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Message no. 1
From: Jeremy DeVore jmortir@*****.net
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:34:15 -0600
Last night I went and started to download Shadowrun Programs again for my
computer and I did get the latest copy of the Shop (I recently bought Rigger
2 :-). Now I have a few little questions which depending on the answers will
mean if I can use this program or not.

My computer is not what you would call a high tech thing, closer to a
dinosaur really. It has a 13" monitor 640X480 and cannot change screen
resolution. Well the Shop program doesn't exactly fit on my screen... If I
do a little tinkering I can get up to Specialized Checkbox at what I assume
to be the bottom. The question I have is there anything below that checkbox?
And if there is, is it necessary? Because if it is I cannot use the program.

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.shreve.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awwww screw it. BYE!"
Message no. 2
From: ArcLight arclight@**************.com
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:38:09 +0200
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org On Behalf Of Jeremy DeVore
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 10:34 PM
> To: ShadowRN
> Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
>
>
> Last night I went and started to download Shadowrun Programs again for my
> computer and I did get the latest copy of the Shop (I recently
> bought Rigger
> 2 :-). Now I have a few little questions which depending on the
> answers will
> mean if I can use this program or not.
>
> My computer is not what you would call a high tech thing, closer to a
> dinosaur really. It has a 13" monitor 640X480 and cannot change screen
> resolution. Well the Shop program doesn't exactly fit on my
> screen... If I
> do a little tinkering I can get up to Specialized Checkbox at
> what I assume
> to be the bottom. The question I have is there anything below
> that checkbox?
> And if there is, is it necessary? Because if it is I cannot use
> the program.

There are three more boxes under it, so I assume
you won't be able to use it properly...

arclight
Message no. 3
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:23:28 -0800
> My computer is not what you would call a high tech thing, closer to a
> dinosaur really. It has a 13" monitor 640X480 and cannot change screen
> resolution. Well the Shop program doesn't exactly fit on my
> screen... If I
> do a little tinkering I can get up to Specialized Checkbox at
> what I assume
> to be the bottom. The question I have is there anything below
> that checkbox?
> And if there is, is it necessary? Because if it is I cannot use
> the program.

Well, mine isn't a dinosaur (I've had it less than a year and it was top
of the line then) and I have the same problem with the program. Maybe
the program needs some tinkering to allow adjusting for screen size.
James?

*************************************************************************
********************
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Message no. 4
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:47:30 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Hunter."
] Well, mine isn't a dinosaur (I've had it less than a year and it was top
] of the line then) and I have the same problem with the program. Maybe
] the program needs some tinkering to allow adjusting for screen size.
] James?

Speaking of not being able to get this to work, I can't
download those "extra files" it says I need to run it.
The links are messed or something.

-Murder of One
Message no. 5
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:13:01 -0400
Sorry for taking so long, but work's been busy lately and I'm slowly
sifting through >1900 unread messages (yet still managed to vote on
the list T-shirt ;-) )...

Jeremy DeVore started off with:
> My computer is not what you would call a high tech thing, closer to a
> dinosaur really. It has a 13" monitor 640X480 and cannot change screen
>
Never heard of a 13" monitor - are you sure you don't mean 14"?

> resolution. Well the Shop program doesn't exactly fit on my screen... If I
> do a little tinkering I can get up to Specialized Checkbox at what I
> assume
> to be the bottom. The question I have is there anything below that
> checkbox?
> And if there is, is it necessary? Because if it is I cannot use the
> program.
>
Well, there are checkboxes for Unusual design, Luxury and Security
markups but the real problem would be accessing the list of current
modifications. The Shop was designed to be used at 800x600 at a
minimum - but all is not lost. You *can* actually scroll the window
around without the mouse - try hitting Alt, Space, M. Then scroll the
window around with the cursor keys; hit Enter to put the window down.
Yes, it's a pain in the butt, sorry.

Hunter followed up with:
Well, mine isn't a dinosaur (I've had it less than a year and it was
top
of the line then) and I have the same problem with the program. Maybe
the program needs some tinkering to allow adjusting for screen size.

If the machine was purchased since about 1992, you almost certainly
(and since 1988 if it was top of the line!) have the ability to run
at a higher resolution. In Windows 95, right click on the desktop
and choose "Properties". Click on the "Settings" tab. Just slide the
slider marked "Desktop area" further over - if it won't go any further
then you're not using the right video driver and you'll have to ask
somebody else for help.

