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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Area Effect Spells
Date: Wed Jan 9 10:55:01 2002
In so far as an area of effect combat spell will affect all valid targets in
its area of effect that the caster has LOS too, yes.

OTOH, would it be possible to design an area of effect combat spell with the
restricted target modifier of "enemies". Hey, if you take the spell design
rules literally, this would work. You'd get the -1 Drain TN modifier, _and_
you wouldn't manaball your friends! What a deal!
>>>>
In my campaign, I allowed them to create a stun ball spell that will not affect wearers of
a certain magic item. In this case a leopard pin which was designed under the unique
magic items rules. If you are wearing said pen then the modified stun ball does not
affect you. This allows them to put them on people under their protection and stun bad
guys with AOE spells at point blank range.

John
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Area Effect Spells
Date: Wed Jan 9 10:55:05 2002
In so far as an area of effect combat spell will affect all valid targets in
its area of effect that the caster has LOS too, yes.

OTOH, would it be possible to design an area of effect combat spell with the
restricted target modifier of "enemies". Hey, if you take the spell design
rules literally, this would work. You'd get the -1 Drain TN modifier, _and_
you wouldn't manaball your friends! What a deal!
>>>>
In my campaign, I allowed them to create a stun ball spell that will not affect wearers of
a certain magic item. In this case a leopard pin which was designed under the unique
magic items rules. If you are wearing said pen then the modified stun ball does not
affect you. This allows them to put them on people under their protection and stun bad
guys with AOE spells at point blank range.

John
Message no. 3
From: petto@****.se (Peter_Sjögren)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:33:16 +0200
Hi Everyone,

I'm a pretty new GM when it comes to SR, and I've encountered a small
problem. Maybe someone can help me out? One of my players have developed an
unhealthy fascination with area-effect spells. We had a short run last
night, and I noticed that I'm buggered if i can't find the rules for damage
rating dropoff. Can someone direct me to these? I'm not using Magic in the
shadows yet, if there's any rules for it there.

- Peter Sjögren
Message no. 4
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:53:59 +0100
On Apr 22, 2005, at 15:33, Peter Sjögren wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm a pretty new GM when it comes to SR, and I've encountered a small
> problem. Maybe someone can help me out? One of my players have
> developed an
> unhealthy fascination with area-effect spells. We had a short run last
> night, and I noticed that I'm buggered if i can't find the rules for
> damage
> rating dropoff. Can someone direct me to these? I'm not using Magic in
> the
> shadows yet, if there's any rules for it there.
>
> - Peter Sjögren

There is none. Area-effect spells do full damage within their AoE, and
nothing outside of it.
Note, however, that:
1) Spells affect everyone in their area of effect, friend or foe,
provided they're in line of sight (except from elemental manipulation
spells, that affect everyone period). Spells have no IFF; in fact,
/they affect the spellcaster too/ is she's in the AoE.
2) A spellcaster is always considered as having line-of-sight on
herself.
3) The "I close my left eye so that I don't see my friend in my
peripheral vision" trick doesn't work.
4) A spell's area of effect is a sphere of a /radius/ (not diameter)
equal to the caster's Magic attribute in meters. For a starting
character, that's a 6m radius. That's freakin' huge, especially inside
of a building. It can be reduced, but that increases the target number.
A lot.

Therefore, pay attention to the distances between the baddies, the
spellcaster and the other runners. Unless everyone else is a sniper,
there's bound to be some friendly fire, self-damage and collateral
damage.
Not to mention that AoE spells have a nasty drain, and that the number
of successes of a combat spell (or of any spell, I can't remember) is
capped by the Power at which it is cast.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 5
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:01:48 +0200
On Apr 22, 2005, at 16:53, Max Noel wrote:

