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Message no. 1
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:42:30 -0500 (EST)
Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm correct.

Player shoots target, gets X successes.
Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
to take no damage.

Example:
Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.

OR does it work like this?

Player shoots target, gets X successes.
These successes immediately stage up the damage.
Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
damage.

Example:
Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)
Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
Target takes 9D - 8 aggregate successes = no damage.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 2
From: Kyoto the Angel dann1@********.erols.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:07:03 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 2:43 PM
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?


>Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm correct.
>
>Player shoots target, gets X successes.
>Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
>to take no damage.
>
>Example:
>Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.
>
>OR does it work like this?
>
>Player shoots target, gets X successes.
>These successes immediately stage up the damage.
>Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
>damage.
>
>Example:
>Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)
>Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>Target takes 9D - 8 aggregate successes = no damage.
>
The latter is the way it's done.

Firearms can't go over D in SR3? Hmm....glad my GM doesn't run it that way,
seems more realistic to be able to overflow

Kyoto the Angel
AIM: AngelKyoto
ICQ: 29713335
Message no. 3
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:42:47 -0500
Drew Curtis wrote:
>
> Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm correct.
>
> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
> to take no damage.
>
> Example:
> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
> Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.
>
> OR does it work like this?
>
> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> These successes immediately stage up the damage.
> Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
> damage.
>
> Example:
> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
> Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)
> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
> Target takes 9D - 8 aggregate successes = no damage.


You compare successes before you stage damages, 'nuff said.
>
> Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
> http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
> Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.

--
Sanity is in the left pinky of the beholder
Message no. 4
From: Dodge d7582@*****.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:07:31 -0800
Drew Curtis wrote:
>
> Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm correct.
>
> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
> to take no damage.
>
> Example:
> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
> Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.
>
> OR does it work like this?
>
> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> These successes immediately stage up the damage.
> Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
> damage.
>
> Example:
> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
> Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)

I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go above D
damage?

Dodge
Message no. 5
From: Joshua Bell joshbell@**********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:08:44 -0500
At 04:07 PM 3/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Dodge wrote:
>I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go above D
>damage?

p. 114 Sr3d 2nd column top. ...maximum of D damage.

(not that I agree or disagree, just answering your question...)

Josh
Message no. 6
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:06:47 +1100
At 02:42 11/03/99 -0500, Drew Curtis wrote:
>Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm correct.
>Example:
>Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.
>
>OR does it work like this?
>Example:
>Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)
>Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>Target takes 9D - 8 aggregate successes = no damage.

Your first example is how a ranged attack is resolved in SR3. Your second
example is how (including a counterattack) a melee attack is resolved in SR3.
Since you're talking about shooting, your first example is correct. Further, in
melee combat the power of the attack is staged up once the damage level is
staged to deadly.





Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness
to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt.
- H. L. Mencken
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 7
From: Kyoto the Angel dann1@********.erols.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:31:37 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Dodge <d7582@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?


>Drew Curtis wrote:
>>
>> Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm
correct.
>>
>> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
>> Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
>> to take no damage.
>>
>> Example:
>> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>> Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.
>>
>> OR does it work like this?
>>
>> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
>> These successes immediately stage up the damage.
>> Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
>> damage.
>>
>> Example:
>> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>> Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)
>
>I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go above D
>damage?
>
I asked the same thing, and no one answered, let's hope they're wrong.

Kyoto the Angel
AIM: AngelKyoto
ICQ: 29713335
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:29:04 -0600
:Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm
correct.
:
:Player shoots target, gets X successes.
:Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
:to take no damage.

Thats the gist of the ranged combat procedure used in Sr2 & Sr3, yes.
In Sr3, "Dodging" using combat pool reduces attacker succeses.

:Example:
:Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
:range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
:Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
:Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.


That could happen, yes.

:OR does it work like this?
:
:Player shoots target, gets X successes.
:These successes immediately stage up the damage.
:Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
:damage.


This is how things are handled in MELEE combat, in Sr2 + Sr3. Damage
can't be staged past deadly (BTB basic rules, at least), so if you have
lots of armor and / or good body, melee isn't to risky. Note that combat
pool can't normally be used in melee dmage resitance tests.
In Sr3, in addition to staging, each 2 successes past those needed to
stage melee damage to deadly adds 1 to the attacks power, meaning a good
melee attack is likely to hurt even a big amrored target.

