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Message no. 1
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
Well, don't know if this has been discussed or not but
I have the feeling that the statistics for dragons,
especially great dragons are a little too lame. I
mean, a runner with a heavy pistol can easily kill a
normal dragon with one shot and if he has some heavy
weapon a great one with a simple full auto. You can
offcourse try to compensate by giving the dragon a
couple of barrier spells and the like, but according
to the novels and the theme of the game they are
supposed to be creatures of awesome power and the
stuff that you fight (if ever) only as a campaign
goal.
What do you say? If you agree with me maybe we can
find some new statistics for them that maybe can
become official (I remember an idea of treating them
as vehicles, quite a good one if I may say so).

====




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Message no. 2
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:31:50 -0500
On May 22, 2004, at 4:25 PM, Shiro BsquLadat wrote:

> Well, don't know if this has been discussed or not but
> I have the feeling that the statistics for dragons,
> especially great dragons are a little too lame. I
> mean, a runner with a heavy pistol can easily kill a
> normal dragon with one shot and if he has some heavy
> weapon a great one with a simple full auto. You can
> offcourse try to compensate by giving the dragon a
> couple of barrier spells and the like, but according
> to the novels and the theme of the game they are
> supposed to be creatures of awesome power and the
> stuff that you fight (if ever) only as a campaign
> goal.
> What do you say? If you agree with me maybe we can
> find some new statistics for them that maybe can
> become official (I remember an idea of treating them
> as vehicles, quite a good one if I may say so).
>
> ====
please bear in mind, not everything is stats, their magical abilities
dwarf that of anything else alive, not to mention they've got
centuries, perhaps millennia of experience and wisdom from which to
pull their choices from.....

stats don't necessarily mean anything at all.....
Message no. 3
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:56:46 -0700
<snip allegation that dragons are weak>

In my games, dragons don't have stats unless I plan on them getting killed.
On that note, I don't think that's ever even come up in the 12 years I've
been playing. Much like Harlequin and the Immortal Elves arc, if you give
something stats, the players will find a way to kill it.

On another note, something like a dragon isn't about stats. It's about
critter powers and magic. It's about the power of suggestion/persuasion
(whatever it's called) to get one of the characters to shoot the other
characters in the back. It's all about avoiding combat until it's absolutely
necessary.

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 4
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:11:13 +0200
Le 22 mai 2004, à 23:25, Shiro BsquLadat a écrit :

> Well, don't know if this has been discussed or not but
> I have the feeling that the statistics for dragons,
> especially great dragons are a little too lame. I
> mean, a runner with a heavy pistol can easily kill a
> normal dragon with one shot and if he has some heavy
> weapon a great one with a simple full auto. You can
> offcourse try to compensate by giving the dragon a
> couple of barrier spells and the like, but according
> to the novels and the theme of the game they are
> supposed to be creatures of awesome power and the
> stuff that you fight (if ever) only as a campaign
> goal.
> What do you say? If you agree with me maybe we can
> find some new statistics for them that maybe can
> become official (I remember an idea of treating them
> as vehicles, quite a good one if I may say so).

Two words: Twist Fate.
(Warning, possible spoilers, may cause your GM to hate me)
This is the single most dangerous power great dragons have. The one
that made me come to the conclusion that the only way to kill a great
dragon (bar atomic weapons and Thor strikes) is a FDDM network of naval
scale, long range weapons.
Remember how you can use your Karma pool to reroll failures, right?
Well with Twist Fate, great dragons can use it to make you reroll
*successes*. Is that dangerous enough now?

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 5
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:24:21 -0700
Max Noel wrote:
>
> Two words: Twist Fate.
> (Warning, possible spoilers, may cause your GM to hate me)
> This is the single most dangerous power great dragons
> have. The one that made me come to the conclusion that the
> only way to kill a great dragon (bar atomic weapons and Thor
> strikes) is a FDDM network of naval scale, long range weapons.
> Remember how you can use your Karma pool to reroll
> failures, right?
> Well with Twist Fate, great dragons can use it to make
> you reroll *successes*. Is that dangerous enough now?
>

Yes, evil, isn't it? *eGMg* And with as much karma as some dragons have, you
are pretty much guaranteed to not get any successes at all!

{:

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:37:00 +0200
According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Saturday 22 May 2004 23:25 the word on the
street was...

> Well, don't know if this has been discussed or not but
> I have the feeling that the statistics for dragons,
> especially great dragons are a little too lame. I
> mean, a runner with a heavy pistol can easily kill a
> normal dragon with one shot and if he has some heavy
> weapon a great one with a simple full auto.

Provided they hit with that full-autofire, of course :)

> What do you say?

I think that if you're using great dragons as "end of level" enemies to
fight, you might want to re-think the way your adventures go :) IMHO they
should be the big bad guys who pull the strings, but who you almost never
actually get to go up against face-to-face -- and if you do, they'll make
sure you're weak enough that you'll have a very hard time actually hurting
them. I would expect the average great dragon to have plenty of minions it
can put in the runners' way, giving them (the runners, that is) plenty of
opportunities to get killed or badly wounded before they ever get close to
the dragon -- and as we all know, it's not easy to fight when you're at +5
or +6 wound modifiers...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
--- Shiro BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
> Well, don't know if this has been discussed or not but I have the >
feeling that the statistics for dragons, especially great dragons >
are a little too lame. I mean, a runner with a heavy pistol can >
easily kill a normal dragon with one shot and if he has some heavy
> weapon a great one with a simple full auto. You can offcourse try >
to compensate by giving the dragon a couple of barrier spells and >
the like, but according to the novels and the theme of the game >
they are supposed to be creatures of awesome power and the
> stuff that you fight (if ever) only as a campaign goal. What do >
you say? If you agree with me maybe we can find some new >
statistics for them that maybe can become official (I remember an >
idea of treating them as vehicles, quite a good one if I may say >
so).

