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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:25:46 EDT
Jett, I am warning you ahead of time, all of the following is most definitely
IMO, and most likely colored by such :P

In a message dated 5/10/98 1:19:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
grota@*********.COM writes:

> * Jett hides from incoming thwaps once people read this message and then
> look at the subject again * Okay, here's a question for you.
>
> A team of PCs, but some miracle, killed an Eastern Dragon when the
> rigger crashed their transport plane into its head. The PCs proceeded to
> loot the corpse, taking blood, claws, etc from the corpse.
> Okay, so the question is this. Several PCs managed to get a hold of a
> bunch of scales. If you were to make a plated vest out of the scales,
> what would its rating be? I checked the critter table, and according to
> that, Eastern Dragons have a composite natural armor of 8. So would a
> vest made from said critter's scales be 8/8? Or less?

Okay, that method of attack isn't necessarily a miracle, just -VERY- extreme.
Yeah yeah, I know, a dragon requires extreme measures. I am just surprised
that the dragon didn't hear it coming or something.

Anyway, onto the looting....

As far as removing the body parts/appendiges from the overall corpse for use.
The standard "attribute ratings" for said dracoform, including the armor, are
not necessarily going to be usable. Without someone who knows how to remove
said material properly, I doubt seriously that anyone is going to be able to
gain the -full- benefits of said armor.

Also, as Nexx pointed out in his posting concerning the "Chunk Tosser" thing,
once it leaves the living body, its' aura is going to begin to deteriorate. I
bring this up, because, again IMO, part of the armoring power of a dracoform
comes from it's extremely complex (ie; Magical) nature. Granted, not all of
it, but a portion of it. And that may/may not effect the overall integrity of
"the Hide".

All determinable by the GM of course. ;)

On a slightly OT note from your posting, please remember that this is NOT AD&D
or any similar "purely magical" universe. This SR Universe has dracoforms
that may have other options to pursue.

For example. Did you and your friends realize that this critter is sentient,
and in SR's Universe, Sentient beings, especially those that have a SIN (as
long as it defeats the attempts to determine it's legality, it works) have
rights and killing such is considered an act of Murder???

That's right, you read me correctly. Murder. And certain other dracoforms
may or may not consider themselves "family" and decide to press charges,
obtain others to be arrested etcera.... Yes, this happened to some characters
once a LONG time ago in the games. I did it to prove a point. No matter
-WHAT- material I used, it was SHADOWRUN ... NOT AD&D/Middle Earth/etcera....

Back to your question though ... what exactly did they use to remove the hide
also? dikote circular saws? IF the armor value of the hide does not
deteriorate, that's stuff HARDENED, and simply hacking at it with a sword or
an axe in the hands of a troll is NOT going to work.

Additionally, if the dragon died via Plane Crash (to it's Skull no less :), I
doubt that any teeth are going to usable, let alone the tongue or brain.
Also, jarring may have ripped the region around the neck, rendering that hide
material unusable. The wings can be fragile (the membranes at least), and may
have torn, also they are not necessarily as durable as the remainder of the
body, and are not likely usable for "armor material" after your conflict.

The rest of the body, who knows.

Back to the legality and reputation problems ... if you will.

Any other dragon that sees material made from this is going to be a VERY bad
thing. Oh sure, Metahumans may think it's cool. But what about dragons and
their allies? Let's see, we no longer have the Big D, but that means didly.
Lofwyr, Arleesh, Hestaby, and Masaru are all major players in the Shadow
Markets. And their list of contacts are IMMENSE to say the least.

IMO (coming from actions I've had to do while Binder and Shiv over the years
now) is turn the body over to the appropriate authorities and contact the
nearest Great Dracoform. Be prepared with statements for the GD as to how the
fight happened and what occurred. Make certain you know your motives are not
going to get you killed as a retaliatory strike (most of the GD's are powerful
and emotional, but they are also sentient and may very readily understand).
Another option may be to contact the Draco Foundation, as they would probably
offer some kind of reward for a "more respectful disposal" of the body in
question. Not as cool as wearing "Dragon Hide Security Armor" I'll grant you,
but it could work out better in the long run.

In short, the armor may or may not work, but there are LOTS of other options
that are a HELL of a lot cooler for the role-playing aspects...

