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Message no. 1
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: APDS rounds
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 18:41:40 -0600
How exactly do these little buggers work? AP = Armor Piercing, this much I
understand. DS = Discarding Sabot. I thought sabots were pieces of metal,
plastic, etc that fit around the outside of a rocket so it would seal in the
launching tube right (fins aren't exactly airtight...) Do APDS rounds have
guidance fins, or what? I thought bullets worked by spin stabilization.
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 20:40:41 -0500
>>>>> "GM" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.lis.uiuc.edu> writes:

GM> How exactly do these little buggers work? AP = Armor Piercing, this
GM> much I understand. DS = Discarding Sabot. I thought sabots were
GM> pieces of metal, plastic, etc that fit around the outside of a rocket
GM> so it would seal in the launching tube right (fins aren't exactly
GM> airtight...) Do APDS rounds have guidance fins, or what? I thought
GM> bullets worked by spin stabilization.

Normal bullets spin, even many flechettes do; fin-stabilized flechettes
often don't, though, and they usually have ``FS'' in the abbreviation.

A sabot (pronounced ``saabo'') is a sheath of plastic or metal around a
penetrator. The sabot breaks away when the package leaves the barrel. You
are correct in your understanding. When fired from a rifle (rifled barrel,
not a longarm), some spin is imparted to the whole package.

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Message no. 3
From: Twist <winterh@******.EMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 22:10:49 EDT
>
> A sabot (pronounced ``saabo'') is a sheath of plastic or metal around a
> penetrator. The sabot breaks away when the package leaves the barrel. You
> are correct in your understanding. When fired from a rifle (rifled barrel,
> not a longarm), some spin is imparted to the whole package.
>
So are Teflon coated bullets considered Discarding Sabot?
Message no. 4
From: Michael Garoni <Michael_Garoni@****.INTERSOLV.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 14:27:00 LCL
)How exactly do these little buggers work? AP = Armor Piercing, this much I
)understand. DS = Discarding Sabot. I thought sabots were pieces of metal,
)plastic, etc that fit around the outside of a rocket so it would seal in the
)launching tube right (fins aren't exactly airtight...) Do APDS rounds have
)guidance fins, or what? I thought bullets worked by spin stabilization.

A discarding sabot IS a piece of metal (usually though it can be plastic) that
fits around a core projectile. In a non rocket weapon, this effectively,
temporarily increases the calibre of the round. ie a 4mm projectile in 9mm
pistol. Why would you do this ? My understanding is that the sabot is simply
designed to seal the barrel and allow the smaller projectile to be pushed by the
larger calibre gun. This means that the actual round has more kinetic energy.
The round goes a lot faster! This sort of stuff really exists now, although
mostly on tank rounds. I have heard of a solid shotgun slug that also uses
this.

There are no fins on an APDS round, and in Shadowrun they are spin stabilized.

-Obi Wan
Message no. 5
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 16:22:39 +1100
>So are Teflon coated bullets considered Discarding Sabot?


Not realy, the only use for teflon bullets it to prevent them causing as
much barrel wear. They don't cut through armour as some might be lead
to believe. The only reason APDS round go through armour so well is that
they go a good deal faster than the standard round. By the way what do
others on this list think about silencing APDS. Personally I believe that it
wouldn't work very well as you need all the power in the round that you can
get to make it go through things like butter, and as silencers tend to slow
down rounds in the barrel (not by much true, but they do slow down),
this would have a greater effect on APDS than on normal rounds (as the
sabot doesn't discard until after exiting the barrel).

A'Deus.
Message no. 6
From: Michael Garoni <Michael_Garoni@****.INTERSOLV.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 17:15:00 LCL
}>
}> A sabot (pronounced ``saabo'') is a sheath of plastic or metal around a
}> penetrator. The sabot breaks away when the package leaves the barrel. You
}> are correct in your understanding. When fired from a rifle (rifled barrel,
}> not a longarm), some spin is imparted to the whole package.
}>
}So are Teflon coated bullets considered Discarding Sabot?

No. A discarding sabot is just that - discarding. Teflon Coated bullets are
considered to be simply armour piercing. I don't know if this is the fact or
not. Typically AP rounds have some kind of hardened penetrator encased in the
lead of the round. ie I heard about one round that uses a lead projectile
around a tungsten "spike". The lead slows down and deforms while the tungsten
goes through. Again I don't know if this actually works ^shrug^.