>
> On Apr 22, 2005, at 15:33, Peter Sjögren wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I'm a pretty new GM when it comes to SR, and I've encountered a small
>> problem. Maybe someone can help me out? One of my players have
>> developed an
>> unhealthy fascination with area-effect spells. We had a short run last
>> night, and I noticed that I'm buggered if i can't find the rules for
>> damage
>> rating dropoff. Can someone direct me to these? I'm not using Magic
>> in the
>> shadows yet, if there's any rules for it there.
>>
>> - Peter Sjögren
>
> There is none. Area-effect spells do full damage within their AoE,
> and nothing outside of it.
> Note, however, that:
> 1) Spells affect everyone in their area of effect, friend or foe,
> provided they're in line of sight (except from elemental manipulation
> spells, that affect everyone period). Spells have no IFF; in fact,
> /they affect the spellcaster too/ is she's in the AoE.
>
Our group has some mages that specifically toss area of affect spells
into a group doing melee combat. Of course they dedicate dice for
shielding our party members to help ensure they do not suffer. :-)

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:14:31 +0200
According to Peter Sjögren, on 22-04-2005 16:33 the word on the street
was...

> I'm a pretty new GM when it comes to SR, and I've encountered a small
> problem. Maybe someone can help me out? One of my players have developed an
> unhealthy fascination with area-effect spells. We had a short run last
> night, and I noticed that I'm buggered if i can't find the rules for damage
> rating dropoff. Can someone direct me to these? I'm not using Magic in the
> shadows yet, if there's any rules for it there.

Damage from an area-effect spell does not drop off -- you roll your
Sorcery skill, and then use that one roll to stage up the damage against
everyone within the blast radius. (Each rolls their own resistance test,
and compares the result to your Sorcery skill roll to determine the damage.)

For explosive weapons, the weapon's stats will indicate by how much the
Power Level drops off per meter -- for example -1/m for offensive
grenades, -2/m for defensive, etc. However, magic does not work that way.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:16:12 +0200
According to Max Noel, on 22-04-2005 16:53 the word on the street was...

> 4) A spell's area of effect is a sphere of a /radius/ (not diameter)
> equal to the caster's Magic attribute in meters. For a starting
> character, that's a 6m radius. That's freakin' huge, especially inside
> of a building. It can be reduced, but that increases the target number.
> A lot.

It doesn't affect the TN at all, it reduces the number of dice you get
to roll: -1 die per extra meter of radius, or -2 dice per meter _less_.

> Therefore, pay attention to the distances between the baddies, the
> spellcaster and the other runners.

Definitely :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: toxicspirit@*****.com (Fortune)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:29:40 +1000
According to Wild Cat the word on the street was...

> 4) A spell's area of effect is a sphere of a /radius/ (not diameter)
> equal to the caster's Magic attribute in meters. For a starting
> character, that's a 6m radius. That's freakin' huge, especially inside
> of a building. It can be reduced, but that increases the target number.
> A lot.

One small correction ... Increasing or decreasing the Area Effect of a
spell is done by voluntarily removing dice from the Spellcasting test,
and does not increase the Target Number.
Message no. 9
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:58:37 -0400
On 4/22/05, Scott Harrison <scott@**********.com> wrote:

> >
> Our group has some mages that specifically toss area of affect spells
> into a group doing melee combat. Of course they dedicate dice for
> shielding our party members to help ensure they do not suffer. :-)

I used to have a character that liked to pop off a sleep spell at the
beginning of combat, when the other guys were at the other end of the
hallway or something - anybody planning on melee would hold their
actions, whoever had a rangefinder would use a free action to call out
the distance if it was less than 6 meters, etc. 2S stun for an
effective level-8 ('twas exclusive) AoE spell was nothing for a mage
with high Will, lots of Sorcery Pool, and foci *g* Rather
effective....

"You get a bit of a headache, but the lone security guard still on his
feet quickly surrenders as his pals slump to the floor unconcious and
the rest of you start bounding forward..."

Even if they managed to stay awake, there was no way they were going
to be able to resist it entirely, so at the very least they'd be at a
disadvantage due to target numbers.