As for tinkering with The Shop - I put a lot of tinkering into it
already to get the layout to 1) make sense and 2) be reasonably compact.
I'm tinkered out. The source code to the latest version is available
though, so if anybody wants to redesign it - go for it.

Scott Wheelock jumped in with:
Speaking of not being able to get this to work, I can't
download those "extra files" it says I need to run it.
The links are messed or something.

Huh. The links all work for me - you *are* going to:
http://ojaste.dhs.org/~ojastej/SR/Shop.html aren't you? Two of those
files are hosted locally and *those* at least should be fine; the
third ends up pointing to a variety of different sites of which *one*
should work.

If you still can't get them to work, you can just download the full
install at the bottom of the page (1.6M).

James Ojaste
Message no. 6
From: Jeremy DeVore jmortir@*****.net
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:23:00 -0500
> Never heard of a 13" monitor - are you sure you don't mean 14"?

Oooops I goofed it's got 13" viewable. And I got the monitor from an OLD AST
486 33mhz combo... I upgraded the computer but haven't gotten around to the
montor yet.

> Well, there are checkboxes for Unusual design, Luxury and Security
> markups but the real problem would be accessing the list of current
> modifications. The Shop was designed to be used at 800x600 at a
> minimum - but all is not lost. You *can* actually scroll the window
> around without the mouse - try hitting Alt, Space, M. Then scroll the
> window around with the cursor keys; hit Enter to put the window down.
> Yes, it's a pain in the butt, sorry.

Well as long as I can work it I have no complaints. I have to say it's the
best Vehicle Creation program I have seen. As long as I don't have to use
those checkboxes everything is cool. :-) Thank you so very much.

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.shreve.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awwww screw it. BYE!"
Message no. 7
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:08:53 -0400 (EDT)
"Jeremy DeVore" <jmortir@*****.net> writes:
> > Never heard of a 13" monitor - are you sure you don't mean 14"?
>
> Oooops I goofed it's got 13" viewable. And I got the monitor from an OLD AST
> 486 33mhz combo... I upgraded the computer but haven't gotten around to the
> montor yet.
>
> > Well, there are checkboxes for Unusual design, Luxury and Security
> > markups but the real problem would be accessing the list of current
> > modifications. The Shop was designed to be used at 800x600 at a
> > minimum - but all is not lost. You *can* actually scroll the window
> > around without the mouse - try hitting Alt, Space, M. Then scroll the
> > window around with the cursor keys; hit Enter to put the window down.
> > Yes, it's a pain in the butt, sorry.
>
> Well as long as I can work it I have no complaints. I have to say it's the
> best Vehicle Creation program I have seen. As long as I don't have to use
> those checkboxes everything is cool. :-) Thank you so very much.

Assuming that the monitor is the only problem, you could try
increasing the size of your desktop to 800x600 or more, while leaving
the resolution at 640x480. This should let you move around in the
entire window.

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 06:25:43 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Ojaste,James [NCR]."
] Huh. The links all work for me - you *are* going to:
] http://ojaste.dhs.org/~ojastej/SR/Shop.html aren't you? Two of those
] files are hosted locally and *those* at least should be fine; the
] third ends up pointing to a variety of different sites of which *one*
] should work.
]
] If you still can't get them to work, you can just download the full
] install at the bottom of the page (1.6M).

Ah...when I downloaded, the "full install" was the outdated
version. Cool, downloading it now...

-Murder of One

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
-Ralph Wiggum
Message no. 9
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:14:41 EDT
In a message dated 4/8/99 2:13:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

>
> Ah...when I downloaded, the "full install" was the outdated
> version. Cool, downloading it now...
>
> -Murder of One
>

It is, Mo1. What you do to work around that is you download the "full
install", then re-install the newest version over it. You wind up with the
MCV (most current version) of the shop that way plus the .dll's you need to
run it.

As to the screen issue, Ive discussed that one with James in the past, and I
for one never have been able to come up with a good solution to suggest to
him for correcting it. As to the interem suggestions, I would point out that
unless your monitor is VERY old it will probobly support the 800x600
resolution, even on an old 14. And if your monitor is less than 5 years old,
in general your limiting factors on screen resolution are the memeory on your
video card and how sharp your eyes are. Personally, I use a 15" model, and
while I could drive the resolution to 1024 or higher, I dont because
everthing gets to small for me to be able to manipulate things easily...
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:29:50 +0200
According to Starrngr@***.com, at 3:14 on 10 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> As to the screen issue, Ive discussed that one with James in the past, and I
> for one never have been able to come up with a good solution to suggest to
> him for correcting it.