Treating dragons as vehicles? Why? Dragons already have Hardened
Armor of 8 (and that is just the average dragon). Throw in a Body of
12 and a Combat Pool of 11, and I begin to seriously wonder what sort
of pistols your PCs are packing that they can even scratch a dragon.
Bear in mind that a dragon's Karma Pool is typically TWICE that of
the PC's averge Karma Pool. 23 dice, TNs of 2 or 3, and multiple
rerolls... even a Roomsweeper loading EX slugs would have a hard time
scratching the dragon, let alone killing it.
Add to that the fact that a dragon has an Intelligence of 8, and ask
yourself why they are in a position where they are even forced to
soak up gunshots. They can strategize and play tricks with the best
of the best.
Meanwhile, a Great Dragon has Hardened Armor of 20, so even an
assault cannon (18D) CANNOT SCRATCH IT! (Hardened Armor is compared
to the base power of the weapon, ignoring Burst/Autofire
modifiers.)It does not even have to roll its Body (22) or any Combat
Pool (17). This is all based on Western Dragons, the ~weakest~ of
the three breeds.

I think that if you need stronger dragons to challenge your PCs, the
real problem is far more subtle than stats. This is not Trudgeons &
Flagons. Dragons do not slumber in caves waiting for PCs to "level
up" while killing all their random minions, preparing for the final
showdown by ignoring everything but their piles of gold. Lofwyr, for
example, has an entire megacorp budget. He can send everything in
the books after the PCs before he even has to think about getting off
the couch and facing them. Think maxed out cyberzombies. Think
Initiate 6+ mages. Think force 14 or 15 elementals. Think small
merc units (heavy ordinance, battletac, drones, milspec armor, 60+
members). There is a reason one of the core street adages in SR is
"Never Deal With A Dragon". Maybe your PCs have too much karma for
the game world you have them playing in. Maybe your PCs have too
many toys and not enough common sense. I don't know. Tell you what.
Sit down with the main book. Make up your own Western Great Dragon.
Remember that it has the entire recorded history of Earth to amass
wealth, wisdom, and paranoia. Throw it against the PCs in your game.
It will start about 10 years before it actually plans to show up and
gloat over their ruined lives/shattered bodies. That is if this is
an impetuous dragon, making a spur of the moment battle plan, for
strictly irrational aims of emotional one-ups-manship. After all the
resources of two or three small countries have been hurled at the
PCs, it will drop a 10-ton block of lead from a dozen or so
kilometers above their last hideout. Then it will send its favorite
duo of Force 20 Great Form Fire and Earth elementals to engulf the
(remains of the) entire city block. Then it will send in a trio of
Essence -6 cyberzombies into to bring what is left of the PCs out for
the bloating ceremony.
Finally... frustrated at GMs the world over for routinely disturbing
its rest with these munchkin/Monty Haul/cyberpunk-DnD amalgamations,
it will sic the IRS on them, taking all their gaming books to pay the
sudden large amount of back taxes they owe.

In conclusion: No, I do not think we need new stats for dragons.

======Korishinzo
--*sigh, shrug, grin, wander off*




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Message no. 8
From: danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:01:47 -0400
>From: Shiro BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com> Subject: Aren't dragons lame?

>I mean, a runner with a heavy pistol can easily kill a
normal dragon with one shot and if he has some heavy
weapon a great one with a simple full auto.

I thought dragons were vehicle scale with some hardened armor.

There are 2 adventures where it is expected for the players to fight a
dragon. In one they are even expected to defeat it.

Most critters are wimpy. A piasma doesn't last against SMG fire. Of course,
Humans are wimpier than that, it's their skills and equipment that make them
dangerous. I'm sure if the piasma had had the SMG and the PCs had no armor
it could've gone the other way. A dragon also has access to resources and
has a lot of skills not mentioned in their write-up.

But yes, anything with stats can/will get killed by a determined player.

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Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:50:34 +0200
According to D. T, on Monday 24 May 2004 21:01 the word on the street
was...

> Most critters are wimpy. A piasma doesn't last against SMG fire. Of
> course, Humans are wimpier than that, it's their skills and equipment
> that make them dangerous. I'm sure if the piasma had had the SMG and the
> PCs had no armor it could've gone the other way. A dragon also has
> access to resources and has a lot of skills not mentioned in their
> write-up.