-Obi Wan
Message no. 7
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:50:38 -0500
APDS, aka munchkin rounds. An APDS round is a hollow bullet with a smaller
piece of metal inside, steel or somesuch, I believe. When the bullet strikes
an object it can't penetrate, armor, bullet-proof glass, etc., it flattens and
breaks open allowing the smaller sabot out. The sabot has a much smaller
striking area, so it can penetrate more easily. P=F/A and all that.

Matt
Message no. 8
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:52:07 -0500
Hmmm, seems it got explained to me incorrectly. Oh well. Won't be the
first time.

Matt the misinformed again, dammit.
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:00:46 -0500
>>>>> "MG" == Michael Garoni
<Michael_Garoni@****.intersolv.com> writes:

MG> Teflon Coated bullets are considered to be simply armour piercing. I
MG> don't know if this is the fact or not.

This is not correct. Rounds are coated in teflon to reduce barrel wear, the
same reason rounds are jacketed in copper. Teflon does /not/ improve
penetration characteristics of the round. Jacketing rounds in a hard metal
(ie, steel) /does/ increase penetration characteristics; FMJ is considered
a light armor penetrating round.

MG> Typically AP rounds have some kind of hardened penetrator encased in
MG> the lead of the round.

This is also not correct. Steel or iron core rounds exist to increase
velocity (reduced mass + same powder = greater acceleration); they still
mushroom on impact.

MG> ie I heard about one round that uses a lead projectile around a
MG> tungsten "spike". The lead slows down and deforms while the tungsten
MG> goes through. Again I don't know if this actually works ^shrug^.

This may possibly work, but I doubt it. Armor Piercing rounds work by
retaining their kinetic energy, which means as little of the projectile
deforms on impact as possible. Damage is caused by delivering as much of
the KE as possible which means the projectile will deform significantly.
Thus, AP rounds penetrate armor better than normal, but they do less damage
when they do.

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Message no. 10
From: Schnood <cdjworks@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:52:06 -0500
> APDS, aka munchkin rounds. An APDS round is a hollow bullet
>with a smaller
>piece of metal inside, steel or somesuch, I believe. When the
>bullet strikes
>an object it can't penetrate, armor, bullet-proof glass, etc.,
>it flattens and
>breaks open allowing the smaller sabot out. The sabot has a
>much smaller
>striking area, so it can penetrate more easily. P=F/A and all
>that.

Eh? I believe that with a discarding sabot round, as soon as the package
(the penetrator and the the sabot (the casing around the penetrator))
leaves the barrel the sabot comes off the penetrator because of air
resistance. The penetrator keeps steady because of spin and since it has
a smaller profile, has a smaller contact area and loses less velocity due
to air resistance so it also has a greater velocity. Because of this it
exerts a greater pressure on the impact point, so it passes through more
things. Oh well...

---
Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster.
Message no. 11
From: Andrew May <amay@****.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 09:05:24 +0100
Could somone explain the effects of Explosive APDS rounds?

Andrew
Message no. 12
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:46:01 +0100
>
> Could somone explain the effects of Explosive APDS rounds?
>
> Andrew
>
>

Hmmm.

Do the rules allow for them?
Are they possible?

The SRII firearms rules are so far from reality that I find this
question extremely confusing.

Sorry to answer a question with a question.

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 13
From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@********.IP.NET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:25:18 -0400
On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:

> >
> > Could somone explain the effects of Explosive APDS rounds?
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
>
> Hmmm.
>
> Do the rules allow for them?
> Are they possible?
>
> The SRII firearms rules are so far from reality that I find this
> question extremely confusing.
>
> Sorry to answer a question with a question.
>
> GLO

Well, in Fields of Fire, one of the ShadowTalk comments
about a light pistol mentioned using Exploding APDS
rounds to make it more effective. (Don't have my FoF
book on me right now, so I can't give a page number).

mark

_____ _ |\ o|\ | ______ I n t e r n e t P r e s e n c e & Publishing
| / | \ || \ |\ |__ | 1700 World Trade Center ofc: 804.446.9060
| \_ |_/.||_/.| \|\_ | Norfolk, Virginia 23510 fax: 804.446.9061
| | www: http://www.ip.net/ email: mark@***.ip.net
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:16:33 -0400
>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew May <amay@****.UIUC.EDU> writes:

Andrew> Could somone explain the effects of Explosive APDS rounds?