-K
Message no. 2
From: Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:14:20 -0400
Ereskanti wrote:


<snipsnip>
>
> For example. Did you and your friends realize that this critter is sentient,
> and in SR's Universe, Sentient beings, especially those that have a SIN (as
> long as it defeats the attempts to determine it's legality, it works) have
> rights and killing such is considered an act of Murder???



Whew. Okay. Well the dragon attacked the PCs first, so I think this
would be self defense. Plus, at the time that the PCs came upon the
dragon, it was eating people. I think that justifies killing it with no
problems. The dragon saw it coming, we just had a damn good (and
extremely crazy) rigger. No one expected him to try ramming the dragon,
least of all those of us in the plane.

> Back to your question though ... what exactly did they use to remove the hide
> also? dikote circular saws? IF the armor value of the hide does not
> deteriorate, that's stuff HARDENED, and simply hacking at it with a sword or
> an axe in the hands of a troll is NOT going to work.

The standard way to remove dragon scales! Slip a dikote knife under the
scales and pry until the flesh underneath gives. I agree, once the
dragon is dead, the magical armor goes away, much to my dismay.


>
> Additionally, if the dragon died via Plane Crash (to it's Skull no less :), I
> doubt that any teeth are going to usable, let alone the tongue or brain.
> Also, jarring may have ripped the region around the neck, rendering that hide
> material unusable. The wings can be fragile (the membranes at least), and may
> have torn, also they are not necessarily as durable as the remainder of the
> body, and are not likely usable for "armor material" after your conflict.

Claws and some of the scales, along with a few bottles of blood, were
what we managed to save.
Of course, I also have reason to believe that the fact we made out like
bandits is ill-fated, and our GM is considering crashing our plane into
the ocean next session. So who knows, maybe the point is moot after all?


>
> Back to the legality and reputation problems ... if you will.
>
> Any other dragon that sees material made from this is going to be a VERY bad
> thing. Oh sure, Metahumans may think it's cool. But what about dragons and
> their allies? Let's see, we no longer have the Big D, but that means didly.
> Lofwyr, Arleesh, Hestaby, and Masaru are all major players in the Shadow
> Markets. And their list of contacts are IMMENSE to say the least.



That's why I think a dragon scale vest would best be concealed, perhaps
painted/coated/etc to disguise it. And NOT worn to afternoon tea with
Hestaby. :>


> In short, the armor may or may not work, but there are LOTS of other options
> that are a HELL of a lot cooler for the role-playing aspects...
>
> -K

Ah, well. I just had to try it. Anyway, can you imagine a bunch of
greedy little capitalist runners NOT trying to turn a profit from a
great stroke of luck? :) Something tempting about the idea of an 8/8
armored vest...ah, well. :P

--Jett
Message no. 3
From: Phil Levis <pal@**.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:54:06 -0400
On Sun, 10 May 1998, Jessica Grota wrote:

> Ereskanti wrote:
> > For example. Did you and your friends realize that this critter is sentient,
> > and in SR's Universe, Sentient beings, especially those that have a SIN (as
> > long as it defeats the attempts to determine it's legality, it works) have
> > rights and killing such is considered an act of Murder???
>
> Whew. Okay. Well the dragon attacked the PCs first, so I think this
> would be self defense. Plus, at the time that the PCs came upon the
> dragon, it was eating people. I think that justifies killing it with no
> problems. The dragon saw it coming, we just had a damn good (and
> extremely crazy) rigger. No one expected him to try ramming the dragon,
> least of all those of us in the plane.
>
> > Back to your question though ... what exactly did they use to remove the hide
> > also? dikote circular saws? IF the armor value of the hide does not
> > deteriorate, that's stuff HARDENED, and simply hacking at it with a sword or
> > an axe in the hands of a troll is NOT going to work.
>
> The standard way to remove dragon scales! Slip a dikote knife under the
> scales and pry until the flesh underneath gives. I agree, once the
> dragon is dead, the magical armor goes away, much to my dismay.

All right... let's have another reality check here; in the case described,
it certainly sounds as if the group of runners can assume a degree of
legal protection due to the dragon's actions. However, the fact that the
dragon was in the midst of a killing spree does not mean that mutilating
and stealing parts of the body would be legal, in any way, shape, or form.