One way to do it would be to add tabs to the program; this would require
an extra OCX and DLL on your system, though, but it does mean that the
overall window size can be made smaller and still have the same amount of
controls on the screen. The cost of this is that you need to switch
between tabs for some things (for example, add modifications on one tab
and go to another to see their effects on the vehicle's stats).

> As to the interem suggestions, I would point out that unless your
> monitor is VERY old it will probobly support the 800x600 resolution,
> even on an old 14. And if your monitor is less than 5 years old, in
> general your limiting factors on screen resolution are the memeory on
> your video card and how sharp your eyes are. Personally, I use a 15"
> model, and while I could drive the resolution to 1024 or higher, I dont
> because everthing gets to small for me to be able to manipulate things
> easily...

I'll add here that on my 1024x768, The Shop will only just fit on screen,
and every time I start it I have to drag it up a bit to get the whole
window on the screen.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone has a lie to live.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:03:32 -0600
At 12:29 4/10/99 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>According to Starrngr@***.com, at 3:14 on 10 Apr 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
>> As to the screen issue, Ive discussed that one with James in the past,
and I
>> for one never have been able to come up with a good solution to suggest to
>> him for correcting it.
>
>One way to do it would be to add tabs to the program; this would require
>an extra OCX and DLL on your system, though, but it does mean that the
>overall window size can be made smaller and still have the same amount of
>controls on the screen. The cost of this is that you need to switch
>between tabs for some things (for example, add modifications on one tab
>and go to another to see their effects on the vehicle's stats).

Poor mans way: Buttons, frames. Click a button, it brings the appropriate
frame up. The only thing is -- this is ugly with the standard windows
buttons, and tends to look cheap/unprofessional.

I'd give it a quick spin if I had some more time. I may do it anyways. <g>

-Adam

--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
<"You don't want me editing text.. that's why I married Sharon." -MM>
Message no. 12
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:50:39 -0400
Starrngr@***.com wrote:
> > Ah...when I downloaded, the "full install" was the outdated
> > version. Cool, downloading it now...
>
> It is, Mo1. What you do to work around that is you download the "full
> install", then re-install the newest version over it. You wind up with
> the
> MCV (most current version) of the shop that way plus the .dll's you need
> to
> run it.
>
Actually, the regular install and full install are in sync now. Both
are at v1.3.3 at the moment. It's a waste of space for the most part
(1.6M zipped to install 165k of app and data), but enough people needed
it that I finally got around to updating it. Of course, it helps that
I'm not making frequent changes to The Shop anymore... :-)

> As to the screen issue, Ive discussed that one with James in the past, and
> I
> for one never have been able to come up with a good solution to suggest to
>
> him for correcting it. As to the interem suggestions, I would point out
> that
> unless your monitor is VERY old it will probobly support the 800x600
> resolution, even on an old 14.
>
That's pretty much the reason I didn't freak out about it. I made
sure that it would fit in 800x600 (even though I never run at less
than 1024x768 myself, even on a 14") but that's about it.

James Ojaste
Message no. 13
From: Josh strago@***.com
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:03:33 -0400
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

> Starrngr@***.com wrote:
> > > Ah...when I downloaded, the "full install" was the outdated
> > > version. Cool, downloading it now...
> >
> > It is, Mo1. What you do to work around that is you download the "full
> > install", then re-install the newest version over it. You wind up with
> > the
> > MCV (most current version) of the shop that way plus the .dll's you need
> > to
> > run it.
> >
> Actually, the regular install and full install are in sync now. Both
> are at v1.3.3 at the moment. It's a waste of space for the most part
> (1.6M zipped to install 165k of app and data), but enough people needed
> it that I finally got around to updating it. Of course, it helps that
> I'm not making frequent changes to The Shop anymore... :-)
>
> > As to the screen issue, Ive discussed that one with James in the past, and
> > I
> > for one never have been able to come up with a good solution to suggest to
> >
> > him for correcting it. As to the interem suggestions, I would point out
> > that
> > unless your monitor is VERY old it will probobly support the 800x600
> > resolution, even on an old 14.
> >
> That's pretty much the reason I didn't freak out about it. I made
> sure that it would fit in 800x600 (even though I never run at less
> than 1024x768 myself, even on a 14") but that's about it.
>
> James Ojaste