Modified version of your example:

Player punches target, gets 10 net successes (using "improved abilty" plus
some combat pool and a trolls reach or something). Fist damage is 9M stun
(easy for a troll, especially with bone lacing). Damage stages up to 9D
(fists can't go higher than D in SR3), and then is increased to 12D by
remaining succeses.

Target rolls 8 damage resitance successes (tons of armor, high body, plus
good rolling). Target takes 12D - 8 aggregate successes = no damage.



These effects are clear if you follow the approprite step by step
combat procedure (ranged combat Sr3 p. 109, melee combat Sr3 p. 122)

Mongoose







:Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated

Cool- can I have a job?
Message no. 9
From: Kyoto the Angel dann1@********.erols.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:32:51 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: grahamdrew <grahamdrew@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?


>Drew Curtis wrote:
>>
>> Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm
correct.
>>
>> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
>> Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
>> to take no damage.
>>
>> Example:
>> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>> Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.
>>
>> OR does it work like this?
>>
>> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
>> These successes immediately stage up the damage.
>> Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
>> damage.
>>
>> Example:
>> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
>> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
>> Damage stages up to 9D (firearms can't go higher than D in SR3)
>> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
>> Target takes 9D - 8 aggregate successes = no damage.
>
>
>You compare successes before you stage damages, 'nuff said.
>>
Really? Dunno if that's SR2, or my GM just does things differently, but
I've always rolled, staged up, target rolls, stages down (if possible), then
damage is taken

Kyoto the Angel
AIM: AngelKyoto
ICQ: 29713335
Message no. 10
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:56:06 -0600
:>I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go above D
:>damage?
:
:p. 114 Sr3d 2nd column top. ...maximum of D damage.
:
:(not that I agree or disagree, just answering your question...)
:
:Josh
:


Note that is after staging for >net< successes. Getting 10 successes
on a ranged attack is still good- it means the dude can get 10 resistance
successes and STILL take base damage.

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:49:30 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?


>
>
>:>I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go
above D
>:>damage?
>:
>:p. 114 Sr3d 2nd column top. ...maximum of D damage.
>:
>:(not that I agree or disagree, just answering your question...)
>:
>:Josh
>:
>
>
> Note that is after staging for >net< successes. Getting 10
successes
>on a ranged attack is still good- it means the dude can get 10
resistance
>successes and STILL take base damage.


Hmm...I thought this applied only to called shots, though...
Message no. 12
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:19:50 EST
In a message dated 3/11/99 2:43:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, dcurtis@***.net
writes:

> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
> to take no damage.
>
> Example:
> Player shoots target, gets 10 successes (using smartgun link at close
> range plus some combat pool or something). Gun damage is 9M
> Target rolls 8 successes back (armor plus good rolling).
> Target takes 9M + 2 aggregate successes = 9S.

The first example is (a) easier, and (b) correct, AFAIK. :-) It's how _I_ GM
it, anyway.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 13
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:36:21 EST
In a message dated 3/11/99 6:32:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dann1@********.erols.com writes:

> Really? Dunno if that's SR2, or my GM just does things differently, but
> I've always rolled, staged up, target rolls, stages down (if possible),
then
> damage is taken
>
> Kyoto the Angel
> AIM: AngelKyoto
> ICQ: 29713335
>

Does your GM have any weapons do MORE than D damage? If so, s/he uses the
_optional_ over-damage rule.

Which makes it simpler to just stage up, THEN roll resistance.

By _standard_ rules, however, where D is the highest _anything_ can go, that
becomes impractical; you have to compare successes _before_ doing any staging,
or the attacker potentially LOSES any staging levels from a really REALLY good
roll.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 14
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:39:25 EST
In a message dated 3/11/99 6:57:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

> Hmm...I thought this applied only to called shots, though...

No. To _every_ shot. :-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 15
From: Kyoto the Angel dann1@********.erols.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:15:06 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: GMPax@***.com <GMPax@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?