If this dragon was killing people, one can assume that there were a lot of
witnesses, especially if a vehicle crashed into the bugger's head. I would
think that a good deal of them might notice blood and scales being
collected. Indeed, I doubt that the coroner would miss a patch of scales
that had been torn off.

I doubt that dragons, as a whole or individually, would do much to a group
of people that killed a dragon in the middle of a killing spree. However,
I think that they would take offense at the raiding and mutilation of the
body afterwards... one can liken it to someone killing a trespasser in
'self-defense', then cutting off the perpetrator's ears as some sort of
trophy. Neither the law nor the family of the deceased would look very
kindly upon the matter.

But that's just my take on the matter; I've never liked the 'kill the
thing and get the loot' paradigm, anyways.

Phil
Message no. 4
From: Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:23:22 -0400
Phil Levis wrote:
>
> On Sun, 10 May 1998, Jessica Grota wrote:
>
> > Ereskanti wrote:
> > > For example. Did you and your friends realize that this critter is
sentient,
> > > and in SR's Universe, Sentient beings, especially those that have a SIN (as
> > > long as it defeats the attempts to determine it's legality, it works) have
> > > rights and killing such is considered an act of Murder???
> >
> > Whew. Okay. Well the dragon attacked the PCs first, so I think this
> > would be self defense. Plus, at the time that the PCs came upon the
> > dragon, it was eating people. I think that justifies killing it with no
> > problems. The dragon saw it coming, we just had a damn good (and
> > extremely crazy) rigger. No one expected him to try ramming the dragon,
> > least of all those of us in the plane.
> >
> > > Back to your question though ... what exactly did they use to remove the
hide
> > > also? dikote circular saws? IF the armor value of the hide does not
> > > deteriorate, that's stuff HARDENED, and simply hacking at it with a sword
or
> > > an axe in the hands of a troll is NOT going to work.
> >
> > The standard way to remove dragon scales! Slip a dikote knife under the
> > scales and pry until the flesh underneath gives. I agree, once the
> > dragon is dead, the magical armor goes away, much to my dismay.
>
> All right... let's have another reality check here; in the case described,
> it certainly sounds as if the group of runners can assume a degree of
> legal protection due to the dragon's actions. However, the fact that the
> dragon was in the midst of a killing spree does not mean that mutilating
> and stealing parts of the body would be legal, in any way, shape, or form.
>
> If this dragon was killing people, one can assume that there were a lot of
> witnesses, especially if a vehicle crashed into the bugger's head. I would
> think that a good deal of them might notice blood and scales being
> collected.


The witnesses were pretty happy that the dragon was killed, actually. It
had been eating them for several weeks now. The dragon was also a rival
of the local Yakuza Oyabun. Still, I think I'm just gonna let the
subject lie...anyway, the chances of losing the loot in a plane wreck
are looking better and better.

--Jett
Message no. 5
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 03:51:15 -0500
>For example. Did you and your friends realize that this critter is sentient,
>and in SR's Universe, Sentient beings, especially those that have a SIN (as
>long as it defeats the attempts to determine it's legality, it works) have
>rights and killing such is considered an act of Murder???

We where coming in for a landing at the plantation of a Yak oyuban in
Hawaii. When we arrived at the airstrip the dragon was busily munching the
Yak guards. The big bugger started attacking the plane. After dodging 3
attacks or so, we got to the point where we had to get the thing off the
airstrip or we where out of fuel and dead. Didnt have any guns mounted on
the plane, so our only option was to ram it. The plane was big, heavy, and
armored. The dragons skull was less big, heavy, and armored. We got lucky.
The dice roll to ram the thing was VERY much above average. IIRC one of the
dice rolled came up a 25.

As for murdering the dragon, it was busy eating people in the middle of our
airstrip, then attacked without provocation. We didnt have the fuel to run,
so we did the only thing we could. And it worked.

>Any other dragon that sees material made from this is going to be a VERY bad
>thing. Oh sure, Metahumans may think it's cool. But what about dragons and
>their allies? Let's see, we no longer have the Big D, but that means didly.
>Lofwyr, Arleesh, Hestaby, and Masaru are all major players in the Shadow
>Markets. And their list of contacts are IMMENSE to say the least.

