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Message no. 1
From: korishinzo@*******.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:38:43 +0000
>From: JS Bracher

>At 09:19 AM 9/19/2002 -0700, b d wrote:

> > > Well, the Archology book has some impossibilities.
> > > What would it be in
> > > a real building built today?
> > > --Anders

> >18-20 inches maybe? I am not an archetecht by anymeans
> >but i am pretty sure they have drop down celiengs
> >where you can get at the stuff and probably have
> >advanced piping, electrical conduit that doubles as
> >data lines, etc. that would work. Tough to say, but
> >2cm is an impossibility...

>Based on what I've seen, it can be as much as 3'. And the ceilings are
>sometimes 10' or more to begin with.

A single story of a modern skyscraper is somwhere in the vacinity of 14 feet
in height. This usually includes a nine foot clearance, plus space for the
ducting, wiring, plumbing, and joists (steel I-beams gang, not 2x6
construction lumber). The Arcology might be able to get away with a
slightly less hefty steel endoskeleton, as the pyramid design removes some
of the lateral stability issues a skyscraper typically faces. However, the
Arc has a great deal of weight to deal with, with all those stacked floors.
I would say a minimum height of 4 meters per story, which fits with the
other SR game mechanics nicely. (Read: falling rules) That gives us 13
feet to play with, 9 for head room, and 4 for utility purposes. Now, the
mall is another issue. I have yet to be in a mall with only 9 feet of
clearance. I would count each floor of the mall as double floors (so 8
meters/26 feet). And I would imagine that there are some areas with
openings that run the entire height of the mall area. In any case, just
divide the Arc's height by 4, and that should give you a realistic number of
stories.

Korishinzo

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Message no. 2
From: bd_92@*****.com (b d)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 06:12:17 -0700 (PDT)
I wonder if there is an online guide of the floor
makeup to better facilitate this discussion. I could
just type it up and post it...i hope someone already
did!


don't forget the zoo the rollar coaster, etc. Also the
monorail and the rest of the places..this place is one
big orwellian nightmare! Gota love it!
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*******.com> wrote:
> >From: JS Bracher
>
> >At 09:19 AM 9/19/2002 -0700, b d wrote:
>
> > > > Well, the Archology book has some
> impossibilities.
> > > > What would it be in
> > > > a real building built today?
> > > > --Anders
>
> > >18-20 inches maybe? I am not an archetecht by
> anymeans
> > >but i am pretty sure they have drop down celiengs
> > >where you can get at the stuff and probably have
> > >advanced piping, electrical conduit that doubles
> as
> > >data lines, etc. that would work. Tough to say,
> but
> > >2cm is an impossibility...
>
> >Based on what I've seen, it can be as much as 3'.
> And the ceilings are
> >sometimes 10' or more to begin with.
>
> A single story of a modern skyscraper is somwhere in
> the vacinity of 14 feet
> in height. This usually includes a nine foot
> clearance, plus space for the
> ducting, wiring, plumbing, and joists (steel I-beams
> gang, not 2x6
> construction lumber). The Arcology might be able to
> get away with a
> slightly less hefty steel endoskeleton, as the
> pyramid design removes some
> of the lateral stability issues a skyscraper
> typically faces. However, the
> Arc has a great deal of weight to deal with, with
> all those stacked floors.
> I would say a minimum height of 4 meters per story,
> which fits with the
> other SR game mechanics nicely. (Read: falling
> rules) That gives us 13
> feet to play with, 9 for head room, and 4 for
> utility purposes. Now, the
> mall is another issue. I have yet to be in a mall
> with only 9 feet of
> clearance. I would count each floor of the mall as
> double floors (so 8
> meters/26 feet). And I would imagine that there are
> some areas with
> openings that run the entire height of the mall
> area. In any case, just
> divide the Arc's height by 4, and that should give
> you a realistic number of
> stories.
>
> Korishinzo
>
>
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> your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>


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Message no. 3
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:37:04 +0000
>From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*******.com>
<Snip>
>In any case, just divide the Arc's height by 4, and that should give you a
>realistic number of stories.

Or multiple the listed number of storeys to get the height, I think you'd
need to add a couple to cover the extra height in the mall...etc and bear in
mind that IIRC the first basement is actually above ground level on the
sound side, IIRC(again) it holds the loading docks and things.