There is none: they're effectively impossible to manufacture given the
materials science technology of today or projected for 2050.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 15
From: Electron Dancer <C598706@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:23:36 CDT
The basic theory behind the two types of round make them a relatively useless
type (not to mention almost impossible to make).

APDS rounds are a high density (depleted uranium or tungsten carbide) "nail"
surrounded by a high-density plastic "ring". When fired, the plastic ring
increases the effective diameter of the nail, letting it take advantage of a
great amount of propellant. After leaving the barrel, the ring, called a
sabot, discards (blows off of) the nail. (hence the DS) The high density nail
continues into the target, hitting with much force but little frontal area.
Thus, it punches right through the standard Kevlar armor, and in the process
doesn't tumble as much (so lesser internal injuries, but it gets there)

Explosive rounds, on the other hand, rely on a massive round (contains the
explosive, after all) that detonates on solid contact. If the target is
wearing armor, there is a good chance that it will detonate early, outside the
target's body, and actually do less damage (but make a spectacular light show).
Against non- or lightly-armored targets, the explosion is inside the body,
doing massive internal damage.

So, the idea of an Explosive APDS round is ludicrous.

--Trondo-->
Message no. 16
From: Jeremy Smith <jsmith@*****.ORG>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:35:44 -0500
>So, the idea of an Explosive APDS round is ludicrous.

Well, it's about time SOMEbody said that.
I agree 100%

jeremy
Oh, trondo wrote the above quoted material

** aren't you happy I don't have a HUGE sig? Boy, are those things annoying**
Message no. 17
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:40:00 -0700
Explosive APDS ludicrous? Well, amybe, but how about his thought...

What if the discarding sabot isn't plastic (explosives instead), and
doesn't discard? Wouldn't this (maybe) be able to combine the two
affects in one round? If this is the case, then for game purposes (which
I actually only saw once; we had a troll in our group that everyone in
the group, including the GM hated. So the troll got killed with
exploding APDS. Called shot to his armored head.), I simply combine the
two affects together. Maybe not realistic or accurate, but makes for
easy playability.

Erik
Message no. 18
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:13:20 -0400
>>>>> "Erik" == Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
writes:

Erik> Explosive APDS ludicrous? Well, amybe, but how about his thought...

As I said, and was backed up by a more detailed description, given today's
material science (and what's been presented in 2050), AP & explosive rounds
is an impossible combination.

Erik> What if the discarding sabot isn't plastic (explosives instead), and
Erik> doesn't discard? Wouldn't this (maybe) be able to combine the two
Erik> affects in one round?

No, it won't, and here's why:

Take a high-density 4x30mm nail and wrap enough low-density Teflon around
it to increase the diameter to about 10mm: you can now fire this round out
of a 10mm weapon, and the total energy of the combined round is the same as
that of a normal 10mm round. Now, when the sabot is discarded, it takes
with it a percentage of energy equivalent to it's percentage of mass, since
energy is a function of mass times velocity, often less than 10% of the
total energy. The remaining 90% of the energy stays with the nail. Since
penetration is a function of the impact area of the of the penetrator over
it's total energy, that nail is going to punch right through armor that
would otherwise stop a normal 10mm round. The down-side is that it's going
to do the same to whatever's inside that armor, because "damage" is a
function of energy transfer, and the penetrator retains most of it's energy
on impact. That's why AP munitions are great against armor, but don't do as
much damage as solid or HE rounds.

If the sabot were to not discard, then the total impact area over energy is
the same as a normal round, and thus having a high-density penetrator is
effectively useless. And your explosive detonates outside the armor, making
the useless penetrator even more useless.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |Earth, presumably from outer space.
Message no. 19
From: Lorenzo Robles <ROBLES_L75@******.PB.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:17:02 -0500
I think combining explosive with APDS rounds would defeat the purpose of the
round.The increased frontal area of thr round would cause it to not slice
through armor. Why not have the characters take normal explosive rounds and
have them cut a triangle shape into the head, then coat the head with silicon
(easily availible as a liquid in motorcycle shops for sealing helmet cracks)
The silicon would help the round keep its structural integrity as its triangularshape
helped cut through armor. Not as effective as APDS or explosive rounds
seperatly but a good compromise.