Thats exactly what we are worried about. Fortunately the base was secluded
so the only witnesses are the Yakuza guards (who will keep their mouths
shut by order of the oyuban). The body was burned after we where given dibs
on anything we wanted from it. I think we figured that the thing did so
much damage to the plane the least we could do was take enough of it to
sell for repairs. FWIW, I dont think it was a greater dragon. "Only" a
lesser. ;)

I guess the rigger can paint a dragon silhouette on the side of his plane
now.

Take care...

-Teeg
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:06:41 +0100
Phil Levis said on 20:54/10 May 98...

> But that's just my take on the matter; I've never liked the 'kill the
> thing and get the loot' paradigm, anyways.

You can discourage it by paying the PCs a lot less than what the loot is
actually worth, according to the fencing guidelines. Not too long ago, one
of the PCs in my game had killed a few gangers trying to break into her
RV, and wanted to sell them to a street doc; I added up the costs of body
parts (as per SRII), multiplied by 30%, and lowered the price still more.

Had I let the street doc pay "full price," I'm pretty sure the players
would have tried to sell everyone they killed to a street doc, which I
don't particularly like them doing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:17:50 +0000
> > But that's just my take on the matter; I've never liked the 'kill the
> > thing and get the loot' paradigm, anyways.
>
> You can discourage it by paying the PCs a lot less than what the loot is
> actually worth, according to the fencing guidelines. Not too long ago, one
> of the PCs in my game had killed a few gangers trying to break into her
> RV, and wanted to sell them to a street doc; I added up the costs of body
> parts (as per SRII), multiplied by 30%, and lowered the price still more.
>
> Had I let the street doc pay "full price," I'm pretty sure the players
> would have tried to sell everyone they killed to a street doc, which I
> don't particularly like them doing.

I'd think most street docs don't want a warehouse full of body parts.
Most would have serious compatibility problems, easily
justifying a very low price.

Organ thieves would usually work on a 'commissioned' basis.
'I need an arm, a lung and a few kidneys, guys. Blood type X,
non-resistant to dna code Y, black orc.'
'Okay'.

That would catch the 30%.

That would also make organlegging a far step out of line for most
players - you don't just off people that attack you and then sell
them, which is somewhat morally excusable, but actively search out
people to off. (And with a strict time limit, too... no 'keeping a
list of wanted organs, just in case'.).

It also explains why organlegging is *really* unpopular.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:37:50 EDT
In a message dated 5/10/98 7:10:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
grota@*********.COM writes:

> That's why I think a dragon scale vest would best be concealed, perhaps
> painted/coated/etc to disguise it. And NOT worn to afternoon tea with
> Hestaby. :>

(Hestaby) "Would you like some sugar or arse...spice with your cup, and one
lump or two???"

(Runner with hidden vest) " ;k "


> Ah, well. I just had to try it. Anyway, can you imagine a bunch of
> greedy little capitalist runners NOT trying to turn a profit from a
> great stroke of luck? :) Something tempting about the idea of an 8/8
> armored vest...ah, well. :P
> --Jett

And no harm in the trying, hey, an idea, maybe you could have saved some
chunks of dragon flesh and used 'em for that up-and-coming "Chunk Launcher"
implant... ;)

-K
Message no. 9
From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:03:40 -0500
On Sun, 10 May 1998, Ereskanti wrote:

> In short, the armor may or may not work, but there are LOTS of other options
> that are a HELL of a lot cooler for the role-playing aspects...
>

I don't know... If your team's got it (and is _reeeeeeally stupid), flaunt
it--as they say. Imagine walking up to a prospective employer with your
100% genuine no-frills DracoCoat (TM) suit. "Yup, that was me, yupyup.
Took down ten with one blow--kid ya not. Yup, I'm tough, yupyup."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... I hear 'NPC'! Does anybody else hear 'NPC'?
Jonathan Andrews
Message no. 10
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:26:05 -0500
On 11 May 98 at 10:03, Jonathan Andrews wrote:

> I don't know... If your team's got it (and is _reeeeeeally stupid),
> flaunt it--as they say. Imagine walking up to a prospective employer
> with your 100% genuine no-frills DracoCoat (TM) suit. "Yup, that was
> me, yupyup. Took down ten with one blow--kid ya not. Yup, I'm tough,
> yupyup."