Armor is what makes combat survivable in SR -- a high Body helps, but is
not as important as being able to get the TN down. Since most critters
don't have much armor, they don't stand up to weapons fire very well; the
critters that do have, say, 4 or more points of ballistic armor tend to be
a lot more dangerous than otherwise similar ones without.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 14:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
Well, of course I know that dragons, especially the
great ones are only intented for archvillainces and
puppet masters (and this is the way I play them to be)
but because shadowrun is a really well-thought game I
really think that they should also have the statistics
to back it up.
I remember one time that a dragon attacked us when we
played a published adventure (forget which) and was
killed in the first round by my rigger!! Talking of
disillusion of a major creature!
I just like them to be more powerfull on their own.
Their highest armor is 12 and if you shoot them with
APDS you cut it like butter and only a couple of
quickened bullet barriers can stop it and I have never
heard of the Twist Fate power, could you please tell
me where is this? And yes a character will bring 20+
successes on the attack roll so you can kiss that high
body rating bye-bye!
I like to have rules on these creatures and in general
because this way I feel totally honest to my players
and because I don't like the concept of the ultimate
character.I find it unreallistic and frankly unheroic
too.


====




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Message no. 11
From: Culain_lach_Feragh@*******.com (Tom Marsh)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:35:06 +0100
*snip*
> I remember one time that a dragon attacked us when we
> played a published adventure (forget which) and was
> killed in the first round by my rigger!! Talking of
> disillusion of a major creature!

My guess is that this is the Dragon Hunt adventure, which doesn't include a
greater dragon. Since this was published for SR1, a lot of the details for
that dragon would have to be updated IMO, for example, that dragon doesn't
have hardened armor as a critter power.

That's my two pence as to why it was so easy to kill.
Message no. 12
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (msde ShadowRN)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shiro BsquLadat
> Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 2:51 PM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Aren't dragons lame?
>
> I just like them to be more powerfull on their own.
> Their highest armor is 12 and if you shoot them with
> APDS you cut it like butter and only a couple of
> quickened bullet barriers can stop it and I have
never
> heard of the Twist Fate power, could you please tell
> me where is this? And yes a character will bring 20+
> successes on the attack roll so you can kiss that
high
> body rating bye-bye!

Characters running around with APDS and characters
getting 20+ successes
sound like the problem to me, not stats on the
dragons. I still don't
see how any character is going to get 20+ successes on
anything but TN 2
or 3, and a dragon is doing something wrong if he's
letting them line up
a shot like that. Dragons aren't powerful because
they can take a shot
from a tank and escape unscathed. They're pretty mean
in a fight, but
not indestructable.

I can think of 2 easy rememdies off the top of my
head.

1) If runners in your world run around getting 20+
successes firing
APDS ammo, then any great dragon is going to have the
resources to hire
people twice as good. This includes magicians
dedicated to sustaining
barrier spells around the dragon.

2) If you simply can't come up with competent dragon
bodyguards, just
make this incompetent dragon wear some clothing.
There's nothing
stopping a dragon from putting on armor. If your
characters can punch
through a force 8 or so barrier, armor equivalent to
what a character
wears (Even in a non-monty haul game, your *mage* will
frequently wear
4-5 points of ballistic), and then 12 points of
natural hardened armor
after that, then there is no published enemy in the
game that can stop
them short of a Horror.

Mark





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Message no. 13
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
--- Shiro BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
> Well, of course I know that dragons, especially the
> great ones are only intented for archvillainces and
> puppet masters (and this is the way I play them to be)
> but because shadowrun is a really well-thought game I
> really think that they should also have the statistics
> to back it up.
> I remember one time that a dragon attacked us when we
> played a published adventure (forget which) and was
> killed in the first round by my rigger!! Talking of
> disillusion of a major creature!
> I just like them to be more powerfull on their own.
> Their highest armor is 12 and if you shoot them with
> APDS you cut it like butter and only a couple of
> quickened bullet barriers can stop it and I have never
> heard of the Twist Fate power, could you please tell
> me where is this? And yes a character will bring 20+
> successes on the attack roll so you can kiss that high
> body rating bye-bye!
> I like to have rules on these creatures and in general
> because this way I feel totally honest to my players
> and because I don't like the concept of the ultimate
> character.I find it unreallistic and frankly unheroic
> too.

20+ successes on an Attack test?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I detect a hint of the true problem. It is not dragon stats which
are lame, but those of your PCs.

Scoring 20 successes in combat means a skill of at least 10! Then 10
pool dice. Then a lot of re-rolls. And a lot of TN modifiers so the
TN is really really low. Do you have any idea how beyond the pale
that sounds? Such stats are, in a word, ridiculous.

I do not need a fix for dragons because I don't have broken PCs. If
your PCs are really running around scoring 20+ successes easily,
maybe you ought to consider switching to Paladium games?

If you really want to make a dragon a nasty foe, remember that most
are mages of some power. With an Essence rating of up to 12, they
can also have a magic rating of up to 12. With Charisma and
Willpower of 8+, they can have quite a few scary elementals running
around. And some serious anchored/quickened spells. And then there
is the fact that dragons have all sorts of money. So they can hire
shadowrunners as good as the PCs to run interference. You find me
any shadowrunner that can shrug off a Force 9 or 10 Manabolt, with a
Sorcery of 8+ and a spell pool of 8+ behind it. Or wrestle a half
dozen Force 8+ elementals. All while dodging bullets fired their way
by guys with APDS ammo, 20+ successes, and a dragon's bankroll to
spend.

Seriously, I don't think it is the dragon's stats that are lame. The
environment you are using them in, on the other hand, may be just
that.

======Korishinzo
--skills and combat pools of 10+ each? what is that, about 500
karma, undiversified?




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Message no. 14
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 01:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> 20+ successes on an Attack
> test?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Welcome to real life!