I'm sorry, I haven't been following this thread, so it might have already been
answered. Where do I go to get the Shop Program?
Message no. 14
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:02:17 -0400
Gurth wrote:
> > As to the screen issue, Ive discussed that one with James in the past,
> and I
> > for one never have been able to come up with a good solution to suggest
> to
> > him for correcting it.
>
> One way to do it would be to add tabs to the program; this would require
> an extra OCX and DLL on your system, though, but it does mean that the
> overall window size can be made smaller and still have the same amount of
> controls on the screen. The cost of this is that you need to switch
> between tabs for some things (for example, add modifications on one tab
> and go to another to see their effects on the vehicle's stats).
>
ICK! *DON'T* talk to me about that *@#$& OCX! It has caused me more
headaches over the years... I used it in an app we deployed here at
work - you wouldn't believe the pain it caused. *shudder*

Sorry. I won't lose control again. I promise. Really.

The problem with using (or faking) tabs is that you really want to
be able to *see* what effect a given mod/engine/whatever choice has
on the stats. So either I'd have to build intelligence into The Shop
to recognize changed stats and format and display those, or the user
has to click all over the place. Not good.

A slightly better option is to have the controls in one window and the
stats in another. I think it'd be less convenient for everybody else,
though, and I'd probably have to rework some architecture.

> > As to the interem suggestions, I would point out that unless your
> > monitor is VERY old it will probobly support the 800x600 resolution,
> > even on an old 14. And if your monitor is less than 5 years old, in
> > general your limiting factors on screen resolution are the memeory on
> > your video card and how sharp your eyes are. Personally, I use a 15"
> > model, and while I could drive the resolution to 1024 or higher, I dont
> > because everthing gets to small for me to be able to manipulate things
> > easily...
>
> I'll add here that on my 1024x768, The Shop will only just fit on screen,
> and every time I start it I have to drag it up a bit to get the whole
> window on the screen.
>
You're using Large Fonts, aren't you? I promised not to lose control
again, so I'll just say: they're evil. The problem stems from the
fact that fonts are measured in points and other stuff (boxes, lines,
buttons) are measured in pixels. As pixels have absolutely no
relationship to points, you either assume a standard and stick to it
or provide a way to calculate it yourself. Guess which MS did? That's
right, both (exclusively). :-(

James Ojaste
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A Question About The Shop Program
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:58:17 +0200
According to Ojaste,James [NCR], at 14:02 on 12 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

[tab control]
> ICK! *DON'T* talk to me about that *@#$& OCX! It has caused me more
> headaches over the years... I used it in an app we deployed here at
> work - you wouldn't believe the pain it caused. *shudder*

I'm not talking about any OCX in particular, there are a number that do
tab controls. I myself have never had any real problems with MS' Common
Controls OCX, except for occasionally crashing the program I'm working on,
which can be damn annoying.

> The problem with using (or faking) tabs is that you really want to
> be able to *see* what effect a given mod/engine/whatever choice has
> on the stats. So either I'd have to build intelligence into The Shop
> to recognize changed stats and format and display those, or the user
> has to click all over the place. Not good.

That's true. However, a way to do it could be to have the stats displayed
permanently in an area outside the tab control, and put in three tabs: one
with the engine/chassis lists, one for the modifications, and one with the
rest (like the check boxes at the bottom of the window). This way you
could reduce the window size by about a quarter by removing the lower
part.

> A slightly better option is to have the controls in one window and the
> stats in another. I think it'd be less convenient for everybody else,
> though, and I'd probably have to rework some architecture.

If the current window doesn't fit on your screen very well, then a
separate window would probably make it worse, IMHO.

> > I'll add here that on my 1024x768, The Shop will only just fit on screen,
> > and every time I start it I have to drag it up a bit to get the whole
> > window on the screen.
> >
> You're using Large Fonts, aren't you?

125%, yes. Normal-sized fonts are hard to read on my *uses ruler* roughly
33 cm (erm, 13 inch) monitor but I find that icons etc. are too big in
800x600.

> I promised not to lose control again, so I'll just say: they're evil.
> The problem stems from the fact that fonts are measured in points and
> other stuff (boxes, lines, buttons) are measured in pixels. As pixels
> have absolutely no relationship to points, you either assume a standard
> and stick to it or provide a way to calculate it yourself. Guess which
> MS did? That's right, both (exclusively). :-(

I never did understand the whole mess they made of Windows' measurements
system. I mean, what the hell _is_ a twip, and why is it handier than
simply measuring in pixels?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
History's what you make it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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