That could go against you as well. Think of the prestige a group of
gangers could get by killing that guy that killed that dragon, and
taking his coat. In short, if you take the bragging route, stay out
of alleys, and watch your back. :)

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 11
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:45:25 GMT
Andrews wrote:
> I don't know... If your team's got it (and is _reeeeeeally stupid),
> flaunt it--as they say. Imagine walking up to a prospective employer
> with your 100% genuine no-frills DracoCoat (TM) suit. "Yup, that was
> me, yupyup. Took down ten with one blow--kid ya not. Yup, I'm tough,
> yupyup."

I think that it wouldn't take long before that team was hired (unknown)
by Saeder Krupp to do something.. a real milk run, of course. At least by
the looks of it.. time for poetic justice, possibly. 'Ah, diz iz ze new spaare
partz arriving, yess?' 'What, no, we were just here to deliver a message!'
... the image fades to black, then a demonstration video of Jett's
'chunk launcher' MKII at full auto... with some rather gruesome noises not
quite filtered out.

I also think that's what Andrews was hinting at, but hey, irony means
'kinda like iron', right?

--

ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:21:43 -0400
Once upon a time, Jessica Grota wrote;

>The witnesses were pretty happy that the dragon was killed, actually. It
>had been eating them for several weeks now. The dragon was also a rival
>of the local Yakuza Oyabun. Still, I think I'm just gonna let the
>subject lie...anyway, the chances of losing the loot in a plane wreck
>are looking better and better.

Why oh why would you ever let players get off that scott free? Let
me tell you about what happened to us in the old New Orleans campaign
(which I wish would be run again). The GM did state he was taking some
liberties with Shadowrun to keep us on our toes (with 2 GM's in the group
with all the books you have to do these things). Whilst in the sewers
hunting down a mysterious Penkash we encountered his lair of rat beings
and killed him natch. A quick assensing of him and his wand showed they
had the same aura. After noting how interesting we pawned it off on a
players talismonger. Later when the wand (the real Penkash) possessed the
talismonger and Penkash came back stronger than before did we realize our
folly. Waif did look at him when we finally found out what had happened
and stated "we sold you once and we can do it again!" At least we made a
lot of nuyen from that sale.
Then there was that chemical factory worker whose car we stole and
inadvertently killed his wife. That pushed him over the edge and he
became a toxic shaman who hounded us for some time.
What comes around goes around.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:10:35 +0100
Fade said on 14:17/11 May 98...

> I'd think most street docs don't want a warehouse full of body parts.
> Most would have serious compatibility problems, easily
> justifying a very low price.

Good point, I can use that as an excuse next time somebody tries to sell a
dead body to a street doc and he/she doesn't want it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:16:06 -0700
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
> Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 12:10 PM
>
> Fade said on 14:17/11 May 98...
>
> > I'd think most street docs don't want a warehouse full of body parts.
> > Most would have serious compatibility problems, easily
> > justifying a very low price.
>
> Good point, I can use that as an excuse next time somebody tries to sell
a
> dead body to a street doc and he/she doesn't want it...
>

I think that's totally warrantable. Are there rules in Cyberpirates about
that? I know in the fluff section they have stuff about markets and
buyers, but I haven't dug my way through to the rules yet.
Message no. 15
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: A question of Grand Scale (up front answers)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:19:20 -0500
--------
> From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>

> I don't know... If your team's got it (and is _reeeeeeally stupid),
flaunt
> it--as they say. Imagine walking up to a prospective employer with your
> 100% genuine no-frills DracoCoat (TM) suit. "Yup, that was me, yupyup.
> Took down ten with one blow--kid ya not. Yup, I'm tough, yupyup."
>
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... I hear 'NPC'! Does anybody else hear 'NPC'?

You hear NPC, I hear "cautionary example whispered about to prove the
stupidity of (meta)humanity."

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka Ellegon
ICQ 8108180 AIM: Nexx3
King Kong Died for your sins
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Thwap!