>In a message dated 3/11/99 6:32:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>dann1@********.erols.com writes:
>
>> Really? Dunno if that's SR2, or my GM just does things differently, but
>> I've always rolled, staged up, target rolls, stages down (if possible),
>then
>> damage is taken
>>
>> Kyoto the Angel
>> AIM: AngelKyoto
>> ICQ: 29713335
>>
>
>Does your GM have any weapons do MORE than D damage? If so, s/he uses the
>_optional_ over-damage rule.
>
>Which makes it simpler to just stage up, THEN roll resistance.
>
>By _standard_ rules, however, where D is the highest _anything_ can go,
that
>becomes impractical; you have to compare successes _before_ doing any
staging,
>or the attacker potentially LOSES any staging levels from a really REALLY
good
>roll.
>
Yeah, I guess he uses the over-damage rule. Although, damn, I had a phys.
ad with a katana doing 13S, or more (I think I hit overflow a couple times)
with every hit, and I nearly got killed by some vampire underling thing.
Man, that was one tense little battle.

Kyoto the Angel
AIM: AngelKyoto
ICQ: 29713335
Message no. 16
From: Jim, Mary-Louise & Charles redmen@*****.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:42:38 -0500
Kyoto the Angel wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GMPax@***.com <GMPax@***.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
> Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?
>
> >In a message dated 3/11/99 6:32:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >dann1@********.erols.com writes:
> >
> >> Really? Dunno if that's SR2, or my GM just does things differently, but
> >> I've always rolled, staged up, target rolls, stages down (if possible),
> >then
> >> damage is taken
> >>
> >> Kyoto the Angel
> >> AIM: AngelKyoto
> >> ICQ: 29713335
> >>
> >
> >Does your GM have any weapons do MORE than D damage? If so, s/he uses the
> >_optional_ over-damage rule.
> >
> >Which makes it simpler to just stage up, THEN roll resistance.
> >
> >By _standard_ rules, however, where D is the highest _anything_ can go,
> that
> >becomes impractical; you have to compare successes _before_ doing any
> staging,
> >or the attacker potentially LOSES any staging levels from a really REALLY
> good
> >roll.
> >
> Yeah, I guess he uses the over-damage rule. Although, damn, I had a phys.
> ad with a katana doing 13S, or more (I think I hit overflow a couple times)
> with every hit, and I nearly got killed by some vampire underling thing.
> Man, that was one tense little battle.
>
> Kyoto the Angel
> AIM: AngelKyoto
> ICQ: 29713335

remember when we had durasel and he did overflow 4 almost every turn
with the franchi
hehe..
i really loved that character

i only think it makes since for weapons to do more than D damage, if
someone is sprayed with a smg their insides could easily be turned to a
fine vapor, instantly killing them not a couple combat phases later
instantly

i also like the way we apply the success of the attack and then have the
target stage down from there it seems easier then comparing success then
staging up or down

- he is off to the great zugzug in the sky
Message no. 17
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:50:40 +1100
At 05:29 11/03/99 -0600, Mongoose wrote:
> This is how things are handled in MELEE combat, in Sr2 + Sr3. Damage
>can't be staged past deadly (BTB basic rules, at least), so if you have
>lots of armor and / or good body, melee isn't to risky. Note that combat
>pool can't normally be used in melee dmage resitance tests.

In SR3, combat pool dice (if any are left) may be added to all melee combat
damage resistance tests, irrespective of whether full defence or counter-attack
options are used.





Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness
to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt.
- H. L. Mencken
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 18
From: Kyoto the Angel dann1@********.erols.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:34:19 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim, Mary-Louise & Charles <redmen@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?


