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Message no. 1
From: Bob Tockley <arkhams.asylum@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:58:59 +1100
I was talking to Tim Burke on the phone the other night and while
discussing various things the target numbers for dodging laser weapons came
up. Now, neither of us really felt 100% about the standard SR3 target
number of 4 plus modifiers, since it didn't really feel right that a laser
weapon was as easy to dodge as say, a light pistol.
I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret the rules as they're
written. If you choose to believe that the under SR3, the rules assume
that your character sees where the barrel is pointed and at the last minute
manages to avoid being there, then great, the target number being the same
works - but then inconsistencies begin to crop up with the dodging system.
Why for instance, wouldn't visual modifiers apply? Surely if you can't
see where the barrel's pointing you can't dodge it.
The only other way I could think of interpreting it is for the characters
to simply dodge through blind-luck. Doesn't really seem feasible for laser
weapons (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would
happen to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
attack... ).
Anyway, whaddaya all reckon? Send some feedback this way...

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:38:33 +0100
According to Bob Tockley, at 2:58 on 27 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> I was talking to Tim Burke on the phone the other night and while
> discussing various things the target numbers for dodging laser weapons came
> up. Now, neither of us really felt 100% about the standard SR3 target
> number of 4 plus modifiers, since it didn't really feel right that a laser
> weapon was as easy to dodge as say, a light pistol.

At long ranges, perhaps not. At close range, both come in at such a high
speed that it's practically instantaneous, so you're more dodging the gun
than the bullet.

> I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret the rules as they're
> written. If you choose to believe that the under SR3, the rules assume
> that your character sees where the barrel is pointed and at the last minute
> manages to avoid being there, then great, the target number being the same
> works - but then inconsistencies begin to crop up with the dodging system.

Yep, that's the way I interpret it.

> Why for instance, wouldn't visual modifiers apply? Surely if you can't
> see where the barrel's pointing you can't dodge it.

Makes sense. I guess this is a situation that FASA didn't take into
account for the dodging rules (or perhaps discarded as adding too many
modifiers) but it is a logical extension of the existing dodge rules. I
think I'll start using this...

> (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would happen
> to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
> attack... ).

People who can do this could save a lot of money on gas for their car...
:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 20:37:22 +1000
At 10:38 AM 10/26/98 +0100, you wrote:
>According to Bob Tockley, at 2:58 on 27 Oct 98, the word on the street was...
>
>> (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would happen
>> to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
>> attack... ).
>
>People who can do this could save a lot of money on gas for their car...
>--
>Gurth@******.nl

Just when I thought that we'd stumped them Arkham...

Tim Burke
ranger@********.com.au
#shadowrun: Manx

"Screw incubation into the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
when you can become made in the Brisbane Shadowrun Mafia."

(>) Manx 25/10/98 :)
Message no. 4
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 06:04:13 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:38:33 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>According to Bob Tockley, at 2:58 on 27 Oct 98, the word on the street
>was...

>> I was talking to Tim Burke on the phone the other night and while
>> discussing various things the target numbers for dodging laser weapons
came
>> up. Now, neither of us really felt 100% about the standard SR3 target
>> number of 4 plus modifiers, since it didn't really feel right that a
laser
>> weapon was as easy to dodge as say, a light pistol.

>At long ranges, perhaps not. At close range, both come in at such a high
>speed that it's practically instantaneous, so you're more dodging the
gun
>than the bullet.

But SR3 does not take range into account (sort of, the higher T# for the
attacker should mean you need fewer successes to dodge, thus it's easier
at long range). I think what happened is Mike & co decided to cross that
bridge when they came to it seeing as there is no Laser in the BBB3. I
suspect the Canon Companion will include special dodge rules for the
Laser. Just be glad it's a Single Pulse and not a constant
Beam-O-Destruction ... After all, what's 4+(Infinity/3)? (Why, 42. ;)

>> I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret the rules as
they're
>> written. If you choose to believe that the under SR3, the rules
assume
>> that your character sees where the barrel is pointed and at the last
minute
>> manages to avoid being there, then great, the target number being the
same
>> works - but then inconsistencies begin to crop up with the dodging
system.