IMHO, AoE spells that do physical damage are just idiotic lol... sure,
a Fireball is flashy, but simply knocking 'em out is a whole lot
easier on the mind, plus you don't piss off their bosses quite so much
8-}

Kevin
Message no. 10
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:00:38 -0700
Kevin McB wrote:
>
>
> IMHO, AoE spells that do physical damage are just idiotic
> lol... sure, a Fireball is flashy, but simply knocking 'em
> out is a whole lot easier on the mind, plus you don't piss
> off their bosses quite so much 8-}
>

Your group probably tries the door knob (to see if it's locked) before
setting an explosive charge, too, don't they?

[:

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
Message no. 11
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:13:34 -0400
On 4/22/05, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Kevin McB wrote:
> >
> >
> > IMHO, AoE spells that do physical damage are just idiotic
> > lol... sure, a Fireball is flashy, but simply knocking 'em
> > out is a whole lot easier on the mind, plus you don't piss
> > off their bosses quite so much 8-}
> >
>
> Your group probably tries the door knob (to see if it's locked) before
> setting an explosive charge, too, don't they?
>
> [:

One of the characters was a huge troll. We just let him knock *g*
Door? WHAT door?

Mind you, I had another character with Fireball and Hellblast (this
was back in SR2, I don't remember if the latter exists in SR3) Just
'cause *I* think they're stupid doesn't mean my CHARACTERS do *g* (He
also had Firewall, Fire Missile, Flameburst, Flamethrower, Ignite,
Flame Aura... there was a reason he originally went by "Pyro" *g*)

... He also carried a Family-Sized bottle of extra-strength Excedrin
and popped them like crazy... though generally, after one good ammo
cookoff, there was often a marked decrease in explosives carried by
any further opposition... 8-}

Kevin
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:31:24 +0200
According to Kevin McB, on 23-04-2005 00:58 the word on the street was...

> IMHO, AoE spells that do physical damage are just idiotic lol...

They do have a use, though: you can hit people hiding behind 100% cover
with them, whereas you can't with a combat spell.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 05:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Peter Sjögren, on 22-04-2005 16:33 the
> word on the street
> was...

>> Damage from an area-effect spell does not drop off
> -- you roll your
> Sorcery skill, and then use that one roll to stage
> up the damage against
> everyone within the blast radius. (Each rolls their
> own resistance test,
> and compares the result to your Sorcery skill roll
>> to determine the damage.)
>
> For explosive weapons, the weapon's stats will
> indicate by how much the
> Power Level drops off per meter -- for example -1/m
> for offensive
> grenades, -2/m for defensive, etc. However, magic
> does not work that way.

Is this the same for elemental manipulations? I bet it
is, or they'd lose out to mana-based spells too much.
If so, the best way to blow up a building could in
some cases be a ritual sending of a fireball spell due
to the lack of damage dropoff.

BTW, what are the rules for elemental manipulation
spells vs. hardened armour? Does the spell's damage
code have to exceed the armour level or be halved?

cheers,

Jan Jaap

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Message no. 14
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:53:51 +0100
On Apr 23, 2005, at 13:43, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> Is this the same for elemental manipulations? I bet it
> is, or they'd lose out to mana-based spells too much.
> If so, the best way to blow up a building could in
> some cases be a ritual sending of a fireball spell due
> to the lack of damage dropoff.

Indeed. Especially with the bogus demolitions rules of standard SR3 (I
don't remember exactly how much C-12 they require you to use to drop a
building, but IIRC it's in excess of several hundred kilograms).

> BTW, what are the rules for elemental manipulation
> spells vs. hardened armour? Does the spell's damage
> code have to exceed the armour level or be halved?

As far as I know, hardened armor (as in, gel packs and natural
hardened armor) doesn't halve the power of incoming attacks.
Vehicle armor, however, does. Unless you're using (cough) bronze
bullets, in which case you halve the armor rating, not the power. But
against spells it doesn't even work that way, there's an exception
case. And yet another when said spells are electricity-based elemental
manipulations (SR3 vehicle rules, already bad by themselves, become a
steaming pile of shit when it comes to interacting with the rest of the
world; I for one welcome the complete overhaul SR4 will bring to that
aspect of the game).
I don't have my books with me so I can't quote anything, but IIRC you
can find all of this in Rigger 3. Make sure you have some aspirin with
you before diving in, though.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:12:03 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on 23-04-2005 14:43 the word on the
street was...