Lorenzo (Robles_L75@******.pb.utexas.edu)
Obidience is submission masked with gravity-J.O'Batt_The Crow_
Message no. 20
From: Andrew May <amay@****.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:34:47 -0400
Thanks Anyways
Message no. 21
From: Andrew May <amay@****.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:38:09 -0400
I have FOF, no mention of APDS rules.
Message no. 22
From: "Brian E. Angliss" <ANGLISS@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:35:59 -0400
Ok, here's my two nuyen's worth in defense(yep, that's what I said) of APDS
Explosive(or API, for that matter).

In my game the APDSEx round is a penetrator that is made of a super-hard
crystaline matrix that, heated by the penetration of passing through armor,
detonates inside the target's armor, usually with the velocity of the
penetrator putting it inside the target's meat body before explosion. This
assumes a lot, I admit, such as the advancement of chemical explosive tech
well beyond where it is now, but considering the pace of technology in
general, it isn't necessarily impossible.

The API ammo is even easier: Make the penetrator something like magnesium,
or if that isn't strong enough, titanium or tungsten with a core of magnesium.
Again, the heat of passing through the armor provides enough energy to spark
the magnesium, and you have API ammo.

I haven't any calculations to support these ideas, but they are at least
physically reasonable, if ultimately wrong. And, IM(NSO)HO, anyone who pulls
out the physics book to do the calculations takes the game WAY too seriously.

Unless you're a physics major, of course :)

Brian
Message no. 23
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:17:18 -0700
>What if the discarding sabot isn't plastic (explosives instead), and
>doesn't discard?
> Called shot to his armored head.), I simply combine the
>two affects together. Maybe not realistic or accurate, but makes for
>easy playability.
>
>Erik

I agree, it doesn't make sense, but adding together lots of bonuses to get
something more powerful is very easy (even if it don't make sense).

Nightfox

Smartlink II with vision mag 3

Hmmm Mag 3 cuts down extreme range to just short with a 4 TN.
Then the SM II cuts in a with a -2 extra bonus for extreme range for a grand
total of a 0 TN (changed to 2 since no TN < 2)

It makes PERFECT"?" math sense. But if you look at what it say you see the flaw.

Basically it says that a gun with SM II will be BETTTER at hitting distant
targets than it will close ones - this makes NO SENSE.

Nightfox
Message no. 24
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:38:48 -0700
I suppose a better name for this is a la Traveller or Striker:
KEAP and KEAPER (Kinetic Energy Armor-Piercing Explosive Round).
By the way, energy density across the front of the AP round isn't
the whole story in penetration. The WWII "King Tiger" delivered 12-16
megajoules compared to the M1A1's 10, with roughly the same energy
density. But the M1A1's round goes through 3 times the armor. Material
hardness is quite important, too.
Cubane is insanely hard. In a discussion with Robert L. Forward,
he opined that it was probably the only stuff capable of making a
ground-to-space elevator ("tether") feasible.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 25
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:22:13 -0400
>>>>> "Brian" == Brian E Angliss
>>>>> <ANGLISS%PSUECL.bitnet@*****.NIC.SURFNET.NL> writes:

Brian> In my game the APDSEx round is a penetrator that is made of a
Brian> super-hard crystaline matrix that, heated by the penetration of
Brian> passing through armor, detonates inside the target's armor, usually
Brian> with the velocity of the penetrator putting it inside the target's
Brian> meat body before explosion. This assumes a lot, I admit, such as
Brian> the advancement of chemical explosive tech well beyond where it is
Brian> now, but considering the pace of technology in general, it isn't
Brian> necessarily impossible.

The problem with this is hardness isn't the only requirement of a
penetrator. It also requires having a /very/ high tensile strength to
resist deformation. There aren't too many materials with the requisite
hardness and tensile strength, tungsten carbide & titanium alloys, and a
lot of the very heavy metals like uranium are about it. Crystals shatter,
and the harder their matrix the easier they shatter (take diamond for
instance: it's the hardest natural substance but it's also one of the
brittlest). If your round shatters on impact, it's useless.

BTW, you do NOT want a heat or impact triggered explosive. Why not? Drop
your gun and watch your magazine go up. And don't go storing your weapons
in the glove compartment or you can expect to be purchasing a new vehicle
real soon. That's assuming that barrel friction and propellant gas heat, or
the sudden acceleration don't detonate your rounds in the barrel or firing
chamber, putting a nasty cramp in your lifestyle to go with the dents in
your face.