> I detect a hint of the true problem. It is not
> dragon stats which
> are lame, but those of your PCs.
>
> Scoring 20 successes in combat means a skill of at
> least 10! Then 10
> pool dice. Then a lot of re-rolls. And a lot of TN
> modifiers so the
> TN is really really low. Do you have any idea how
> beyond the pale
> that sounds? Such stats are, in a word, ridiculous.
You obviously haven't played in our campaigns or read
the rules carefully!This can really happen!
> I do not need a fix for dragons because I don't have
> broken PCs.
Broken PCs? Everything by the book and let me tell you
that they still challedged by the opposition who uses
a thing called TACTICS.
> If you really want to make a dragon a nasty foe,
> remember that most
> are mages of some power. With an Essence rating of
> up to 12, they
> can also have a magic rating of up to 12. With
> Charisma and
> Willpower of 8+, they can have quite a few scary
> elementals running
> around. And some serious anchored/quickened spells.
> And then there
> is the fact that dragons have all sorts of money.
> So they can hire
> shadowrunners as good as the PCs to run
> interference. You find me
> any shadowrunner that can shrug off a Force 9 or 10
> Manabolt, with a
> Sorcery of 8+ and a spell pool of 8+ behind it. Or
> wrestle a half
> dozen Force 8+ elementals. All while dodging
> bullets fired their way
> by guys with APDS ammo, 20+ successes, and a
> dragon's bankroll to
> spend.
Obviously, but like I explanded earlier this is not
the point of the post.The point is a dragon by himself
and my opinion of his stats.
> Seriously, I don't think it is the dragon's stats
> that are lame. The
> environment you are using them in, on the other
> hand, may be just
> that.
Boy do I want to have you in one of my
campaigns!Combat is the least of my players' worries!
> --skills and combat pools of 10+ each? what is
> that, about 500
> karma, undiversified?
no, below 50 and tactics.You do the math!Or are still
playing only with the basic rulebook and your
shadowruns look like the illustrations?

Ok, to get this over with, thanks everyone for your
posts, they really gave me food for thought.

====




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Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 10:50:09 +0200
According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Sunday 30 May 2004 10:42 the word on the
street was...

> > 20+ successes on an Attack
> > test?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
>
> Welcome to real life!

Uhh... I have to agree with Kori. If you have 50-Karma PCs that easily roll
20 successes, something is definitely out of the ordinary...

> You obviously haven't played in our campaigns or read
> the rules carefully!This can really happen!

Obviously, none of us have played in your campaigns :) Reading the rules
carefully, though, is something that I think many of us have done, and I
for one can't think of an easy way, accessible to everyone, that regularly
gets you 20+ successes unless you have a hideous number of dice to roll
against a pretty low TN.

> Broken PCs? Everything by the book and let me tell you
> that they still challedged by the opposition who uses
> a thing called TACTICS.

Proper tactics will beat uncoordinated individual actions or skills every
time, yes, but that doesn't affect how you score the 20+ successes :)

> Obviously, but like I explanded earlier this is not
> the point of the post.The point is a dragon by himself
> and my opinion of his stats.

Which is probably shaped by the stats of your PCs. Maybe it'd help if you
could post a few typical attribute and skill lists, plus give an idea of
the typical equipment, of the PCs in your game -- that'll help us
understand from what angle you're looking at all this.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 15:28:59 -0500
all I have to say about this whole thing bases from the 20+ successes
comment, which was stated that it'd take 10 skill and 10 combat
pool.....

as quoted from page 99 of the SR3 book,
"8+ Active
Only two words can describe your use of the skill: World Class.
Regarded as someone who defines the skill, you perform it perfectly;
you also grasp the nuances, adapt and refine it, as if you are
recreating the skill every time you use it.
Example: You are the best with a pistol, state-of-the-art. Your name
is feared in the streets."

what I'm getting at here is exactly what Kori was saying, if you've got
people with 10+ skills, you've got a problem, no it's not against the
rules, nor does it become difficult to do.... however, there should be
a limit in which you as the GM need to let things go.

as far as the comment about the karma cost...

assuming a quickness of 6, and also assuming (by the fact that you've
allowed such high skills) that they started at the max starting skill
of 6,
the skill improvement cost would be 68 Karma Points
(14 to 7 + 16 to 8 + 18 to 9 + 20 to 10).
if they had upped their attributes with cyber or bioware
the skill still bases off of the unmodified attribute
(if I understand the rule correctly) however, if the attribute had
been raised (assuming human) then you're looking at 14 points
to take it to a 7, (and the skill costs don't drop, that's still the
cost for
improving above the attribute but less than twice the attribute however,
the cost for the 7 if attribute is 7 is only going to be 11 instead of
14, thereby
making the cost for the total (assuming the attribute was raised to 7)
would be
79 karma points.

all in all what I'm trying to say is this....if you've got a group that
is put together like this.....
I'm glad I'm not in the munchkin group as that's the best way that I
can personally describe it, there isn't anything inherantly wrong with
that, and if it's the way you prefer to run your games, then by all
means, have fun doing so, but don't wonder why things in the game
aren't a challenge...this game is NOT Dungeons & Dragons, it's not made
to be a run around and kill things bigger and better every chance you
get so that you can be bigger and badder....
Message no. 17
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:09:48 +0200
From: "Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com>
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?

I agree Dragons are realy lame. In our campaing we use dragons as practise
before we go on to killing the Horrors.