> Is this the same for elemental manipulations?

Yes. They do the same damage throughout their "blast" radius.

> If so, the best way to blow up a building could in
> some cases be a ritual sending of a fireball spell due
> to the lack of damage dropoff.

If you can make it big enough, and with enough successes, sure. (A
single magician can probably already destroy a typical house, what with
the more or less standard 6-meter radius.)

> BTW, what are the rules for elemental manipulation
> spells vs. hardened armour? Does the spell's damage
> code have to exceed the armour level or be halved?

IIRC it's just as with firearms: if the Power Level (that is, the
spell's Force) doesn't exceed the target's hardened armor level, there
is no damage.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: petto@****.se (Peter_Sjögren)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:17:23 +0200
Thanks for your help, everyone. I'm pretty sure i've got the area-effect
rules pinned down now. Also, I agree that area-effect combat spells can be a
bit, well, dumb.. But they sure can be flashy! And style counts in the
shadows. ;)

-Peter Sjögren
Message no. 17
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:22:39 +0200
According to Peter Sjögren, on 29-04-2005 11:17 the word on the street
was...

> Thanks for your help, everyone. I'm pretty sure i've got the area-effect
> rules pinned down now. Also, I agree that area-effect combat spells can be a
> bit, well, dumb..

It's a matter of using the right tool for the job, IMHO. If you know
both Fireball and Manaball, you can pick the one that will work best
and/or be the easiest to use in any given situation -- you suspect
someone hiding behind a corner? Fireball a meter away from him. A group
of bad guys attacking your team mate in the middle of them? Manaball.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:06:46 -0700 (PDT)
I was just thinking...

Are there any elemental manipulation spells that can
permanently bring matter into existence, or at least
have it linger around? (Iceball, Earthball, Pokeball).
IJDHMBIFOM, so it's hard to check unless I dowload the
PDF's (be it the legal or illegal ones).

cheers,

Jan Jaap

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Message no. 19
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (Smoke)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:14:59 +1000
>have it linger around? (Iceball, Earthball, Pokeball).
>IJDHMBIFOM, so it's hard to check unless I dowload the
>PDF's (be it the legal or illegal ones).
>
>
IJDHMBIFOM:
1) I just don't have my books in front of me?
2) I'm Jan dude. Have Many Big Inferior Fun Oriented Munchies?
3) MOFIBMHDJI backwards!

Uh, as to answering your question... I typically assume that the
actually construct of the spell
vanishes/dissolves/crumbles/disintigrates/evaporates/whatever once the
spell is over, but the effects of the spell linger onwards. YMMV.

~Smoke
Message no. 20
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:00:08 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on 02-05-2005 00:06 the word on the
street was...

> Are there any elemental manipulation spells that can
> permanently bring matter into existence, or at least
> have it linger around? (Iceball, Earthball, Pokeball).

It should be possible to make such a spell, because manipulation spells
can be given the Permanent drain level modifier. However, you may want
to be careful to avoid the old Sustained DM kettle of fish...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 03:59:18 -0700 (PDT)
--- Smoke <nightgyr@*********.com.au> wrote:
>
> >have it linger around? (Iceball, Earthball,
> Pokeball).
> >IJDHMBIFOM, so it's hard to check unless I dowload
> the
> >PDF's (be it the legal or illegal ones).
> >
> >
> IJDHMBIFOM:
> 1) I just don't have my books in front of me?
> 2) I'm Jan dude. Have Many Big Inferior Fun Oriented
> Munchies?
> 3) MOFIBMHDJI backwards!

How hermeneutic. Well, it's the first one; I am too
boring to consider other interpretations right now.
You may however use the string as the input for a
random sentence generator, the words starting with the
letters within this string. Get back to me once you've
consciously iterated all the possible combinations and
we'll see if God's name is in there. I don't think so,
but maybe you can prove me wrong.