As I keep harping, materials science today, and projected into 2050, do NOT
allow for this kind of round. The guys at FASA very deliberately kept
munitions research and advancement to a bare minimum (to keep you combat-
happy schmucks alive).

Brian> The API ammo is even easier:

Depleted uranium is AP/I: Armor-Piercing/Incendiary.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 26
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:25:12 -0400
>>>>> "Lorenzo" == Lorenzo Robles
<ROBLES_L75@******.PB.UTEXAS.EDU> writes:

Lorenzo> I think combining explosive with APDS rounds would defeat the
Lorenzo> purpose of the round. The increased frontal area of thr round
Lorenzo> would cause it to not slice through armor. Why not have the
Lorenzo> characters take normal explosive rounds and have them cut a
Lorenzo> triangle shape into the head, then coat the head with silicon
Lorenzo> (easily availible as a liquid in motorcycle shops for sealing
Lorenzo> helmet cracks) The silicon would help the round keep its
Lorenzo> structural integrity as its triangularshape helped cut through
Lorenzo> armor. Not as effective as APDS or explosive rounds seperatly but
Lorenzo> a good compromise.

No, silicon won't do a damn thing. You want the materials with the highest
hardness and tensile strength you can get; anything less will just deform
on impact, regardless of the shape or what you put on the nose.

In fact, if anything, coating the nose with silicon will /reduce/
penetration characteristics, just like teflon does.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 27
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:57:26 -0500
Dual-fire weapons is how you do this.

Build what is essentially a pinpoint ClassIV laser weapon. Mount it in the
lower barrel of a 2-barrel shotgun (over-under is good here). When ya pull
the trigger, it triggers the Class IV (burns holes through armor plate. If
you don't believe me, I'll take you down to the Laser Engineering labs on
campus and you can watch this happen) and then fires an APDS round through the
(rifled) top barrel. Er, better yet, an explosive round.

Laser blows hole -> explosive hits -> flamethrower. Or nasty explosion and
shrapnel casings. Either way.
Message no. 28
From: Alan Hill <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:57:20 -0400
On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Dual-fire weapons is how you do this.
>
> Build what is essentially a pinpoint ClassIV laser weapon. Mount it in the
> lower barrel of a 2-barrel shotgun (over-under is good here). When ya pull
> the trigger, it triggers the Class IV (burns holes through armor plate. If
> you don't believe me, I'll take you down to the Laser Engineering labs on
> campus and you can watch this happen) and then fires an APDS round through the
> (rifled) top barrel. Er, better yet, an explosive round.
>
> Laser blows hole -> explosive hits -> flamethrower. Or nasty explosion and
> shrapnel casings. Either way.
>

Wow. That sounds like it could work.. Though you'd want a smartgun-2 or
something to calculate distance and the angle the laser would have to
drill at in order to provide the correct opening for the bullet...

How about: If the laser overcomes the barrier rating of the Armor, cover,
etc. then the round is able to completly ignore the armor for that shot,
but there is no permanent reduction in the barrier rating, nor does it
help on subsequent shots....

This, of course wouldn't help with a Physical Barrier Spell, or the like.

BTW, speaking of spells, is there a repository for new SR spells around?
And has anyone re-created Turn to Goo? (I LOVE that spell).

Shadow (Wandering off topic)
Message no. 29
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:13:12 -0500
You know, you could also use neurotoxins on APDS rounds.

YES! That's it!

Dualfire weapons firing curare-loaded APDS ammunition.

Holy shit...

"Okay, you just took about 30D damage due to toxins. Yer DED."
Message no. 30
From: Alan Hill <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 22:18:20 -0400
On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

>
> "Okay, you just took about 30D damage due to toxins. Yer DED."
>

Geez.. I think kinetic lead poisoning is enough...

Shadow (Allergy: Severe, High Velocity Rounds)
Message no. 31
From: Neil Smith <NSMITH@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:54:10 GMT
Trondo:
> Explosive rounds, on the other hand, rely on a massive round
> that detonates on solid contact.