>Kyoto the Angel wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: GMPax@***.com <GMPax@***.com>
>> To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
>> Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: applying successes to combat: what order?
>>
>> >In a message dated 3/11/99 6:32:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> >dann1@********.erols.com writes:
>> >
>> >> Really? Dunno if that's SR2, or my GM just does things differently,
but
>> >> I've always rolled, staged up, target rolls, stages down (if
possible),
>> >then
>> >> damage is taken
>> >>
>> >> Kyoto the Angel
>> >> AIM: AngelKyoto
>> >> ICQ: 29713335
>> >>
>> >
>> >Does your GM have any weapons do MORE than D damage? If so, s/he uses
the
>> >_optional_ over-damage rule.
>> >
>> >Which makes it simpler to just stage up, THEN roll resistance.
>> >
>> >By _standard_ rules, however, where D is the highest _anything_ can go,
>> that
>> >becomes impractical; you have to compare successes _before_ doing any
>> staging,
>> >or the attacker potentially LOSES any staging levels from a really
REALLY
>> good
>> >roll.
>> >
>> Yeah, I guess he uses the over-damage rule. Although, damn, I had a
phys.
>> ad with a katana doing 13S, or more (I think I hit overflow a couple
times)
>> with every hit, and I nearly got killed by some vampire underling thing.
>> Man, that was one tense little battle.
>>
>> Kyoto the Angel
>> AIM: AngelKyoto
>> ICQ: 29713335
>
>remember when we had durasel and he did overflow 4 almost every turn
>with the franchi
>hehe..
>i really loved that character
>
>i only think it makes since for weapons to do more than D damage, if
>someone is sprayed with a smg their insides could easily be turned to a
>fine vapor, instantly killing them not a couple combat phases later
>instantly
>
>i also like the way we apply the success of the attack and then have the
>target stage down from there it seems easier then comparing success then
>staging up or down
>
Excellent point, because if you think of the order in a reality sense, it
looks like this: (the way we've done it)

First, Attacker fires shot at Victim (Roll, # of successes, then staged up)

Let's say he got 6 successes, with his gun, an Ares Predator, making it 9D+1

Ouch, I'd guess that's probably a shot right in the chest, maybe near brain
or heart also.

Victim then rolls body, with armor applied, we'll say he had a lined coat,
and got 4 successes

So, instead of taking a bullet that was fired with incredible accuracy, into
his heart, and dying, his armor and body managed to absorb enough of the
blow to not fall down dead from that shot.

Granted, he's hurt, but he isn't dead.

Personally, I see this as the order of combat realistically, and hence it
makes sense to me, to roll my successes, stage up, then he rolls his, stages
down, and takes that damage

Kyoto the Angel
AIM: AngelKyoto
ICQ: 29713335
Message no. 19
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:50:16 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Kyoto the Angel."
] First, Attacker fires shot at Victim (Roll, # of successes, then staged up)
]
] Let's say he got 6 successes, with his gun, an Ares Predator, making it 9D+1

<snip>

] Personally, I see this as the order of combat realistically, and hence it
] makes sense to me, to roll my successes, stage up, then he rolls his, stages
] down, and takes that damage
] Kyoto the Angel

If you're using damage levels beyond Deadly, then it makes no difference
what order you do it in.
Let's say Light=1, Moderate=2, Serious=3, Deadly=4, One Level
Beyond Deadly=5, etc. You roll, get 6 successes with your 9M gun. You
stage up the damage, to "5." Then the defender rolls his dodge and
resistance, and gets 4 successes. The damage goes down to "3," a Serious
wound.
Do the same thing, except compare successes first, then stage damage.
6 successes against 4 means the attacker nets two successes. The wound
level goes up to Serious. Same difference.
The only difference comes when you stage up first, but have no damage
levels beyond Deadly. Then the attacker gets a Deadly, and the defender's
4 successes take it down to Moderate, not Serious. The attacker loses out.

The way you're doing it, with damage levels beyond Deadly, it doesn't
matter at all what the order is. Stage first, compare successes first, it
just don't matter.

-Murder of One
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:31:14 +0100
According to Drew Curtis, at 14:42 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Here's how I understand it, I'm looking for verification that I'm correct.
>
> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> Target must resist against those successes plus the damage of the gun
> to take no damage.

The above is how it works per SR2/3 rules: first the target's successes
are subtracted from those of the attacker, and only _then_ do you stage
the damage.

> OR does it work like this?
>
> Player shoots target, gets X successes.
> These successes immediately stage up the damage.
> Target must resist against the adjusted damage of the gun to take no
> damage.

OTOH, this is a rule best implemented if you use SR1 staging rules (where
some weapons needed more or less than 2 successes to stage damage up or
down).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 21
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:44:09 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Scott Wheelock wrote:

> The way you're doing it, with damage levels beyond Deadly, it doesn't
> matter at all what the order is. Stage first, compare successes first, it
> just don't matter.
>
Makes a big difference though in a high level campaign, here's how:

Everyone has access to heavier armor. Although they don't wear it around
all the time, if there's an opportunity to get in somewhere where armor
won't make a difference they'll use it. Additionally, most cyberguys have
their bodies enhanced up around 10 or so.