>Yep, that's the way I interpret it.

>> Why for instance, wouldn't visual modifiers apply? Surely if you
can't
>> see where the barrel's pointing you can't dodge it.

>Makes sense. I guess this is a situation that FASA didn't take into
>account for the dodging rules (or perhaps discarded as adding too many
>modifiers) but it is a logical extension of the existing dodge rules. I
>think I'll start using this...

Okay, how about this as the revised Dodge rules:
Range Base Target #
Short 6
Medium 4
Long 3
Extreme 3
(For Lasers, always use Short Range)
(Range is what category the Target falls into in the gun's range)

Modifiers:
+1 per 3 bursts fired.
+1 per meter of shotgun spread at target's position.
+Wound Mods.
+Visibility Mods.

Idea: For cross-fire, you could try to combine the attack ratings
(Average powers and damage levels?) of all weapons used and average
successes (counting only those that got at least one success) and add up
the number of rounds fired by everybody (again counting only those that
got at least one success) to base the T# mod for burst/autofire. This
would be for laying down fire to catch a specific target, not for general
suppression fire ...

>> (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would
happen
>> to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
>> attack... ).

>People who can do this could save a lot of money on gas for their car...
>:)

Wouldn't this mean that such a person would have (relatively) negative
height?
And, if so, would such a person have to jump up in order to drop down?

If not, would such a person be reduced to less than the size of a Photon?
If so, would such a person still be affected by a Laser?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 5
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:23:08 -0500
Quoting Bob Tockley (arkhams.asylum@**.NET.AU):
> I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret the rules as they're
> written. If you choose to believe that the under SR3, the rules assume
> that your character sees where the barrel is pointed and at the last minute
> manages to avoid being there, then great, the target number being the same
> works - but then inconsistencies begin to crop up with the dodging system.

Unfortunately, assuming anything ELSE gets even worse. Dodging after
you hear the bullet is RIGHT out.

> Why for instance, wouldn't visual modifiers apply? Surely if you can't
> see where the barrel's pointing you can't dodge it.
> The only other way I could think of interpreting it is for the characters
> to simply dodge through blind-luck. Doesn't really seem feasible for laser
> weapons (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would
> happen to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
> attack... ).

Blind luck seems bad, yes, but no worse for a laser than anything
else. What, do you get less lucky when your opponent is rich? :)
Anyway, here's my opinion on this. You don't dodge 'where the barrel
is pointed', per se. That'd take to much time to figure out, and you'd get
shot. The perceptual task is more just 'he's going to shoot me'. Obviously,
you can't dodge attacks you don't know are coming, and THAT'S where I'd factor
in the visibility penalties...even if you're just a vague blurry outline,
as long as I know you're about to try to shoot me, I don't need to know where
you're pointing your gun, exactly. I just need to get the frag out of the way
and behind cover.
Now, THAT, IMHO, is a bigger problem. You don't just sidestep bullets,
you duck behind cover. That's what a dodge against a high-speed long-range
attack should mean, I feel. So, I'd base the difficulty on the availability
of nearby cover. Hmm. Okay, this is a first shot, and without much thought,
but maybe something like this:

Situation Dodge TN
--------- --------
With a single motion (ie, ducking
your head), you'll be behind total
cover. 2

With a single motion, you'll be
behind partial cover. 4

With a jump, a dive, or a few
steps, you'll be behind full cover. 4

With a jump, a dive, or a few
steps, you'll be behind partial cover. 6

With a single motion, you can drop
prone. (Of course, you'll have to stand
up later.) 6

You're in the middle of the open and
unwilling to drop prone, for whatever
reason. 8


Do those make sense to people? Regarding the thread that came
up some time ago about Athletics and dodging, I'd make Athletics complemetary
to any dodge test in the 'jump, dive, or a few steps' categories, to
represent rolls and other gymnastic undertakings.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 6
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:37:17 -0500
Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
> Okay, how about this as the revised Dodge rules:
> Range Base Target #
> Short 6
> Medium 4
> Long 3
> Extreme 3
> (For Lasers, always use Short Range)
> (Range is what category the Target falls into in the gun's range)

Hmm. This is a good idea, too, but I still personally like the
cover-based TNs better. They deal nicely with multiple attackers, also -
if the character successfully dodges, you know exactly which modifier to
give future attackers (full cover, partial cover, prone, running).