You're also going to want to add two additional storeys where there are
helipads, one for structural bracing and one to increase the clearance,
after all the impression given is that the arc can be totally sealed so
choppers would have to be able to fit inside. Same goes for the roof,
although with only one maybe one and a half extra storeys, the weight of
choppers is less of an issue here than the weight of rain water...

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Message no. 4
From: bd_92@*****.com (b d)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 06:48:27 -0700 (PDT)
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle2061@*******.com> wrote:
> >From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*******.com>
> <Snip>
> >In any case, just divide the Arc's height by 4, and
> that should give you a
> >realistic number of stories.
>
> Or multiple the listed number of storeys to get the
> height, I think you'd
> need to add a couple to cover the extra height in
> the mall...etc and bear in
> mind that IIRC the first basement is actually above
> ground level on the
> sound side, IIRC(again) it holds the loading docks
> and things.
>
> You're also going to want to add two additional
> storeys where there are
> helipads, one for structural bracing and one to
> increase the clearance,
> after all the impression given is that the arc can
> be totally sealed so
> choppers would have to be able to fit inside. Same
> goes for the roof,
> although with only one maybe one and a half extra
> storeys, the weight of
> choppers is less of an issue here than the weight of
> rain water...
>


Well if it's meant to be TOTALLY sealed the choppers
are a liability and wouldn't be stored, they would be
tossed as uneccessary weight. I HIGHLY doubt if they
were to seal themselves in they would ever want to use
the choppers for anything.

Also remember the inside is made up of a maze like
structure designed to maximize fire and cover
protection for the defenders so almost everything is
reinforced to hell and beyond...they spent billions of
nuyen on this join and wanted to make it as secure as
fort knox..only made in japan ;)

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Message no. 5
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:15:59 -0400
>From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>

>You're also going to want to add two additional storeys where there are
>helipads, one for structural bracing and one to increase the clearance,
>after all the impression given is that the arc can be totally sealed so
>choppers would have to be able to fit inside. Same goes for the roof,
>although with only one maybe one and a half extra storeys, the weight of
>choppers is less of an issue here than the weight of rain water...

If they believe they may be assualted - say by the Aztec pyramid in a
barrage of missiles, they would want to be able to enclose and protect all
flying vehicles. That way they could be used for evac/counterattack right
after.

I would also think they would want to be able to analyze incoming air/water
as resources, and if they are not too nasty to filter send it through a
filtration column and into the building, otherwise vent it back out,
preferably in a way that carries other waste from the building.

Of course if the waste pipes get clogged send the trolls - far too dangerous
for expensive drones to be risked :)

To prepare for an extended period of enclosure (which I doubt was the plan)
they would have to have septic tanks, like at least a floor's worth. Anyone
have a favorite floor? heh, could make a run out of that - recover the magic
ring - oh, it was last seen falling down a garbage disposal and should be on
floor XXY...

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Message no. 6
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:39:23 -0600
At 12:38 PM 9/20/2002 +0000, Ice Heart wrote:

>A single story of a modern skyscraper is somwhere in the vacinity of 14
>feet in height. This usually includes a nine foot clearance, plus space
>for the ducting, wiring, plumbing, and joists (steel I-beams gang, not 2x6
>construction lumber). The Arcology might be able to get away with a
>slightly less hefty steel endoskeleton, as the pyramid design removes some
>of the lateral stability issues a skyscraper typically faces. However,
>the Arc has a great deal of weight to deal with, with all those stacked
>floors.
>I would say a minimum height of 4 meters per story, which fits with the
>other SR game mechanics nicely. (Read: falling rules) That gives us 13
>feet to play with, 9 for head room, and 4 for utility purposes. Now, the
>mall is another issue. I have yet to be in a mall with only 9 feet of
>clearance. I would count each floor of the mall as double floors (so 8
>meters/26 feet). And I would imagine that there are some areas with
>openings that run the entire height of the mall area. In any case, just
>divide the Arc's height by 4, and that should give you a realistic number
>of stories.