Example: (compare successes first)
Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes
Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
Player takes 11S damage.

Example: (stage up first)
Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes.
Damage stages up to 11D and stops.
Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
Player takes no damage.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 22
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:58:40 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Drew Curtis."
] Example: (compare successes first)
] Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes
] Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
] a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
] Player takes 11S damage.
]
] Example: (stage up first)
] Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes.
] Damage stages up to 11D and stops.
] Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
] a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
] Player takes no damage.

Thank you for proving my point :) When you have Deadly as the
cap on damage, as your example did, then it matters what order you
do it in. Kyoto's campaign had damage levels (or so I thought)
beyond Deadly, therefore the order didn't matter.

-Murder of One
Message no. 23
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:38:26 -0600
>Example: (stage up first)
>Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes.
>Damage stages up to 11D and stops.

See, this is where I think you're going wrong. Isn't it in the rules that
each pair of successes beyond Deadly stages the *POWER* of the of the attack
up one? This would make the goon's assault rifle attack, with 8 successes,
14D instead of 11D.

Or is that a house rule that I just liked so much that I adopted it a long
time ago and thought it was official? (I hate wasting successes.)

>Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
>a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
>Player takes no damage.

How are you getting a TN of 3? Your examples never specified a specific
armor type, but I'll go on as if it were heavy security armor from the table
at the end of FIELDS OF FIRE (since that's the book I have closest to hand),
which gives us 7/5. His target number is 7 instead of 3, which suddenly
makes his assured success less assured. And his combat pool would be
reduced for every point of armor above his Quickness, which would cut down
on the number of dice he could roll to achieve those successes. He's gonna
get hurt on this one, you ask me.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 24
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:07:25 EST
In a message dated 3/12/99 2:33:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dann1@********.erols.com writes:

> Personally, I see this as the order of combat realistically, and hence it
> makes sense to me, to roll my successes, stage up, then he rolls his,
stages
> down, and takes that damage
>
> Kyoto the Angel
> AIM: AngelKyoto
> ICQ: 29713335

Yes. And that works, except it _relies_ on the over-damage rules. If you do
not use them, then the weapon can only get to D level damage.

The effects are the same, mind. 2 defender successes still reduces the
damage. You are just waiting to see how many of them the Defender gets,
before applying the _attacker's_ successes to reflect accuracy. This is
especially significant with a weapon like, say, the Barret 121 Sniper Rifle,
with it's (IIRC) 14D base damage level.

If you staged up, lost extra successes, then staged down, then it would not
matter how many successes you rolled when firing this moster; 1, 10, or 1,000
... after the first success, none would count, because you could _not_ stage
damage up. Yet the poor unlucky slob HIT by it, would be able to resist
damage down, normally.

That IS why I use the Over-Damage rule, regardless of power. I _do_ rule,
however, that no weapon may be staged up more than 5x, or 1/2 of the
attacker's skill (round up), net (whichever is _less_). So sure, you may
(miraculously) get 20 successes and stage that holdout pistol up 10 times.
The defender may get ZERO successes (bad dice that day maybe), but you will
only do a D+2. And that's a LOT for a tiny holdout, but it will not kill tha
average Body-3 human in one shot. Leave him bleeding RAPIDLY to death, yes.
But not kill him, simply because the round hasn't the power to DO that, IMO.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 25
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:03:23 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Patrick Goodman wrote:

> >Example: (stage up first)
> >Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes.
> >Damage stages up to 11D and stops.
>
> See, this is where I think you're going wrong. Isn't it in the rules that
> each pair of successes beyond Deadly stages the *POWER* of the of the attack
> up one? This would make the goon's assault rifle attack, with 8 successes,
> 14D instead of 11D.
>
> Or is that a house rule that I just liked so much that I adopted it a long
> time ago and thought it was official? (I hate wasting successes.)
>
Not in SR3. In SR3 firearms do not stage up. Someone earlier in the
discussion posted the page number.