Speaking of goldfish, there's an interesting way that explosive
rounds can fail, called "barrelcrash" (as taken from "Consider
Phlebas" by Iain Banks). If you fire HE rounds on full auto, in a
dense atmosphere (eg. under water, surface of Venus), the first
round will detonate at the target. The second round will detonate
when it hits the shock-wave of the first round exploding, just
before the target. The third round will detonate on the shock wave
of the second, a bit closer still. The fourth round... you get the
idea. The nth round explodes in the barrel. As does the rest of
the gun. The whole thing is mentioned as having a distinctive noise
(and probably looks quite pretty as well).

Of course, the same thing might happen with faulty (ie cheap)
explosive rounds in air. Food for thought? Note: I make no comment
as to how realistic this is. No flames, please.

Neil.
Message no. 32
From: Jeremy Smith <jsmith@*****.ORG>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:30:56 -0500
Neil writes
>Of course, the same thing might happen with faulty (ie cheap)
>explosive rounds in air.

I would imagine the rounds wouldn't have to nesseccarily be _cheap_, but
highly sensitive, and produce a pretty hefty shock wave within normal
atmospheric conditions. But, I don't see the reliability in this
reasoning (not flaming you Neil :).
The awesome acceleration the projectile undergoes during firing would
make the bullet explode almost instantly. So, the _first_ bullet
would explode in the gun, rendering the gun unusable until it's fixed
and the shooter...well, eerr, hurt really bad.
Hence, you'll never see that happen in any of my games (unless they roll all 1's, in
which case they'll use karma :( (:


Still, it would be very interesting to witness.

Jeremy <---Geez doc, these posts are getting longer and longer and longer...
Doc: Hehe, that's what she said.
Message no. 33
From: Neil Smith <NSMITH@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:48:04 GMT
Jeremy writes:
> Neil writes
> >Of course, the same thing might happen with faulty (ie cheap)
> >explosive rounds in air.
>
> I would imagine the rounds wouldn't have to nesseccarily be _cheap_, but
> highly sensitive, and produce a pretty hefty shock wave within normal
> atmospheric conditions. But, I don't see the reliability in this
> reasoning

Well, if Ares makes a faulty (ie over-sensitive) batch of HE rounds,
rather than going through the dangerous process of disarming them
all, Ares could sell them cheap on the street. The rounds are
disposed of, money comes in to corp. coffers and as a bonus some of
those pesky shadowrunner people buy them as a bargain and get to blow
themselves up! Everyone wins! (Apart form the 'runners, and they
don't count).

(Also, HE rounds might be like grenades: they arm on leaving the
barrel.)

Neil.
Message no. 34
From: Electron Dancer <C598706@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:13:05 CDT
-Qouth Erik:

>What if the discarding sabot isn't plastic (explosives instead), and
>doesn't discard? Wouldn't this (maybe) be able to combine the two
>affects in one round? If this is the case, then for game purposes (which
>I actually only saw once; we had a troll in our group that everyone in
>the group, including the GM hated. So the troll got killed with
>exploding APDS. Called shot to his armored head.), I simply combine the
>two affects together. Maybe not realistic or accurate, but makes for
>easy playability.

If you make the sabot non-discarding, then you lose the advantage of the sub-
caliber AP spike (small area+lots of pushúst). If I understand you right,
you have the outer 1/3-1/2 of the round exploding on contact. This will not
give the full effect of the straight explosive round, as there isn't enough
explosive to have that effect. Also, the fact that the spike is now a much
slower projectile, and is getting knocked way off trajectory by the explosion,
means that the AP portion is going to have much less effect, perhaps even
worse than a standard or FMJ round.BTW: my fav round is the General AP
from the first NERPS supplement...effective on everybody, and not too $$$.

--Trondo-->
Message no. 35
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:01:39 -0400
>>>>> "Neil" == Neil Smith <NSMITH@***.AC.UK> writes:

Neil> Speaking of goldfish, there's an interesting way that explosive
Neil> rounds can fail, called "barrelcrash" (as taken from "Consider
Neil> Phlebas" by Iain Banks). [...]

In essence, this is /exactly/ how reactive armor works.

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Message no. 36
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:04:38 -0400
>>>>> "Alan" == Alan Hill <shadow@******.NET> writes:

Alan> Wow. That sounds like it could work..

It does. That's why, depending on mission, attack a/c carry a variety of
munition mixes, alternating between high KE penetrators, HE, and HEDP, and
possibly others. The KE penetrators chew up the armor, the HE & HEDP rounds
blast through, and the fragmentation from the HEDP takes out personnel.

