting? :)

Or perhaps the poor fool is going after or up against someone with
milspec armor?

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 11
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 06:02:13 -0500
At 04:38 PM 2/3/01 +0000, Shane Courtrille wrote these timeless words:
>> Well here is how I run it - the rating of teh hardened armour is halved
>> paer normal APDS rules, however for purposes of determining armour value
>> of the Body rating of the car the rating is _not_ halved.
>
>You assume its a car... could be someone is using Paranormal Guide To
>North America and wants to go Behemoth hunting? :)
>
Hey now! That Drek aint funny!!!!

You ever try to cut the Balls off one of these fraggers?!?!?!?

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:33:00 +0100
Tim Cooper said on 18:22/ 6 Mar 97...

> See!! there really IS a use for Assualt Cannons!!
> (and of course the mini-gun sporting APDS).

A minigun with APDS fired at a heavy military armor will just bounce off
(unless you're going for one of the heavier miniguns from the RBB), for
the same reason the HK 227 Paul mentioned bounces off: its base Power
doesn't exceed the armor rating.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:43:13 -0700
> >You assume its a car... could be someone is using Paranormal Guide To
> >North America and wants to go Behemoth hunting? :)
> >
> Hey now! That Drek aint funny!!!!
>
> You ever try to cut the Balls off one of these fraggers?!?!?!?
>
> Bull


Why did I just get a mental image of an Ork decker using his dikoted
program carriers (since he can no longer deck with them =) to carve at a
Behemoths tender parts?

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 14
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:52:55 +0000
> the same reason the HK 227 Paul mentioned bounces off: its base Power
> doesn't exceed the armor rating.

I must have really missed some basic rule somewhere... can someone
point me to the location in the book of this rule about power having
to exceed armor...Is this just for hardened armor or what? :) help!
:) hehehe
*wave*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 15
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:08:29 EST
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 06:02:13 -0500 Bull <chaos@*****.com> writes:
>At 04:38 PM 2/3/01 +0000, Shane Courtrille wrote these timeless words:
>>> Well here is how I run it - the rating of teh hardened armour is
halved
>>> paer normal APDS rules, however for purposes of determining armour
value
>>> of the Body rating of the car the rating is _not_ halved.
>>
>>You assume its a car... could be someone is using Paranormal Guide To
>>North America and wants to go Behemoth hunting? :)
>>
>Hey now! That Drek aint funny!!!!
>
>You ever try to cut the Balls off one of these fraggers?!?!?!?

You know Bull... not once in my (does some quick math) 7 years of playing
SR has any one of my characters or anyone of the character's of people
that I've known ever been involved in Behemoth Castration for Cash (I'm
assuming there would be pay involved, because...hey! it's a Behemoth and
I imagine he'd be quite attached to those particular organs)....

...until now.

~Tim
Message no. 16
From: Tim Coxon <Tim.Ntoo@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:44:57 -0000
> > See!! there really IS a use for Assualt Cannons!!
> > (and of course the mini-gun sporting APDS).
>
> A minigun with APDS fired at a heavy military armor will just bounce off
> (unless you're going for one of the heavier miniguns from the RBB), for
> the same reason the HK 227 Paul mentioned bounces off: its base Power
> doesn't exceed the armor rating.
I think I have found a way of doing it <gr> HK 227 on fullauto w/ 6 success
will do base 7M add 10/3 to that for the FA and 0/3 for the 6 success so
at the end you will be doing 17DD damage (Yes I use one of those weird
damage code thingys) 17 Is higher than the armour class and so Bham he
takes damage and doing DD damage it is unlikley (unless body = 15) the poor
sod will stage it down much and so the armour degrades for the next turn
<gr>

((Note: If any trolls ever get HGMA conviscate it, trying to shoot them out
of it take Waaayyy to long))

> --
> Gurth
Arggghhhhh!!! Lost my sig again!
Tim-Ntoo
Message no. 17
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:38:02 +0000
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, L Canthros wrote:

> >You assume its a car... could be someone is using Paranormal Guide To
> >North America and wants to go Behemoth hunting? :)
>
> Or perhaps the poor fool is going after or up against someone with
> milspec armor?
In either case simply halve the Hardened Armour rating, see if it can
penetrate at all, and if it can apply damage. My comment re the car is the
only part where it makes any difference - of course you could extend that
to armour as well, eg shooting through a car door, teh person's body
armour isn't halved, neither is the car's Body.