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 7
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:47:13 -0500
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Bob Tockley wrote:

-> I was talking to Tim Burke on the phone the other night and while
->discussing various things the target numbers for dodging laser weapons came
->up. Now, neither of us really felt 100% about the standard SR3 target
->number of 4 plus modifiers, since it didn't really feel right that a laser
->weapon was as easy to dodge as say, a light pistol.
-> I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret the rules as they're
->written. If you choose to believe that the under SR3, the rules assume
->that your character sees where the barrel is pointed and at the last minute
->manages to avoid being there, then great, the target number being the same
->works - but then inconsistencies begin to crop up with the dodging system.
-> Why for instance, wouldn't visual modifiers apply? Surely if you can't
->see where the barrel's pointing you can't dodge it.

I'm not sure about you campaign, but in mine the visual modifiers
DO apply. Because I run 'dodging' exactly as you say it: dodging isn't
moving out of the way of the bullet in time, it's making sure you're not
in the firing path of the weapon pointed at you (provided you can see it)
before it fires.

-> The only other way I could think of interpreting it is for the characters
->to simply dodge through blind-luck. Doesn't really seem feasible for laser
->weapons (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would
->happen to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
->attack... ).

The character melts away.... then you get to see how much cyber
they really had..... If you can find the melted slag of pieces... }:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:00:40 -0500
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

<wham snip>
->Okay, how about this as the revised Dodge rules:
->Range Base Target #
->Short 6
->Medium 4
->Long 3
->Extreme 3
->(For Lasers, always use Short Range)
->(Range is what category the Target falls into in the gun's range)

Now I see why they decided upon a base of 4. IMO, it's easier to
dodge at shorter ranges because you have a better view of where the gun is
pointing, whereas at longer ranges, it'd be harder to notice that detail
but you'd have a bit more time to react (not much, granted).

->Modifiers:
->+1 per 3 bursts fired.
->+1 per meter of shotgun spread at target's position.

You allow dodging shotgun spread? In my game, if the players are
not able to move beyond the outside of the spread in one initiative pass,
they can't dodge (they use their combat dice towards damage resistance
instead). And if they do dodge, it usually takes their next action
anyway. (Which is why hardened armor is handy against shotguns.)

->+Wound Mods.
->+Visibility Mods.

Visbility modifiers apply in my games to nearly every success
test. If you can't see your tools, how can you use them successfully on
the maglock? Good point?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 9
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:17:58 -0800
>->weapons (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would
>->happen to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
>->attack... ).

Someone moving at the speed of light has been converted into an enormous
quantity of photons, and dodging lasers is the least of their problems.

Matter cannot exist *at* the speed of light; electromagnetic energy (and
virtual force carriers, but lets not go there) exists *only* at the speed
of light.


--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 10
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:18:05 EST
In a message dated 10/26/1998 2:32:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
arkhams.asylum@**.NET.AU writes:

>
> Anyway, whaddaya all reckon? Send some feedback this way...
>
I snipped the question as to whether or not the target numbers/rules for
dodging a Laser were equal to standard ranged attacks. Our House Rule (yet
another thing to add to the general house rules page on HHH) is that dodging a
Laser (Energy) weapon is normally a "6", not a "4". Your reasons were
similar
to our own, but we just decided to remain simple yet affirmative (shrug).

-K
Message no. 11
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:47:19 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:00:40 -0500 Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
writes:
>On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

><wham snip>
>->Okay, how about this as the revised Dodge rules:
>->Range Base Target #
>->Short 6
>->Medium 4
>->Long 3
>->Extreme 3
>->(For Lasers, always use Short Range)
>->(Range is what category the Target falls into in the gun's range)

> Now I see why they decided upon a base of 4. IMO, it's easier
to
>dodge at shorter ranges because you have a better view of where the gun
is
>pointing, whereas at longer ranges, it'd be harder to notice that detail
>but you'd have a bit more time to react (not much, granted).