In fact we have killed all of the great dragons, inkluding the yet unknown,
and are nearly finished with the Horrors.

By the way we also killed Harlequin, Ehran and all the other immortal elves.

So if you would all please just erase them from your rulebooks as they are
no longer needed.

Lars
Message no. 18
From: shane@**************.freeserve.co.uk (Shane Mclean)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:24:59 +0100
> So if you would all please just erase them from your rulebooks as they are
> no longer needed.

ROFL!

Nice...

Shane
Message no. 19
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 01:51:10 +0200
Le 30 mai 2004, à 22:28, Derek Hyde a écrit :

> assuming a quickness of 6, and also assuming (by the fact that you've
> allowed such high skills) that they started at the max starting skill
> of 6,
> the skill improvement cost would be 68 Karma Points
> (14 to 7 + 16 to 8 + 18 to 9 + 20 to 10).
> if they had upped their attributes with cyber or bioware
> the skill still bases off of the unmodified attribute
> (if I understand the rule correctly) however, if the attribute had
> been raised (assuming human) then you're looking at 14 points
> to take it to a 7, (and the skill costs don't drop, that's still the
> cost for
> improving above the attribute but less than twice the attribute
> however,
> the cost for the 7 if attribute is 7 is only going to be 11 instead of
> 14, thereby
> making the cost for the total (assuming the attribute was raised to 7)
> would be
> 79 karma points.

Little error there: for a human, it takes 21 Karma points (and
*requires GM approval*) to raise an attribute from 6 to 7, not 14.
But I'm just being nitpicky. Amen to the rest of your post.

And while I do not really appreciate dragons exactly *because* of that
whole "you can't do anything to us anyway" attitude (my motto is that
it's not what a character can do that makes him interesting, it's what
he *can't* do, how he overcomes his flaws and fights his inner demons
-- thus rendering dragons completely boring from my PoV), I have to
admit that if they want you to suffer, you *will* suffer. Even
(especially?) in a close-quarters battle, where the only way to
possibly harm a Great Dragon is a surprise attack through the use of a
FDDM network of naval-class weapons.
Twist fate is just that. Scary.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 20
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:41:36 -0500
> Little error there: for a human, it takes 21 Karma points (and
> *requires GM approval*) to raise an attribute from 6 to 7, not 14.
> But I'm just being nitpicky. Amen to the rest of your post.
>
can you clarify that one for me? the book just said that it was twice
the number going to provided it's below the racial max....racial max
for humans is 9 the way I read the chart...but please, clarify for me
if I'm misinterpreting it...

Derek
Message no. 21
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
> > Little error there: for a human, it takes 21 Karma points (and
> > *requires GM approval*) to raise an attribute from 6 to 7, not 14.
> > But I'm just being nitpicky. Amen to the rest of your post.
> >
> can you clarify that one for me? the book just said that it was twice

> the number going to provided it's below the racial max....racial max
> for humans is 9 the way I read the chart...but please, clarify for me

> if I'm misinterpreting it...

There's two racial maximums. Using humans for an example, and leaving
edges, cyberware, phyad powers, and spells out of the equation...
There's the racial maximum of 6, which a human can't exceed as a
starting character. Then, there's the racial maximum of 9, which a
human cannot exceed no matter how much karma they throw at the problem.

Think of it as a soft cap and a hard cap. When spending karma to raise
attributes, we always said that raising past 6 required triple points
(the 21). We also never required GM approval, because anyone who
wanted
to spend 21 karma raising an attribute to 7, by definition, generally
wasn't a munchkin.





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Message no. 22
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 21:46:27 -0700 (PDT)
> And while I do not really appreciate dragons exactly *because* of
> that whole "you can't do anything to us anyway" attitude (my motto
> is that it's not what a character can do that makes him >
interesting, it's what he *can't* do, how he overcomes his flaws >
and fights his inner demons -- thus rendering dragons completely >
boring from my PoV), I have to admit that if they want you to >
suffer, you *will* suffer. Even (especially?) in a close-quarters >
battle, where the only way to possibly harm a Great Dragon is a >
surprise attack through the use of a FDDM network of naval-class >
weapons. Twist fate is just that. Scary.

I think the point is, you should not be pitting Great Dragons and PCs
against each other in close combat, any more than you pit the Board
of Directors of a megacorp against PCs in a firefight (although that
would be a very brief, distracting little bloodbath... Dogma anyone?)
I have always treated the stats for dragons found in SR sourcebooks
as those of young dragons, barely mature, operating as much on
instinct as ration. Why? Because no dragon that survives this stage
of life (in my games) even bothers to get into close combat. Ever.
Since 1989, when I purchased a slim harcover book, and ran my very
first SR1 game, using all the 6-sider scrounged from my D&D dice
collection, my collection of boardgames, and even a coupleof Yahtzee
sets, I have pitted PCS against a dragon in combat exactly ONCE. The
battle lasted 3 seconds. We were playing through a rather reworked
version of Dragon Hunt. The game was about a year old, and the PCs
had gained an average of 110 karma. The group's adept, one of the
few PCs left from the game's start, was a scary Grade 6 initiate,
with about 140 karma invested in his development. He and the dragon
squared off. They traded attack and counter attack. The adept (did
I mention he was scary... borderline munchkin in fact) suffered a
Moderate wound. The dragon suffered a Light. It then spent the next
two seconds on massive misdirection, chaos-generation, and escape.
After all, it had an Intelligence of 8. The PC's numbered 7. It did
the math, fled, and later used the corporate front it was hiding
behind to hire a very lethal hitwoman. She never did manage to kill
anyone, but the aftermath of her efforts forced the adept to retire
from running. The rest of the team fell apart soon after, caught
between some Aztechnology subsidiary and the Yakuza. All of them
died or fled Seattle for good, one all the way to Germany. The
dargon? He's still hiding on the heavily modified 27th, 28th, and
29th floors of a small corporate office building in Renton. The
company just broke into A level status. Mr. Lazarus, as the dragon's
Johnsons are all called, has hired many runners in my games since.
Oddly, they refuse to sit down at meets with obviouis adepts.