But since Shadowrun doesn't have anything really solid about armor
degradation...

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Message no. 37
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:33:41 -0700
Actually, the first purpose-built armor piercing rounds (besides
solid shot) were called HVAP, for High Velocity Armor Piercing. Germans
had them in WWII, they were basically a lightened round with a tungsten core
and plastic filler, very much like APDS without discarding the sabot.
They had better armor penetration than solid shot at close ranges, but
fared worse at long range because they had a higher drag ratio from the
lower sectional density of the round (that is, the light parts of the
round tended to slow the heavy parts of the round).
While that was going on, solid shot designers noticed main
problem with solid shot was its tendency to glance off of armor, and its
tendency to shatter on face-hardened armor (naval designers had noticed
this at the turn of the century). They began using stronger materials
(again, tungsten but that was expensive) to fix the latter problem. They
developed a soft metal cap to fix the former problem. This ammunition
was Armor Piercing Capped (APC).
APC worked nice, but it had flight problems due to the blunt nose
of the soft metal cap. So designers added a sort of plastic shell to
streamline things, and now we had APCBC (Armor Piercing Capped
Ballistically Capped).
Meanwhile, the HVAP designers noted that they could solve their
problems by increasing sectional density. This eventually led to a dart
shaped projectile embedded in a soft material which could fall away in
flight: APDS. This had the benefit of increasing velocity, which
improved accuracy. Unfortunately, the first APDS rounds shed their
sabots in ways which generally worsened accuracy, so that the advantage
was negated.
The hollow-charge principle still worked fine, so HEAP became the
round of choice. Feedback from conflicts such as the Israeli-Arab wars
brought armor-spalling to the attention of designers. The Israelis
noticed that big HE rounds striking tanks or especially aluminum plated
APCs would cause fragments on the inside face of the armor to peel off at
high speeds and cause casualties. These were especially bad in aluminum
APCs, since aluminum spalled easily and there were a large number of
targets (troops). Often, even when the tank survived the hit armor
intact, the crew was KO'ed from concussion.
To maximize these effects, HESH (High-Explosive Squash Head) was
developed.
Armor designers got wise to this, and began developing layered
and spaced armors, and eventually the Reactive Armor that is now
present. These countermeasures work well against HEAP and HESH, but are
virtually useless against APDS, and the refinements APFSDS (Armor
Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot) and APFSDSDU (APFSDS Depleted
Uranium). The fin stabilization came in when smoothbores became the
cannon of choice for high velocites (smoothbores allow much higher
velocities to be reached without wearing the "lands", or rifling of the
barrel).
The future in "slugthrowers" lies in Electro-thermal propulsion
and gauss guns, and smart munitions. I believe the Army doesn't intend
to purchase a replacement for the M-16A2 because they believe the next
infantry weapon will be an energy weapon.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 38
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:13:40 -0700
Nightfox mentioned combining a mag 3 scope with Smartlink II. I don't
know exactly what the rules say (I think they agree with me), but what we
have done in our game for years now, well before the SMII, is that the
two targeting systems are incompatible. You can't stack the bonuses.
Makes things a bit more difficult all around.

This came into major play once when we tangled with some Jesse Jones guy,
who was then fleeing. We had one guy who was tired of messing with
Jesse, so he decided to try to cap him long range. It did turn out that
the scope was better, but only marginally.

Erik
Message no. 39
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 22:03:14 -0400
On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, Andrew May wrote:

> Could somone explain the effects of Explosive APDS rounds?
>
In most cases, death.
Message no. 40
From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@********.IP.NET>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:59:39 -0400
On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> But since Shadowrun doesn't have anything really solid about armor
> degradation...

Doesn't FoF mention something about Armor degradation?

mark

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Message no. 41
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS Rounds
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:45:47 -0400
>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Imbriaco <mark@********.IP.NET>
writes:

Mark> On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> But since Shadowrun doesn't have anything really solid about armor
>> degradation...

Mark> Doesn't FoF mention something about Armor degradation?

Not the kind of degradation I'm talking about. Take your favorite bit of
Kevlar II vest. Now chew it up with a chainsaw. That's the kind of damage
that an Apache's or a Warthog's cannon does to armor. Armor technology in
Shadowrun has, as mentioned in FoF, for the first time in human history,
exceeded weapons technology, so the kind of degradation I'm talking about
just doesn't happen.

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