Well ... Sorta ... up close and personal it's easier to see gun but it's
harder to dodge it (Move 1 foot to the left means less at short range
than at Extreme range ...). Optimal doging range is Medium to Extreme
...

>->Modifiers:
>->+1 per 3 bursts fired.
>->+1 per meter of shotgun spread at target's position.

> You allow dodging shotgun spread?

Dodging of shotgun spread is cannon (no pun intended :).

>->+Wound Mods.
>->+Visibility Mods.

> Visbility modifiers apply in my games to nearly every success
>test. If you can't see your tools, how can you use them successfully on
>the maglock? Good point?

Well, yeah. It wasn't obvious whether or not visibility mods applied to
this ... part of the basis for this thread :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:40:29 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Tockley <arkhams.asylum@**.NET.AU>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 2:07 AM
Subject: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons


: I was talking to Tim Burke on the phone the other night and while
:discussing various things the target numbers for dodging laser weapons
came
:up. Now, neither of us really felt 100% about the standard SR3 target
:number of 4 plus modifiers, since it didn't really feel right that a
laser
:weapon was as easy to dodge as say, a light pistol.

I'll get to this later, but, IMO, a "4" seems fair, unless you wnat a
lazer to be inherently easier to use (like a "continuos" lazer, with its
concomient collatral damage...)

: I suppose it all boils down to how you interpret the rules as they're
:written. If you choose to believe that the under SR3, the rules assume
:that your character sees where the barrel is pointed and at the last
minute
:manages to avoid being there, then great, the target number being the
same
:works - but then inconsistencies begin to crop up with the dodging
system.
: Why for instance, wouldn't visual modifiers apply? Surely if you can't
:see where the barrel's pointing you can't dodge it.

The system used in SR3 is basically the one Rob Boyle GMed myself and
others with for year and a half of pretty heavy combat with a wide variety
of characters (and players), and was adpated from ones found on the net
that had been in use even longer. It also goes back to SR1 rather
nicely...
Our "in play" interpretation was that "dodging" represented
evasive
movements asside from running and going for cover. As such, knowing where
the attack comes from is less important than simply knowing you are being
attacked. And, in fact, the game effect (making smart / fast / gritty
folks harder to hit) is more to the point than the simulation of actual
"dodging". Most situations people pointed out that make doging easier
would make the attack HARDER, so "its in there" already. We did
ocasionaly add further penalties for restricted movement (on a ladder or
rope, in a tight hallway, laying down).
One dodge that did seem a little odd to me was when my (completely
naked) street samurai dodged a nearly pointblank assault cannon shot. Not
that that's odd (a big gun at close range is hard to bring on target if
the target is moving faster than the gun can turn)- what's silly is that
theres no listed "blast radius" for the assult cannon- youd think he'd
have had schrapnell all over his butt from the near miss!

: The only other way I could think of interpreting it is for the
characters
:to simply dodge through blind-luck. Doesn't really seem feasible for
laser
:weapons (which incidently led to an interesting question about what would
:happen to someone who moved at the speed of light to dodge the incoming
:attack... ).
: Anyway, whaddaya all reckon? Send some feedback this way...

It's the abilty to keep your ass down (willpower), you head on staight
(intellegence) and your feet moving (quickness). All of those genrally
mess with your ability to concentrate on offense, and hence it uses up
combat pool...
As for the laser; why should it be easier to keep trained on somebody
than a (light = easily aimed) pistol? As listed (for sr2, mind you), it
seems very much a "one hard punch" type weapon. In the Cannon Companion,
it might very much make sense to give it a "6 round burst" rate of fire
and a 10L (reduced for range) base damage code, if it is a pulsed laser (I
think it would be). Or they might do something completely new- I'd write
Mike if you think the dodge characteristics of the laser are a problem in
SR3. Since most pulsed lasers do more damage when held on target (or on
one spot) for longer, I could see, for example, each success reducing the
power by 1 as well as off-setting a success, but the dodge TN being 6.


Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:31:26 EST
In a message dated 98-10-27 15:02:05 EST, you write:

> One dodge that did seem a little odd to me was when my (completely
> naked) street samurai dodged a nearly pointblank assault cannon shot. Not
> that that's odd (a big gun at close range is hard to bring on target if
> the target is moving faster than the gun can turn)- what's silly is that
> theres no listed "blast radius" for the assult cannon- youd think he'd
> have had schrapnell all over his butt from the near miss!
>

Not neccecarily, Mongoose. What was the LOS like at the time? If you dodged
the attack so completely, basicly the guy missed totaly, and you wouldnt be in
the BR at all unless the round happened to have hit something else close by.

Star (Who thinks that is silly on the one hand not to keep track of where
bullets go that miss, but remembers that such things cause extra bookeeping,
which he HATES)
Message no. 14
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:36:59 -0600
:Well ... Sorta ... up close and personal it's easier to see gun but it's
:harder to dodge it (Move 1 foot to the left means less at short range
:than at Extreme range ...). Optimal doging range is Medium to Extreme

If you are very close, moving a foot means a greater angle is created
beween your location and your previous one- so its harder for the shooter
to correct aim for near targets that dodge. Ideal range for dodging is
less than the guns length!
A moving target is harder to hit at range because it moves more
between your firing and impact; hence, things are not so predictable as at
short range. Hence the higher TN to hit at range. Of course, "leading the
target" is not really required with a laser...

:> You allow dodging shotgun spread?
:
:Dodging of shotgun spread is cannon (no pun intended :).

SR shotgun spreads are ludicrously broad, IMO. IRL, you could (maybe)
get out of the way of all but the widest choke / sawed off type guns.

Another element of dodging that folks miss; faking out the shooter.
You don't need to see him to make your movement hard to predict; if he
aims left, and you go right, that's a dodge. Happens in "dodgeball" all
the time. <g>

Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:04:27 -0600
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:36:59 -0600 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>:Well ... Sorta ... up close and personal it's easier to see gun but
it's
>:harder to dodge it (Move 1 foot to the left means less at short range
>:than at Extreme range ...). Optimal doging range is Medium to Extreme

> If you are very close, moving a foot means a greater angle is
created
>beween your location and your previous one-

That's right ... However, what I meant was that your attacker has a
larger margin of error (measured in degrees, not feet in whatever
direction) the closer you are.

>so its harder for the shooter
>to correct aim for near targets that dodge. Ideal range for dodging is
>less than the guns length!

Actually ... Sort of ... Optimal dodging range is the tail end of the
gun's range. When the attacker puts the gun up against you, it's very
intimidating but it's also the easiest to deflect the gun and to disarm
the attacker. Aside from that, if you're skilled you can still counter
attack if you're within kicking distance of the gun. Beyond that, run
like hell! The more distance between you and your attacker, the better.
:)

> A moving target is harder to hit at range because it moves more
>between your firing and impact;

Not quite ... Check the muzzle velocities of RL guns and compare them to
SR ranges. If you start dodging after the gun is fired, it's too late.
I don't have any muzzle velocities handy so this is just IMO/AFAIK ... if
anyone has a velocities handy, we can confirm/disprove this ...

>hence, things are not so predictable as at
>short range. Hence the higher TN to hit at range.

Actually, I think the higher T# comes from 1) Margin of error (see above)
and 2) drop of the bullet due to gravity.

>Of course, "leading the
>target" is not really required with a laser...
<SNIP>

I think leading the target is more of a factor when dealing with faster
targets and longer ranges ... I don't think it's normally a factor in
person vrs person gunfights ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 16
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:48:06 -0500
>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:36:59 -0600 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
>...
>> A moving target is harder to hit at range because it moves more
>>between your firing and impact;
>
>Not quite ... Check the muzzle velocities of RL guns and compare them to
>SR ranges. If you start dodging after the gun is fired, it's too late.
>I don't have any muzzle velocities handy so this is just IMO/AFAIK ... if
>anyone has a velocities handy, we can confirm/disprove this ...
>
>>hence, things are not so predictable as at
>>short range. Hence the higher TN to hit at range.
>
>Actually, I think the higher T# comes from 1) Margin of error (see above)
>and 2) drop of the bullet due to gravity.
>
>>Of course, "leading the
>>target" is not really required with a laser...
><SNIP>
>
>I think leading the target is more of a factor when dealing with faster
>targets and longer ranges ... I don't think it's normally a factor in
>person vrs person gunfights ...
>
>--
>D. Ghost

Since you asked and it's right next to me.