> >Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
> >a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
> >Player takes no damage.
>
> How are you getting a TN of 3? Your examples never specified a specific
> armor type, but I'll go on as if it were heavy security armor from the table
> at the end of FIELDS OF FIRE (since that's the book I have closest to hand),
> which gives us 7/5. His target number is 7 instead of 3, which suddenly
> makes his assured success less assured. And his combat pool would be
> reduced for every point of armor above his Quickness, which would cut down
> on the number of dice he could roll to achieve those successes. He's gonna
> get hurt on this one, you ask me.
>
Yeah I didn't specific the armor type, it's full heavy 8/6.

The guy in the example is heavy cyber, all of them have more quickness
than ballistic armor, so that doesn't hold them back.

The damage code on the generic assault rifle used in the example is 8m,
which becomes 11S when burst fired. Factor in the 8 points of armor and
the target number is 3.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 26
From: Michael _ your_raven@*******.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:39:52 PST
According to the 3rd ed rules your goon shoots his gun for 11S then gets
8 successes. You then have the dodge and damage resistance tests and see
who has more successes left over. The goon does not upstage to D and
then stop. If the victim gets 7 successes between dodge and damage
resistance, the goon has one left and the damage is S. If the victim had
2, then the goon has 6 to the good and damage goes to D and then stops,
but of course the victim is dead, or at least bleeding to death.

For unarmed/melee combat it is different. First you resolve the attack
and counterattack dice rolls. For every 2 attack successes to the good
left over the damage upstages one letter up to D, and then any left over
batches of 2 successes up the power by one. Then the damage resistance
test is done.
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Message no. 27
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:32:35 -0600
:Chris Maxfield wrote
:
:> This is how things are handled in MELEE combat, in Sr2 + Sr3.
Damage
:>can't be staged past deadly (BTB basic rules, at least), so if you have
:>lots of armor and / or good body, melee isn't to risky. Note that
combat
:>pool can't normally be used in melee dmage resitance tests.
:
:In SR3, combat pool dice (if any are left) may be added to all melee
combat
:damage resistance tests, irrespective of whether full defence or
counter-attack
:options are used.
:


How do you figure that? The normal SR3 melee combat / damage
resistance procedure (still p. 122, as referenced in my original post)
does NOT mention ANY combat pool use for damage resistance.
Indeed, on full defense, you can't add combat pool to the combat test,
but you can "dodge", and you can use CP for damage resistance. But this
does not apply if you make a normal melee combat counter attack.

Mongoose
Message no. 28
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:40:54 -0500
Scott Wheelock wrote:
>
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Drew Curtis."
> ] Example: (compare successes first)
> ] Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes
> ] Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
> ] a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
> ] Player takes 11S damage.
> ]
> ] Example: (stage up first)
> ] Goon with an assault rifle burst fires for 11S and scores 8 successes.
> ] Damage stages up to 11D and stops.
> ] Player with 10 body, 7 combat pool, rolls 10 + 2 pool dice against
> ] a target number of 3. Average roll yields 8 successes.
> ] Player takes no damage.
>
> Thank you for proving my point :) When you have Deadly as the
> cap on damage, as your example did, then it matters what order you
> do it in. Kyoto's campaign had damage levels (or so I thought)
> beyond Deadly, therefore the order didn't matter.
>
> -Murder of One
Whoa there, your missing somwething here. It DOES matter wether or not
you stage before you compare damage:

Example 1 (compare before stage)

Guy A shoots Guy B and has 4 successes using a 9M pistol. Guy B resists
and gets 3 successes for his body test. 4-3= 1, not enough to change
the damage, so the defender takes an M wound.

Example 2 (stage before compare)

Guy A has 4 succeses, staging the 9M up to 9D (no upper limit here,
doesn't matter in this situation). Guy B has 3 succses, meaning he gets
to stage it down once, and he takes a S wound.

Staging and comarison order DOES matter in many circumstances. Sure,
it's only by one damage level, but when you're teetering on the edge of
consiousness every 3 boxes or so does tend to help.
--
Sanity is in the left pinky of the beholder
Message no. 29
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:20:08 -0600
Note: Computer problems prevented me from checking my email yesterday and
when I was sorting through the 130 or so messages today, I was a little
quick with the delete key. If I missed a post saying what I'm about to
say, my apologies.

