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Message no. 1
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: A proposed variant Shadowrun magic system
Date: Sun, 2 May 1993 17:40:14 -0400
Let's talk about radical changes to the stock Shadowrun magic system
(I can't call it a reform by this point). I recently realized what
bothered me most about SR magic, and why it felt so wrong: all those
instant spells, aka the 'just like AD&D' phenomenon.

My cure is simple: delete normal magic. Entirely.
Ritual magic remains, as do spirits and elementals, although all
should be changed somewhat (note that all these are currently ideas,
and haven't been playtested).

Spirits are probably the least changed; I don't think they need any
big changes. You may want to make normal spirits a bit more powerful,
but probably not.

Elementals need to be fiddled a bit; you should probably cheapen
elemental summoning, at least for low-force elementals, and make it
faster. I can also see improvised elemental summonings, depending on
circumstances. A lot of this depends on how much you want hermetic
mages throwing their weight around; if you keep all the costs stock,
hermetics are going to be very cautious about when and where they
summon and use up elementals.

I'd delete watchers entirely, if you even play with them (I don't; I
consider them a loathsome invention designed expressly for munchkin
uses). If you want more active mages, feel free to keep them; I'd
consider some penalty for summoning them (besides having to put up
with the stupid things nattering at you). Maybe they should be
something only initiates can summon.

It's probably necessary to invent a 'fast' version of rituals; this
should definitely require materials and obvious happenings. My
personal inclination is to restrict it fairly heavily. For shamans I
would say that you can only do fast rituals with spells you would
normally get totem bonuses for (and you loose the bonus dice); for
hermetics, you should have to completely burn at least one elemental,
plus materials. You should probably take a +2 or more target modifier.

People should (under restricted situations) be able to buy spells as
'innate abilities', gifts from their magic; restrict this carefully
(perhaps enough of a restriction is that if you are gifted with a
spell, you can never cast it ritually, but I suspect more is needed).
Shamans should only be gifted from spells that they get bonuses on and
that are appropriate to the totem and character. Hermetics are more
difficult to handle; a hermetic who wants to be gifted should be
required to specialize somehow, either in field or elemental type or
both, and then be giftable only from spells covered by that. Perhaps
a reasonable further restriction is that you can only have your Magic
Rating in total force of gifts, but I'd have to play with this to test
it out.

Thoughts? Comments?

- cks
Message no. 2
From: Troy <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A proposed variant Shadowrun magic system
Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 01:51:34 +0100
On Sun, 2 May 1993, Chris Siebenmann wrote:

>
> Let's talk about radical changes to the stock Shadowrun magic system
> (I can't call it a reform by this point). I recently realized what
> bothered me most about SR magic, and why it felt so wrong: all those
> instant spells, aka the 'just like AD&D' phenomenon.

Sorry but I think you'll find it took a round to cast a spell in AD&D and
a round lasted 1 minute. Not very instant

> My cure is simple: delete normal magic. Entirely.
> Ritual magic remains, as do spirits and elementals, although all
> should be changed somewhat (note that all these are currently ideas,
> and haven't been playtested).

WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY. Mages will be great for roleplaying.

"Excuse me Mr Guard, do you mind if I take a DNA sample of you.
It's just that I want to kill you. I tried hitting you over the head with
my spell book, but that didn't do much." by the late BO-ZO R.I.P


> Spirits are probably the least changed; I don't think they need any
> big changes. You may want to make normal spirits a bit more powerful,
> but probably not.

Fair comment

> Elementals need to be fiddled a bit; you should probably cheapen
> elemental summoning, at least for low-force elementals, and make it
> faster. I can also see improvised elemental summonings, depending on
> circumstances. A lot of this depends on how much you want hermetic
> mages throwing their weight around; if you keep all the costs stock,
> hermetics are going to be very cautious about when and where they
> summon and use up elementals.

Could you define "Improvised elemental summoning". What do you mean?

> I'd delete watchers entirely, if you even play with them (I don't; I
> consider them a loathsome invention designed expressly for munchkin
> uses). If you want more active mages, feel free to keep them; I'd
> consider some penalty for summoning them (besides having to put up
> with the stupid things nattering at you). Maybe they should be
> something only initiates can summon.

WHAT!!!! Watchers are fun charcater. Actually I do play a slight variation
on the rules for watches.

In my games you alway summon the same watcher. The watcher has a
personality. This makes for fun Role Playing. Due to there nature watchers
are stupid. They follow commands to the letter, they don't take anything
for granted. Which means that they don't always do there job right. Using
my rules it allow the PC to have fun telling off the watcher...

"Look when I tell you to folloe somebody I expect you report back
to me O.K. **THWARP** Now you got that **Thwarp** **Thwarp** **Thwarp** no
this time etc..."


> It's probably necessary to invent a 'fast' version of rituals; this
> should definitely require materials and obvious happenings. My
> personal inclination is to restrict it fairly heavily. For shamans I
> would say that you can only do fast rituals with spells you would
> normally get totem bonuses for (and you loose the bonus dice); for
> hermetics, you should have to completely burn at least one elemental,
> plus materials. You should probably take a +2 or more target modifier.

Oh yes thats a good idea why don't we make rituals faster say so it takes
a couple of seconds. We might as well make it so as we don't require
materials. Hmmmm what should we can these fast rituals? I know we'll call
them....
SPELLS.

> People should (under restricted situations) be able to buy spells as
> 'innate abilities', gifts from their magic; restrict this carefully
> (perhaps enough of a restriction is that if you are gifted with a
> spell, you can never cast it ritually, but I suspect more is needed).
> Shamans should only be gifted from spells that they get bonuses on and
> that are appropriate to the totem and character. Hermetics are more
> difficult to handle; a hermetic who wants to be gifted should be
> required to specialize somehow, either in field or elemental type or
> both, and then be giftable only from spells covered by that. Perhaps
> a reasonable further restriction is that you can only have your Magic
> Rating in total force of gifts, but I'd have to play with this to test
> it out.

I have been thinking along simular line on this idea as well. My idea was
that starting character could start with the innate magic abillities if
they place there magic priority at c or d (1 or 2 SRI).

I would not allow character to develop these abilities after they have
started.

Just a minute. Lets see if I got this right, a street samuri could buy say
fireball as an ability.

So in your system mages can't cast spells but every other character can.

> Thoughts? Comments?
>
> - cks
Can you justify your changes please?

Any other comments?

_____ (!) Constipation means never having to give a SH*T
_ooO/_0 0_\Ooo__
|____|(_)_|____| If the world had piles they'd be in Wales.
|__|____|____|_|
|____|____|____| Troy Hoskion (t.hoskison@********.ac.uk)
|__|____|____|_| or (92230282@********.ac.uk)
Wot No bog roll
Message no. 3
From: Christina Johnson <johnson1@**.UWP.EDU>
Subject: Re: A proposed variant Shadowrun magic system
Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 09:25:52 -0500
On Mon, 3 May 1993, Troy wrote:

> Sorry but I think you'll find it took a round to cast a spell in AD&D and
> a round lasted 1 minute. Not very instant

Actually, I think you'll find that the majority of first level spells
require a segment, not a round, to cast. Segments are six seconds long.
Other spells vary, some being as long as a round, (One full minute) and
some taking even longer.

Six seconds is still not instantaneous, however, so your point is still
valid. As we all know, in Shadowrun, a fight can be long over in six
seconds. (Though I don't know that it would be all that valid to
translate DnD combat time into SR.)

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Christina M. Johnson, University of Wisconsin, Parkside
johnson1@**.uwp.edu
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Thwap!