The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 18
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:11:11 -0800
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Shane Courtrille wrote:

> > the same reason the HK 227 Paul mentioned bounces off: its base Power
> > doesn't exceed the armor rating.
>
> I must have really missed some basic rule somewhere... can someone
> point me to the location in the book of this rule about power having
> to exceed armor...Is this just for hardened armor or what? :) help!
> :) hehehe
> *wave*
>
> Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
>

What see the sections on Vehicle armor and Hardened Armor in SRII

~Tim
Message no. 19
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:44:09 -0800
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Tim Coxon wrote:

> I think I have found a way of doing it <gr> HK 227 on fullauto w/ 6 success
> will do base 7M add 10/3 to that for the FA and 0/3 for the 6 success so
> at the end you will be doing 17DD damage (Yes I use one of those weird
> damage code thingys) 17 Is higher than the armour class and so Bham he
> takes damage and doing DD damage it is unlikley (unless body = 15) the poor
> sod will stage it down much and so the armour degrades for the next turn
> <gr>

yeah, I guess...if you happen to ignore the stipulation that you compare
BASE damage against the armor. The rules mention that explicitly. The
reasoning is that if an individual round doesn't have enough power to
penetrate the armor, then a dozen more little flattened slugs stuck to the
armor won't affect the damage level much.

>
> ((Note: If any trolls ever get HGMA conviscate it, trying to shoot them out
> of it take Waaayyy to long))
>


~Tim
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:42:19 +0100
Shane Courtrille said on 13:52/ 4 Feb 01...

> > the same reason the HK 227 Paul mentioned bounces off: its base Power
> > doesn't exceed the armor rating.
>
> I must have really missed some basic rule somewhere... can someone
> point me to the location in the book of this rule about power having
> to exceed armor...Is this just for hardened armor or what? :) help!

Fields of Fire page 53, when talking about the gel pack armor, says that
if a weapon's base Power doesn't exceed the gel pack's armor rating, it
won't penetrate. Since gel packs are a way of making your armor hardened,
I've always assumed (and I talked Damion into agreeing with me :) that it
also applies to all other hardened armor, like the mililtary grade armors
on page 58. This is only for hardened armor, not for the standard jackets
and things you can buy in SRII or the SSC.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to remind me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:42:19 +0100
Tim Coxon said on 14:44/ 7 Mar 97...

> I think I have found a way of doing it <gr> HK 227 on fullauto w/ 6 success
> will do base 7M add 10/3 to that for the FA and 0/3 for the 6 success so
> at the end you will be doing 17DD damage (Yes I use one of those weird
> damage code thingys) 17 Is higher than the armour class and so Bham he
> takes damage and doing DD damage it is unlikley (unless body = 15) the poor
> sod will stage it down much and so the armour degrades for the next turn
> <gr>

You need to practise your munchkin skills a bit more before giving this a
second attempt :) Whether or not ammo bounces off heavy armor depends on
the _base_ Power Level of the round, without being modified for bursts. So
if you have an armor with a Ballistic rating 15 and fire APDS from a 7M
SMG at it, the rounds bounce off -- 15 / 2 = 7 (rounded down, as SRII
directs us to), which is not less than the Power of 7 of the weapon.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to remind me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:52:44 +0100
Tim Cooper said on 12:44/11 Mar 97...

> yeah, I guess...if you happen to ignore the stipulation that you compare
> BASE damage against the armor. The rules mention that explicitly. The
> reasoning is that if an individual round doesn't have enough power to
> penetrate the armor, then a dozen more little flattened slugs stuck to the
> armor won't affect the damage level much.

Although, technically, that isn't true either. Fire enough of those rounds
in or near the same spot, and eventually you will get through. With a
hand-held weapon and a moving target that's a lot more difficult than it
sounds, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to remind me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 23
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS/HARDENED ARMOR QUESTION
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:49:46 EST
On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:52:44 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Tim Cooper said on 12:44/11 Mar 97...
>
>> yeah, I guess...if you happen to ignore the stipulation that you
compare
>> BASE damage against the armor. The rules mention that explicitly.
The
>> reasoning is that if an individual round doesn't have enough power to
>> penetrate the armor, then a dozen more little flattened slugs stuck to
the
>> armor won't affect the damage level much.
>
>Although, technically, that isn't true either. Fire enough of those
rounds
>in or near the same spot, and eventually you will get through. With a
>hand-held weapon and a moving target that's a lot more difficult than
>it sounds, though :)

Key Word: EVENTUALLY

Not a luxury that many runners have.

Also if you manage to get (and maintain) some sort of sustained,
concentrated fire on some target such that you will EVENTUALLY get
through it's armor, and the target doesn't react to either A) Kill you,
or B) Get out of the line of fire.... Then WHY ARE YOU WASTING AMMO
SHOOTING AT IT!!!??!!

:)
~Tim

Further Reading

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