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:08:44 -0500 Joshua Bell <joshbell@**********.com>
writes:
>At 04:07 PM 3/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Dodge wrote:
>>I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go above D
>>damage?

>p. 114 Sr3d 2nd column top. ...maximum of D damage.
>
>(not that I agree or disagree, just answering your question...)

Well, I think the reason for this is that overdamage was an optional rule
presented in FOF. I would guess that a similar optional rule will be
presented in the Cannon Companion.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 30
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:53:54 -0600
>>>I'm curious, where in SR3 dose it say that firearms can not go above D
>>>damage?
>
>>p. 114 Sr3d 2nd column top. ...maximum of D damage.
>>
>>(not that I agree or disagree, just answering your question...)
>
>Well, I think the reason for this is that overdamage was an optional rule
>presented in FOF. I would guess that a similar optional rule will be
>presented in the Cannon Companion.

That rule quoted above also applies to base damage of a called shot, not
maximum staging overall.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 31
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:13:04 +1100
At 04:32 12/03/99 -0600, Mongoose wrote:
> How do you figure that? The normal SR3 melee combat / damage
>resistance procedure (still p. 122, as referenced in my original post)
>does NOT mention ANY combat pool use for damage resistance.

Agreed that the summarized steps on page 122 do not mention combat pool dice
for damage resistance. However, on the next page (p123) where the standard
melee combat steps are explained more fully, the section "Damage Resistance
Test" says in the last sentence "Any remaining Combat Pool dice may be
used".

> Indeed, on full defense, you can't add combat pool to the combat test,
>but you can "dodge", and you can use CP for damage resistance. But this
>does not apply if you make a normal melee combat counter attack.

Agreed that combat pool dice are added to damage resistance tests in Full
Defence as explained on page 124. However, page 123 says it's done for standard
melee as well.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 32
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:57:41 +1100
At 06:20 12/03/99 -0600, dghost@****.com wrote:
>Well, I think the reason for this is that overdamage was an optional rule
>presented in FOF. I would guess that a similar optional rule will be
>presented in the Cannon Companion.
>

It's in SR3. See the section Deadlier Over-Damage on page 126.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 33
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:32:32 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to grahamdrew."
] Whoa there, your missing somwething here. It DOES matter wether or not
] you stage before you compare damage:
]
] Example 1 (compare before stage)
]
] Guy A shoots Guy B and has 4 successes using a 9M pistol. Guy B resists
] and gets 3 successes for his body test. 4-3= 1, not enough to change
] the damage, so the defender takes an M wound.
]
] Example 2 (stage before compare)
]
] Guy A has 4 succeses, staging the 9M up to 9D (no upper limit here,
] doesn't matter in this situation). Guy B has 3 succses, meaning he gets
] to stage it down once, and he takes a S wound.
]
] Staging and comarison order DOES matter in many circumstances. Sure,
] it's only by one damage level, but when you're teetering on the edge of
] consiousness every 3 boxes or so does tend to help.

Well golly. Good point, didn't think about it that way.

-Murder of One
Message no. 34
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: applying successes to combat: what order?
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:14:11 +0100
You wrote:

>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to grahamdrew."
>] Whoa there, your missing somwething here. It DOES matter wether or
not
>] you stage before you compare damage:
>]
>] Example 1 (compare before stage)
>]
>] Guy A shoots Guy B and has 4 successes using a 9M pistol. Guy B
resists
>] and gets 3 successes for his body test. 4-3= 1, not enough to change
>] the damage, so the defender takes an M wound.
>]
>] Example 2 (stage before compare)
>]
>] Guy A has 4 succeses, staging the 9M up to 9D (no upper limit here,
>] doesn't matter in this situation). Guy B has 3 succses, meaning he
gets
>] to stage it down once, and he takes a S wound.
>]
>] Staging and comarison order DOES matter in many circumstances. Sure,
>] it's only by one damage level, but when you're teetering on the edge
of
>] consiousness every 3 boxes or so does tend to help.

This is like a two edged sword, depending on which site you're on
preference will change. As a GM I usually apply example 1, which makes
it easier for the runners when fired upon.

Sven ;-)

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