What makes dragons lame is players and gamemasters who think of them
in terms of AD&D. Shadowrun dragons are a different breed, just like
virtually every aspect of the game. That is, if it is run anything
like the game designers presented it all these years.

I hvae a solution for those of you who find SR dragons weak,
overpowered, silly, lame, or any other derogatory adjective. Change
the stats. Something like this:

<sarcasm>

Age Cat. Lngth Tail Wingspan Cleric Lvl Mage Lvl Breath Wpn
Hatchling x cm +x cm y cm 20 karma 20 karma 6L
Very Young x cm +x cm y cm 40 karma 40 karma 10L
etc
etc
etc
etc
Great Wyrm x cm! +x cm! y cm! 3000 karma 3000 karma 100D

</sarcasm>

One thing: Twist Fate is an Earthdawn power that has not made into
any SR supplements I have (Dragons of the Sixth World maybe?).

What makes dragons in SR interesting to me is precisely their
justifiable arrogance, their extreme intelligence, and their rather
alien mindset. They are not your average villains. A dragon can
outlive her enemies. Maybe it is because very few of my NPCs are the
"fight to the death" sort. Almost all of them will flee if things
aren't going well. Regroup. Make a new plan. Dragons, Horrors,
Immortal Elves, Megacorps, large Bug Hives... you don't "kill" these
enemies... you survive them. You don't win... you get away. A PC is
victorious against such an enemy if they manage to make bank and get
clear. Not because they waded in a killed/demolished everything in
their path. A perfect example is the book "Dead Air" (now I know
some of you don't care for SR novels, but taken with a grain if salt,
they are good flavor text). The protagonist of the story escapes the
wrath of Lofwyr. He does it at great personal cost. The victory is
bittersweet. And that is the only kind of victory you ever win
against the true arch-villains of a story. That is realistic, "real
life" if you will. The greatest roleplaying drama will occur the day
your group of PCs walk away from a bittersweet victory. Those are
the kind of moments that can define a game, and even a gaming group.
In all my years of GMing, it is the narrow esapes, the near misses,
and the hollow or bittersweet successes that my players talk about.
The memorable moments were those when I was at my most evil. When
the PCs suffered the most for their payoffs.

Take another look at dragons. Play them like real people, three
dimensional and dynamic. Give them the same motivations and
eccentricities you give other characters. They can form the center
of some great stories. In that role, they are not so lame. And
their stats become irrelevant.

======Korishinzo
--waxing rhapsodic about dragons... I think I need a shrink ;>




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Message no. 23
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 11:17:35 +0200
> I think the point is, you should not be pitting Great Dragons and PCs
> against each other in close combat[...]

Of course. My point is that dragons being described as completely
flawless entities (save for a little bit of arrogance here and there)
makes them kind of uninteresting to me. Compare the following:
- Damien Knight. Has little cash, but a plan that's brilliant enough
that a minute later, said cash has been used so effectively that he now
owns a megacorp.
- Lofwyr. Materializes out of nowhere with a huge lump of gold, uses it
to buy BMV.
...And you'll see what I mean. (and yes, I know Dunkelzahn provided
the initial funding for Knight, but Gavilan was the man with the plan)

Anyway, that's probably irrelevant to the current topic. I've recently
played through SotF and as a consequence of that I've OD'd on dragons.

> One thing: Twist Fate is an Earthdawn power that has not made into
> any SR supplements I have (Dragons of the Sixth World maybe?).

It is in Dot6W. And it ensures that if a dragon is aware of your PC's
presence, they won't be able to do anything to him. Ever.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 24
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 11:22:38 +0200
Le 31 mai 2004, à 02:41, Derek Hyde a écrit :

> can you clarify that one for me? the book just said that it was twice
> the number going to provided it's below the racial max....racial max
> for humans is 9 the way I read the chart...but please, clarify for me
> if I'm misinterpreting it...

Racial Max for humans is 6. Racial Modified Limit is equal to Racial
Max * 1.5 = 9. Raising attributes costs (New Rating * 2) if New Rating
<= Racial Max. Then, it costs (New Rating * 3) (*if* the GM allows it)
if Racial Max < New Rating <= Racial Modified Limit.
An attribute can't go above the Racial Modified Limit. The absolute
maximum for a human is 9. Keeping in mind that Dodger (and thus
probably FastJack too) has an Intelligence of 8.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 25
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:57:09 -0500
On May 31, 2004, at 4:22 AM, Max Noel wrote:

>
> Le 31 mai 2004, à 02:41, Derek Hyde a écrit :
>
>> can you clarify that one for me? the book just said that it was twice
>> the number going to provided it's below the racial max....racial max
>> for humans is 9 the way I read the chart...but please, clarify for me
>> if I'm misinterpreting it...
>
> Racial Max for humans is 6. Racial Modified Limit is equal to Racial
> Max * 1.5 = 9. Raising attributes costs (New Rating * 2) if New Rating
> <= Racial Max. Then, it costs (New Rating * 3) (*if* the GM allows it)
> if Racial Max < New Rating <= Racial Modified Limit.
> An attribute can't go above the Racial Modified Limit. The absolute
> maximum for a human is 9. Keeping in mind that Dodger (and thus
> probably FastJack too) has an Intelligence of 8.
>

thanks for the clarification on this point...
Message no. 26
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:58:09 +0200
<delurk>
On Sat, 29 May 2004 14:50:32 -0700 (PDT), Shiro BsquLadat
<shirogr@*****.com> wrote:

> Well, of course I know that dragons, especially the
> great ones are only intented for archvillainces and
> puppet masters (and this is the way I play them to be)
> but because shadowrun is a really well-thought game I
> really think that they should also have the statistics
> to back it up.

They have. Just take a look into the core rules. Or, if you have access to
it, Dragons of the Sixth World (my copy is on loan at the moment, so I
cannot check it right now).

> I remember one time that a dragon attacked us when we
> played a published adventure (forget which) and was
> killed in the first round by my rigger!! Talking of
> disillusion of a major creature!

A GM mistake. But there is still the need for proof. All dragons that were
killed in the SR metaplot or the novels, aren't proven to be dead, as
noone ever saw the dead body of a dragon.
Häßlich fell into the Pudget Sound in the trilogy by Robert N. Charette,
Nachtmeister fell into a greenhouse in Frankfurt, and a dragon, presumed
dead, has reappeared in the SOX (Europe) as a toxic dragon.

> I just like them to be more powerfull on their own.
> Their highest armor is 12 and if you shoot them with
> APDS you cut it like butter and only a couple of
> quickened bullet barriers can stop it

AFAIK, the dragon'S armor is counted as Vehicle Armor, so an APDS won'T do
it. But a SAM or on Air-to-air missile can kill a dragon.

> And yes a character will bring 20+
> successes on the attack roll so you can kiss that high
> body rating bye-bye!

Allow this little question: How did your characters get so powerful?
should they be as powerful as your statement suggests, they have all the
rights in the world to kill a Great Dragon.

> I like to have rules on these creatures and in general
> because this way I feel totally honest to my players
> and because I don't like the concept of the ultimate
> character.I find it unreallistic and frankly unheroic
> too.

The SR corebook gives you rules for dragons, as does Dragons of the Sixth
World (with a more detailed look into these critters habits).

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training
Message no. 27
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
--- Phillip Gawlowski <cmd_jackryan@***.net> wrote:
> They have. Just take a look into the core rules. Or,
> if you have access to
> it, Dragons of the Sixth World
I haven't DotSW but the basic stats in the core book
are not good at all.
> > I remember one time that a dragon attacked us when
> we
> > played a published adventure (forget which) and
> was
> > killed in the first round by my rigger!! Talking
> of
> > disillusion of a major creature!
>
> A GM mistake
No, he played it as the adventure said and it got
killed. Anyway he was not a great dragon and his stats
were laughable.I believe the adventure had something
to do with urbal brawl, I forget the title.

> AFAIK, the dragon'S armor is counted as Vehicle
> Armor,
if an errata hasn't got out or there is something in
the DotSW, dragon armor is just hardened, not vehicle.



====




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Message no. 28
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:29:06 +0200
According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Monday 07 June 2004 01:25 the word on the
street was...

> No, he played it as the adventure said and it got
> killed. Anyway he was not a great dragon and his stats
> were laughable.I believe the adventure had something
> to do with urbal brawl, I forget the title.

The adventure must have been A Killing Glare, then.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 07:51:16 -0600
>From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
>
>According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Monday 07 June 2004 01:25 the word on the
>street was...
>
> > No, he played it as the adventure said and it got
> > killed. Anyway he was not a great dragon and his stats
> > were laughable.I believe the adventure had something
> > to do with urbal brawl, I forget the title.
>
>The adventure must have been A Killing Glare, then.

<nod>

I ran into the same problem when I ran that adventure for my group. The
characters were in the urban brawl game, beating up on the bad guys, when
the dragon swooped in to scare them away. All of the PCs ran except for the
mage, who stood his ground inside one of the buildings and started lobbing
power bolts at the dragon. Before I knew it the dragon had taken a Serious
wound and the mage was barely scratched. In my game the dragon grabbed
his(her?) partner and flew away.

-Graht

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Message no. 30
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:58:38 +0200
According to David Buehrer, on Monday 07 June 2004 15:51 the word on the
street was...

> >The adventure must have been A Killing Glare, then.
>
> I ran into the same problem when I ran that adventure for my group. The
> characters were in the urban brawl game, beating up on the bad guys,
> when the dragon swooped in to scare them away. All of the PCs ran
> except for the mage, who stood his ground inside one of the buildings
> and started lobbing power bolts at the dragon. Before I knew it the
> dragon had taken a Serious wound and the mage was barely scratched. In
> my game the dragon grabbed his(her?) partner and flew away.