Glock 17, 9x17mm, muzzle velocity 350m/s, muzzle energy 500J, HP

UZI, 9x19mm, muzzle velocity 400m/s, muzzle energy 637J, submachingun

M16A2, 5,56x45mm, muzzle velocity 945m/s, muzzle energy 1764J, asssault rifles

WA-2000, 7.62x66mm, muzzle velocity 980m/s, muzzle energy 5227J, sniper rifle

spas-12, 18,5x70mmR, muzzlevelocity 385m/s, muzzle energy 4032J, shotgun

Minimi, 5.56x45mm, muzzle velocity 925 m/s, muzzle energy 1691J, lmg

.50 M2HB, 12.7x99mm, mussle velocity 930m/s, muzzle energy 18539J, HMG

I tried to choose average weapons in each group.

Given the fact a world class sprinter can due 100m in roughly 10seconds
A quickness 8 person runs roughly 24m/3s or 8m/s without athletics.
An average joe Qu=4 runs roughly 12m/3s or 4m/s without athletics.

Assuming the combat took place at 20meter.
(Range/Muzzle velocity) = Time it takes bullet to hit.
(TimeXRunner speed) = distance you have to lead your target to hit same spot.

20m range 20m range 200m range 200m range
Average Olympic Average Olympic
Glock 0.22m 0.44m 2.2m 4.4m
UZI 0.20m 0.40m 2m 4m
M16A2 0.08m 0.16m 0.8m 1.6m
WA-2000 0.08m 0.16m 0.8m 1.6m
Spas-12 0.21m 0.42m 2.1m 4.2m
Minimi 0.09m 0.18m 0.9m 1.8m
.50 M2HB 0.09m 0.18m 0.9m 1.8m

2.54cm = 1 inch, so roughly 0.1m is 4 inches
roughly 3 ft 3inches to a meter

4m/s is roughly 14.4 km/hr or 9miles/hour

Now I'll guess the average person torso when looked at from the edge is
roughly 30cm. So assuming you aim for the center of the edge on body as
the person runs left to right you would miss at 20m with the glock, uzi, &
shotgun(assuming it was a slug) on an average person. For an olympic class
runner you would just graze the person.

So yes leading a running target is important at almost any range. But it
becomes even more important as the range increases.

Interesting side note, a car at 36mile/hour you have to lead by .88m to hit
a bullseye on it at 20 meters, or by 8.8m at 200m which is longer than the
car at those bigger ranges.

-
Lorden

ps. you did ask.
Message no. 17
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:21:50 -0600
:Not neccecarily, Mongoose. What was the LOS like at the time? If you
dodged
:the attack so completely, basicly the guy missed totaly, and you wouldnt
be in
:the BR at all unless the round happened to have hit something else close
by.


We were all in a clinical laboratory; they were trying to figure out
what to do with my zero-essence, soon to be dead, samurai / vampiric pawn.
Vamp Daddy gave me the psychic call, so I got up to go. Rigger is the
only one to beat my speed, so he goes for the one shot drop ("It's for
your own good"). I dodge, shell goes right into my troll doc buddy (GM
call- he was OK afterwords). Most trolls don't produce shrapnel, so I
guess it makes sense.
I'm outta there, joining the Vamps minions in the hall; ritual sorcery
ensues...

Is that funny enough to count as a "stupid runner" story?