Given preferred construction techniques, this is true. However, a sky
scraper could be built with very little space between floors. It would be
hideously expensive, but it could be done. Maybe Renraku splurged and
built a building with 1-2 feet of clearance between floors :)

Probably not. I still think they just decided not to account for trolls.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
--
Message no. 7
From: uptoic@***********.net (Aethelwulf)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:48:21 -0600
> Or multiple the listed number of storeys to get the height, I think you'd
> need to add a couple to cover the extra height in the mall...etc
> and bear in
> mind that IIRC the first basement is actually above ground level on the
> sound side, IIRC(again) it holds the loading docks and things.
>
> You're also going to want to add two additional storeys where there are
> helipads, one for structural bracing and one to increase the clearance,
> after all the impression given is that the arc can be totally sealed so
> choppers would have to be able to fit inside. Same goes for the roof,
> although with only one maybe one and a half extra storeys, the weight of
> choppers is less of an issue here than the weight of rain water...
>
read never deal with a dragon, the helipads used in that novel are not
hanger like, so it is like a step in the zigurat shape.

but then again how many people pay attention to the novels? :P

Aethelwulf
Message no. 8
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:52:14 +0000
>From: "Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com>
>To prepare for an extended period of enclosure (which I doubt was the plan)
>they would have to have septic tanks, like at least a floor's worth.

One of the reasons to make the arc Self-Contained was in the case of serious
problems in the world outside (of course the other big reason was to create
a captive market...) the arc is totally self contained and self sufficient.
The SCIRE could (and did) shut itself off from the outside world for extreme
periods of time, generations if nessecary IIRC.

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Message no. 9
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:57:51 +0000
>From: "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net>
>read never deal with a dragon, the helipads used in that novel are not
>hanger like, so it is like a step in the zigurat shape.

Looking at the picture in Renraku Arcology: Shutdown isn't much help but I
can't see any odd protrusions, remember that the roof holds helipads as well
is it possible that those are the ones used in the book?

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Message no. 10
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 06:04:08 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Lone Eagle wrote:

> >From: "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net>
> >read never deal with a dragon, the helipads used in that novel are not
> >hanger like, so it is like a step in the zigurat shape.
>
> Looking at the picture in Renraku Arcology: Shutdown isn't much help but I
> can't see any odd protrusions, remember that the roof holds helipads as well
> is it possible that those are the ones used in the book?
>

I'm fairly certain they were described as being part of the mid level pads
in the book, although it's been a long time since I read it.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:28:58 +0200
According to Dan Turek, on Fri, 20 Sep 2002 the word on the street was...

> To prepare for an extended period of enclosure (which I doubt was the
> plan) they would have to have septic tanks, like at least a floor's
> worth. Anyone have a favorite floor?

How about basement levels 13 through 15? (See Seattle Sourcebook, p. 55.)
But the thing I'm really wondering about is what floor the clone
replacement vats are on... ;)

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-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
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Message no. 12
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:44:11 -0400
Dan:
> > they would have to have septic tanks, like at least a floor's
> > worth. Anyone have a favorite floor?

Gurth:
>
>How about basement levels 13 through 15? (See Seattle Sourcebook, p. 55.)

So let's say B13 is raw sewage, B14 is chemicals for treatment and B15 is
where the processing is done, so usuable stuff can flow to B16 and down.

Doesn't sound like they are ready for an extended period of enclosure
(meaning no flushing waste to the Sound) to me without a floor for sewage
overflow. Reminds me of the Bill Cosby Moses sketch where God says he will
make it rain for 40 years to drown everyone, and Moses said "Hey, why not
for 40 days when all the sewers back up?"

>But the thing I'm really wondering about is what floor the clone
>replacement vats are on... ;)

What did Connie Connoiseur have to say? I'm sure you've gotten a personal
interview by now :)




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Message no. 13
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Arcology Floor Height [was: a digest number]
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:14:57 +0200
According to Dan Turek, on Sat, 21 Sep 2002 the word on the street was...

> Doesn't sound like they are ready for an extended period of enclosure
> (meaning no flushing waste to the Sound) to me without a floor for sewage
> overflow.

"How much waste that needs to be stored do the people inside produce?"
would be the first question. That is, waste that can't be recycled into
something else, and (due to the complete shut-off) can't be dumped, either.

Assuming the basements are not pyramid-shaped but are all the same size as
the ground floor, you've got 650 by 780 meters of space on each floor
(that's about 50 hectares -- to put this into perspective, you could hold a
hundred football matches there simultaneously...) times whatever height
there is between floor and ceiling, and minus the room taken up by walls
and the various bits of machinery needed to process all this stuff.

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