> Uh, as to answering your question... I typically
> assume that the
> actually construct of the spell
>
vanishes/dissolves/crumbles/disintigrates/evaporates/whatever
> once the
> spell is over, but the effects of the spell linger
> onwards. YMMV.

I am wondering whether there are spells that channel
matter. I.E.: "stream of magma" and that malarky.
Adding a permanence flag to that should be unnecessary
as effect and construct would be identical. This'd be
a nice way to encase a variety of flame-retardant bits
of matter.

cheers,

Jan Jaap

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Message no. 22
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 11:14:42 -0400
At 03:53 PM 4/22/2005 +0100, Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:

>4) A spell's area of effect is a sphere of a /radius/ (not diameter)
>equal to the caster's Magic attribute in meters. For a starting
>character, that's a 6m radius. That's freakin' huge, especially inside
>of a building. It can be reduced, but that increases the target number.
>A lot.

Did I ever tell you all about the Sorceress with a Power Focus 5 who
had Poltergeist in her spell list?

> Not to mention that AoE spells have a nasty drain, and that the number
>of successes of a combat spell (or of any spell, I can't remember) is
>capped by the Power at which it is cast.

I don't remember anything like that.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 23
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:23:07 -0700
Oh my! Lightning Ball is such an EVIL spell!

Seriously, a Force 10 Lightning Ball (some of my PCs are initiates, and so
was the NPC) can cause some serious hurt to characters. That, and it hits on
a 4? Ouch!

Here's the question, though. What sort of armor could you count against it?
All my players were coming up with oddball excuses for why armor piece x
should count against the power of the spell. I gave it to them, because I
hadn't realised exactly how evil the spell was, but really, what armor would
count against a BALL OF LIGHTNING? *sizzle*

[:

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
Message no. 24
From: westiex@********.net (Aramis)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:36:10 +1000
>
>
>
>> Not to mention that AoE spells have a nasty drain, and that the number
>>of successes of a combat spell (or of any spell, I can't remember) is
>>capped by the Power at which it is cast.
>>
>>
Does anyone have a quote and page number for that, from either the BBB
or MitS?

Aramis
Message no. 25
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:06:11 +0200
According to Zebulin, on 10-05-2005 03:23 the word on the street was...

> Here's the question, though. What sort of armor could you count against it?

Elemental manipulation spells are resisted with one-half impact armor
(p. 196, SR3). Page 52 of MITS has further guidelines about insulation
etc., but there are no hard and fast rules there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:09:37 +0200
According to Aramis, on 10-05-2005 03:36 the word on the street was...

>>> Not to mention that AoE spells have a nasty drain, and that the
>>> number of successes of a combat spell (or of any spell, I can't
>>> remember) is capped by the Power at which it is cast.
>
> Does anyone have a quote and page number for that, from either the BBB
> or MitS?

AFAIK, there is no such cap. About the only spells in SR3 that have such
a limit are unresisted ones; with the spells that the target gets to
roll against, the sky is the limit. I'll refer to the top left of page
111 of the SRII Grimoire here, as it still very much applies in SR3 as
well :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:29:55 +0100
At 02:23 AM 5/10/2005, Zebulin wrote:
>Seriously, a Force 10 Lightning Ball (some of my PCs are initiates, and so
>was the NPC) can cause some serious hurt to characters. That, and it hits on
>a 4? Ouch!

Remember that visibility modifiers still apply to that, if you can't see
the target you're still looking for 12s.

>Here's the question, though. What sort of armor could you count against it?
>All my players were coming up with oddball excuses for why armor piece x
>should count against the power of the spell. I gave it to them, because I
>hadn't realised exactly how evil the spell was, but really, what armor would
>count against a BALL OF LIGHTNING? *sizzle*

Anything which is nonconductive?
And I'd allow half impact... I can't remember whether the rules do...