My players didn't even get that far when I ran that adventure a few weeks
ago. Everything went pretty much according to plan, until the urban brawl
game. The players see the bad guy on the trid, draw the correct
conclusion, and then decide not to intervene... *sigh*

I made sure to mention the Karma and payoff they didn't get, and they're
still struggling with just about all their contacts not _really_ wanting
to deal with them. They now realize they seriously screwed that one up :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 03:34:12 +0100
In article <200406071758.38056.gurth@******.nl>, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
writes
>My players didn't even get that far when I ran that adventure a few weeks
>ago. Everything went pretty much according to plan, until the urban brawl
>game. The players see the bad guy on the trid, draw the correct
>conclusion, and then decide not to intervene... *sigh*
>
>I made sure to mention the Karma and payoff they didn't get, and they're
>still struggling with just about all their contacts not _really_ wanting
>to deal with them. They now realize they seriously screwed that one up :)

Many years ago, I played "Divided Assets".

It was a boring run. Grab the kid. Hold the kid until given orders.
Transfer kid.

Yes, the boy was heavily tranquillised and fed from an IV. You want him
delivered alive and safe, or shot trying to escape?

There was some sort of sub-plot about his awful life? He'd never missed
a meal and was upset because his parents split up? He would have told
this, had he been awake to talk, to an eighteen-year-old Elf girl from
Tarislar whose parents were separately murdered before she was in her
teens, and who was still hunting the last of the police officers who'd
'arrested' her, cuffed her, thrown her in the back of the van and
gang-raped her when she was fourteen? ('cruising for Elfmeat' being an
occasional hobby of the Puyallup police: you need a SIN to register a
complaint, after all, so the SINless were fair game)


Why would any shadowrunner give the least good goddamn about that brat
and his story of divorcing woe?



Not a satisfactory adventure for anyone concerned, I have to admit.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 32
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:47:38 +0100
At 10:29 AM 6/7/2004, Gurth wrote:
>According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Monday 07 June 2004 01:25 the word on the
>street was...
> > were laughable.I believe the adventure had something
> > to do with urbal brawl, I forget the title.
>The adventure must have been A Killing Glare, then.

Perianwyr is the dragon in question, it should be noted that he has now
come of age and is now a Great Dragon. He cannot therefore have been killed.
However I fail to see how, even with a character who... I'll go into later,
they managed to kill him. He turns up IIRC to rescue Kyle Morgan in a
significantly built up area...
So why on earth, having seen the damage, didn't he just use his Hand of
God, blowing the weapon up in the one trick pony's hands, grab Kyle and fly
off using the buildings as cover?

Anyone who has a skill of 8 or more is World Class according to SR3, that
makes them of Olympic standard. That means they have to train on a more or
less daily basis. With his specialisation I would be charging his character
(what one ¥ per round standard is it?) at least 100¥ per week for a single
shot/semi-automatic weapon in ammunition costs at a range... As it appears
he's using a fully automatic weapon I'd increase that to 1000¥ per week for
ammunition and 5000¥ per month to cover the bribes necessary to use a
weapon fully automatic at a range outside the deep south (or five or six
times that to cover airfares and appropriate bribes to get both him and the
weapon over to the C.A.S., more if the character has (as I suspect is the
case) no S.I.N.)
It should also be noted that in order for a weapon to be eligible for
classification as a signature weapon, and therefore for the character to be
eligible to take a concentration, the character must have used that weapon
in preference to others for a substantial period of time, this character
doesn't seem to have been played for a significant amount of time. I would
also suspect that his (I'm assuming) attachment to the weapon hasn't been
tested... would he use this weapon (presumably assault rifle... although
given the min/maxing it's probably an Ingram Valiant) in preference to a
pistol on a run where it is noted that the security will pick up anything
larger and the 'runners must not get stopped by security, in preference to
a knife or monowire garrote on a 'run where the targets (one per character)
must be killed silently and simultaneously?


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

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Message no. 33
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:23:08 +0100
In article <6.1.0.6.0.20040609181251.01a1f8f0@www.wyrmtalk.co.uk>;, Lone
Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> writes
>As it appears he's using a fully automatic weapon I'd increase that to
>1000¥ per week for ammunition and 5000¥ per month to cover the bribes
>necessary to use a weapon fully automatic at a range outside the deep
>south (or five or six times that to cover airfares and appropriate
>bribes to get both him and the weapon over to the C.A.S., more if the
>character has (as I suspect is the case) no S.I.N.)

You think anyone notices automatic gunfire in Hell's Kitchen? :)


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 34
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Aren't dragons lame?
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:14:48 +0100
At 11:23 PM 6/10/2004, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>As it appears he's using a fully automatic weapon I'd increase that to
>>1000¥ per week for ammunition and 5000¥ per month to cover the bribes
>>necessary to use a weapon fully automatic at a range outside the deep
>>south (or five or six times that to cover airfares and appropriate bribes
>>to get both him and the weapon over to the C.A.S., more if the character
>>has (as I suspect is the case) no S.I.N.)
>
>You think anyone notices automatic gunfire in Hell's Kitchen? :)

No, but 1: the player has to come up with the idea, and this is someone
with ludicrous levels of concentrations...
2: Even if the player does think of it a: they have to contend with lava
and b: plinking may help but you get through a lot more ammo... hence I
impose the same cost anyway... if you want to be that much of a one trick
pony as that I'm going to make you pay for it; after all the jobs they're
going to get will pay very well if they're being hired for that level of
skill... Of course well paying jobs tend to be dangerous but... :D


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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