Mongoose
Message no. 18
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:12:32 -0600
On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:48:06 -0500 westln@***.EDU writes:
>"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.com> wrote:
^^^Added in by me^^^
>>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:36:59 -0600 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
>>...
>>> A moving target is harder to hit at range because it moves more
>>>between your firing and impact;

>>Not quite ... Check the muzzle velocities of RL guns and compare them
to
>>SR ranges. If you start dodging after the gun is fired, it's too late.
>>I don't have any muzzle velocities handy so this is just IMO/AFAIK ...
if
>>anyone has a velocities handy, we can confirm/disprove this ...
<SNIP>

>Since you asked and it's right next to me.
>
>Glock 17, 9x17mm, muzzle velocity 350m/s, muzzle energy 500J, HP
>
>UZI, 9x19mm, muzzle velocity 400m/s, muzzle energy 637J, submachingun
>
>M16A2, 5,56x45mm, muzzle velocity 945m/s, muzzle energy 1764J,
>asssault rifles
>
>WA-2000, 7.62x66mm, muzzle velocity 980m/s, muzzle energy 5227J,
>sniper rifle
>
>spas-12, 18,5x70mmR, muzzlevelocity 385m/s, muzzle energy 4032J,
>shotgun
>
>Minimi, 5.56x45mm, muzzle velocity 925 m/s, muzzle energy 1691J, lmg
>
>.50 M2HB, 12.7x99mm, mussle velocity 930m/s, muzzle energy 18539J, HMG
>
>I tried to choose average weapons in each group.
>
>Given the fact a world class sprinter can due 100m in roughly
>10seconds
>A quickness 8 person runs roughly 24m/3s or 8m/s without athletics.
>An average joe Qu=4 runs roughly 12m/3s or 4m/s without athletics.
>
>Assuming the combat took place at 20meter.
>(Range/Muzzle velocity) = Time it takes bullet to hit.
>(TimeXRunner speed) = distance you have to lead your target to hit
>same spot.
>
> 20m range 20m range 200m range 200m
>range
> Average Olympic Average
>Olympic
>Glock 0.22m 0.44m 2.2m 4.4m
>UZI 0.20m 0.40m 2m 4m
>M16A2 0.08m 0.16m 0.8m 1.6m
>WA-2000 0.08m 0.16m 0.8m 1.6m
>Spas-12 0.21m 0.42m 2.1m 4.2m
>Minimi 0.09m 0.18m 0.9m 1.8m
>.50 M2HB 0.09m 0.18m 0.9m 1.8m
<SNIP>

The 20m column is more useful than the 200 m column (Who shoots a heavy
pistol out to 200m in SR?).

Okay let's assume the target has a Quickness of 6 and for simplicity's
sake/worst case scenario, only has one action per turn. That's a running
move of 6 meters per second.

Let's call a Glock a heavy Pistol. That puts the max range at 60 meters.
That's 0.17 seconds until impact. Our Target du jour can move 1.02
meters in that time.

An Uzi is a SMG so the max range would be 150. That's 0.375 seconds.
The target can move 2.25 meters.

Assault Rifles have a max range of 550 meter. That's 0.58 seconds. In
that time, the target can move 3.48 meters.

A Sniper Rifle has a range 1000 meter. That's 1.02 seconds, time enough
to move 6.12 meters.

A shotgun has a range of a 100 meters. That's 0.28 seconds. The target
has time to move 1.68 meters.

A LMG has a range of 800 meters for an airtime of 0.86 seconds. In that
time, the target can move 5.16 meters

A HMG has a range of 1500 for an airtime of 1.6 seconds. With the
longest hangtime, the HMG allows the target time to move 9.6 meters.

The point is with personal firearms (Heavy Pistols and SMGs) at "normal"
ranges (~20m), you don't really have time to move much ... (at 20m, the
Quickness 6 person would be able to move 0.057 meters before being hit by
the Glock or 0.05 meters before being hit by the Uzi). Only when you get
into the Extreme ranges of the heavier weapons does leading the target
become a concern (in SR :) ...

Thanks Lorden for posting these stats :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 19
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares MPIII and dodging weapons
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:46:26 -0600
>"Screw incubation into the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
>when you can become made in the Brisbane Shadowrun Mafia."


EWW! Eww! I'm italian! How do I apply for the Brisbane SR mafia??

(grin)

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972

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