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 28
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:42:39 +1000
> Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk>
>
> Remember that visibility modifiers still apply to that, if you can't see
> the target you're still looking for 12s.
>

I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
more-or-less like a grenade. 4's all round unless there's magical
interference. Otherwise there's basically no point to using them -
they're already much less effective in general than manaball, powerball
or stunball, and require higher drain. They need SOMETHING going for them.
Message no. 29
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:57:32 +0000
On 5/11/05, James Niall Zealey <james@****.uow.edu.au> wrote:
> > Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk>
> >
> > Remember that visibility modifiers still apply to that, if you can't see
> > the target you're still looking for 12s.
> >
>
> I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
> more-or-less like a grenade. 4's all round unless there's magical
> interference. Otherwise there's basically no point to using them -
> they're already much less effective in general than manaball, powerball
> or stunball, and require higher drain. They need SOMETHING going for them.

Well, you could always throw a fireball near those huge thanks of
flammable chemicals that always appear in industrial compounds and get
some nice secondary explosions.


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 30
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:09:04 +0200
According to James Niall Zealey, on 12-05-2005 01:42 the word on the
street was...

> I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
> more-or-less like a grenade. 4's all round unless there's magical
> interference. Otherwise there's basically no point to using them -
> they're already much less effective in general than manaball, powerball
> or stunball, and require higher drain. They need SOMETHING going for them.

They do: they need to be staged down all the way by the target.
Powerball at Deadly damage with one success means the target only needs
one as well in order to suffer no damage at all, but with a Fireball
under the same conditions, the target will need 9 successes to escape
unharmed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:32:34 +0100
At 12:42 AM 5/12/2005, James Niall Zealey wrote:
>>Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk>
>>Remember that visibility modifiers still apply to that, if you can't see
>>the target you're still looking for 12s.
>I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
>more-or-less like a grenade. 4's all round unless there's magical
>interference. Otherwise there's basically no point to using them -
>they're already much less effective in general than manaball, powerball
>or stunball, and require higher drain. They need SOMETHING going for them.

A manaball can't even hit someone you can't see so...
Plus they're real and visible, intimidating someone by throwing a low drain
manabolt at something isn't going to have an effect, throw a flamethrower
and they have something they can see.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--) m- w
s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+
Message no. 32
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:49:53 -0700
On Thu, 12 May 2005 11:09:04 +0200
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to James Niall Zealey, on 12-05-2005 01:42 the word on the street
> was...
>
> > I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
> > more-or-less like a grenade. ...
>
> Powerball at Deadly damage with one success means the target only needs one
as well in order to suffer no damage at all, ...
> --
Huh? We've been staging combat spells down level by level. Where does it say
that?
--Anders
Message no. 33
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:36:26 -0600
On 5/12/05, Anders Swenson <anders@**********.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 11:09:04 +0200
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> > According to James Niall Zealey, on 12-05-2005 01:42 the word on the street
> > was...
> >
> > > I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
> > > more-or-less like a grenade. ...
> >
> > Powerball at Deadly damage with one success means the target only needs one
> as well in order to suffer no damage at all, ...
> > --
> Huh? We've been staging combat spells down level by level. Where does it say
> that?

Oh no... How did you guys miss that one? :) It's one of the rules
that frustrated the spellcasters in my games the most. That's why
every spellcaster had a gun ;)

I can't remember exactly where it is (and I'm sure Gurth will quote it
pdq), but it is in there. In the general description of Combat Spells
before the specific combat spells are listed I think.

Please note that the manifested spells (flamethrower, etc) are staged
down normally, since they are creating actual matter/energy and
tossing it at the target.

--
-Graht
Message no. 34
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:38:26 +0200
On May 12, 2005, at 18:49, Anders Swenson wrote:

> On Thu, 12 May 2005 11:09:04 +0200
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>> According to James Niall Zealey, on 12-05-2005 01:42 the word on the
>> street
>> was...
>>
>>> I was pretty sure that the elemental manipulation spells worked
>>> more-or-less like a grenade. ...
>>
>> Powerball at Deadly damage with one success means the target only
>> needs one
> as well in order to suffer no damage at all, ...
>> --
> Huh? We've been staging combat spells down level by level. Where does
> it say
> that?

SR3 page 183. Spell Effect.

<SNIP>
If there is a Spell Resistance Test, the caster’s successes are
compared to the successes generated by the target. If the target
generated the same number or more successes, the spell does not affect
the target.
<SNIP>

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 35
From: frontendchaos@*****.com (Jim Montgomery)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:48:43 -0400
> > Huh? We've been staging combat spells down level by level. Where does
> > it say
> > that?
>
> SR3 page 183. Spell Effect.
>
> <SNIP>
> If there is a Spell Resistance Test, the caster's successes are
> compared to the successes generated by the target. If the target
> generated the same number or more successes, the spell does not affect
> the target.
> <SNIP>

I was making the same mistake, doh.

Jim
Message no. 36
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:31:24 -0400
At 01:38 PM 5/12/2005, Scott Harrison wrote:
>If there is a Spell Resistance Test, the caster’s successes are
compared
>to the successes generated by the target. If the target generated the same
>number or more successes, the spell does not affect the target.

The key distinction to make here is the difference between a Spell
Resistance Test and a Damage Resistance Test.

For a combat spell, you're making a Spell Resistance Test, an specific-case
Opposed Test based on Force and an attribute. You are directly resisting
the magician's spellcasting effort. If there is nobody in the area for the
caster to target, the spell cannot even be cast.

For an elemental manipulation spell, the caster is making a test to
successfully cast the spell (hence the fixed TN). This Sorcery Test by the
mage is followed by a Damage Resistance Test (which includes the effects of
armor). While the results of the two test are /compared/, it is /not/ an
Opposed Test.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 37
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:55:19 +0200
According to Anders Swenson, on 12-05-2005 18:49 the word on the street
was...

> Huh? We've been staging combat spells down level by level. Where does it say
> that?

See under Spell Effect on page 183 of SR3. Basically, those paragraphs
say that if the target equals or exceeds the caster's successes, nothing
happens, with an exception for elemental manipulation spells, because
there the spell resistance test is in truth a damage resistance test
(meaning it needs to be staged down all the way to nothing).

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:37:08 -0400
At 06:23 PM 5/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>Oh my! Lightning Ball is such an EVIL spell!
>
>Seriously, a Force 10 Lightning Ball (some of my PCs are initiates, and so
>was the NPC) can cause some serious hurt to characters. That, and it hits on
>a 4? Ouch!
>
>Here's the question, though. What sort of armor could you count against it?
>All my players were coming up with oddball excuses for why armor piece x
>should count against the power of the spell. I gave it to them, because I
>hadn't realised exactly how evil the spell was, but really, what armor would
>count against a BALL OF LIGHTNING? *sizzle*

My combat mage, Zeus, LOVED his lightning ball spell (called "EMP" for
the very reason you listed). He once took out a tank of Orks with it
on a trip in Germany.


--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 39
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:38:19 -0400
At 11:06 AM 5/10/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>According to Zebulin, on 10-05-2005 03:23 the word on the street was...

>> Here's the question, though. What sort of armor could you count against it?
>
>Elemental manipulation spells are resisted with one-half impact armor
>(p. 196, SR3). Page 52 of MITS has further guidelines about insulation
>etc., but there are no hard and fast rules there.

IIRC, you're only immune if you're grounded or levitating.

--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 40
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Area-effect spells
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:39:27 -0400
At 11:09 AM 5/10/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>According to Aramis, on 10-05-2005 03:36 the word on the street was...

>>>> Not to mention that AoE spells have a nasty drain, and that the
>>>> number of successes of a combat spell (or of any spell, I can't
>>>> remember) is capped by the Power at which it is cast.
>>
>> Does anyone have a quote and page number for that, from either the BBB
>> or MitS?
>
>AFAIK, there is no such cap. About the only spells in SR3 that have such
>a limit are unresisted ones; with the spells that the target gets to
>roll against, the sky is the limit. I'll refer to the top left of page
>111 of the SRII Grimoire here, as it still very much applies in SR3 as
>well :)

Perhaps he is thinking of the limit (which we always end up ignoring) of
success dice based on the caster's Magic rating?

--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/

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